The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Chou Toshio]

Then consider that a card game should be played best 2 out of 3. No matter how you look at it, Stall is far more tolerable in a game like Pokemon.

When you play card games, there isn't 30 seconds of just waiting for animation sequences (45 seconds if there's sand, leftovers, burn/poison damage, etc?). There's only waiting for thinking.

Stall v. Stall between two really good players could easily go on for a couple hours on DS.

Anyway, when it comes to a game like Go or Chess where there are professional players, a professional league, and the game is taken to the most serious degree, then I don't see taking 2-3 days to finish one game as being unreasonable.

Pokemon is pretty much just for fun . . .

 

[Baldafor]

Pokemon is pretty much just for fun . . .

Welcome to the Smogon Community, a place for competitive Pokemon players to meet and discuss the competitive Pokemon scene!

On the suspect ladder, I have seen a major shift towards using stall teams, but not a major shift in those teams winning games. I think people are picking up on the fact that there are other pokemon besides Salamence that can break down the biggest and baddest walls of stall.

I have seen a couple Heracross packing Sword's Dance, which would quite frankly scare the crap out of me if I was running a stall team. I am using a bulky offense team with plenty of speed on key members (Timid Zapdos especially), and I don't have much trouble taking down either side of the stall vs. anti-stall war.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Ok, yes it's competitive-- but we compete because it's fun. Yes, it's all to win, but that's because . . . well . . . winning is fun.

Just because I'm here to win and compete in a strategy game doesn't mean I'd be willing to spend 2-3 days playing 1 pokemon game.

I would be willing to spend that long playing a game of Go though, if I was really awesome at it and there was a grand title and tens of thousands of dollars on the line . . .

Playing 2-3 days (or even 1-2 hours) to have the satisfaction of winning a game of pokemon? Um . . . no. Though if you're Jumpman, you might very well play that long to get that 4000th win on BT I guess . . . I'm not sure how many have that much dedication to pokemon, it certainly is admirable.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Unfortunately, for the sake of the argument in this thread, it is assumed that stalling is just as much fun as every other type of pokemon.

If you want to make the case that pokemon is better off with less stall, then that should be made elsewhere..

Have a nice day.

 

[Forte.EXE]

I agree with this man. As another poster here said
"If it doesn't appear on the cover of the games, don't put it in ubers."

Blastoise, Charizard, Venusaur = Uber
Mew and Mewtwo = OU

That's one of the easiest examples to point out whey such a system would fail, and how suggesting it makes you look a dumbass. Also, I noticed you said that it was for Legendaries specifically.

Jirachi and Celebi for Ubers, guise! Hell, throw in Zapdos while you're at it! Get Rotom too! That sonnuva bitch has been in OU for too long (I may have missed it, but did anyone ever figure out if Rotom qualified as a Legendary?)! Phione is too close to Manaphy, with its Hydration ability. Better ban that too, to be on the safe side. We wouldn't want Hydration Phione dominating OU, would we?

 

[Aquamentus]

Salamence being talked about like the only Pokemon in the game that can beat stall really bothers me. So does this "so it has no counters, so what" attitude. I hope that doesn't snowball to other tiering arguments.

Anyway, let's see... it seems that Latias and Garchomp were banned for centralization, forcing worse Pokemon/movesets to be used and/or often beating their counters. Salamence can certainly beat its "counters" through prediction or superior speed, but does it centralize? The classic Pokemon that "beat Dragons but suck otherwise" like Weavile, Mamoswine, and especially Cresselia don't really see use anymore, while others like Starmie, Gliscor, Celebi, and the occasional Hippowdon often consider Ice attacks to be the most replacable when they want to use support moves on their sets.

If the metagame is losing to Salamence, people could really start going out of their way to do something about it, and if the metagame is Salamence-centralized, it really doesn't look like it to me. I don't see how a competitive community would just roll over and allow something to destroy it, so... somehow, people are dealing with Salamence. Yes, it's a bit unfair that it gets to be powerful, bulky, and fast at the same time, but we've dealt with it for a while now without using crappy Pokemon and moves we don't want to. That's why it's hard to figure out whether we need to ban this SOB or not, We've all thought it was "kinda broken" or "the best Pokemon" or whatever at some point, but it's not obviously broken like other things would be.

Like previously said, this really comes down to whether the people chosen for the council like Salamence being in the game or not, because there isn't a clear-cut right and wrong. I wish we had leaderboarder-vs-leaderboarder logs in this thread to read, though.

I'm not sure why I keep making sorta-big posts like this, considering I'm not very important and wouldn't mind it being banned or allowed.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

Salamence being talked about like the only Pokemon in the game that can beat stall really bothers me.

On every stall team I've built I have had to make sure that I have one near-100% answer to Salamence. This pokemon is saved at all costs in case the big dragon comes out. On my current team this is Cresselia, who benefits from not being affected by Toxic Spikes and Spikes. Basically, I answer every other threat in the game with 5 pokemon and am forced to keep Cresselia as my Salamence counter. Bulky Salamence and Dragonite as well, both less of a threat to other teams, pose a much larger threat to stall because Cresselia cannnot OHKO with Ice Beam because tons of EVs are required to take on Draco Meteors and Outrages.

Yes, it's a bit unfair that it gets to be powerful, bulky, and fast at the same time, but we've dealt with it for a while now without using crappy Pokemon and moves we don't want to. That's why it's hard to figure out whether we need to ban this SOB or not.

Like previously said, this really comes down to whether the people chosen for the council like Salamence being the game or not, because there isn't a clear-cut right and wrong.

Very, very true. I've changed my position on Salamence. Let the leaderboaders who truly understand the metagame decide the fate of OU's #1 dragon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Unfortunately, for the sake of the argument in this thread, it is assumed that stalling is just as much fun as every other type of pokemon.

If you want to make the case that pokemon is better off with less stall, then that should be made elsewhere..

Have a nice day.

The discussion was not so much as to whether stall is fun or not-- it was about whether a meta with stall and without salamence is fun.

 

[Hipmonlee]

The point was, that for the sake of this argument, it is assumed that following our definitions of uber results in the most fun metagame.

Have a nice day.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Not only was that not an assumptions stated at any point in the intro nor within discussion, but that is also a pretty absurd claim to make. The "definitions", if you want to call them that, are guide lines at best-- and they no direct relevancy as to defining "fun," which in and of itself is not definable. The ideal meta, the meta that would be most fun, is simply a matter of opinion and up to preferences.

While I am perfectly (happily) willing to accept the opinions (and thus judgement) of the council (and yes the characteristics will play a role here), there is nothing wrong about discussing individual opinions within this thread-- indeed, that could be considered the whole point of this thread.

Have a nice day.


edit:
BTW-- when will this council be getting together? If they decide on salamence's tiering 3 months from now, it'll make this thread/test REALLY irrelevant (except for people who remain die-hard gen 4 fans even after gen 5 takes center stage).

 

[goofball]

when we find out who even qualifies for the council...

 

[xabu1]

Not my quote, hobo, but the man's point was that only legendaries should be uber as they were specifically intended to be overly powerful in comparison to normal pokemon. You can make as many extreme examples as you like, but that doesn't change what the quote was meant to imply.

not all legendaries are overpowered... look at moltres, articuno and zapdos, really only one can be used in OU without sucking, legendary does not mean overpowered... those were not extreme examples, you said you agreed to someone who said that if it doesn't appear on a cover it shouldn't be uber, I could bring up more examples.

and does that mean you want wob in OU as well? and garchomp? good luck with that... legendary =/= uber. and not only legendaries can be uber

 

[Mufasa]

Just wanted to say something-
Mamoswine is seeing a lot of usage. I've seen a couple CB and LO one in my last few battles.
EDIT:
Sorry, evidentally I wasn't being clear. I was talking about suspect. And EQ kinda kills everything below.

 

[Shizzle]

CB Mamoswine sucks. Its like HEY, now you can send out your Heatran/Agiligross/Jirachi/almost anything and do whatever you want! Honestly out of all the revenge killers for Salamence, Choice Band Mamoswine has to be one of the worst, I mean Ice has terrible offensive coverage. Resisted by Steel, Water, Fire, Ice, 3 of which are fairly prominent in there usage. Not to mention is does just about nothing to any semi bulky neutral taking poke.

Scizor works simply because his raw power can get through this, especially late game when most pokes have taken some damage.

Choice Scarfers work better, simply because they can be versatile. Although revenge killers are fairly irrelevant, as I have said about 100 times, anything can just about revenge kill anything with a Choice Item.

 

[-Eddie-]

Very, very true. I've changed my position on Salamence. Let the leaderboaders who truly understand the metagame decide the fate of OU's #1 dragon.

I thought about this at first too; but I quickly realized that this might be a bad idea. A lot of the leaderboard, especially the people at the top, use stall a lot more than us common folks, so they could be a bit biased to removing Salamence as its the number 1 enemy to stall.

 

[ginganinja]

@ EddieD

I disagree with this view. The peple chosen for the council will likely be highly regarded people within the community. Maybe I have a romanticized view of the world but I would like to think that members of the council would not be so petty as to bann a pokemon so that they can continue to be NO 1 on a ladder.

I think I read somewhere that badged members (and mods) are role models for the community. I expect that members of the council will have the same attitude

have a Nice Day!

 

[LunaOrangeCrush]

The main thing that makes Salamence so good is his multiple deadly sets. I can't count how many times I've switched Swampert in on what I thought would be a Dragon Dance but ended up being a Draco Meteor in the face.

 

[SJCrew]

You guys are way too heavily biased toward the leaderboard, like the dude at #51 doesn't count or something. If it's a good match and both players played well, it doesn't matter what their rating is.

I don't want to sound hyper-critical or anything, but I know a lot of players who'd be on leaderboard right now if they really had that kind of time. As much as I like Pokemon, I like to do other stuff too, but that doesn't mean my opinion should count less than the dude that spends hours on end getting to the top.

 

[rh2012]

Salamence is NOT that hard to deal with. You dont have to have a 100% counter in your team for it. In my opinion, there really is no reason for salamsnce to go uber. In fact, i hardly agree with latias's "promotion" (although I do feel that she was a better candidate than salamence). If Salamence is going to be considered uber, IMO Jirachi, Celebi, and Scizor should all be Uber. Not that i believe ANY of those poke's ARE in fact too powerful for the OU metagame, but just that salamence is no better than any of those poke's i listed.

 

[Jackos]

Salamence is NOT that hard to deal with. You dont have to have a 100% counter in your team for it. In my opinion, there really is no reason for salamsnce to go uber. In fact, i hardly agree with latias's "promotion" (although I do feel that she was a better candidate than salamence). If Salamence is going to be considered uber, IMO Jirachi, Celebi, and Scizor should all be Uber. Not that i believe ANY of those poke's ARE in fact too powerful for the OU metagame, but just that salamence is no better than any of those poke's i listed.

The fact that you bring up Jirachi, Celebi and Scizor and actually say that they are just as hard to deal with than Salamence pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about, I mean all of those can be walled by something no matter what they do (only Jirachi has a small chance of winning against everything with flinch abuse but Iron Head's coverage is awful to say the least).

Salamence on the other hand it's a lot harder because it can heavily punish almost anything you do if you're not careful, I don't say it because I repeatedly lose to him (which I don't) but because its really easy to make a hole on the opponent's team once he is in (unless they got Cress), now I'm not going to post logs or fancy calcs as I don't think anyone can argue that Salamence is very dangerous.

I'm not sure whether Salamence is Uber on not yet, I don't find it so damaging to the metagame as some say and his abscense on Suspect makes most matches a boring fight against very defensive pokes + Vaporeon/Bulky Gyarados + Heatran + Breloom/Shaymin (I know personal opinion doesn't count on the case though).

Well I guess we'll just have to wait for the Council to decide, though it won't last much since I'm sure B/W will bring a way to deal with Salamence easier.

 

[Phantom_IV]

I don't want to sound hyper-critical or anything, but I know a lot of players who'd be on leaderboard right now if they really had that kind of time. As much as I like Pokemon, I like to do other stuff too, but that doesn't mean my opinion should count less than the dude that spends hours on end getting to the top.

Also very true. Many of our top players aren't on the leaderboards (OU, suspect, or otherwise), yet their opinions should matter in this decision. The results of this vote will not only decide which direction our metagame goes, but also whether we're a democratic community or an elitist group.

 

[TheValkyries]

Also very true. Many of our top players aren't on the leaderboards (OU, suspect, or otherwise), yet their opinions should matter in this decision. The results of this vote will not only decide which direction our metagame goes, but also whether we're a democratic community or an elitist group.

Are you implying that if the Council votes one way, it'll be Democratic and fair, but if it votes the opposite way, it'll be an Elitist Group?

 

[Chou Toshio]

You guys are way too heavily biased toward the leaderboard, like the dude at #51 doesn't count or something. If it's a good match and both players played well, it doesn't matter what their rating is.

I don't want to sound hyper-critical or anything, but I know a lot of players who'd be on leaderboard right now if they really had that kind of time. As much as I like Pokemon, I like to do other stuff too, but that doesn't mean my opinion should count less than the dude that spends hours on end getting to the top.

Actually, their opinion should matter more. It's like everything in life-- the more time you dedicate, the more you count. No one will say your opinion doesn't matter nor that you are at any sort of fault for not playing more . . .

. . . but that doesn't change the fact that dedication is rewarded by the community. Besides, those who play more should have more say in the game they are playing.

I say this well aware that it means my opinion means little to nothing compared to the council's in regards to Mence's tiering (since I too have a busy life outside of playing pokemon that doesn't allow for much shoddy time)-- but that's as it should be. I only speak for those who might share my opinions or be persuaded by them. It's good as a community, to play and make policy while displacing ego.

While we are all free to have our own opinions, I think because we recognize the decision made the council that this process has value. A dependable set of rules has more value than the ban status on any given borderline pokemon.

 

[Hipmonlee]

The problem Chou, is that the point of this thread is to discuss whether Salamence is uber.

The reasons a pokemon should be declared Uber have been defined here. With possibly some consideration of this.

This isnt up for debate here. It's what this thread is about.

Have a nice day.

 

[rh2012]

The fact that you bring up Jirachi, Celebi and Scizor and actually say that they are just as hard to deal with than Salamence pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about, I mean all of those can be walled by something no matter what they do (only Jirachi has a small chance of winning against everything with flinch abuse but Iron Head's coverage is awful to say the least).

Salamence on the other hand it's a lot harder because it can heavily punish almost anything you do if you're not careful, I don't say it because I repeatedly lose to him (which I don't) but because its really easy to make a hole on the opponent's team once he is in (unless they got Cress), now I'm not going to post logs or fancy calcs as I don't think anyone can argue that Salamence is very dangerous.

You have no reason to say that i don't know what i'm talking about, seeing as you have absolutely no idea who i am >_>

And i'm not saying that those pokemon cant be completely walled, i'm just saying that i dont see them as any less of a threat than salamence, same with Heatran, Gyara, and Tyranitar as well. Scizor can be easily taken care of with having to "wall" it. All it takes is a little prediction, and skill. You can easily lock a salamence into outrage 9:10 times if you know what you are doing. then switch in something that takes outrage, and viola! no more salamence. BP Scizor can take chunks of his health off, and ScarfStarmie makes salamence call it daddy (or mommy). Swampert can surive +1 Outrage, and hit with ice beam for the KO. Gyara hurts it with intimidate, and IF salamence attack, again is locked into outrage because it cant EQ or FB vs. a Gyara, and Bulky Gyara can take a Draco meteor. Theseare just SOME scenarios in which salamence can be taken down. So i dont know why everyone is complaining, it really isnt that bad.