I also understand the pain of yata lock
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The Growth of Competitive Pokemon
- Thread starter CCM30
- Start date
I also understand the pain of yata lock
In terms of team building, using Shoddy to test your theoritical team saves you from a soul crushing realization that your team you grinded up sucks. This is where online battling can help the competitive community build decent teams for local tournaments: Test the team. If it works, then start grinding for the real deal
I agree. And, again, people don't necessarily have to make these teams on their own, as there is a huge community of people that RNG on a regular basis. Their traffic would increase directly.
And, if anyone has a problem with that, then they should take advantage of those resources, too.
I mean, sure, the grinding can be bad, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be. RNGing is truly the longest part of the process, but it is also the first. Bypass that and the journey is relatively simple and easy, as EV training and leveling up is not only non-complex, but not that time consuming.
We have simulators for many reasons, but these people obviously would use them to test teams, like said above. Test the team and go from there. If people don't want to put the time in, then they don't deserve to win. Those that take the time will be rewarded. That's how competitive gaming should be.
The reason why there are not offline tournaments it's because nobody wants to do it. They have shoddy and PBR, so they are happy. This is the main difference between Smash and Pokémon.
It's simply more confortable, you don't need to organize, create rules, run an organization and so on.
In fact, even those games who have offline tournaments often run into logistical problems caused by bad organization. Rules that allow intimitadion of opponents, time constrains, a need to yell to be heard, not knowing when you play and when you don't, etc.
There must be will and there must be competence in order to create a good tournament.
You can bypass the grinding by allowing Pokesav or other hacking programs to make legal hacks. This way you remove the barrier of entry, it is akin to removing the cost of playing golf. A pokémon battle is about who is the best battler not who has more time to sink.
Similarly luck is greatly reduced if you play swiss instead of single elimination. Also this makes the tournament more enjoyable and worth it than paying to lose the first round and be kicked out. Unfortunatedly often the organizers of such tourneys don't really care or simply don't know better so they end up running single elimination tourneys.
In the end, all you need to create an offline tournament is to be willing to make good rules and understand logistics. I have seen lot of tournaments fail or create a bad atmosphere instead of fun because everyone flocked next to the consoles trying to hear what the organization said.
It's simply more confortable, you don't need to organize, create rules, run an organization and so on.
In fact, even those games who have offline tournaments often run into logistical problems caused by bad organization. Rules that allow intimitadion of opponents, time constrains, a need to yell to be heard, not knowing when you play and when you don't, etc.
There must be will and there must be competence in order to create a good tournament.
You can bypass the grinding by allowing Pokesav or other hacking programs to make legal hacks. This way you remove the barrier of entry, it is akin to removing the cost of playing golf. A pokémon battle is about who is the best battler not who has more time to sink.
Similarly luck is greatly reduced if you play swiss instead of single elimination. Also this makes the tournament more enjoyable and worth it than paying to lose the first round and be kicked out. Unfortunatedly often the organizers of such tourneys don't really care or simply don't know better so they end up running single elimination tourneys.
In the end, all you need to create an offline tournament is to be willing to make good rules and understand logistics. I have seen lot of tournaments fail or create a bad atmosphere instead of fun because everyone flocked next to the consoles trying to hear what the organization said.
Well, if that were the case, I'd figure all games with online capabilities would run only online tournaments, but obviously that isn't the case.
I fully agree with that last statement.
However, I think you fail to see the success of many of today's LAN tournaments. Look at Major League Gaming, they ran a full singles, double-elimination Smash tournament of over 250 players extremely smoothly. They started Friday night and finished Saturday morning. That's amazing. It's clearly possible.
Even go to any other tournament for a game. Players that pay to enter will want to play to win. It'd be stupid for them to pay money and screw around. Most people don't. And it doesn't any effort to silence the masses or, even easier, make sure everyone knows the schedule.
I'm not sure what you mean by "rules that allow intimidation," since there...uh...aren't any. In a gaming atmosphere, you can't tell someone not to be intimidating.
Well, of course. That's up to the tournament organizer, though. If the TO decides that legal hacks are okay, then legal hacks can be used. Nothing is stopping anyone else from not using legal hacks, and some people may just find solace in training their own team anyways.
Well, I don't think anyone runs single-elimination tournaments anymore, except VGC. Tournaments are literally always double-elimination, and many run pools before they get to brackets. It's as simple as that.
Well, then I don't see what is stopping us.
I, for one, would love to get tournaments set up. If anyone is willing to work towards that goal, I'd be perfectly behind it.
Lag doesn't matter in a turn-based game. There's a reason no serious fighting game community puts much stock into online tournaments.
I don't mean to be a downer, though. Being able to organize something would be pretty boss.
No, no, I get you, but realistically, many games with both LAN and online capabilities thrive in the online competitively community. Call of Duty 4 would be such a game.
But yeah, probably not fighting games, though Smash Bros does have a decent WiFi community.
It would be, which is why I'd like to get something moving. If we had a good amount of people who would like to work as TOs and get tournaments going, whether they be VGC-styled or just standard OU 6 on 6, it'd still be awesome and we could be starting something pretty big.
EDIT:
For those of you that haven't checked it out, Havak has started up something that is essentially what I'd like to do, but in the US:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69503
He's pretty much doing a VGC 09-styled tournament. We could definitely do things like that if he can, no?
It's quite a bit more complex than that. Most leagues started back when using a mouse to aim in a shooter was rare, so tradition matters. A league that hosts LANs is more prestigious as one who doesn't and the LAN itself is seen as a prize or something to fight for.
Similarly you can't sell products if the sponsors can't even make a photo with the whole team in it. It just lacks image. Shoddy is good but going to a real event is more fun and will help Nintendo win more money.
Pokémon has no tradition, a barrier of entry and lacks infrastructure so things need to be made from scratch.
Eh, not to many extents. MLG started in, oh, 2004 I believe and never started with the PC, but rather, with the Xbox and Halo. There really aren't leagues anymore. MLG in it of itself isn't really a league. The only true leagues nowadays are like in Korea.
Well, exactly, that's my point. It is more fun. We need some more fun. Tournaments do that.
Shouldn't be too hard. If we have the determination, it's not as hard as it sounds.
It's up to the TO, honestly. Obviously, unsportsman-like conduct to an extent should be banned. Someone talking smack once in a while, again, it's up to the TO. Stalling is obviously always dealt with. Smash does it very well.
I agree.
Agreed and true.
I'm behind such an idea.
The average player isn't going to spend 10 hours beating the game. Spending another 10 hours learning how to RNG. Spending another 10 hours figuring out what pokemon to use and the best strategies needed to win. Another 10 hours breeding for moves and IV's.
Basically, only the hardcore of hardcore players who are dedicated to playing Pokemon will only spend that large amount of time making a team. And re-make the team if it's not working out. It's too much of a hassle to create good quality pokemon to battle with. Unlike Smash where you just pick your character and fight.
Basically, only the hardcore of hardcore players who are dedicated to playing Pokemon will only spend that large amount of time making a team. And re-make the team if it's not working out. It's too much of a hassle to create good quality pokemon to battle with. Unlike Smash where you just pick your character and fight.
So, we shouldn't run tournaments because someone hasn't beaten the game? I went to VGC with 4 badges in my HeartGold version...
Exactly. And there are tons of these dedicated players. We should cater to the competitive scene. That's the whole point. If someone doesn't want to take the time to get a team ready, they don't play. Those who will take the time can do so if they please.
And the time isn't as large as you make it out to be. Many players can obtain RNG'd Pokemon from others. EV training takes very little time to do. Or they can PokeSav or use other legal hacks if the TO allows it.
Yes, because all of the good players don't, you know, practice, theorize, learn match-ups, read and understand guides and approach strategies, etc.
The competitive Pokemon community is much smaller than the one for Smash, and their is a good reason why. Making tournament level pokemon is too time consuming for the average player. A person who wants to play competitively has to go online and learn a bunch of shit to even try to get into competitive battling. Where as in Smash, you just pick up a controller and start playing and getting better.
That is the main reason why Pokemon will never be a popular tournament level game. You need to do a bunch of research and grinding before you can even play the damn game competitively.
That is the main reason why Pokemon will never be a popular tournament level game. You need to do a bunch of research and grinding before you can even play the damn game competitively.
I think the main reason has to do with history. How many of you got into competitive Pokemon through NetBattle or Shoddy Battle? How many through actual Link Cable or WiFi battling? How many of you play Pokemon with your friends? How many play Pokemon with faceless people you met online?
Competitive Pokemon has its roots in online simulators, not real-life get-togethers.
Competitive Pokemon has its roots in online simulators, not real-life get-togethers.
I still say that Brawl is similar. No one just picks up the controller and plays. They go online and learn about all the different techniques and combos a character can learn, how matchups should be played out and all the different stage/character combo situations there are.
EDIT:
Just because it isn't normal now doesn't mean it can't be. Just because it has its roots in one thing doesn't mean it can't grow to something else.
Didn't read the rest of the thread, we're a smaller community and spread all across the globe. So we just don't have the requisite density to host local tournaments. And everyone has mentioned it, but online is just so much easier. VCG offers an alternative if players are really itching to compete IRL.
You need to look at the concentration of people in certain areas. In the Northeastern Region of the United States there are A LOT of people who can, the main thing is locating the hotspots with the most concentrations and then do something involving that.
That may have been true of previous generations, but I'd be surprised if it is now. I started with Gen IV on the DS. I don't really care for simulators, even though the competition is better there.
I completely agree.
My brother and I have formed our own small community (with only 20 or so people that
play in person together), and we host small tournaments, but it would be really great to start having more in person tournaments.
My brother and I have formed our own small community (with only 20 or so people that
play in person together), and we host small tournaments, but it would be really great to start having more in person tournaments.
Hi people.
I am really glad that my country's regional distributor for Nintendo actually holds a VGC style battle in Singapore. We go by point based rather than tourney tree based. They hired Ash & Misty cosplayers to spice the event up further.
As we have a small population (approx 4 mil), this VGC is meant for all ages. But soon u will see 2 group of players: Casual players (mostly kids) and Competitive players (some of them lurk here!).
Yes, I agree, any kind of competition at any location is good, I get to meet up more pokemon fanatics and I truely enjoy it. :)
Singapore have a TGC winner competition at Hawaii this year. I really look forward to see if Singapore can be added to the world VGC list.
Mind if I post pictures?
I am really glad that my country's regional distributor for Nintendo actually holds a VGC style battle in Singapore. We go by point based rather than tourney tree based. They hired Ash & Misty cosplayers to spice the event up further.
As we have a small population (approx 4 mil), this VGC is meant for all ages. But soon u will see 2 group of players: Casual players (mostly kids) and Competitive players (some of them lurk here!).
Yes, I agree, any kind of competition at any location is good, I get to meet up more pokemon fanatics and I truely enjoy it. :)
Singapore have a TGC winner competition at Hawaii this year. I really look forward to see if Singapore can be added to the world VGC list.
Mind if I post pictures?
I'm a miniature wargamer. If you know what that means, then you know how highly I encourage local clubs and gatherings. There's an awesome sense of community when you gather with people who share your niche interest. At the same time, Pokemon has some unique obstacles adapting to this format, which have been listed here.
I heavily disagree with the comparison to Smash. Without a simulator, or usable online options, irl is SSB's only option. Compiling a team of six Pokemon and adjusting it is not comparable to a Smash player going over framerates and matchups. Pokemon players spend time on mechanics and metagames, too; this is in addition to the prep time required in producing a team in game. Theory study exists with both games, but Pokemon is unique in its ~thirty hours of practical preparation requirements. Not to mention, Smash and Pokemon are completely different games.
Edit: Pokesav remedies this, and a competitive community will probably allow that. Of course, that jacks up the financial requirements with extra apparatus.
I'm also going to agree with asdfrozen. "Competitive Pokemon has its roots in online simulators, not real-life get-togethers." Brawl would remain a primarily irl game, even if it got better Wi-Fi. In the same way, Pokemon will remain primarily online, with its /me Cresselias and 156 EVs in its Defense.
But that doesn't mean that people can't try it out. Tournaments could work in places like New York or California. The best of luck to those able to join.
I heavily disagree with the comparison to Smash. Without a simulator, or usable online options, irl is SSB's only option. Compiling a team of six Pokemon and adjusting it is not comparable to a Smash player going over framerates and matchups. Pokemon players spend time on mechanics and metagames, too; this is in addition to the prep time required in producing a team in game. Theory study exists with both games, but Pokemon is unique in its ~thirty hours of practical preparation requirements. Not to mention, Smash and Pokemon are completely different games.
Edit: Pokesav remedies this, and a competitive community will probably allow that. Of course, that jacks up the financial requirements with extra apparatus.
I'm also going to agree with asdfrozen. "Competitive Pokemon has its roots in online simulators, not real-life get-togethers." Brawl would remain a primarily irl game, even if it got better Wi-Fi. In the same way, Pokemon will remain primarily online, with its /me Cresselias and 156 EVs in its Defense.
But that doesn't mean that people can't try it out. Tournaments could work in places like New York or California. The best of luck to those able to join.