Wouldn't the ladder only being open for 6ish days affect the stats in this sort of way? I really don't want any kind of debate over this, but I really think that the reason there weren't more Pokemon used [and some were used 30%+] was because there were less than 1/2 (probably) of the battles fought on Standard, and that probably really skews the stats.
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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Just want to refute these claims.
NPApe:
+2 Grass Knot vs. Standard Vaporeon: 67.9%-79.9%
+2 Grass Knot vs. BulkyDD Gyarados: 39.5%-46.5%
+2 Grass Knot vs. Crocune: 64.4%-75.7%
Vaporeon can deal with anything but +2 Close Combat (or switching in on a Close Combat from the 252 atk mixed set - it does force Infernape to use a second Close Combat, though).
As already stated, Infernape's large movepool gets it a lot of surprise factor, but unlike Salamence, who can click either Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, or Earthquake and fire away, Infernape needs to pack specific moves for specific threats.
And @SJCrew, although I am pro-Uber, I would have to agree with the others that Stealth Rock is much more likely to be on the field than off the field. Sandstorm isn't a sure thing, but Stealth Rock is simply impossible to always keep off the field.
Haunter said we have to remain on topic to the testing in Suspect and Standard ladder w/o Latias, that's why we dropped it. It's useless theorymon to the situation, and a pokemon cannot be a counter if it's 2HKO'd by the single move that makes the pokemon broken in the first place (+0 Life Orb Dragon Dance Outrage).
We should hold off on some of the discussion for a couple weeks even due to the lack of reliable data, given only 6 days worth of battles on suspect were presented. Please do comment on your suspect and OU battles though that you have had, as those are still relevant.
I mean't Focus Blast dude. GK was specifically mentioned for Gyara. Furthermore, your Bulky DD calcs are withholding Nasty plot. It's supposed to be (78.6% - 92.7%)
Yo, we supposed to talking 'bout mence. Get back on topic, and to talk about leads, Mence has the offensive scares to stop a metagross dead in it's tracks, I know this, from back in the day (e.g. recently) when Mence wasn't suspect.
Salamence, as well as Latias, isn't really such a problem for me. There will always be powerful OU Pokémon that many people find difficult to counter. Salamence shouldn't become Uber. If I can adapt my team (only three are OU) to counter these threats, I can’t see why others can’t. Just my opinion by the way…
Again, most people argue that as "centralizing" the metagame. However, how about we make a it a necessity for everybody to have a mence in their team? Would that prove to be "uncentralizing" the metagame?
I don't do it all the time, but even if I did, you can rest assured that 90% of the people you face will either attack right away or switch to Swampert/Suicune. Getting up SR against Aero is futile, you usually have to kill it first.
No, I can Taunt/SR in every single case besides Metagross and enemy Aero, which are the only times in which I'm required to predict "perfectly" just to keep rocks out. If the SR user isn't their lead, it's even easier for Salamence to get in because it you usually means you get to come in and revenge their Machamp anti-lead or whatever.
[quot]eAccording to you, predicting 100% perfectly is completely unreasonable when dealing with Salamence... So why do you take your own perfect prediction more or less for granted here?[/QUOTE]
The consequences of not predicting properly for the one or two Pokemon that might be able to get Stealth Rock up on Aero are not the same as facing Salamence and being wrong about what variant it is or what attack it'll use.
I'm not ruling Stealth Rock out of the equation, I'm saying that you can't use it as a makeshift counter for Salamence, claiming that residual damage will do all the work without you having to find a solid way to beat it (you still haven't presented one btw, besides switching constantly and hoping you can get a random check in without getting KOed).
Oh, my bad on the Bulky DD calc. I didn't think anyone used Focus Blast ever, though. 30% chance of wasting your setup turn AND losing your sweeper. That's another issue with NPApe. Sweeping with 85% and 70% accuracy moves isn't going to get you too far without seriously good luck. Again, Infernape can run plenty of sets, but it can't carry answers to all of its checks like Salamence can. If you look at the analysis for Infernape, it says things like "If you opt for Grass Knot, you lose the ability to 1hko ScarfTran, but if you opt for Vaccuum Wave, you don't have a reliable answer to bulky waters," etc.
I'm not actually going to play "My Lead vs Your Lead" with you because it's pointless theorymon; You might stop SR, you might not, it all depends, there are heaps of ways those opening turns could turn out. Saying "oh but i do this, and then this if they do that" is just a really rubbish argument and I'm sorry but you're looking pretty daft for going that route with your response.
And your arguments aren't much better, by the way; You've listed a set of reasons why Salamence is good, and then resorted to claims that are either blatantly false (ie. "He gets a kill every game!") or exaggerated beyond truth (ie. "You've got to predict like a God!"). There are some people who have made compelling arguments for Salamence's Uber status in this thread; You, with your weak arguments that really just boil down to "man he's hard to beat", are not one of them.
In this thread I've argued that at any given time, there is enough information available to the player to predict - with at least some degree of accuracy - the type of Salamence the opponent is using, and the attack it is most likely use, through which the player can then attempt to beat it while expending minimal resources. You can tack on negative connotations like "hope" and "random" to my position if you like, but know that such a representation of my arguments is not only dishonest, it's also completely wrong.SJCrew said:
And your arguments aren't much better, by the way; You've listed a set of reasons why Salamence is good, and then resorted to claims that are either blatantly false (ie. "He gets a kill every game!") or exaggerated beyond truth (ie. "You've got to predict like a God!"). There are some people who have made compelling arguments for Salamence's Uber status in this thread; You, with your weak arguments that really just boil down to "man he's hard to beat", are not one of them.
What if I lead with Salamence? It was a very popular lead early on in DP. What exactly do you do in that situation? You have zero information other than it is leading, and that doesn't exactly tell you much.
On the suspect ladder, if I see a Dragonite, I know it's going to be slower than most of my checks, so I have a little more cushion for error. Plus, a Lead Dragonite has a fairly predictable moveset (Extremespeed is on nearly every one), so I don't have much to worry about what set it could be running.
On the suspect ladder, if I see a Dragonite, I know it's going to be slower than most of my checks, so I have a little more cushion for error. Plus, a Lead Dragonite has a fairly predictable moveset (Extremespeed is on nearly every one), so I don't have much to worry about what set it could be running.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
It's funny that you still miss the point after he explicitly defined it for you. So here it is again:
Common battle conditions or not, you cannot rely on a Rocks weakness to be the one answer you have for Mence.SJCrew said:
I'll bring up this point that you made earlier:
That is not a ballsy move. It's called a well played feint. The existence of good competitive players means that you still can't predict a Mence even when it should be painfully obvious. He could be bluffing, or he might not be.
That aside I don't think you can base his tiering off of how people play Mence, but how rather how he affects the game. It's not about being right or wrong. It's the fact that he forces the decision, and that he forces it when you're building the team itself, and not in game. Because if you aren't packing the right tools, you won't bring him down, and he will plow through most of your team. That shows raw power that fits into the Offensive Characteristic. I mean let's think. If it weren't for the fact that the Metagame wasn't already established around the very powerful Dragon Type, how do you think Mence would fair? Say we let him loose on the Suspect Ladder Meta. What do you think would happen?
Of course, that's a flawed argument in that people built their teams there without Mence in mind, but one must remember the deck is heavily stacked against him by virtue of typing. By virtue of the fact that 3 out of the 5 previous suspects so far in 4th gen have been Dragon Type. The Meta has been so shifted that every team must carry answers to that type (i.e. a Bulky Water and a Steel). That's no excuse though. I think it speaks for itself that even with a meta that has built in checks to his very typing that he is still considered the highest threat in pokemon.
Again with the "man he's hard to beat" arguments. The point is not whether he is hard to beat or not. A lot of things even in Ubers can be beaten by OU pokemon given the right circumstances. And usually, with that much power on the field, most people will carry "the right circumstances." Hell, Offensive Zapdos OHKOs and outspeeds Specs Kyogre with Thunder. ScarfDos Outspeeds and OHKOs ScarfOgre 82% of the time with rocks. It's ability to be beaten by checks does not affect it's Uber status. It's ability to be countered DOES. Frankly with that much power on the field, checks will rise, and an Uber pokemon can be beaten. Just ask Latias... It was countered hard by ScarfTar and BandScizor. Only problem was the Specs set was able to overcome even those on the switch. That's one set that can beat it's COUNTERS. Mence can't necesarily boast the same ability*, but he can beat his checks.
*That partially has to do with the fact that his counter has never really needed to be overcome in the first place, so a set for it has not been invented.
I'm sure a 2+ NP Grass Knot from an Infernape will do a lot more than what Efemera posted. This is the one with max SpA EVs right?
edit: NP ape OHKOs Gyarados after SR damage and OHKOs Crocune (after a NP), so Bulky Waters aren't the best answer for NP ape (Tentacruel can switch in, although he should do so early-game)
edit: NP ape OHKOs Gyarados after SR damage and OHKOs Crocune (after a NP), so Bulky Waters aren't the best answer for NP ape (Tentacruel can switch in, although he should do so early-game)
He gave other points to state an answer for Salamence than just rocks.
If consider the Top 2 leads (Azelf and Aerodactyl), Mence isn't going to be winning very often. Azelf would just set up Stealth Rock, eat a Draco Meteor and live due to Sash, then just blow up in your face. If you set up DD, well, same thing happens. Aerodactyl does the same thing, although it probably won't kill you with Rock Slide, but will do so much that Mence isn't going to be functioning for much longer. Okay, let's look at the other leads: Swampert would just OHKO you with Ice Beam or Avalanche while surviving anything you throw at it, Metagross can survive a hit from Mence and Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch you to death, Machamp is just a royal pain, and if it has Ice Punch, you're gone too, Jirachi can Flinch hax you, U-Turn on you to something else, or Thunder Wave you for the lols. Lead Infernape loses to Mence, but you can't stop it getting up SR and Faking you Out in the process, and on the way, you've just revealed what Mence is running. Ninjask would pass Speed Boosts like it always does unless your Mence is for some reason running Roar, TTar would OHKO you with Stone Edge while surviving a hit from Mence (If even barely), and Shuca Heatran can survive an EQ and set up SR or just blow up you. Not a great lead.
Starmie and essentially any decently powered Choice User beats Infernape, simply because of its bad typing (Fire/Fighting resists nothing useful) combined with weak defenses.
I'm on the fence right now. I do like the Suspect metagame, but at the same time dunno if Salamence is truly that uber.
Blissey can go to hell, though. I'd rather face Salamence all day than that pink abomination >_>
Why the hell are we still talking about Infernape, his defensive stats are so pathetic that he can't take any neutral hit well AT ALL, and his coverage is limited by his choice of moves. Whereas Salamence CAN take neutral hits [more so than Infernape], and gets better than perfect coverage, that is it can hit anything with STAB or a Super Effective attack. Not to mention his Attack AND SpA stats are both higher.
@Dura, don't refer so often to Choice Scarf/Band revenge killers, it gives your opponent a free switch in, knowing exactly what you will do [move/switch], and is not an effective check. As I have said before, almost anything with a Choice Scarf can revenge anything >.>
@Dura, don't refer so often to Choice Scarf/Band revenge killers, it gives your opponent a free switch in, knowing exactly what you will do [move/switch], and is not an effective check. As I have said before, almost anything with a Choice Scarf can revenge anything >.>
I never said it was, so... what's your point?
It's not a "well played feint" if the opponent Swampert just uses Ice Beam and kills him. It's a complete risk that the Salamence player has no control over; He has to hope that the Swampert takes the bait, and if he doesn't, Salamence is fucked. That's the very definition of high risk/high reward. Are you really trying to tell me that it isn't?
Furthermore, the whole argument here is flawed because of your implicit assumption that the Swampert player isn't as good as the Salamence player. Yes, a competitively played Salamence might go for this feint, but a competitively played Swampert might see through it.
If you really don't think that DDing in front of a Swampert is a ballsy move then... play more Pokemon, because you're wrong.
Oh, not this nonsense again. The same could be said of any top-tier OU threat. If you don't prepare for things, they tend to kill you... that's kind of how the game works. Or do you think we should ban Heatran because he can plow through your team unless you're prepared for him?
Not being prepared is your fault, not Salamence's, and "forcing you to prepare for it" is a trait shared by pretty much everything in OU. Not a convincing point, I'm afraid.
lol what? nobody seriously talks about hard counters anymore, do you play pokemon?TheValkyries said:
k, going to ignore everyone who is still arguing about the status of mence..your opinion doesnt matter unless you make council anyways.
standard ladder: played like 20-30 games today, my salamence only swept once and I was never swept by a mence, scarftar died down big time since latias ban. Which was expected, I still havent seen anything unique or a new popular pokemon, but the metagame is developing so w/e.
suspect: sub zapdos is the best..that is all really. np ape can be a pain at times if counters are hurt, pretty much every offensive based team runs scarfed flygon. im not seeing as much stall on suspect as i did the first week or so
i still prefer standard metagame over suspect, but not because of mence
standard ladder: played like 20-30 games today, my salamence only swept once and I was never swept by a mence, scarftar died down big time since latias ban. Which was expected, I still havent seen anything unique or a new popular pokemon, but the metagame is developing so w/e.
suspect: sub zapdos is the best..that is all really. np ape can be a pain at times if counters are hurt, pretty much every offensive based team runs scarfed flygon. im not seeing as much stall on suspect as i did the first week or so
i still prefer standard metagame over suspect, but not because of mence
As soon as I realised that your very first rebuttal was again arguing a point that I didn't make, I just gave up and didn't bother with the rest. Follow that strand of the debate backwards and see where it started; You'll realise that your response is irrelevant.Shizzle said:
@Haunter, I think you accidently removed a bit too much of my post, Ill fix it up
SubVersion, once again you are taking it personally, I AM SAYING IT TO EVERY BLOODY PERSON WHO SAYS THAT SR IS A HUGE FACTOR IN DEALING WITH SALAMENCE, WHICH IT IS, having vs not having rocks down is a huge issue, I am not saying directly to you that its a big issue, but if you don't have Stealth Rock down, then how exactly are you going to get about dealing with Salamence, it makes the task much harder!
SubVersion, once again you are taking it personally, I AM SAYING IT TO EVERY BLOODY PERSON WHO SAYS THAT SR IS A HUGE FACTOR IN DEALING WITH SALAMENCE, WHICH IT IS, having vs not having rocks down is a huge issue, I am not saying directly to you that its a big issue, but if you don't have Stealth Rock down, then how exactly are you going to get about dealing with Salamence, it makes the task much harder!
... You quoted me. Was I not supposed to think you were talking to me? I'm not sure you understand how forums work.
SR is a huge issue, yes. It's a common battle condition that needs to be factored in to any decision about Salamence's tiering. But at no point have I suggested that "SR should be the only counter you have to Salamence"; TheValkyrie seemed to think I had, and so I was responding to him. Of course SR shouldn't be your only Salamence counter-measure.
SR is a huge issue, yes. It's a common battle condition that needs to be factored in to any decision about Salamence's tiering. But at no point have I suggested that "SR should be the only counter you have to Salamence"; TheValkyrie seemed to think I had, and so I was responding to him. Of course SR shouldn't be your only Salamence counter-measure.
Well, from MY experiances, Mence is easy. I fought unskilled players using Mence twice. Both sent it in to break my Gengar's sub, and both were 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball. I suppose, on the prediction issue, Substitute can work well.
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