The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Yoz]

But as I said earlier, considering the usage of Tyranitar and Scizor, both completely ruining Salamence after stealth rocks and SandStream/Bullet Punch + Salamence's Life Orb. Sure he is powerful, but there are enough OU pokemon to handle him.

I would disagree, sure TTar/Scizor can deal with him, but then we get into the argument that it is overcentralising and I would disagree that there are nough OU pokemon to handle him.

As he does not have a counter (or even a situational counter) he can hit anything very hard with many of his varying sets (which make him even harder to counter) this usually means he can always (without much effort at all) kill one poke and cripple another so as to get KO'ed by the next poke. This is without even playing skillfully, if one was to play skillfully, Mence can decimate teams, tearing holes in the enemy team. Yes you may say he can be revenge killed, but that means nothing if he just switches out and a counter to the poke that was meant to kill him with Ice shard etc. dies.

Sure Dnite is very similar, but the fact he is lacking in Speed and and offense, and makes up for it with Bulk is detrimental. Especially as Ice is a very common attacking move and usually can OHKO him or at least severely cripple him. Therefore he must always be played offensively to counter his ice weakness and can never take full advantage of his stats, something Mence can do. This is why Dnite will probably not be Suspect IMO.

I have been playing Suspect 24/7 since it came out, till about a couple of days ago. I would disagree there is that much Stall, sure it is more than OU, but OU is offensive to the extreme. Besides, if you cannot break most stall you should go back to the drawing board as that shows a serious question about your skills.
Also, within Suspect, most Dnites, tend to be CBNite, which is easily taken advantage. In fact, I would go ahead and say that ScarfGon is more of a dangerous threat in Suspect.

If you cannot break stall, like players have done in previous generations with your current tactics and strategy, go remake your team and use old sets like CBTar and TyraniBoah for example, like we have done for a long time. These have proven effective in the past, and should remain so.

IMHO, a metagame without Mence is far more balanced and fun to play and I would suggest many of you, who are commenting about Mence in here, to go try Suspect out and see for yourselves. However, I would advise you not to come back here whining that there is too much Stall, yes most dislike stall, but at least put in effort into breaking it.

For me, Mence IS broken.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Personally, I don't think Salamence should be Uber, for a couple reasons. One, he doesn't have the typing or defenses to last throughout the match. The top two Pokemon of OU, scizor and tyranitar, can both beat salamence, and there's a massive chance that your opponent will have one, or even both, on his team. Scizor simply beats mence with bullet punch, and scarftar outruns the mixed versions, while his sandstream makes the DDer less effective. Also, i can't stress enough how quickly salamence gets worn down by residual damage, be it SR (on EVERY team), LO (the most common mence item) or SS (second most common pokemons ability, not to mention hippowdon, who can also stop mence, and has instant recovery). I feel that the most threatening mence set is the DDer, who is best dealt with in two ways. One, let residual damage build up on it. Second, revenge it. The thing about salamence is that you don't neccessarily need to sac a pokemon to revenge it. It can be done simply by clever playing. For example, on the DD, i send in something that will bait mence into outrage (gyarados, flygon or any other dragon). Then i send in my steel and kill it, in my case normally registeel or metagross ( god i love those pokes). So salamence can be dealt with, mainly just thanks to SR. I also think that we should wait a little longer after just having banned latias to try out mence more in the new metagame. Oh yeah one more thing. He can basically be revenged by anything with over 100 base speed, like azelf. Just lure in an EQ, or DD

Edit: i have to say, i honestly consider Bronzong (my favourite set is OTR) and Hippowdon (mainly because of insane defense, SS and instant recovery) to be salamence counters. Even donphan works to an extent

 

[Spika]

When I heard about this I just wanted to ROFL a bit. So I did. Except, I did it more than a bit. I did it a lot.

Salamence...? Uber? I understand Garchomp being Uber. Garchomp is... infinitely more powerful than Salamence. This, in my opinion, is just ridiculous.

First Garchomp (good riddance), then Latias, and now Salamence? I rarely even use him, but I still think getting rid of him is idiotic. Stealth Rock is on almost every team and it just obliterates him, Roost or no. You can usually predict a Roost anyway. Ehhh.

Dragonite will never be Suspect. I'll quit life if he ever is. I've been watching games and he's just NOT that dangerous. I agree @ ScarfGon is more of a dangerous threat in Suspect as well. Sure, the ExtremeSpeed variant is nice, but Ice is too prevalent.


Bahhhhhhhhhumbug. You see, OU is NOT based around Mence. You don't build a team TO STOP mence. You can't compare him to Garchomp. A Revenge Killer Pokemon is NOT to made to JUST stop Mence. It's made to stop a plethora of Pokemon that need to be revenge killed based on what your team is weak against.

Yeah, Mence is powerful. But what. Are we going to make Dragons illegal in OU?

Altaria, I choose you!

That's going to be fun. Sure Mence helps break down stall, but it's not JUST him. People are changing their teams up a LOT with Mence gone, so it's not just the fact that he's not being used, it's the fact that a LOT of other Pokemon aren't being used or aren't being used in the same ways.

If I was one of the people who could have a chance to vote, which I won't be, I'd vote for him to stay OU. Nobody would use him in Uber. He'd a BL between OU and Uber. Ridiculous. Everyone would pick Garchomp over Salamence.

 

[Yoz]

Personally, I don't think Salamence should be Uber, for a couple reasons. One, he doesn't have the typing or defenses to last throughout the match. The top two Pokemon of OU, scizor and tyranitar, can both beat salamence, and there's a massive chance that your opponent will have one, or even both, on his team. Scizor simply beats mence with bullet punch, and scarftar outruns the mixed versions, while his sandstream makes the DDer less effective. Also, i can't stress enough how quickly salamence gets worn down by residual damage, be it SR (on EVERY team), LO (the most common mence item) or SS (second most common pokemons ability, not to mention hippowdon, who can also stop mence, and has instant recovery). I feel that the most threatening mence set is the DDer, who is best dealt with in two ways. One, let residual damage build up on it. Second, revenge it. The thing about salamence is that you don't neccessarily need to sac a pokemon to revenge it. It can be done simply by clever playing. For example, on the DD, i send in something that will bait mence into outrage (gyarados, flygon or any other dragon). Then i send in my steel and kill it, in my case normally registeel or metagross ( god i love those pokes). So salamence can be dealt with, mainly just thanks to SR. I also think that we should wait a little longer after just having banned latias to try out mence more in the new metagame. Oh yeah one more thing. He can basically be revenged by anything with over 100 base speed, like azelf. Just lure in an EQ, or DD

Edit: i have to say, i honestly consider Bronzong (my favourite set is OTR) and Hippowdon (mainly because of insane defense, SS and instant recovery) to be salamence counters. Even donphan works to an extent

I think that many people forget that Salamence has Roost, a common move carried by most Mences. This can negate ALL SR and SS damage. So although he maybe very easily worn down through residual damage. He can also very easily recover.
Also, many Hippowdon sets lack ice fang/toxic and usually carry Roar, therefore, although Mence can be roared away, I do not feel he is a counter. I would also not consider Bronzong a counter as many sets have Fire Blast/EQ. Anyway, most people probably would never keep Mence in vs either of them, as usually there are better ways to deal with them.

Also these sort of pokes are very Stall related, hence the over-centralising argument comes into play again.

Edit:

That's going to be fun. Sure Mence helps break down stall, but it's not JUST him. People are changing their teams up a LOT with Mence gone, so it's not just the fact that he's not being used, it's the fact that a LOT of other Pokemon aren't being used or aren't being used in the same ways.

If I understood right, this would mean that because of Mence, many pokes are not being used, enter over-centralising argument. AGAIN!

Edit2:

Nobody would use him in Uber. He'd a BL between OU and Uber. Ridiculous. Everyone would pick Garchomp over Salamence.

It is not about whether something does well in Uber, but rather how it does in OU. Uber is a ban list for OU so even if a poke there does awful (for eg. wynaut) does not mean it is not broken in Standard Play. So please do not compare, we all agree Chomp/Latias/Quaza are a mile better however it is irrelevent.

lol final Edit:

You can usually predict a Roost anyway. Ehhh.

That does not mean you can stop it, or even negate it.

 

[scarloc]

i'm new to this but i think salamnce should go up to uber. despite the fact this will be the 3rd dragon gone and ice shard will become none existent as only dragonite and flygon need to be kept in check (both of which have a lower attack stats). infernape will soon become a major threat as mence kept physical one in check.

i think that mence in uber will give the metagame a much needed change rather than just stall and occasinally balanced and weather. once mence goes we can enjoy a metagame of GEN IV as we are no longer needed to go stall. obviously this will change with GEN V. so send mence up to uers, but wait for genV and see what happens

 

[Little Battler]

First... Uber status is not determined by power in ubers... did this come from my stupid argument at the last suspect test? meh...

okay, now to topic

An OU metagame without salamence... will it be more centralizing or not? From the posts I have seen so far, it seems that without the premier wall breaker / sweeper, the metagame turns into a stallfest with FWG cores. I have yet to play suspect, but here are my thoughts.

Salamence, the fat dragon (no offense dragonite) that surprisingly has speed (slaking : me too!) and power to break through walls and sweep teams whole. It can be used either to plug holes in teams or simply as a sweeper. The latter is more often seen than the former. In that case, I shall see our beloved mence as an offensive threat.

Salamence possesses high attack and above average special attack, which allows it to attack from both stats, which set is better known as MixMence. This particular set I have found devastating, as a Draco Meteor can weaken and even kill lots of specially frail things that might wall mence physically, making it rather hard to stop. Then, we have the DDMence with brutal power and speed, wrecking through both bulky and frail pokemons alike. Not to mention the wide movepool of mence, enabling it to cover lots of threats and counters at once. Scizor comes in? Fire blast the bug. More afraid of Tyranitar? Use earthquake. Of course, this means that Mence has got the ol' 4 moveslot syndrome, especially if you're considering the DDroost set.

Not only is it impressive offensively, mence can also be used defensively as well, as it is fairly bulky, and it has roost. It will be one hell of a bulky pokemon that hits back quite hard as well. Taking down the fat thing will be pretty hard.

Okay, so I've covered the strong points of salamence, now for the weak points.

Stealth rock, or "The Mence Bane". It is truly one of the main reason why mence has been allowed to stay in the OU for so long, since taking 25% damage from every switch in severely cripples it. But wait, what if SR is not set up. Perhaps your lead got taunted by ol' Dactyl, or a Foretress spinned away your rocks? That's not good. That's why we have Rotoms everywhere nowadays, to keep the rocks in place, therefore stopping Salamence from switching freely. While mence is not the only factor that comes into mind when putting in a spin blocker, it sure is one big factor, and centralizes the metagame a bit by forcing spinners / spin blockers to support / cripple it.

Next, Ice weakness. We all know dragons hate Ice, and that most dragons are 4x weak to ice. Ice type pokemons might be rare, but the moves sure pop up everywhere, ranging from HP ice to icebeam, most commonly paired with TBolt. It's not mence's fault that ice moves are so overused though, Ice can be used to hit flygon, our beloved scout dragon, For Massive Damage, or rip nite to pieces. The ice weakness pretty much detracts points from its "uberness" stat.

One thing that makes mence stand out from other OU pokes though, is that its hard to counter. As far as I know, we have no surefire counter to mence, only checks (and pory2 for some variants), which are not reliable when hit with DM, found on the dangerous MixMence. This means that, once the fat dragon gains momentum, it hits like a train and is very hard to stop.

Another thing that makes me think that mence should be uber is its unpredictability. When I see a Mence, my brain goes like "Okay, so the fat salamander appears, what will it do, DM? DD? Outrage?". It's very hard to guess what set Mence is carrying, and what role it is. I once lost a match because I thought the mence was a sweeper when it was actually a wall.

In conclusion (TL;DR), mence should be uber because :
1. sheer brute power from both ends of attacks.
2. lack of reliable counter
3. unpredictability.

sorry if you find my writing a bit lacking, but my sig explains all I guess.

 

[jumpluff]

I think that many people forget that Salamence has Roost, a common move carried by most Mences. This can negate ALL SR and SS damage. So although he maybe very easily worn down through residual damage. He can also very easily recover.
Also, many Hippowdon sets lack ice fang/toxic and usually carry Roar, therefore, although Mence can be roared away, I do not feel he is a counter. I would also not consider Bronzong a counter as many sets have Fire Blast/EQ. Anyway, most people probably would never keep Mence in vs either of them, as usually there are better ways to deal with them.

This is sort of a point. While Roost is often overlooked in the way people approach Salamence (wearing them down), it also forces Salamence to sacrifice coverage. Dragon Dance Roost is stuck against the likes of Skarmory, or else Heatran, Empoleon, etc. Classic MixMence has to sacrifice Outrage for Roost (and before Outrage, Salamence was awesome, but I don't think it was broken at all). Furthermore, Roost is only seen on a quarter of Salamence, not at all 'most'. In April, the detailed stats say:

| Salamence  | Move         | Roost            |    25.5 |

I do agree though that Roost is an overlooked factor, since Salamence's frailty and worse-than-Infernape longevity is a common argument against its potential brokenness.

 

[Cherub Agent]

fact is , at least in my experience, few salamence have used roost successfuly against me. Sure they may have the move, but finding a time to use it can sometimes be difficult, and obviously with roost salamence gets hard counters, like skarm and zong.

 

[Yoz]

I would agree with you Jumpluff and Cherub Agent, but then we come to the point mentioned above, it's incredible versitilty, how are you meant to know whether it has Roost or Fire Blast, Outrage or EQ. You simply cannot. Therefore, although you may counter one set with say Zong and another with Hippodon as suggested earlier, but you cannot counter all sets, plus having these pokes on your team usually means you lose much offensive power. But the big problem is that if you decide to go for a Stall team with these pokes in order to make a more efficient team, Mence can just rip through the rest of your team as he is so famous in doing.

 

[Vratix]

Edit2: It is not about whether something does well in Uber, but rather how it does in OU. Uber is a ban list for OU so even if a poke there does awful (for eg. wynaut) does not mean it is not broken in Standard Play. So please do not compare, we all agree Chomp/Latias/Quaza are a mile better however it is irrelevent.

Not that I necessarily disagree with some of the other points you made (even though I think it should stay OU), I just wanted to point out that Wynaut is a flawed example.

Wynaut is only Uber because of an older tier system that matched every NFE Pokemon with the tier its final evolution was in. It was never moved down because nobody cares about Wynaut. If it actually belonged in Uber (read here: too good/overcentralizing in OU) it would certainly NOT be allowed in the LC tier.

In other news, I just don't feel that Salamence actually centralizes the current meta-game as badly as some people claim. He is no Shin Akuma with his unstoppable Aerial Fireballs. So what if he doesn't have what you consider a "hard counter" for every possible set. Even if he were (which he most certainly is NOT) guaranteed a KO so are many other Pokemon.
E.g. I use the standard lead Machamp on my mono-fighting team for the Standard ladder. In 38 out of 38 matches it has gotten at least one KO. Usually, one KO and one severe cripple but often 2-3. Is Machamp "broken"? Answer: God no.

I will not waste anyone's time and claim that Salamence is anything less the single most effective sweeper in OU right now. However, he doesn't "over-centralize" as nearly badly as any of the other Pokemon that actually deserved being banned to Uber. Do you remember the Garchomp days. Where teams only had one free slot to work with because every successful team looked something like Garchomp, Garchomp's counter, Garchomp's counter #2, Garchomp's counter's counter, Garchomp's counter's counter #2, Free slot .
That was some serious diversity, amiright?
Salamence is sitting somewhere around 20% usage. If you are that worried about it you can run a CB Mamoswine or an Occa-levi Bronzong. The rest of us are not as worried about one Pokemon with half a dozen (random number pulled out of my butt, but close enough) incredibly competent checks that also function as checks for half of the other sweepers.

 

[Erazor]

You know, if we go by these arguments:

Salamence has two equally viable sets that require completely different checks, thus you can easily switch in <Pokemon> to get raped by Draco Meteor.

Mence requires a sacrifice to revenge kill.

Nothing can switch in safely on Salamence.

Base 135 Atk/DD/Outrage

Base 110 SpAtk/Draco Meteor

Then I honesty don't see why it's Uber and Dragonite is not.

I know that Dragonite has less special attack with which to abuse Draco Meteor, but it still does enough to stuff like Swampert / Stall in general. Face it, MixNite is as good a stall breaker as Mixmence.

The only thing holding Nite back seems to be that 20 speed difference. However, even Salamence doesn't reliably beat the base 100 Scarfers(Jirachi, Flygon), having to rely on a coin flip. So really, the only scarfer that Mence beats that Nite doesn't is Rotom.

So really, all the arguments that are being thrown around for Mence-to-uber are applicable to Dnite as well.

And yes, I know about Intimidate.

 

[Parallel]

From personal expereince, Salamence is not a massive threat. Sure, he can sweep lategame, sure he's powerful. But show me a team without Stone Edge, Thunderbolt and Icebeam?

It's not as if his counters are put in for him, he shares common weaknesses with other threats and so it's natural for a team to have ways to dispose of him.

Heck, i've had bigger sweeps with SD Scizor than i have with DDmence.

 

[Cherub Agent]

mence does NOT require a sacrifice to revenge kill. Stuff like scarf azelf can switch in on a predicted DD or EQ and kill it. You can double switch to a steel to bait mence into outrage and then kill it, like jirachi, scizor, metagross can all pull this off

 

[Lugiamaster26]

If anyone wants my thoughts on this
I personally think Salamence should stay OU as its 1 of the best mixed attackers in the metagame
I admit, I don't claim to know as much as the people of smogon do, but I still believe Salamence should stay OU

 

[lmitchell0012]

Okay, I'll admit that I didn't know that sandstorm nerfed cresellia's moonlight, but I had a feeling that someone was going to mention scizor and tyranitar. Still, even with those two hanging around in OU, is cresellia really that much of a chicken that it can't show up in OU??

 

[Bodofagod]

Ever since I found out about tiering I thought moving Garchomp to ubers was a terrible idea. On My site i made a new tier between OU and UBER called AU for Almost Uber. With this tiering system it takes pokemon like Salamence, Garchomp, Ninjask, Blissey, Metagross, Tyranitar, Breloom, Infernape, and other crazy strong pokemon out of normal play but doesn't jump em to the unusable ubers. I think a AU tier for Smogon would appease a lot of people saving their beloved Garchomp and latias from uber and for the uu/nu players it can take they're overlooked pokemon and maybe bounce them up a tier or 2. All smogon is doing is banning pokemon that require startegy to take down and that takes the fun out of the game. For all the peopve who cannot beat a Salamence or Garchomp have you ever bothered trying a mamoswine's ice shard. IDK about Garchomp but Salamence always is ohko'd by that after stealth rock which mamo can also set. If you ban salamence you'll keep banning pokemon. After Salamence is gone, tyranitar might be to strong for ou, then infernape might be to strong for ou, then lucario might be to strong for ou. Pokemon that are hard to beat make the game funner (especially since i'm a nu/uu battler). I have no problem with Salamence, I have ample amounts of Salamence counters that aren't even ou like ludicolo. You've just got to have predicition. UBERS is meant for legendaries and thats how it should stay. I have no problem if you want to ban rayquaza grouduon or dialga just leave garchomp and salamence out of the light of the ban hammer!

 

[Cherub Agent]

they're banned because they're broken. They require multiple team slots just to deal with a single pokemon. Garchomp has the speed, bulk, and power to plow through any OU team. However, i agree with you that salamence is NOT broken. It's strong and unpredictable, but blenty of things are faster or bulky enough to take it out

 

[Bodofagod]

Its called mamoswine!!! stabbed ice shard ohko's every salamence and i havent battled enough garchomps for an honest answer to that but i'm pretty sure ice shard can without a yache berry, and avalanche probably would even with yache berry (but once again don't hold me to that, this topics about salamence not garchomp which i know ice shard ohko's)

 

[mrguy888]

Ever since I found out about tiering I thought moving Garchomp to ubers was a terrible idea. On My site i made a new tier between OU and UBER called AU for Almost Uber. With this tiering system it takes pokemon like Salamence, Garchomp, Ninjask(lol), Blissey, Metagross, Tyranitar, Breloom, Infernape, and other crazy strong pokemon out of normal play but doesn't jump em to the unusable ubers.

So you want to take all of the OU pokemon and but them in AU then call UU OU. Rather pointless...

I think a AU tier for Smogon would appease a lot of people saving their beloved Garchomp and latias from uber and for the uu/nu players it can take they're overlooked pokemon and maybe bounce them up a tier or 2.

Garchomp is very uber so he won't make the cut for this AU. Latias wouldn't either.

All smogon is doing is banning pokemon that require startegy to take down and that takes the fun out of the game.

Smogon is actually banning the Pokemon that take the fun out of the game. Why would they try to make Pokemon less fun? That makes no sense.

For all the peopve who cannot beat a Salamence or Garchomp have you ever bothered trying a mamoswine's ice shard. IDK about Garchomp but Salamence always is ohko'd by that after stealth rock which mamo can also set.

Garchomp + Yache berry=dead Mamoswine. Salamence is OHKOed by a Delibird Ice shard. Any ice attacks really. Salamence is very beatable.

If you ban salamence you'll keep banning pokemon. After Salamence is gone, tyranitar might be to strong for ou, then infernape might be to strong for ou, then lucario might be to strong for ou. Pokemon that are hard to beat make the game funner (especially since i'm a nu/uu battler). I have no problem with Salamence, I have ample amounts of Salamence counters that aren't even ou like ludicolo.

You need rain up or Ludicolo is 2HKOed even if it comes in on an earthquake. Outrage OHKOs so DDmence kills it too.

You've just got to have predicition. UBERS is meant for legendaries and thats how it should stay.

No ubers is meant for any Pokemon decided too powerful to be in OU.

I have no problem if you want to ban rayquaza grouduon or dialga just leave garchomp and salamence out of the light of the ban hammer!

 

[TehYoshi]

Everyone keeps talking about using Mamoswine or Weavile to Ice Shard a Salamence to death, or countering with with Cresselia or Porygon-2.

Keep in mind that Mamoswine and Weavile were both, in April, used less than Electivire in OU Shoddy. Even more along this line, Cresselia and Porygon-2 were both used less than Ludicolo.

Some of the pokemon people suggest using to successfully counter Mence are very rare, and don't have much use for other sweepers / are very easily stopped. What's your CB Mamoswine or Weavile going to do besides kill off Mence/DNite/Flygons? Mamoswine's only strong move is EQ, which is easily predicted and forces out Mamoswine using a switch to a flying-type / Levitater. Weavile doesn't have any strong attacks or good coverage anyway, and can really only be used to revenge kill stuff like Gengars and Starmies with CB Pursuit, which is done better by ScarfTar who also has Crunch/EQ/SE/Superpower to back him up.

Cresselia is picked off easily by Pursuit, and can't really threaten much of anything due to its mediocre attacking prowess. Porygon-2's defenses aren't exactly stellar, being good mostly for Tracing back Intimidates onto pokemon like Mence and Gyarados, and I've seen near none on standard.

If there are no rocks out, for situations where the lead was Taunted / hazards were spun away (which is quite often in my experiences with a Taunting Azelf lead) then Salamence fears switching out that much less.

EDIT: Seriously, why is everyone talking about Mamoswine now? Totally a popular and reliable choice for any OU team that can counter plenty of threats, right? Nope. CB Mamo has an extremely powerful EQ, yes, but besides that, it has no really good secondary STAB (Ice Shard can pick off weakened pokemon, I guess). And once it EQs into any flying pokemon / Levitater, it's got to switch out. Once it kills something with Ice Shard, it's going to have to switch out. There's a good reason why Mamoswine only had a 4.93% usage in April, carried on under 1/20 of teams (and keep in mind this is even less than ELECTIVIRE!)

 

[Rikter]

Honestly with my limited experience the only team I saw on standard using Porygon2 was a Trick Room team which seemed to make Salamence alot harder to use for the most part but even then I was able to throw him out on something that wouldn't KO him and score a kill with DM/Outrage.

 

[Bodofagod]

And you are the perfect example of a shoddy noob. AU isn't taking all the pokemon out of OU. it takes the annoying ones but it leaves a lot more, plus the uu pokemon who are way over looked are moved into there. Garchomp is very strong yes but it makes it fun taking em down. I've never thought Salamence or Garchomp take fun out of the game. I prefer them because not as much thinking is involved when you battle the same pokemon with the same moveset over and over again. Salamence always has a different moveset which requires strategy not just the usual predicition. ludicolo happens to be the most diverse pokemon i've ever seen. Ya it needs rain conditions, but once it was those conditions it's skill goes way outside of uu.

 

[TehYoshi]

So basically you're saying that the top OU pokemon should be removed from OU , and the less used OU pokemon should be merged with UU, which will magically create a lot of diversity. And somehow, instead of the bottom-tier current OU pokemon dominating the new OU, UU pokemon will be able to shine instead? Makes no sense. Ubers are not "unusable", there is an Uber tier. You'll note that Ubers has Kyogre EVERYWHERE, which is the result of Ubers having an extremely small variety of pokemon. The same thing will happen if you make this "AU" tier with only the most-used OU pokemon.

So, make an AU tier that severely lacks diversity (how many OU pokemon that are "annoying ones" do you expect to put in here?) and a mixed OU/UU tier that will just have the current lower-tier OU pokemon become the most used pokemon in that new tier. Or just move all of OU into a new tier, call it AU, and change UU to OU. What's the point of this?

And yes, Ludicolo is only good in rain. Unfortunately, there are no pokemon in Standard that can cause rain as they switch in, so rain teams are going to be hampered by the ever-present Tyranitar (and to a lesser extent Hippowdon)

=I have ample amounts of Salamence counters that aren't even ou like ludicolo.

Yeah, and all they can do is counter Mence/DNite/Flygon and do nothing else, because as you just said they aren't OU, and aren't good for anything else in OU. Ludicolo isn't even a Mence counter, you're going to get 2HKO'ed unless there's rain.

=UBERS is meant for legendaries and thats how it should stay. I have no problem if you want to ban rayquaza grouduon or dialga just leave garchomp and salamence out of the light of the ban hammer!

Didn't realize you were a top member who could decide what went in Ubers :/

 

[Cherub Agent]

hypothetically speaking, about mamoswine, why couldn't you just use a LO set. Strike the flyer back with a SE or ice shard when they switch into EQ. The recoil won't even show since EQ has no effect...

 

[Hcapt]

So basically you're saying that the top OU pokemon should be removed from OU , and the less used OU pokemon should be merged with UU, which will magically create a lot of diversity. And somehow, instead of the bottom-tier current OU pokemon dominating the new OU, UU pokemon will be able to shine instead? Makes no sense. Ubers are not "unusable", there is an Uber tier. You'll note that Ubers has Kyogre EVERYWHERE, which is the result of Ubers having an extremely small variety of pokemon. The same thing will happen if you make this "AU" tier with only the most-used OU pokemon.

So, make an AU tier that severely lacks diversity (how many OU pokemon that are "annoying ones" do you expect to put in here?) and a mixed OU/UU tier that will just have the current lower-tier OU pokemon become the most used pokemon in that new tier. Or just move all of OU into a new tier, call it AU, and change UU to OU. What's the point of this?

And yes, Ludicolo is only good in rain. Unfortunately, there are no pokemon in Standard that can cause rain as they switch in, so rain teams are going to be hampered by the ever-present Tyranitar (and to a lesser extent Hippowdon)

I want an AU tier.

A place where no one can complain about my Tyranitar/Metagross/Garchomp/Salamence/Latios/Wobbuffet (if it's allowed) team without anyone complaining and without having to worry about bans.

I vote for AU tier

(I should point out that I have not regretted my decision to start playing Ubers, and feel the speed/tempo of the matches more than compensates for the lack of diversity.)