The Anime / Manga Thread (MK2) | Beware Spoilers

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How's this for hyping the VN

I genuinely believe that Fate/Stay Night is the greatest work of literature yet written. It's certainly one of the most detailed and longest by word count, and no, most of that is not bloat (give me any paragraph and I'll explain why it is needed, for the most part). If I had it my way, it would be material in college courses. Now, I've started reading more literature this year just to prove myself wrong. Because there's a lot out there I haven't read and if I end up liking something even more, that'd be awesome. And I've read some really great things as a result. Things that stayed with me and that I dwelled upon well after the simple act of enjoying the read was over. You can see them in my sig.

That's the power of good literature, well, it's the power of any really smart art in any medium, but after a century really obsessed with quick thrills and sheer entertainment, there's really no more reliable way to get that specific fix than with good classic lit. And it's not for the details or the world building at all. Ray Bradbury listed three criteria in Fahrenheit 451 for fulfilling art, that is to say art that benefits you and uplifts you in the long term as opposed to entertainment which just fills the time you enjoy it for (and I'm not trying to shit on entertainment, but we have a lot of it available to us so it's not really an important thing to find and celebrate). Meaning; an artistic intention to get some sort of point or message across (what does heroism mean in the modern world). Leisure; the pacing and personal time to reflect upon the messages of the story (those "SoL" aspects of FSN give that pacing, allow the characters to grow and breathe, and are also reflections of the kinds of epics that FSN routinely draws influence from such as The Odyssey. Food and hospitality are just as important in those epics). Relatability; a grounding force that allows us to use the story's message in our own lives (for instance, we can't be superheroes, but the juxtaposition of the heroic question and major themes learning to treat women with respect is not coincidence).

FSN was yes, structured as a three-act story and any adaptation that is less going to come across as less. Less meaningful, less serious. People who never read the VN love F/Z and say it's more serious due to "adults"? No, they just want to watch entertainment where cool guys do cool guy stuff. And F/Z is kind of smart as well, so all in all it's a great show. But if they don't want to experience something where more broken characters struggle and finds ways to live with problems that might actually affect the reader's lives for the better, well, not everyone likes the same stuff. But it's their loss, and it's a pretty big one.

I read FSN almost 7 years ago and I still learn new things about it that I love. Part of that is because I've actually been retranslating it. The amount of research, detail, and work that has gone into this project of mine has even further shown me new things to love and appreciate, and given me somehow an even deeper connection with the book. There's nothing I've done in my life that I've felt better about.

Obv this is all opinion. My favorite book doesn't have to be anyone else's. Individuality is nice like that. But I want it to be understood why I like it, and why as is there is no way I could recommend either show, though one is amazing and the other is decent, to someone who hasn't read the VN. Incidentally, Jebus McAzn Amaura, I'd be willing to share my adaptation so far. It's a far better translation than the existing one and flows much nicer, but it's not nearly finished and with my current job I'm only writing about 1,000 words a day at best.
 
RODAN DavisWuhu

As for Davis second theory, it's not possible as there is no such thing as an "earlier" Archer, who would exist outside of time. The fact that he uses UBW and looks absurdly like Shirou in this show is likely because Nasu is not remotely perfect.

The first theory is correct, though it's simpler to say that Archers are kind of bullshit like that. As for him not being sensed, remember that this is both the second time he's done that in this exact location. Also Fate goes into how as a complete hack Shirou is very hard to sense by real mages, as Archer still kind of cheats all of his power this isn't really a stretch.

Honestly it's an 800,000 word epic and I'll admit that there are a few things about the climax of UBW that are iffy, but they don't really ruin a story that is predominately about theme and characters. The fact that FSN usually has a stranglehold on plot holes is just a bonus. Now let's all cross our fingers and pray that the ending we get next week is the True Ending and not the Rapier Ape Ending.
 
DavisWuhu said:
Fair enough. How about if I removed the part of the "earlier Archer"? The rest can standalone as Archer being summoned back and would still make sense (I added the different version of Archer to elaborate)

Again, neither theory is technically 100% correct since neither have been confirmed by Nasu nor the VN.
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Word of God don't mean shit. ESP coming from Nasu. If you can explain something reasonably using the contents of the work, then that's the explanation.
 
DavisWuhu said:
Alright fine. I'm still gonna stick to having two explanations, but I will modify my post to make the first sound more plausible.
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I wasn't replying to say that you can't have two theories. Just that it doesn't matter what isn't said by Nasu or what isn't made explicit.
 
another gripe with fsn, why did archer have to come back at all? wouldnt it have made logical sense for shirou to die for his ideals thus completing his character arc, instead of being saved by a random asspull.
 
i havent seen f/z, i was going in blind tbh - i feel a show should be able to stand on its own merits to be considered good. i dont care if the source material is amazing, doesnt mean i cant judge the show based off what i saw oO
 
Shirou is trapped in an unending cycle of becoming Archer and hating himself for his ideals. So if you think Archer coming back to save him is an asspull just for the sake of a happy ending, well... even now things are only going to get worse.

As well if you think it didn't really resolve Shirou's character arc... you're right! Cause his character arc is resolved over all three acts. If you feel like holding that against UBW, by all means go ahead, I've been saying that this whole time. Read the VN. UBW is occasionally very well made eye candy for VN readers, but it just does not stand on its own.

As for FSN being not as dark as F/Z... again, see above. Watch Heaven's Feel when it comes out. FSN is WAY more fucked up than F/Z. Almost every character gets totally screwed, and in general it looks back on our history of myth with a massive amount of cynicism. As well physical and mental pain are almost constant in the written work, as Shirou is generally either being wounded or in the process of recovering from injury. I rarely felt even UBW covered a fraction of that, the closest it got was when Shirou watches Ilya die and his discussion with Rin in the aftermath. Hell, we still have yet to see Bloodfort done justice... I mean man, fucking Bloodfort man.

The difference between the series seems to be summed up by Bluebeard. How can you really terrorize someone without giving them hope? F/SN is a LOT more like Magicka Madoka than F/Z. Madoka is full of fucked up shit, but it's also full of goodness and hope. It's the contrast that creates despair. Madoka was also deconstructive and was able to tell its story through children (something not uncommon in lit, To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye, Game of Thrones, etc). As Gen Urobuchi was already a huge fan of F/SN, it was hard not to see it in Madoka when I watched that. F/Z is more good as a prequel... it feels like an entirely logical extension of the story as if it was written and released at the same time, while at the same time knowing everything about how it ends did not prevent it from surprising us. But yeah, if you wanted to compare an Urobuchi story to F/SN, you'd be better off with Madoka.

Another big difference between the tv shows is that Gen Urobuchi directed F/Z himself, and he's amazing as a director of dark stuff. UBW is directed by some nobody. But the fault is probably also shared with Nasu, who wrote UBW in its entirety and made some pretty bad changes. I don't know if it's obvious but as a writer outside of the original F/SN I don't have a lot of faith in the guy, and the changes ranged from unneeded but nice, to total character assassination (peasant Saber).
 
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Reasons why UBW(second half maybe even end of first half) sucked

-final fight isnt very climatic (both of them)
-gilgamesh is stale, character wasnt really given justice
-shirous dialogue, character development and overall sticking to his ideals making zero sense (just because your correct doesnt mean your right? Unless this is a poor translation into english this line made me laugh in what was supposed to be a serious scene, among other things)
-peasant saber
-archer turning into houdini (this is more of a flaw of the VN)

Im sure theres things i missed but the show has just felt so flat these last couple of weeks . I think overall F/Z is better source for adaptation than FS/N due to the nature of FS/N. Note : I have read the VN, but never finished the heavens feel arc due to lack of interest.

In terms of other stuff wrapping up soon, Hibike! has been great and im suprisingly enough enjoying DanMachi aside from the hesti factor lol.

Pretty bummed out we dont have a part 4 adaptation of jojos confirmed by david productions, but they did such a grouse job over the last 3 parts i cant really complain!
 
Aight, time for the good ol knuckle crack

Asek said:
-final fight isnt very climatic (both of them)
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For all my problems with UBW I very much disagree. Both fights were pretty damn awesome, as was Archer's final scene. There's good stuff in UBW, just as a whole it's a lesser adaptation.

-shirous dialogue, character development and overall sticking to his ideals making zero sense (just because your correct doesnt mean your right? Unless this is a poor translation into english this line made me laugh in what was supposed to be a serious scene, among other things)
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The line in question refers to the difference between logical utilitarian right and idealistic moral right. It's not so much bad translation as much as you should be taking the time to think about it (which you have less time to do in a show, esp during an action scene).

And again Shirou's development isn't wrapped up, but it explained pretty well why Shirou stuck to his guns and was even able to convince and change Archer. "Because those ideals were beautiful". Shirou is an artist. He's constantly describing things in terms of objective beauty and he thinks heavily in metaphor. As Archer he's developed into a full-fledged poet. Shirou and Archer have the same facts but experience a difference in perspective. Shirou still sees beauty in the world while Archer is so jaded that he doesn't even remember that he was once so wide-eyed and hopeful.

F/SN is the portrait of a martyr as a young man. The victories earned are slim and at the price of one fool's life. Are the small victories in the world worth that sacrifice? That's the ultimate question of F/SN. Shirou's actions make perfect sense given this.

-archer turning into houdini (this is more of a flaw of the VN)
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Having now seen the episode in question, I'm reminded that any assertion that Archer showing up is an asspull to save Shirou is misdirected. Shirou had already won pretty decisively before Archer showed up. Nothing in the plot needed Gil to get sucked into the grail and try to drag Shirou down with him, if anything that's the asspull. But again, F/SN is a story heavy on character and theme. To put it plainly, Archer only shows up to have that final scene with Rin. And it's a fantastic fucking scene, so who can complain?

Im sure theres things i missed but the show has just felt so flat these last couple of weeks . I think overall F/Z is better source for adaptation than FS/N due to the nature of FS/N. Note : I have read the VN, but never finished the heavens feel arc due to lack of interest.
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F/Z may very well be more adaptable to TV. It's not 800,000 words. It's not as labyrinthine in its themes or as complex in its timeline, esp what with having just the one. And it's a lot less about what one character is thinking and feeling, something that is always hard to put into tv/film (i.e. Ned Stark the idiot vs. Ned Stark the meticulous thinker). But there was definitely room where they could have done better, both in overall format and in execution here and there.

I know firsthand too well that I can't get everyone to play a Japanese porno novel. So I'd have loved to be able to recommend a proper three part ufotable series, even if it wasn't quite the same experience. But we didn't get that. Oh well. At least I have good gif material for many avatars to come.
 
vonFiedler said:
Another big difference between the tv shows is that Gen Urobuchi directed F/Z himself, and he's amazing as a director of dark stuff. UBW is directed by some nobody. But the fault is probably also shared with Nasu, who wrote UBW in its entirety and made some pretty bad changes. I don't know if it's obvious but as a writer outside of the original F/SN I don't have a lot of faith in the guy, and the changes ranged from unneeded but nice, to total character assassination (peasant Saber).
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Butch is a writer, not a director. It's possible that he was more involved with F/Z's anime than Nasu was for UBW but MAL just credits them both as "original creator" so idk.

Speaking of Butch and Nasu, I'm mildly looking forward to Chaos Dragon, which is supposed to be based off a tabletop RPG session they had with some other writers
 
finished first half of F/SN UBW last night, current thoughts on the viewing order debate:

Probably the biggest advantage that someone who's watched F/Z has going into UBW (as opposed to someone whose first experience with Type-Moon is UBW) is knowing Kiritsugu's backstory and how that ends up affecting Shirou's development; knowing the significance of the ending of F/Z probably makes the first few episodes of UBW less confusing for anyone who's never read the VNs

There are other minor tidbits that F/Z watchers know during the first few episodes of UBW, notably Gilgamesh/Kirei's relationship, Saber's involvement in the 4th Holy Grail War and her Noble Phantasm, Sakura/Rin's relationship, Rin's development since her father's death, and how messed up the Matou family is in general

THAT BEING SAID, there are a great many things that UBW watchers will be anticipating if they watch Fate/Zero second - but the major problem with this viewing order is, obviously, that the end of Fate/Zero is spoiled to an extent. UBW watchers will know that Kirei, Gilgamesh, and Kiritsugu ultimately survive the Grail War, and that the ending of the war leads to the destruction of Fuyuki City. Other plot details are spoiled, too, such as Kariya failing to "save" Sakura from the Matous and Kiritsugu ultimately never returning to the Einzbern mansion.

The most pleasant difference between F/Z and F/SN for me has been the jump in visual quality, as Ufotable's animation in UBW is absolutely gorgeous (conversely, someone watching UBW first might be disappointed by F/Z's animation). Less pleasant is the shift in tone and the less-fleshed-out characters in UBW, which feels much more like a typical battle shounen compared to F/Z, which was markedly more solemn and darker all around. F/Z had fantastic character work, even in just the first 12 episodes, and so far UBW is not living up to its predecessor in that regard.

At the moment I'm going to flip-flop again and recommend that F/Z should be watched first if you're completely new to Type-Moon (like I am). I may change my opinion when I'm fully caught up with UBW, though.

I'd love to hear more thoughts from people more experienced with the Fate series than I am.
 
Jebus McAzn said:
spent the last week watching Shirobako off of the recommendation of a close friend and seeing it hyped up quite a bit on /r/anime (though there was very little discussion here while it was airing)

Shirobako is an anime about making anime and does SoL better than basically any other show I've seen so far; the other big ones I've seen are Shigatsu and Sakurasou (and I guess Nichijou / Gekkan Shoujo, if comedies count) but too often I find romcom SoL dramas to be weighed down by an unrealistic amount of melodrama and just... unrealistic situations in general

Shirobako, on the other hand, feels incredibly natural to the point where you never really lose immersion off of anything - plus the characters are incredibly well done, the plot is interesting, the animation is gorgeous, and the show is filled with references to anime pop culture. the last two episodes of the show make up one of the single most cathartic experiences I've ever had watching anime

the show is an easy 9.5/10 for me and that's just me being nitpicky about the OP/ED and one of the characters I didn't like

would highly recommend
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This is literally exactly what I did for the last week and I'd write the exact same post if I could. (Which I can, but I won't.)

TL;DR watch Shirobako. There's an OVA too, and another one on its way.
 
thoughts on this season's stuff since it's basically over

Grisaia: I enjoyed it, it would be a pretty lame show if I was taking it too seriously but it has a general comical undercurrent that I really dig. Might have to go back and read the VN once it's translated since it probably cut a lot of stuff.

Yamada-kun: ~90 chapters into 12 episodes isn't a good formula but the parts that weren't horribly rushed were actually really fun and it concluded nicely.

Euphonium: expected this to be boring since high school band club isn't a premise I find interesting but the drama is done well and the lead character is great, also looks pretty since it's Kyoani.

Ninja Slayer: this is basically a cheap flash animation that relies on really dumb comedy which is the sort of thing I'd expect to hate but it works somehow.

Punch Line: if you've read 999/Ever17 you know what to expect from this, relatively speaking

Yahari/Snafu s2: Despite the better art and Iroha being generally great, I didn't enjoy this nearly as much as I was expecting. Yukino got kind of tiring and it could have used a bit more comedy and there were some awkward jumps because they skipped over too much stuff (to the point where they animated stuff that hadn't been officially released). Still pretty good.

Dungeon: reasonably okay little harem. Reminds me of SAO if it didn't take itself too seriously.

Soma: This show came out of nowhere and is really really good so far, probably my favorite of the season. The weirdest part is that it's by JC Staff, who I usually have very little faith in. It's probably the best thing they've done in 5+ years, or maybe ever.

Seraph of the End: kinda bad edgy shonen, made somewhat watchable by Shinoa being generally excellent

High School DxD s3: much weaker than the first two seasons, apparently does a lot of anime-original stuff

Kekkai Sensen/Blood Blockade Battlefront: Starts out as an almost Space Dandy-ish show of bizarre episodic adventures that I really liked, but it's been moving towards a much more serious (and seemingly bad) anime original ending, so eh
 
little sad to hear that about s3 of highschool dxd, i was waiting until the uncensored version came out before watching it
 
Great (10-8)
Hibike Euphonium - Felt 'real' (in terms of drama and character development). KyoAni knows how to make things look good
JoJos - Egypt crusaders is one of my favorite parts of the manga and david productions is an awesome company. Vanilla Ice + DIO fights were glorious. My only mark against this is no part 4 confirmed but hey cant have everything
Enjoyable (7-5)
Danmachi - Was really corny but i didnt go into it expecting much and hey it was kind of fun
Seraph of the end - read above
Plastic Memories - The start was strong, middle was rubbish and they actually managed to pull off a (suprisingly) good ending. Wasted potential here but when this show was on it was red hot
Rubbish (4-1)
FSN UBW - the only redeeming thing about this second season was the waver velvet cameo
Unsure
Kekkai Sensen - Im only up to ep 6
Nisekoi - i like this adaptation but haru sucks i dont know how i feel about this latest season


Overall a pretty enjoyable season, lots of good stuff

Definitely watching next season

Non Non Biyori - Season 1 was pretty great, so going into this with expectations. Will be stoked if they are met
Monster Musume (dont judge me) - Been following the manga ever since translations were available, given the nature of the source idk how this will pan out but either way should be fun
Ore Monogatri - Continuing from Autumn

Nothing else is standing out to me

So what are you all watching next season? Anything in particular that anyones hyped for? Nothings really standing out too much for me but I'd like to pick up 3-4 more shows, so recs would be welcome!
 
alright heres my thoughts on what i watched (in order from best to worst) (also not counting incomplete 2 cour shows)

Jojo - holy fuck was this a ride, i have been very vocal about how much i loved this show. from the action to the comedy to just fucking everything, its all i could have possibly hoped for as it concludes

Euphonium - this show was just really good, it was one of the more accurate representation of a high school band that i have seen. the characters were super relatable. also its fucking gorgeous. kumikoxreina for life.

Kekkai Sensen - unfinished as of now but still super slick and cool, it was especially good at the start when it stayed mostly episodic. when it tried to connect stuff with an overarching plot it started to falter a lot - its still really fun to watch.

Punchline - the sleeper hit of the season, it took a long time to actually get going so a lot of people dropped it early on. jokes on them though the last 5 or so episodes are really fucking good, including one that is my favourite episode period of the season.

Assassination Classroom - this show was fun for a while, then got boring for a while, and then good again. very fun show, but a little monotonous after a while.

F/SN - i have not hid my dislike for this show very well. im not a fan of longwinded monologues which appear in spades in this show. its for the same reason i couldnt really like shigatsu. fight scenes were nice though. also i really fucking hate shirou/archer and find them just a massive suck of all energy whenever they appear on screen.

Re-kan - this show wasnt bad, it had some great jokes and some genuinely heartwarming moments. but the animation quality was ass tier and a lot of the humour gets old or falls flat especially towards the middle of the series. it falls prey to a bunch of standard tropes that kinda make it drag, but it ends (ep 12 is the REAL end) on a pretty sweet note. if you like hood anime with a bit of quality to em, check this one out - it's pretty nice.


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also in terms of shows next season, i am most hyped for ushio to tora. i have started becoming a massive mappa fanboy kinda out of nowhere, im really hoping they do this show justice.

other things i'll check out
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are what i have now, knowing me though i will probably cull 1/3 of this list by the end of episode 2

also ore monogatari/shokugeki/NINJA SLAYER continuing
 
Looks good:
Gangsta: Director of Ergo Proxy, by Manglobe, studio of Ergo Proxy. It's about gangsters.
Prison School: Taunting me with the Shirobako director and Shirobako scriptwriter.
Snow White with the Red Hair: Hey there Sword of the Stranger dude, that's a pretty decent manga you're adapting.
Ushio to Tora: Director of Trigun and Eden of the East, scriptwriter of Death Note, Dragon Ball Z, Fist of the North Star and Fullmetal Alchemist, Art Director of Monster, Nana, Aoi Bungaku and Chihayafuru, slated for 39 episodes (2 cour + 1 cour)... For fuck's sake MAPPA, why not Parasyte?

Umm:
Overlord: It's really nondescript on the staff's end, but the premise is cute. Wildcard.
Gakkou Gurashi!: Guilty pleasure anime at best. I think.
Dragon Ball Super: :toast:
Charlotte: My opportunity to watch Angel Beats without watching Angel Beats.
Gate: Something Something Japanese Self-Defense Force: Comedy of the year?

Sequels have Gatchaman, Non Non Biyori, Durarara, Working and probably some more.
 
Only definitely warching Non Non, Gatchaman, and Prison School. I'll pick up anything else that looks good I guess. Also I think Ufotable blew everything they had on UBW, God Eater wasn't ready for early screning and now ep1 tv broadcast got delayed.

edit: I forgot monster musume, probably watching that too
 
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Non Non Biyori s2 is the only good show, rest of summer looks like shit

e: just realised Gakkou is airing.. might check that out
 
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