The Clowns were in Congress Today.

Other than basic human compassion, Colbert points out several reasons:
  • We need people to do the work.
  • They're coming illegally anyway, so we might as well give them legal protection to prevent massive scale human rights abuses

Regardless, no one's saying "fling them open"...



About this legal way, how long is the waiting list from Mexico? 99 years. Yup.



I won't break it down much point by point, but in short, you act as if these people don't exist if they're not legal. Most of what you cite as "problems" are either not problems now while they're here and wouldn't change if they were legal, or ARE problems that would be fixed by legalization.

To use one of your examples, illegals put a HUGE strain on the wrong parts of the healthcare system. ERs are obligated to take people without asking for papers, for example, so now our ERs are full of immigrants coming in because they have the flu. If they had amnesty, they could go to a doctor's office like most of us do rather than the ER.
There is no reason they should be legalized. Somehow the work got done before illegals worked on the farms. And they are coming illegally anyway i a pretty lame way to justify legalization. I fail to see how human rights abuse plays into legalization anyway? By deportation of illegals? Or are you saying we are saving them from mexico. And compassion is hardly a great rationalization either.

Sucks that there's a waiting time limit but that's because the huge volume of people that would like to get in and the fact that we can't sustain such a huge volume of people.

i think you should have addressed the criminal concerns in my post as well. There are a huge amounts of crimes due to illegal immigration and i hardly think the best to do is legalize those who are raping our legal system and give them benefits of being american citizens. And what do we do after we legalize them? Won't that just spur more to cross the border? It's not like the illegals here are the end of it.

as for health care they could go to a doctors office on what? government health care? Making waiting lines huge and putting a strain on the general health care system. Most of the issues i addressed are huge concerns. You would just rather they weren't.
 
Somehow the work got done before illegals worked on the farms
So go do the work yourself for competitive prices.

And they are coming illegally anyway i a pretty lame way to justify legalization. I fail to see how human rights abuse plays into legalization anyway? By deportation of illegals? Or are you saying we are saving them from mexico. And compassion is hardly a great rationalization either.
By giving them basic human rights.

Sucks that there's a waiting time limit but that's because the huge volume of people that would like to get in and the fact that we can't sustain such a huge volume of people.
Prove it.

There are a huge amounts of crimes due to illegal immigration and i hardly think the best to do is legalize those who are raping our legal system and give them benefits of being american citizens. And what do we do after we legalize them? Won't that just spur more to cross the border? It's not like the illegals here are the end of it.
Prove it, all of it. Also, legalizing them and giving them a tiny bit of support is a good way to steer many of them away from crime. They often turn to crime out of desperation. So you're saying we need to stop illegals, but you are completely aware that we basically cannot stop them (I'm Canadian, we have chinese coming in slow moving dragonboats all the time to BC's coast so I can say we).

SOD, your choices appear to be this:

1. Try to stop the illegals and treat them like criminals even if they are trying to earn an honest wage just to make a living while denying them human rights.

2. Try to stop the illegals and treat them like human beings; they are here anyways, they won't stop coming, you might as well bite the bullet and be the country you claim to be what with the human rights, equality and BUILT ON IMMMIGRATION.

as for health care they could go to a doctors office on what? government health care? Making waiting lines huge and putting a strain on the general health care system. Most of the issues i addressed are huge concerns. You would just rather they weren't.
Welcome to Canada. Honestly, I once waited SIX HOURS bleeding all over the place to get 2 minutes worth of sutures because people with "sore backs" were getting in ahead of me. Triage and HC is an absolute joke in the first world, deal with it, a few hundred thousand mexicans is a drop in bucket compared to 300 million+ Americans all bitching.
 
The fact that he saves the life of his family?

..?

Have a nice day.
At the risk of sounding callous, I'm going to point out the false dichotomy presented here, as the choice is most definitely not illegally enter America or die. And if America took in every family that was starving or saved every person that was starving, we'd be harboring 1.02 billion people withing our country. While it may be cruel, it is not America's job to save everybody. Some people will have to be turned down from entering our country.

Have a nice day as well.
 
So go do the work yourself for competitive prices.



By giving them basic human rights.



Prove it.



Prove it, all of it. Also, legalizing them and giving them a tiny bit of support is a good way to steer many of them away from crime. They often turn to crime out of desperation. So you're saying we need to stop illegals, but you are completely aware that we basically cannot stop them (I'm Canadian, we have chinese coming in slow moving dragonboats all the time to BC's coast so I can say we).

SOD, your choices appear to be this:

1. Try to stop the illegals and treat them like criminals even if they are trying to earn an honest wage just to make a living while denying them human rights.

2. Try to stop the illegals and treat them like human beings; they are here anyways, they won't stop coming, you might as well bite the bullet and be the country you claim to be what with the human rights, equality and BUILT ON IMMMIGRATION.



Welcome to Canada. Honestly, I once waited SIX HOURS bleeding all over the place to get 2 minutes worth of sutures because people with "sore backs" were getting in ahead of me. Triage and HC is an absolute joke in the first world, deal with it, a few hundred thousand mexicans is a drop in bucket compared to 300 million+ Americans all bitching.
What basic human rights are you referring to? They already are being treated medically for free, their kids can become legal and go to our schools, they can get welfare and medicaid, they can cause crime without proper justice. I don't know what you are thinking they deserve or should be given. As far as i know they have basic human rights.

As for proving sustaining i think you should just really think that one through a little. If you legalize 15 million unskilled poor workers you really think that isn't going to put a strain on things? And you ignored my point about the problem of more immigrants coming after legalizing this wave. What would you do then? Legalize them again? Because it's like opening the borders and i hardly believe that that many people wouldn't change the southwest into a little mexico.

As for crime i hardly think that is even arguable.
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime.html
the study of 50,000 plus in the federal system showed illegals with multiple arrests and deportations. An average of 8 arrests per illegal alien prisoners.

http://www.cis.org/announcement/AZ-immigration-SB1070

In maricopa county 22% of felonies are committed by illegal aliens. They are 10% of the population there. But no they are all just hard working stand up people and legalization is a freaking great idea. Right? That link also has some great statistics for health care and poverty levels.

My stance is control the borders. It is unacceptable that this is even happening. Deport everyone that you can and control the borders. I'm sorry that canada also doesn't control it's borders and has crummy health care. But i hardly want to wait to get medical attention. You may resign yourself to it but i think that is absurd. The crime rate is ridiculous. We should not be taking on the problems of mexico and even if we were to try and help we shouldn't have to take the crime as well. This country was built on legal immigration. Basic human rights are already afforded illegals and much more than that. We have enough problems of our own without taking on mexico's.

EDIT: Also prove that legalization would lower crime. That is your hope but i suspect you are completely mistaken. You missed my point on work as well. The work has simply become beneath americans because it is paid under the table at less than minimum wage. Hardly liveable income. But lets legalize illegals and create a poor working farm class. That seems pretty fair to them.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
What basic human rights are you referring to? They already are being treated medically for free, their kids can become legal and go to our schools, they can get welfare and medicaid, they can cause crime without proper justice. I don't know what you are thinking they deserve or should be given. As far as i know they have basic human rights.
You're kidding, right? Do you honestly think an illegal immigrant has more rights than you? Even close to the same rights?

Have you ever met an illegal? Ever? What do you think the average life of an illegal is like?
 
vanguard said:
I applaud the faith you have in American workers. You cannot seriously believe that illegal immigrants workers are the keystone of our economy and without them we would fall back into the Stone Age. If businesses were to check the backgrounds of their employees and deny those with questionable immigration status, then the jobs would go to Americans and lower our unemployment rate (which everyone seems to care about) and said employees could then spend money in America instead of sending it to their home country. And we all know that spending money in America will do what?
Did you seriously not understand what Colbert's testimony was about? Do you not understand the bill and why it's being debated? American agriculture specifically is dependent on migrant labor to function. If every illegal immigrant were deported, the industry would collapse. The farmers can be weaned off of illegal labor, but your solution of sending immigrants back home is not conducive to this process, and doesn't actually help the exploitation of migrant laborers. The answer of giving visas to the migrant laborers is a realistic solution that actually begins to address the problem.

I see nothing wrong with that.
You think it's feasible, ethical, and cost-effective to round up 15 million people and ship them out of the country? Even if we don't care about these rule-breaking brown people, it's still not plausible, nor does it even address the root problem. Even if you pull up every weed in your yard, they're just going to keep sprouting back up. (See what I did there? I helped you understand by putting it in terms you agree with - immigrants described as invasive pests.)

And not even to mention the massive costs of such large-scale sweeps. I thought right-wing fuckwits were opposed to government spending? I guess not when there's rule-breaking brown folk to punish.

If they're coming to our country, they should learn English. Not only for my sake, but for their sake as well. It makes it immensely easier to get by in daily life speaking English than any of their native tongues (I don't recall ever specifying the Mexicans as the only immigrants coming here illegally).
Well, maybe there's your answer. Look at what I said, and look at your response.

Guess I'm not a right-wing fuckwit then.
You don't support free market economics? Are you some kind of social conservative, fiscal liberal fuckwit? Because that may just be worse than a regular right-wing fuckwit.

But you're not that. Because you're going to talk about how the government needs to round up immigrants and stop the terrorists, then go right around and complain about how the government is spending too much. You're going to rant about big government, then go and support a downright gigantic army. You're going to complain about how Christians are persecuted by liberals, then oppose the building of mosques at sensitive sites. Because you are just like every other hypocritical right-wing fuckwit in America. (You're also going to respond to this with "inane drivel" or "ad hominem" or something like that, but that's beside the point.)

At least acknowledge my valid point about NAFTA? By striking down Mexican protectionism, you've crippled the growth of Mexican industry and agriculture which is why we have so many people wanting to immigrate in the first place. That's not to say Mexico has a stagnant, dying economy - on the contrary, Mexico is one of the world's fastest growing economies (it's lumped with South Korea as right behind the BRIC nations in terms of economic development). This immigration issue might begin to resolve itself in the future as Mexico's economy continues to grow. But right now, that just isn't happening, and NAFTA is a huge reason why.
 
You're kidding, right? Do you honestly think an illegal immigrant has more rights than you? Even close to the same rights?

Have you ever met an illegal? Ever? What do you think the average life of an illegal is like?
Have you ever met an illegal ever? You are talking about basic human rights but you have not listed any examples of what that means. so i'm listing benefits they already receive. Did i ever say anywhere in there that they have more rights than me? Get over yourself and actually respond with some substance.
 
I live in Southern California which is a hotspot for illegal immigrants, so I have more experience being around them than someone living in say....Vermont.

My opinion is probably very biased just because I live in a Hispanic majority suburb, and technically being a "minority(gay)" even though I'm American, so I can sympathize with their plight. I'm a very caring person and this is why I avoid politics as much as I can; I vest too much emotion into it. But to me it's clear that granting illegal immigrants (at least those that are currently here) visas would be much more beneficial than rounding them up a la holocaust and sending them back to their home country. I agree with Umbar that if their home country's economy were better their would be no need to immigrate in the first place, and I think that that would be a nice place to start (with the country that supplies the most immigrants, so Mexico should be a priority).

I really do believe that illegal immigrants take the job that Americans don't want. A lot of us take it for granted, I know I do. People call me spoiled but for fucks sake I think working in a Starbucks is even a tad bit ghetto....Yeah I'm trying to work on that. I'm lucky but I know there are a shit ton of people who aren't. A months wage in the U.S. could feed their family back in their home country for a year. These are jobs most Americans would never want to be doing. Really, how many of you here would work in 100 degree weather (yes that's how fucking hot it is here today) picking fruits and vegetables for less than minimum wage? I know for fucking sure I wouldn't. Also, if we were forced to do it, seeing how bitchy we Americans are, we would demand a much higher wage which would make prices a lot higher. Unfortunately, as willing as illegal immigrants are to take these jobs, it kinda screws them over because they kinda can't really make a decent living out of it in the U.S. For this...I don't really know what can be done. Education would be a nice start, but for most that would be out of the question. It kinda creates an even "lower" low class, but I don't really see how their situation in their home country would be better.

I'd like to bring attention something that hasn't been brought up in depth in this thread yet-the youth. There are a lot of children of illegal immigrants in school right now, and these will be the hardworking, educated citizens of tomorrow. I find it odd that people say illegal immigrants want us to accommodate to them...but most of the Hispanic youth I've seen here is really whitewashed. Also, I read an article a while back that White Americans have the lowest fertility of all major ethnicity's (or was it Asian, I think it was White...) in the U.S., meaning that their would be a shortage of young labor in the coming years. These youth would help fill that gap. Anyways this was just my $.02 cents on the issue....I sound retarded when I talk about politics.

I also found it a bit funny that I typed this up when we have workers (probably illegal) painting our house...Which reminds me I need to go out and give them some cold drinks because it's fucking hot.
 
I'm really certain that they aren't being treated medically at all, nevermind for free, Son of Disaster. I'm not sure how asking us to list what human rights are is supposed to counter anything since I KNOW you're not asking for your own personal benefit. That's a tactic called moving the goalposts which isn't exactly fair play in any debate. SoD, I am this point certain that you're either bigoted against these people or you are going at this from a media hype itchy trigger finger perspective, so I won't even talk about this with you any more. You're basically arguing with some sort of cultural dogma. Having said that, I agree with basically everything CIM is saying so I'll let him do the talking in this thread for me from now on. :D

Telling someone to "get over themselves and respond with substance" sounds a mite trollish to me.
 
Did you seriously not understand what Colbert's testimony was about? Do you not understand the bill and why it's being debated? American agriculture specifically is dependent on migrant labor to function. If every illegal immigrant were deported, the industry would collapse. The farmers can be weaned off of illegal labor, but your solution of sending immigrants back home is not conducive to this process, and doesn't actually help the exploitation of migrant laborers. The answer of giving visas to the migrant laborers is a realistic solution that actually begins to address the problem.
Just watched it actually. I like to think I understand it too. And there is a big difference in extending work visas to immigrants and turning a blind eye to illegal immigrants.

You think it's feasible, ethical, and cost-effective to round up 15 million people and ship them out of the country? Even if we don't care about these rule-breaking brown people, it's still not plausible, nor does it even address the root problem. Even if you pull up every weed in your yard, they're just going to keep sprouting back up. (See what I did there? I helped you understand by putting it in terms you agree with - immigrants described as invasive pests.)
I don't recall ever using the words "invasive" or "pests" to describe immigrants. Thanks for putting words in my mouth however. And would you please thing rationally for a second. It is entirely possible to pull out all the weeds in your yard and then take preventative measures to ensure the weeds don't come back is it not? Allowing you to decide what to plant in your yard?

And not even to mention the massive costs of such large-scale sweeps. I thought right-wing fuckwits were opposed to government spending? I guess not when there's rule-breaking brown folk to punish.
I admit it would cost a great amount to sweep every town of illegal immigrants. Which is why I still advocate for better preventative measure so we do not need to enact such raids.


You don't support free market economics? Are you some kind of social conservative, fiscal liberal fuckwit? Because that may just be worse than a regular right-wing fuckwit.
But you're not that. Because you're going to talk about how the government needs to round up immigrants and stop the terrorists, then go right around and complain about how the government is spending too much. You're going to rant about big government, then go and support a downright gigantic army. You're going to complain about how Christians are persecuted by liberals, then oppose the building of mosques at sensitive sites. Because you are just like every other hypocritical right-wing fuckwit in America.
Do you want me to leave? You seem to be having a fine argument with yourself and what you think I am.
Also, I do support free market economics; I don't support breaking the law.

(You're also going to respond to this with "inane drivel" or "ad hominem" or something like that, but that's beside the point.)
Thank you for saving me the time of typing this out (mostly the ad hominem part, although i also would have added in a strawman reference too).

At least acknowledge my valid point about NAFTA? By striking down Mexican protectionism, you've crippled the growth of Mexican industry and agriculture which is why we have so many people wanting to immigrate in the first place. That's not to say Mexico has a stagnant, dying economy - on the contrary, Mexico is one of the world's fastest growing economies (it's lumped with South Korea as right behind the BRIC nations in terms of economic development). This immigration issue might begin to resolve itself in the future as Mexico's economy continues to grow. But right now, that just isn't happening, and NAFTA is a huge reason why.
Consider it acknowledged. I may not agree with it but it is acknowledged.
 
I'm really certain that they aren't being treated medically at all, nevermind for free, Son of Disaster. I'm not sure how asking us to list what human rights are is supposed to counter anything since I KNOW you're not asking for your own personal benefit. That's a tactic called moving the goalposts which isn't exactly fair play in any debate. SoD, I am this point certain that you're either bigoted against these people or you are going at this from a media hype itchy trigger finger perspective, so I won't even talk about this with you any more. You're basically arguing with some sort of cultural dogma. Having said that, I agree with basically everything CIM is saying so I'll let him do the talking in this thread for me from now on. :D

Telling someone to "get over themselves and respond with substance" sounds a mite trollish to me.
You are really certain but you are actually wrong and you know it. You posted nothing to back your position up and couldn't produce anything. Then continued to basically say i'm racist. Which is a wonderful counterpoint and rich with your knowledge of me. I'm not moving the goalposts i just want some sort of definition on what basic human rights they aren't being afforded even as illegal immigrants.

Call it trollish but simply ignoring my points and then questioning my understanding of illegal lifestyles is hardly thought provoking.
 
What basic human rights are you referring to? They already are being treated medically for free, their kids can become legal and go to our schools, they can get welfare and medicaid, they can cause crime without proper justice. I don't know what you are thinking they deserve or should be given. As far as i know they have basic human rights.
I didn't know you had those rights!
 
You are taking it out of context. I didn't claim they have more rights but that they already receive more rights than they should for illegally entering our country. But you are right i certainly don't have any rights like that. It'd be pretty sweet though right?
 
Uh, you claim they have rights that you don't. Thus, they have more rights then you. Thus,
Son of Disaster said:
Have you ever met an illegal ever? You are talking about basic human rights but you have not listed any examples of what that means. so i'm listing benefits they already receive. Did i ever say anywhere in there that they have more rights than me? Get over yourself and actually respond with some substance
is invalid.
 
The main problem with illegal immigration is the the way the money flows. The reason we want Americans to do these jobs is because we want this money to retain in America. Now obviously we are still going to buy products that are from foreign countries, but they are receiving products from us too. However, when an illegal immigrant does the job that "no American wants to do", that money they receive goes back to their family in Mexico and that is money that we do not see any profit from.

If you honestly think that this bill will completely destroy our farms' ability to grow crops then you are being dumb. Even if such a bill passes, it will not stop illegal immigration. If the Mexicans want to come to our country they will always find ways, but that does not necessarily mean that we should loosen our grip on people committing crimes on US soil.
 
So it's ok for the US to have nationalist economic policies, but not Mexico? And making sweeping statements about immigrants is not cool, not all of it goes back to Mexico. There are families of illegal immigrants living in the US.
 
I thought right wing fuckwits were in favor of free market economics? I thought that was the principle behind NAFTA, which is the bulk of the reason why we have so many people wanting to immigrate in the first place. But I guess we only support free market principles when it benefits AMERICAAAAA.
congratulations you've just figured out what's wrong with the American Right.

At least acknowledge my valid point about NAFTA? By striking down Mexican protectionism, you've crippled the growth of Mexican industry and agriculture which is why we have so many people wanting to immigrate in the first place
Let's talk about NAFTA for a bit - one of the most laughable statements anyone can make is that it is in any way "free market".

For one thing, NAFTA actually increased tariffs in many cases, for example, it applied protectionist tariffs on Canadian suits because of their lower tariffs on wool (as an aside, Canada and other "Euro-socialist" countries are in many ways more free-market than the United States...maybe THAT'S why they're doing better :D). In addition, "free trade" in terms of agriculture is kind of a misnomer when subsidized American agribusiness can dump cheap food on Mexican markets, running Mexican agriculture out of business.

There's a lot more wrong with NAFTA, but just realize it's not what any real libertarian would call "free market". (besides, would something that is "free market" need bureaucracies layered on bureaucracies?)
 
Uh, you claim they have rights that you don't. Thus, they have more rights then you. Thus, is invalid.
This is stupid that you would even choose this as your point to argue. Of all the material you choose to argue what i meant by what i said. As if you can read my mind. Pitiful.
But just because they have something i don't doesn't mean i have less than them. I guess i could total up what rights i have as a citizen that an illegal immigrant does not but the whole exercise seems pointless and honestly you are not making a point at all. I didn't claim they had more rights than me. You are drawing assumptions where you shouldn't be.
 

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