SM OU The Case for Double Stealth Rocks (Peak #1 Suspect ladder. 43-5 Record. GXE: 86.5)

Hey everyone! Welcome to my first RMT. This is the team I used to get reqs for the duggy suspect (vote ban please!). I only ever really ladder for suspect tests, because I find normal laddering kinda boring (it takes way too many games to get to #1). Proof: http://imgur.com/yEDCmSr

Seeing as school starts back up soon here in the lovely southern hemisphere I may as well share my team as I won't be playing much mons for a while.


With the metagame filled to the brim with speedy threats like Pheromosa, Greninja, and Tapu Koko, there are 2 ways to play around them: either to outspeed them or to outslow them. On this team, ScarfSerp outspeeds them, and Trick Room Magearna outslows them.



TEAM PREVIEW:






The Rock Setters



Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
Mamo is this teams 1st Stealth Rocker and is the lead 90% of the time. Its job is to get up SR and to punish mons such as Tapu Fini that want to come in and Defog away my hazards.

This set is pretty standard, so the one bit of advice I will give is to be smart when playing mamo. If the opponent doesn't have hazard control, then you might be in a position to use mamo as a suicide lead. If your opponent has a bunch of 4x ice weaks that get easily picked off by Ice Shard, then please dont sac Mamo turn 1. The beauty of 2 Stealth Rockers is you can pick and choose when you want to get rocks up and with which mon.

Sometimes, it's better to get off Ice Shard damage on lead Pheromosa, or to EQ a lead greninja for 90%. Sometimes, its better to get rocks up first turn to immediately pressure the opposing team. You really have to play Mamo by ear.



Landorus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave

The most versatile mon in the game is so versatile that it can run a special attacking set.

Why special Lando? Because i was getting tired of opposing Lando-T switching in on my own Lando and getting their own rocks up.

Timid + Life Orb lets me outspeed most variants of Lando-T and OHKO them with HP Ice. Double Dance Lando usually runs Adamant, and is OHKOd by this Lando, and normal defensive variants are 100% OHKOd after rocks. This also OHKOs DD Mence, stopping it from setting up on me where it would otherwise be able to set up a DD on defensive lando.

Sludge wave is for annoying fairies such as Tapu Fini and Clef. It can also 2HKO AV Tangrowth after rocks, and 2HKOs Gyara after rocks, meaning Gyara can only get off 1 DD (allowing me to outspeed and revenge with Serp). After rocks, Sludge wave also 2HKOs 252 HP Buzzwole, a mon which can usually set up a sub on defensive Lando.

Earth Power is reliable STAB and lets me 2HKO mons like Toxapex without having to worry about Scald burns.

Why two Stealth Rockers?
SR is one of, if not the most, important moves in Pokemon, and in this gen hazard control is predominately provided by one mon: Tapu Fini

The beauty of Fini is that it will almost always get off a Defog, and this has led to the rise in SR-weak sweepers such as Volcarona, Gyarados and Salamence. Fini's downfall, however, is that it has no reliable recovery, so against this team, it can realistically only ever get off 1 defog.

Gross 2HKOs with T-punch. Lando-T 2HKOs with Sludge Wave. Serp 2HKOs with Leaf Storm. Mamo 3HKOs with EQ.

The main premise of these two mons working in tandem is usually to get rocks up first with Mamo, and then to abuse the opponent's Defogger as it switches in and goes for Defog. Mamo will likely be down to its sash, and the opponent likely feel comfortable letting their Defogger get weakened, only to have Lando-T come in and set Rocks back up again.

A very common double I will make is to go Serperior on the Defog/Moonblast/Nature's Madness, and then straight back into Mamo as your opponent brings in their bulky steel (eg Heatran) so I can get rocks back up.

The Bruisers



Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm
Though it usually doesn't sweep, Gross is one of the most important mons on this team simply due to its ability to hit so many different mons hard. T-punch is necessary for the likes of Skarm, Celesteela, Zard-Y and Gyarados. Ice Punch hits the usual suspects such as Lando-T, Chomp, and Flying/Dragon Mons.
Hammer Arm > Earthquake is predominately to hit Ferrothorn and Chansey. Hammer Arm also does enough damage to opposing Mega-Metagross such that Twinkle Tackle from Magearna will KO after a couple of rocks hits.

I don't run Bullet Punch because I have enough priority on my team thanks to Mamo and Ash-Gren, and the loss of a coverage move would hurt Gross much more than BP aids it.
Zen Headbutt would be nice, but again, I can't afford to lose any of the 3 coverage moves I run as they are all there for a very specific reason.




Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Water Shuriken
Honestly, there's not much that I can say about this mon that hasn't already been said, so I will explain my choice of Ice Beam > U-turn and my choice of Battle Bond > Protean.

One of Greninja's greatest strengths (and the reason why it just might be broken) is the fact that you don't know whether it's Protean or Ash. I don't wish to give that information away just so I can U-turn on Tapu Fini or Toxapex for 1% damage. I play very aggressively, and I trust myself to make the correct double switch after bringing Gren in, negating the need for U-turn.

Ice Beam is still incredibly useful both pre and post Battle Bond, allowing you to pick off 4x ice weaks like Zygarde, as well as allowing for a late game clean up without having to risk Hydro missing.

Battle Bond > Protean for one simple reason: Water Shuriken. I actually think that Protean Gren is a better mon overall, however, the loss of Specs Water Shuriken is just too much for this team imo. Assuming I am in Ash-form, Shuriken can come in and pick off +1 Sp Def Volcarona after stealth rocks, as well as OHKOing Pheromosa, Landorus, Excadrill and the like.

You can choose to run HP Fire, Spikes, Gunk Shot + Filler Move Protean Greninja if you can withstand the loss of priority, as this will help with the team's M-Scizor weakness as well allow Gren to beat Fini.



The Sweepers




Serperior @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Pulse
- Glare

Laugh all you want (and plenty of people on the ladder do) but I seriously believe ScarfSerp is one of the most underrated mons in this extremely fast and frail metagame. I used ScarfSerp on a rain team to get reqs for Genesect, and I liked it so much that I had to use it here.

This thing is an absolute monster. It is very easy to come in on a weakened mon and pick it off with Leaf Storm, and soon this thing becomes unstoppable. Scarf allows me to outspeed Greninja and get surprise KOs if I switch in on a Dark Pulse aimed at Metagross, as well as allowing me to outspeed Koko, non-scarf Pheromosa, and pretty much any other scarfer in the game.

After getting a kill, your opponent will likely send out a scarfer/'faster' mon of their own to KO you, only to have you outspeed and KO them back.

+2 Serp outspeeds and:
  • OHKOs Scarf Lele after rocks
  • OHKOs Koko, Greninja, Scarf Lando-t and Scarf Chomp

Once you get to +4, that's when the fun really begins.
  • Mega-Metagross, one of the biggest threats in this tier (and to this team) takes 68-80% damage, giving Magearna an opening to sweep.
  • Physically Defensive Toxapex gets OHKOd
  • Hell, even Chansey has a chance of dying if it switches in on rocks at +4 and then takes another Leaf Storm at +6.

Glare is the most important move after Leaf Storm, because it lets me get a last ditch paralysis off on +1 mons such as Gyara/Mence/Volcarona.

HP Fire for Ferro/Scizor and Dragon Pulse is just a filler move that is handy if I need to KO a Dragon that won't die to Leaf Storm.

As great of a sweeper as Serp is, its main purpose is to lure in mons that wall/check Magearna. This includes Heatran, Ferrothorn, opposing Magearna, and Celesteela. Now you might be wondering why I run two sweepers that are both essentially checked by the same mons, and the answer is that that's the point. Serp lures in all of the above mons, making them take Stealth Rocks and a Leaf Storm (or HP Fire if you predict correctly).

The last thing I want is to run 5 mons that counter/check the above Magearna checks, only for them to have never seen the light of day and be at near-full health because my opponent can't bring them in on any of my other 5 mons.

Luring these mons in allows me to either get off SR + Leaf Storm, or it allows me to double into Gross/Lando/Greninja, forcing them to either take damage or switch out once again. Seeing as none of these bulky steel types have reliable recovery outside of leech seed (which can be played around), the name of the game is to slowly wear them down to the point where Magearna can KO them.


Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Trick Room
Magearna is undoubtedly the star of the team (and the mon that I based this team around). This meta is a lot more fast paced than previous ones, making it perfect for a mon like Magearna to come in and slow things down a bit with Trick Room. Coupled with Soul Heart, this thing will destroy teams in the late-game.

Why Trick Room over Shift Gear? Honestly, I think Shift Gear Magearna sucks. If you use Shift Gear, you are forced to run Timid +252 Speed, meaning you lose a ton of power and a ton of bulk. And even if you do manage to get a Shift Gear off (likely taking some damage in the process), Scarf Pheromosa just comes in and clicks High Jump Kick to finish you off.

TR allows me to run 252 HP, giving me an easier time getting off a TR so that I can sweep. The beauty of this Magearna is that you can pretty much get a TR off on anything short of a STAB supereffective move from a very strong mon. After taking rocks damage, you have still a 87.5% chance of living +1 High Jump Kick from Scarf Pheromosa, that's how bulky Magearna is.

Fairium Z makes Fleur Cannon a 195 BP move, and lets you dodge the -2 Sp At, essentially guaranteeing you a KO and a +1 boost in the late game. Soul Heart is one of the best Abilities in the game, and those +1 boosts just keep on stacking as you keep getting KOs.
Just remember that you only get 4 turns of Trick Room after initially setting it up, so try to keep Magearna in the back until the opponent has only 4-5 somewhat weakened mons left.

Calcs vs some of the most common/threatening mons

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 161-190 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 408-481 (106.8 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 309-364 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 155-183 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 399-469 (134.3 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 253-298 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 324-382 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 167-197 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


In short, Magearna is stupid strong.

Aura Sphere > Thunderbolt
so that I can pick off weakened Steel types. T-bolt is only really used for mons like Toxapex and Celesteela, both of which I usually have no trouble dealing with.

Calcs vs common steels

252+ SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 140-166 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 182-216 (47.1 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 146-174 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Flash Cannon is just a reliable, spammable STAB move that will net you most of you KOs once Magearna reaches +2 or +3.

Magearna is also my answer to the ever-annoying and ever-prevelent Scolipede baton-pass spam teams (thanks robopoke). You come in, Trick Room up on Scolipede (which usually runs Poison Jab so it cant touch you) and precede to wear it down with Flash Cannon. If you play correctly, Scolipede should never be able to pass off a substitute, and at the very least you should be at 100% and have a chance to TR up on any mon that wants to come in, completely negating its speed boosts and potentially netting yourself a KO with Twinkle Tackle.

Weaknesses

Stall. Stall. Stall.

Perhaps the team's biggest weakness is stall. Chansey, Skarm, Clef, Sab etc are just so annoying for this team to deal with. If you see a stall team, you have to keep Metagross healthy, as this is the only way you are breaking through Skarm and Chansey.

That said, the greatest weakness of stall is it's predictability. You know exactly what each mon is going to do, and you can play accordingly. You know that they are going to lead M-Sableye and protect on turn one, so lead Serp and get off a Leaf Storm as he knocks you off, and then get off a Leaf Storm on the incoming Clef/Chansey. Putting Sableye at 60ish% means it cant come in on any mon. From there, the aim is to get rock up and to hurt the opponents team with Metagross. Once one link in the stall chain is gone (be it Skarm or Chansey or Sab etc...) you will have a much easier time winning.

The reason I don't run a dedicated stall-breaker is because I usually just forfeit games against stall because I can't be bothered playing them (especially when getting reqs because I can afford to lose 10-15 games). However, I found this team actually doesnt do too bady against stall teams, and so I played (and won) most of my battles against stall.

Here is a replay against stall which I won through a combination of some very good luck and some prediction.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533307089

Mega-Scizor

This thing will sweep you if you let it get to +4. My only reliable ways of beating it are HP Fire on Serp, and Hydro Pump on Greninja (or Dark Pulse if I am in Ash form). If you see a Scizor in team preview, you have to keep Greninja and Serp healthy, as both can take a +2 BP and deal a huge chunk of damage back.

Magearna Checks

I have already mentioned Tran, Ferrothorn, Celesteela and opposing Magearna above, so I will address some other checks.

Mega-Metagross: This is the mon that you will likely run into most on ladder that poses a problem for Magearna. Seeing as Gross has no method of recovery, any damage is good damage. Twinkle Tackle will KO if gross is below 53.4%.

+2 Serperior does 44.8 - 53.1%, so if you get a chance to Leaf Storm Metagross for the damage, you should take it 99% of the time.

EQ from Metagross does only around 60-65%, so if Trick Room is up, you can always Twinkle Tackle into Aura Sphere.

M-Venusaur/Amoonguss: These two can pose some issues for the team, however a combination of Mamo, Lando-T, Greninja and Stealth Rocks are more than enough to wear these two mons down.

Toxapex: This mon gets destroyed by Mamo + Lando + Serp, so isn't a huge worry for me

Offensive Fire Types (Zard Y and X, Volcarona): These mons are the reason why Stealth Rocks are so important to this team. So if you see any of these on the opponent's team, make it your no. 1 priority to set rocks up and pressure these mons. Twinkle Tackle can OHKO both Zard Y and Volcarona after SR.



I hope you all try out the team and have as much fun with it as I did. Feel free to ask me any questions.

P.S. Get ready for many comments during the battle like 'Scarf Serp.....are you serious?'

:)



Importable
Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Trick Room

Landorus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave

Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Water Shuriken

Serperior @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Pulse
- Glare
 
Last edited:
yo man i LOVE the look of that team

i understand serp is there to net surprise kills (and lando probably does from time to time too) and revenge a lot of stuff, or glare+1 threat (a bit like thundy back then with the prioritary t-wave) but what do you think about changing it to sub seed serp?

that way the stall match up is waaaaaaay easier (and even a pseudo auto win if played right)
Legit i was reading the thread, scrolling down and thinking "how dafaq does he beat stall"
you're obviously a very good player but i feel like going against a good stall player (yeah yeah they exist ^^) you would be at a disadvantage from the start

you lose a bit of speed control but you still have magearna

that lando seems interesting and i can't wait to try it, the thing is it prolly won't be as effective if people know about it ^^

kudos man, double sr does make sense and this team looks very nice :)
 
yo man i LOVE the look of that team

i understand serp is there to net surprise kills (and lando probably does from time to time too) and revenge a lot of stuff, or glare+1 threat (a bit like thundy back then with the prioritary t-wave) but what do you think about changing it to sub seed serp?

that way the stall match up is waaaaaaay easier (and even a pseudo auto win if played right)
Legit i was reading the thread, scrolling down and thinking "how dafaq does he beat stall"
you're obviously a very good player but i feel like going against a good stall player (yeah yeah they exist ^^) you would be at a disadvantage from the start

you lose a bit of speed control but you still have magearna

that lando seems interesting and i can't wait to try it, the thing is it prolly won't be as effective if people know about it ^^

kudos man, double sr does make sense and this team looks very nice :)
Hey, i'm glad you like the team.

Yes, SubSeed Serp is definitely an option and would help me greatly against stall. The only issue is that it leaves me extremely weak to opposing Ash-Greninja as well as +1 DD mons like Gyara. One potential change I could see myself making if I used SubSeeb Serp is to run scarf Protean Gren with U-turn, HP electric, Ice Beam and Hydro Pump so that I can revenge Gyara, Mence, Volc, and hurt opposing greninja with U-turn.

Special Lando is such a cool mon, and even if people do start expecting it, there's still no way for them to counter it with their own Lando unless they run max speed (which sacrifices a lot of bulk/power). It is still rare enough at the moment that you should get away with it, and I still don't think opposing teams can run the risk of assuming special Lando on the off chance that you are the SD Z move set.

I don't really have time to test/play much with school starting, but you should definitely give SubSeed a shot and let me know how it goes.
 
I used this team for reqs its really strong and i think it highlights just how effective double rocks are in the meta 99% of the time u get up rocks since no one thinks you have 2 users and you lure fini everytime with the surprise sludge wave. Scarf serp stole so many games the opponent thought they won, ohko'ing the phero revenge kill never gets old. you listed every problem the team has but really there all manageable besides chansey which can only be killed by meta and a well played celesteela can be super annyoing.

Great team probably my favorite SM team yet, super creative let it works perfectly

Alos I wouldnt change anything this team is built so nicely that one set change could throw off the balance of the whole team with the upcoming possible duggy ban stall will be less common too and you really need scarf on serp for all the speed control offense in the meta
 
I used this team for reqs its really strong and i think it highlights just how effective double rocks are in the meta 99% of the time u get up rocks since no one thinks you have 2 users and you lure fini everytime with the surprise sludge wave. Scarf serp stole so many games the opponent thought they won, ohko'ing the phero revenge kill never gets old. you listed every problem the team has but really there all manageable besides chansey which can only be killed by meta and a well played celesteela can be super annyoing.

Great team probably my favorite SM team yet, super creative let it works perfectly

Alos I wouldnt change anything this team is built so nicely that one set change could throw off the balance of the whole team with the upcoming possible duggy ban stall will be less common too and you really need scarf on serp for all the speed control offense in the meta
I'm glad you enjoyed using the team.

Yes, Chansey is a huge issue for this team, which is why I started testing a variation of this team with Choice Band Adamant Bisharp is place of Greninja. This allows me to nab a +2 boost on a defogging Fini/Skarm, and it also continually pressures Chansey with the 50/50 of Knock Off or Pursuit (which does 43-50% to a Chansey that's switching out). Knocking off Skarm's helmet/lefties is incredibly helpful for Metagross, and Knocking off Clef's lefties mean it can be 2HKOd by Serp after rocks. Sucker Punch provides great priority and hits incredibly hard.

I didn't get a chance to test this iteration of the team that much, but in the few games I played (and on paper) it seems like it would do quite well.
Choice Band Knock off does 62% min to 252 HP Tran, 50% to standard Ferro, and 60% min to Sp Def Celesteela.

Bisharp also has most of the same resistances/weaknesses as Greninja, so it doesnt ruin the team's synergy too much, but you obviously lose a lot of speed and the ability to OHKO mons such as Pheromosa. So in reality, the only reason you'd run Bisharp over Greninja is if you are worried about stall.

But you are right, if Duggy gets banned (which I think is quite likely), stall will become a lot less prevalent, making this team even more deadly.
 
It wasn't until I saw the Maggie calcs that I realized what I loved about this team so much. It is nearly perfectly suited to support a Magearna sweep, and SR are a necessity for it to take out the peskiest threats in S/M. I will absolutely try this out and see if I can change my mind about the monotonous meta game.
 
Hi, the team is definitely very solid and creative as it is very easy to sweep with magearna in the correct situation.There are some notable flaws with the team though as with your serperior slot as well as some of the movesets.

Serperior<tapu lele/hoopa-u:Your team is extremely weak to mega Venusaur, and the only thing that can take it on is mamoswine(which i doubt as it is your lead most of the time and mega Venusaur needs to get chipped a bit to even kill with earthquake).I also noticed that serperior does not hold a specific role outside of leaf storm sweeping which probably won't happen in many games, and there are better options for speed control.Since you are mega Venusaur I thought the only Pokemon that could fill serperiors role better was either hoopa-u, or tapu lele(both scarf btw).Hoopa-unbound with scarf can help your weakness vs mega metagross as well and pressure many stall teams.Tapu lele does not help as much since its terrain stops greninja from shuriken due to its priority, and does not handle mega gross very good,but it is faster and able to check non scarf pheromosa w.o speed boost from qd or beast boost.Unlike hoopa-unbound tapu lele is able to deal with dragonite after scale is broken,mega alakazam,mega Gyarados,pheromosa as I noted before,and can check other hoopa-unbound once it has taken enough damage.Both pokemon also help your stall matchup a lot.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Psychic
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic/psyshock
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast/thunderbolt/shadow ball
- Hidden Power Fire

NOTABLE SET FLAWS:First off greninja should always run u-turn>ice beam.Greninja has a hard time beating pokemon like tapu fini, assault vest tangrowth, occasionally mantine lol,toxapex, and many other bulky waters and fairys.This is of course assuming that you are not ash greninja yet since all of these things counter you and you can't kill them.It is important to get off that momentum that Greninja oh so needs so it can get some chip damage, on them most notably tangrowth, and also bring out something that checks them so that they take another round of hazard damage toxic ect.U turn is also mainly used for when greninja is in his ash form as it can u turn out until something is chipped to the point where it can die to hydro or dark pulse.

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
- Water Shuriken

Same goes for landorus-therian, they should be always be running u-turn for momentum for sweepers,wallbreakers or just for chip damage.I suggest u-turn>sludge wave.U-turn landorus-therian works extremely well on this team as you are able to u-turn on other landorus-therian bring out greninja, u-turn again and you can bring in hoopa-unbound,or set up with magearna or bring our mamo/mega metagross.

Landorus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Lastly I think zen headbutt>thunder punch on mega Metagross is an option to beat Venusaur-mega much more easily.Thunderpunch is fine to keep though as it is useful beating or weakening bulky waters for greninja.

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm

That finishes up my rate for tonight,I hope I helped you, and your team a bit.Comment back so I can see if you are questioning anything I said.
 
Last edited:
Sup, just wanted to say that this team is fucking awesome. Big props for taking a creative route with Landorus and using mons that people would otherwise skip (Serperior). Really cool to see people having success with this sort of thing. I've tested it and it works great n_n. Grats on the peak!
 
Hi, the team is definitely very solid and creative as it is very easy to sweep with magearna in the correct situation.There are some notable flaws with the team though as with your serperior slot as well as some of the movesets.

Serperior<tapu lele/hoopa-u:Your team is extremely weak to mega Venusaur, and the only thing that can take it on is mamoswine(which i doubt as it is your lead most of the time and mega Venusaur needs to get chipped a bit to even kill with earthquake).I also noticed that serperior does not hold a specific role outside of leaf storm sweeping which probably won't happen in many games, and there are better options for speed control.Since you are mega Venusaur I thought the only Pokemon that could fill serperiors role better was either hoopa-u, or tapu lele(both scarf btw).Hoopa-unbound with scarf can help your weakness vs mega metagross as well and pressure many stall teams.Tapu lele does not help as much since its terrain stops greninja from shuriken due to its priority, and does not handle mega gross very good,but it is faster and able to check non scarf pheromosa w.o speed boost from qd or beast boost.Unlike hoopa-unbound tapu lele is able to deal with dragonite after scale is broken,mega alakazam,mega Gyarados,pheromosa as I noted before,and can check other hoopa-unbound once it has taken enough damage.Both pokemon also help your stall matchup a lot.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Psychic
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic/psyshock
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast/thunderbolt/shadow ball
- Hidden Power Fire

NOTABLE SET FLAWS:First off greninja should always run u-turn>ice beam.Greninja has a hard time beating pokemon like tapu fini, assault vest tangrowth, occasionally mantine lol,toxapex, and many other bulky waters and fairys.This is of course assuming that you are not ash greninja yet since all of these things counter you and you can't kill them.It is important to get off that momentum that Greninja oh so needs so it can get some chip damage, on them most notably tangrowth, and also bring out something that checks them so that they take another round of hazard damage toxic ect.U turn is also mainly used for when greninja is in his ash form as it can u turn out until something is chipped to the point where it can die to hydro or dark pulse.

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
- Water Shuriken

Same goes for landorus-therian, they should be always be running u-turn for momentum for sweepers,wallbreakers or just for chip damage.I suggest u-turn>sludge wave.U-turn landorus-therian works extremely well on this team as you are able to u-turn on other landorus-therian bring out greninja, u-turn again and you can bring in hoopa-unbound,or set up with magearna or bring our mamo/mega metagross.

Landorus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Lastly I think zen headbutt>thunder punch on mega Metagross is an option to beat Venusaur-mega much more easily.Thunderpunch is fine to keep though as it is useful beating or weakening bulky waters for greninja.

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm

That finishes up my rate for tonight,I hope I helped you, and your team a bit. Comment back so I can see if you are questioning anything I said.

Hi, thanks for taking the time to review the team.

From a competitive/laddering standpoint, of the 2 mons you suggested, I think Lele is the better option, seeing as I would have no way of beating +1 Gyarados/Volc/Mence or Mega-Scizor if I ran Hoopa. That being said, I don't really like scarf-Lele in this metagame, especially with Mega Metagross and Greninja being the 2 biggest threats in the meta. If you lock yourself into Psychic, gren gets a free switch, if you lock yourself into either psychic or moonblast, Metagross comes in for free and gets off a massive hit on any mon. In addition to this, the beauty of Serp is that you are able to outspeed and get off a last ditch Glare if your opponent does get to +1 with a mon such as Volc/Mence/Zard X (all of which outspeed scarf Lele at +1)

If I were to run Twisted Spoon Lele (Lele's best set imo), it would leave this team way too slow and vulnerable to mons such as LO Pheromosa.

U-turn over Ice Beam on Greninja is more of a personal preference. Like I stated in my original post, I believe I am adept enough at prediction that I can make the correct double on an incoming Fini/Tangrowth/Toxapex.

Regarding Lando, I don't really need to u-turn out on opposing Lando's because I can just OHKO them with HP Ice. Sludge wave is necessary for luring Fini and for the other Tapus.

My philosophy is that if i'm gonna predict a switch and click u-turn, I may as well just make a double because I likely know what my opponent is going into. That said, I can see why people would choose u-turn over ice beam/sludge wave.

Mega-venu is definitely an issue, which is why I tent to play Mamo safer and try to get up SR with Lando if I see it, and then pressure I try to pressure it with Gross/Mamo/Lando.

I still believe T-punch should be run over zen-butt as this team has trouble with mons like Celesteela, Skarma and Gyara. Getting rid of T-punch makes this team more weak than it already is to stall, seeing as you would have no way to touch Skarm at that point.

The main point of this team was just to muck around with some different concepts (eg 2 Stealth Rockers) and underappreciated/different mons like Serp and special Lando, and though this team is definitely without flaw, the main reason I built and shared it (and why I think people like this team so much) is that it's just so damn fun to play with. No team will ever be able to defeat every threat/playstyle, and I just think that ScarfSerp and sludge wave on Lando are a huge reason why this team is so fun, even though those mons/sets might not be the most competitively viable.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top