Implemented The Identity of National Dex (again)

Status
Not open for further replies.

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
Basically a reedition of this thread
(Edit: Scroll down to directly get into the proposals)

With the controversy around Dynamax not being implemented in Gen9NDAG (though this is also due to programming constraints), I believe we should take the new generation as an opportunity to try to define a sturdier policy for NatDex formats in general. In this post, i will go over two proposals to define a general framework around how each new generation should be handled by National Dex metagames. Keep in mind the purpose of this thread is NOT about tiering, but rather about how National Dex metagames are generally defined in the first place, before any kind of tiering action takes place in these metagames. In an attempt to make these two proposals as rigorous as possible, I will first introduce a couple of definitions. Note that the defined terms here might have been used with different meanings in different contexts - thus justifying the necessity of redefining them in the scope of this thread.
Aside from the proposals, this thread also is the opportunity for me to put the spotlight on some questions about what NatDex should allow/should not allow.

An important thing to keep in mind : ultimately, the goal of this thread is not to push for these proposals specifically, but try to construct a rigorous definition for National Dex, being consistent, coherent, and hopefully sustainable (we also do not want National Dex to become an uncodable mess in the future generations - by the way devs inputs about this would be appreciated).


A metagame is defined by two aspects:

Legalities
The legalities of a metagame are how it is defined in the teambuilder. In other terms, it is the set of allowed things in the given metagame. If I cannot bring Blissey or items in RBY, it is because of this gen's specific legalities. Stabmons is, for example, a metagame altering the legalities of the metagame. Something that can be legal or illegal from a legality point of view will be called an element.
Tiering could be seen as a way to artifically alter legalities of a tier ; however, this is not a topic relevant to this thread, so it doesn't really matter.

In-Battle Mechanics
The in-battle mechanics of a metagame are, in a nutshell, the behavior of every legal element of the metagame. Waterfall being a special move in RBY and being a physical move with a flinch chance in SM, Sand Stream setting permanent sand before gen6, or team preview being available after gen5, is a matter of in-battle mechanics. Following this definition, Dynamax is exclusively an in-battle mechanic that is not triggered by an element in the teambuilder, even though it can be modified by certain elements (like G-Max formes).

->Two metagames having the same legalities and in-battle mechanics are exactly the same, as you are allowed to bring the same things in both of them, and these things are going to behave the exact same way. In conclusion, these two concepts are sufficient to completely define a metagame, and they will be used as a base for my proposals.

Generational gimmicks
Generational gimmicks are important mechanics added in each generations, in the mainline games. This is a definition very relevant to the identity of National Dex.
Gen6: Mega-Stones and Mega-Evolution, Blue Orb, Red Orb and Primal forms
Gen7: Z-Moves
Gen8: Dynamax
Gen9: Terastal phenomenon

In practice, NatDex always went under the assumption that a Pokemon should not be able to run two generationnal gimmicks on the same set.
(Edit: i am aware that Primals can currently terastallize in gen9ndag while they cannot dynamax in gen8ndag ; this is one of the issues this thread aims to adress)

Key items are excluded from these definitions on purpose, as even if they can have an impact on the in-battle mechanics, they were never supposed to be transferrable in the first place, are not elements of the builder, cannot be disabled/enabled on purpose, and probably would not do anything if they were hacked in a game were they are not supposed to exist. However, proposal B works pretty much like you enabled every key item in NatDex - it just does not need the concept of key item to be properly defined.


Proposals
The two proposals mostly differ by the way they are handling generational gimmicks, in particular the ones that are an entire in-battle mechanic that do not need a particular element in the team to exist in-game (Dynamax, Terastal phenomenon).

Legalities:
Proposals A and B

In terms of legalities, both proposals preserve the status quo, which can be defined as the following:
National Dex assumes that every Pokemon and item available in a gen7+ mainline game is transferrable to the current gen's mainline games. If an unreleased past-gen Pokemon has coded movepool additions (such as SV Regieleki + Tera Blast), these additions will be added to its movepool.
(Questions: Should the unreleased movepools rule be kept? Is it that bad if the movepools additions are removed as the Pokemon is added to the game? What if the Pokemon is never released, will the movepool additions be removed once the generation ends? Or implement a "if it never existed, it shouldnt exist in NatDex" rule?
Should we keep the availability rule to gen7+? gen3+ would free gems, gen1+ would make gen2 movepools and some items such as berserk gene available.)

In-Battle Mechanics:
Proposal A and B:

Part of the status quo is preserved: if an element in not clickable (Pursuit, Hidden Power,...), not usable (Mega-Stones), illegal or straight up not present in the code, the element will either:
-If it is not present in the code OR coded to not work : the element will work like it did during the last generation it was available. Note that this include cases where the element needs a now unreachable condition (going through a certain event, getting a certain key item, etc...) in order to work.
-Otherwise, use the coded mechanics (Like how Battle Bond currently behaves in gen9nationaldex)

Proposal A:
National Dex only should try to emulate what the current gen would be if every pokemon, move, ability and item is transferrable, adding nothing else to the mix. There is no particular status given to generational gimmicks, meaning that Dynamax is nuked from gen9+, Terastallize from gen10+, and even Mega-Rayquaza in gen8+ (or gen9+ if we want to keep MRay in gen9nationaldexag for historical reasons) as dAscent Rayquaza is not able to Mega-Evolve in Sword&Shield.
EDIT: To make it clear, since it seems like some people missunderstood that part: as Z-Moves and Megas are carried by items, they are not removed by this proposal.

Proposal B:
National Dex should make an exception for generational gimmicks that are not carried by an element of the builder. This would mean that Dynamax and the Terastal phenomenon would be legal (except in tiers where they are banned).
 
Last edited:

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I have not played National Dex so I'm not going to make any definitive statements on what should or should not happen, but I was always under the impression that it was created to preserve every Pokémon (not strictly every form thereof, just the dex number). The casual fandom's big stink was the removal of the Pokémon themselves, not the old gimmicks, though one can argue that people want to preserve Megas (and Primals since they're functionally Megas) due to the mechanic's overall popularity. Implementing the gimmicks seems tertiary to that goal of preserving the entire Dex and it sounds like it's creating coding and sustainability issues.

Under my initial assumption I feel like Proposal A is thus the more elegant solution here. Sometimes simple is better, anyway. I admittedly do not think it's a perfect solution (many people will almost assuredly want to keep every gimmick), but this is kind of a messy problem and we'll have to compromise on something regardless of the route we take.

Like I said I haven't played National Dex so I don't know how valid my opinion is, but I feel like it might worth considering what some rando thinks when they hear that a "National Dex" meta exists and how it would appeal to them. This is ultimately more of an identity issue than a meta issue anyway.
 
Last edited:

sugar ovens

blood inside
is a Top Tiering Contributor
I think the cleanest, most sustainable approach (there might be generational gimmicks using items in the future) would be this:

- Every Pokémon is avaitable in NatDex as it was in the last generation in which it existed.
- Elements that are not clickable in the current gen are not avaitable.


Essentially just this - the unavaitable Pokémon are transferred into the current gen with movepools that they could have in the last generation that they were included in. (+ moves that were distributed to all mons like Tera Blast can be an exception nd added to their movepools). The avaitable pokémon are not touched, cuz the last generation they existed in is the current one. Preserving all items, all generational gimmicks or all cut moves should not be a part of this. Less arbitrary than transferring-but-only-from-gen7+, too.
 
Last edited:

Kalalokki

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris an Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sprite Leader
I've never been involved in National Dex in any way so I won't speak on behalf of those who have been playing this format for the past generation and what they've liked/not liked, but I was around when the whole concept of National Dex was put in to practice.

For a brief history lesson, back in E3 times of 2019 they basically announced that if a Pokémon wasn't available in the Galar dex it wouldn't be able to be transferred to Sword & Shield from the newly announced HOME service, essentially limiting the game to its regional dex that was estimated to be around 400 something at the time. This was a stark contrast from any earlier game where the full back catalog of Pokémon were available as soon it became possible to obtain them in various remakes, 3rd versions, or from transferring from an earlier generation. Naturally people were upset on the internet and after people had asked on Twitter, Zarel said that PS would have a format where all past Pokémon would be available to play with in the same format. Later on when people asked further, he also said that cut past gen mechanics like Megas and Z-moves could also be included in this format, but that exact details would be decided later on. Fast forward to about October/November and things were close to launch and a whole new format that could be very popular was basically going to exist and neither devs, tier leaders, or tournament directors seemed all that interested in taking care of this metagame that was dropped in our laps. To me the biggest problem was always how all of these mechanics (Dynamax, Megas, Primals, Z-moves, etc) would interact with each other because they never were supposed to in Gen 8 and would lead to people making definitive decisions on stuff that was in no way recreatable on cart. OU didn't want to be in charge of this format, neither would OM as it was essentially a Pet Mod in terms of how mechanics were decided, no one had stepped up to be a leader of it, and in the end it was just made live on PS quite unceremoniously and stuff had to be scrambled together out of necessity.

Now as you all know National Dex worked out quite fine in the end, having its own subforum, expanding in to various lower tiers, and getting quite popular on both the ladder, their own tournaments, and suspect tests. And speaking of suspect tests, not even Dynamax was spared in this format which leads to the question: what is the identity of National Dex? If it's to meld all Pokémon, all moves, and all mechanics then only National Dex AG would be considered National Dex (a metagame that was later split off from the AG that was ran in the OM forum). If National Dex is just supposed to be all Pokémon available in a generation when they aren't on cart, then why are cut mechanics and moves still available? While Megas are essentially a different form of a Pokémon, they're also a mechanic that was cut. What happens if Terastal potentially gets banned from National Dex, now you'll have two generations worth of major mechanics gone yet old stuff like Megas and Z-moves are still available just because they weren't broken, essentially creating a Gen 7 "Tradeback" metagame once more. What do you do next generation when Terastal gets scrapped, like Dynamax was this gen, and the new gimmick mechanic is introduced?

To me the only solution is to make National Dex as the current generation of mechanics, moves, etc, but with all Pokémon available that aren't reliant on cut mechanics. No Megas, no Primals, no Gigantamaxes, no Z-moves, no cut moves or items, and simply the movesets that a Pokémon had the last generation it was available (which might be less ideal if this gen's HOME decides to make past available moves untransferable similar to BDSP). From a mechanics standpoint you get way less that isn't verifiable on cart and you don't have to make nearly as many executive decisions. Banning a generation's major gimmick wouldn't be as major of a detriment to the format's identity, almost everything got rid of Dynamax last generation but those all had their distinct generational identity anyway. It's also futureproof, when Gen 10 rolls around National Dex would just be however that generation works + all the Pokémon that GF decided to not be available this time around.

The last thread was basically concluded with not changing the status quo in any major way because of how relatively late in the metagame's development it came about and this thread would probably have been even more effective if it happened a few weeks ago. But I hope we can still come to a different decision that doesn't just push this problem to a later time.
 

adem

her
is a Tutoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
HI former natadex player here to give my thoughts, and why I don't think we should really stop / change what we've been doing from last gen.

As someone who has played the tier for a long while, and know a large majority of the community, I think that a very very very small minority of current players would actually enjoy some of the legality implementations mentioned above, and kind of feels like you are taking away the identity of the tier ironically. Personally I do think that there should be some more strict set guidelines on legalities and mechanics that need to be set in order to prevent issues such as GBro Mega Evolving into Mega Slowbro last generation, which was based of off hacked in forms that doesn't necessarily equate to the actual scenario happening and doesn't make a lot of sense in practice. However, other than that, I really dont think a lot of the issues brought up in the thread are actual concerns of people that play the tier, or at least a vast majority of that, and am a firm believer of not fixing whats not broken.

Some points mentioned in some of the above posts (paraphrased)
"Generation mechanics being banned leading to whats basically a Gen 7 tradeback metagame"

For one, I dont think this is has been an issue mentioned at all regarding NatDex by its players, and I'm sure they are perfectly fine with having a Gen 7 Tradeback Metagame, as that's what they enjoy. These mechanics are also still not ignored by the tier, and are all available in National Dex AG free to use, so I dont see whats the issue? National Dex (OU) isn't just a sandbox tier with everything allowed, and I dont see how us banning the generational mechanics is any different from us banning whatever broken new Pokemon (also feel like this wouldn't even be brought up if natdex ou was called natdex ou but that's another story). National Dex's (as a whole) identity is still kept the same, OU isn't the only NatDex based tier, and there is always a tier where every mechanic and move and item is available (NatDex AG), we still do tiering and whats broken will be banned. While yeah, in some cases (SS and potentially SV) will be essentially a Gen 7 OU Tradeback metagame, National Dex's (as a whole) identity will still be the same as everything can still be used in AG, and maybe if generation whatever's mechanic isnt banned then in OU as well.


"Solely preserving the dex should be the primary goal and stuff like gimmicks like Megas and Primals are second fiddle to that"

As TRQ put it on discord:
TheRainQueenToday at 22:13
I think ppl like mega evolving being in not because mega evolving is cool, but because the megas feel like distinct pokemon

And I wholeheartedly agree with this, especially with how much they impact and shape the metagame, especially compared to their base forms for which nearly all of them would not see the light of day. I would say the issue brought up is just a minor issue, yeah National *Dex* does technically mean its specifically the Pokemon, and can understand why some people newer to the tier might think that as well, it isnt that hard to accept that it does cover everything else; moves, items, formed (which are effectively new pokemon as well atp), etc.

I dont think NatDex's identity really needs much of a change, maybe just some tweaks legality wise, but I want to mention that drastic options like the ones mentioned previously would not be good for the enjoyability of the players of the tier, and I dont think would have much positives barring solving minor issues like the MBro issue mentioned earlier. Nuking stuff like cut moves, items, gimmicks as actually existing in NatDex (they can be banned from its subsequent tiers, dont think that should be an issue) would be more of a take away from its current identity that's perceived by pretty much everyone, and would feel like a shell of a tier. Maybe this could have been done at the start of the creation of NatDex, and this would turn out very differently, but at this point it feels like a waste. While I have heard that there have been some issues IRT coding and the implementing of new mechanics, and potential mechanics bloat, at this point (or maybe even for a few generations or so), I dont think its that much of an issue, and the status quo should continue, people can complain if stuff take time but if it happens in the end I dont see the issue.

tldr dont fix whats not broken, if stuff take long to code its fine let people whine, natdex as it is has already established itself as the tier that has everything available, ndou isn't the only nd tier if smtg is banned from ndou it doesn't mean it doesn't exist entirely and is an issue no one has, while its name technically refers to just the mons i think that's not really important and would flip the tier over its head, and result in a net negative
 

Ryuji

LIFE'S FLASHING BEFORE YOUR EYES?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
As a national dex council member, and as someone who has actively played the tier, I think the proposal A is the best solution, as I agree having 10 gimmicks interacting with each other isn't what we want. But I think losing the former gimmicks (Mega Evolution and Z-Moves) is just a loss of identity. What made this format so popular is those gimmicks, and removing them, as the former moves, will just make National Dex another form of SV OU with just more Pokemons, and I don't see the point doing so. It will be at the end similar formats, and, if i take the point of vue of a player that wants to try one of those tier, i won't see why should i play an unofficial metagame that is like the other one but doesn't have its own identity nor something more interesting about it bar the fact you have more Pokemons. Z-Moves, Mega Evolutions and full moveset are a big part of why i like these tier, and why i choosed to be involved in them. And I think it's the case of a large majority amongst the players. I don't think cutting those is giving us an identity, nor fixing our tier, it's quite the opposite to me.
As a whole, those formats have their own identity, although it can be vague for people that doesn't play nor are involved in the tier, i'll admit. I don't think the main purpose of the format was to just play the new gen with all Pokemons, because to me it doesn't make really sense to see former gimmicks being implemented. I don't think the tier is broke in any way, so i don't see why we should try to fix what doesn't really need to.
I'll admit that considering we are a status quo, without strict guideline about how stuff interact with each others is a bad thing (like glowbro mega evolving). So what i think is the best call is considering National Dex as an emulation of what would look like the new generation with all pokemons, items AND moves being obtainable, and not just a Pokemon Home like, while being more strict on certain interaction that weren't intended by the developpers. I also think the National Dex format (OU, and more generaly the tier as a whole) shouldn't have two names but one. It should be called National Dex OU, as it's litteraly what it is. It's just confusing to see threads named with and without the OU, while they are in general about the same tier. National Dex should be considered as a "generation" on its own, if that make sense, because now you have lower and upper tiers in it. It's not one format, it's a bunch of format.
tldr: we have an identity, that should be sharpened instead of being taken away, because what was previously offered will bring more negative than positive.
 
Last edited:

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
I played a bit in natdex, and know a LOT of people that do, and without fail the reason is always how it's a conglomerate of mechanics from all the games than just the Pokémon selection; while proposal A may present less headaches going forward and it's less intensive to code (so less of a nightmare for our unpaid coding slaves who we love for their work and they should get appreciated more), National Dex has it in its blood, being a crazy all-encompassing "official pet mod" (what a lot of people like to call it, at least), with what we have and what we lost. People play this because the interactions are making this tier what it is, and going backwards and turning the tier just a slightly wonkier <current gen> isn't what attracted so many people to it.

As long as the base stipulations are met (we can have non-current gen global gimmicks, but everything else must be either current gen or the latest iteration of the move/ability/learnset/whatever we got) we should definitely stick with having all of them usable, with the usual condition of not being able to use two of them on the same Pokémon
 
Last edited:

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
As someone decently involved in NatDex and Pet Mods, I think I can say some stuff...

First of all, while I can understand how potentially having to deal with the mess that'd be several gen-specific gimmicks code-wise, I think we should have a coder in here to discuss the issue to begin with, as naturally the amount of effort required to have two mechanics coexisting is different from doing that plus allowing them to overlap (Dynamax Tera Flying Mega Rayquaza using Z-Max Airstream, anyone?), and it'd be reasonable to claim we can't really come up with conclusions on that area if we aren't even involved on the coding (it's like complaining about something but not making the ones that'd deal with it in the first place speak their part).
In the end we'll still have to deal with a rising number of Pokémon long-term, and while on the other hand we can always reuse previously-done code to ease work, some coder involved on this work should speak.

As for NatDex being ultimately a Pet Mod, while I don't disagree, I don't think it's a bad thing either, there's precedent to what are essencially Pet Mods getting their own subforum and the likes with the whole CAP community, which is quite older than NatDex in fact, CAP even has as its premise adding downright fan-made Pokémon to play around ideally competitive concepts decided by the community, which isn't different from several "regular" Pet Mods, and so something involving too many arbitrary changes to be an OM (let alone a vanilla/unmodified metagame) isn't a bad thing in itself, and it's not like part of our goal is having only vanilla metagames, otherwise most (if not all) metas that distance themselves from that wouldn't exist.

Anyways, I'll remind that NatDex has consistently displayed a standard on gen-specific gimmicks not being stackable on top of each other, as much as we have precedent in Gen VII and a individual Rayquaza being unable to use a Z-Move and Mega Evolve in the same battle, which has leaded in Gen VIII to Dynamax not being usable if the user meets criteria to Mega Evolve (A compatible Mega Stone or Dragon Ascent on Rayquaza) or to use a Z-Move (carrying a Z-Crystal), it'd be natural to follow a similar standard in the following generations, especially given the precedent.

And that's where a concern comes, neither the Terastal phenomenon or Dynamax rely on the user being of a specific species or carrying a specific item, leading into a Pokémon that can Dynamax by extension being able to Terastallize as well (bar arguably Zacian, Zamazenta and Eternatus as they may not be compatible with Dynamax even in their debut generation out of lore reasons, but they can Terastallize even if unusable currently outside of Hackmons) given the precedent mentioned above.

I'd advocate to look at official media outside the main games in odd situations to sort semantical situations out, many are aware that Galarian Slowbro is allowed to Mega Evolve by carrying the Slowbronite in NatDex formats, turning it into Kantonian Mega Slowbro, all of this is based apparently on Gen VII coding semantics in which Mega Charizard Y (for example) can Mega Evolve into Mega Charizard X if hacked to be in such form (the Y one) without an item, as the game only looks for the dex number, rather than the form of the user to determine if that'd be valid, but not only is this clearly an unintended semantic (Aloraichium Z, a Z-Crystal tied to a species that has different forms that don't require to hold an item to be in them without hacking in the same game, is only usable by a specific one (Alolan Raichu), rather than Kantonian Raichu as well), there's Pokémon GO (which even has direct ties to mainline games, Meltan, anyone?) showing that only the Kantonian Slowbro forme is intended to Mega Evolve, to claim that Glowbro being unable to Mega Evolve in a game where the other forme can is a mistake would be rather assumptive to say the least.

All of that being said, I personally advocate more for Proposal B as it brings more appealing metagames, it has already been made clear here by those that actually play NatDex formats that not only having all species, but their related forms and gimmicks as well is what brings NatDex its appeal, removing that doesn't turn it significantly different from regular metagames and is detrimental to its identity too.
 

Dorron

BLU LOBSTAH
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
Legalities:
Proposals A and B

In terms of legalities, both proposals preserve the status quo, which can be defined as the following:
National Dex assumes that every Pokemon and item available in a gen7+ mainline game is transferrable to the current gen's mainline games. If an unreleased past-gen Pokemon has movepool additions (such as SV Regieleki + Tera Blast), these additions will be added to its movepool.
(Questions: Should the unreleased movepools rule be kept? Is it that bad if the movepools additions are removed as the Pokemon is added to the game? What if the Pokemon is never released, will the movepool additions be removed once the generation ends? Or implement a "if it never existed, it shouldnt exist in NatDex" rule?
Should we keep the availability rule to gen7+? gen3+ would free gems, gen1+ would make gen2 movepools and some items such as berserk gene available.)
Everything the Pokemon learns until Gen 7 + new moves the Pokemon learns in Gen 8 (if it exists in Gen 8) + new moves the Pokemon learns in Gen 9 (if it exists in Gen 9), and it shouldn't lose any move from earlier gens (like Water-types losing Scald due to it being a TM). If the Pokemon isn't in a game, it should never learn moves it is supposed to learn in that Gen; we are just assuming things by assumptions and not evidence which should be something to avoid. Remember in Gen 8 when it was leaked that Tapu Koko would learn Play Rough, it was implemented in Random Battles and it eventually didn't learn it? I don't think that's ideal.

The end of the national Pokedex happened from Gen 7 to Gen 8, so it makes sense to use that as benchmark, even if there are items like Gems that are not usable.


In-Battle Mechanics:
Proposal A and B:

Part of the status quo is preserved: if an element in not clickable (Pursuit, Hidden Power,...), not usable (Mega-Stones), illegal or straight up not present in the code, the element will either:
-If it is not present in the code OR coded to not work : the element will work like it did during the last generation it was available.
-Otherwise, use the coded mechanics (Like how Battle Bond currently behaves in gen9nationaldex)

Proposal A:
National Dex only should try to emulate what the current gen would be if every pokemon and item is transferrable, adding nothing else to the mix. There is no particular status given to generational gimmicks, meaning that Dynamax is nuked from gen9+, Terastallize from gen10+, and even Mega-Rayquaza in gen8+ (or gen9+ if we want to keep MRay in gen9nationaldexag for historical reasons) as dAscent Rayquaza is not able to Mega-Evolve in Sword&Shield.

Proposal B:
National Dex should make an exception for generational gimmicks that are not carried by an element of the builder. This would mean that Dynamax and the Terastal phenomenon would be legal (except in tiers where they are banned).
All these should be reviewed on a case by case basis in my opinion. We should try to have the most of these mechanics all together to a point that it doesn't feel awkward to have many of them. If we were ok this Gen with Tera, Megas and Z-Moves, next gen we could see if the new mechanic could fit well with these three. If not, we would remove Tera and add the new one (ignoring if it will be banned to NDAG). For example, this gen I don't think we should keep both Terastal and Dynamax, thus removing Dynamax. National Dex should always have Megas and Z-Crystals to keep its identity and the main reason the tier was made; let's be honest, National Dex without Megas and Z-Moves wouldn't feel like National Dex at all. We could talk about Zs, but Megas are a must.

Any other mechanics (how moves, items and abilities work) should behave they way they do in the last Generation they are coded and usable, so Battle Bond and Protean should work the way they do in Gen 7, Zamazenta shouldn't learn Body Press... Remember the Play Rough Tapu Koko? This is exactly the same but nobody talks about it for any reason.
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
I lack the time to make a fully fleshed out post unfortunately, but i wanted to quickly go over some points that were mentionned in this thread. Sorry if it's a bit messy.

On nuking past gens items and moves (and thus Megas and Z-Moves)
While sustainibility and coherence are important factors to take into account about the identity of National Dex, there is one other thing i should have mentionned in the main post : we should keep in mind why this format exist, and why people are playing it, and it was not only for the Pokemon that did not have their passport for the Galar region. Megas are a big one, but removed moves and items also are an important part of NatDex's identity. The positives of getting a sturdier, more future proof definition of National Dex by nuking them is largely outweighted by the community interest to keep them, both among the competitive and casual parts of the playerbase.

Furthermore, most cut moves and items have very straigthforward mechanics anyway, and extending them to the new gen additions usually does not need to make any wild assumptions (ex: the Z-Move base power table). If needed we even could add a section to the proposals, defining how NatDex should extend past gen in-battle mechanics (i might make an additional post about this eventually if i get the time to, but basically the idea would be : separating in-battle mechanics into generalizable and non-generalizable mechanics, which respectively would work like how Z-Move base powers (simple rule generalizable to everything) and Z-Status moves (individual arbitrary choices, so status moves introduced by new gens do not have a Z-Move effect) are currently implemented in NatDex.).

---
Proposals A and B most notable impacts in practice
(felt like there might be some confusion about this, so wanted to make it clearer here. Its basically a less detailled and justified version of the OP.)
-Both proposals keep the status quo from how National Dex was defined in gen8 (except for the existence of Mega-Rayquaza, which is nuked by proposal A - though this Pokemon could be kept legal in gen8nationaldexag for historical reasons.), so every item, pokemon, move and ability available in gen8natdex will continue to exist in gen9natdex.
-In gen9:
>Proposal A keeps Z-Moves and Mega-Evolutions (Barring Mega-Rayquaza), as they are preserved through items, but nukes Dynamax in gen9, and will nuke Terastallization in gen10. In a nutshell, proposal A only stick with mechanics that are "physically" present in the teambuilder (items/abilities/pokemon/moves).
>Proposal B allows everything that Proposal A allows, but adds every mechanic that is given the status of "generational gimmick". Under this proposal, gen10natdex, for example, would have Dynamax, the Terastal phenomenon and whatever they are adding in gen10 coexisting.

Neither of these proposals deviates from the precedent set by gen8nationaldex (aside from Mega-Rayquaza). All they do are basically sharpening the current definition of National Dex - which was not thought with potential gen9+ additions in mind - giving us a more precise and consistent framework to deal with gen9 and what future generations will bring to us.

---
Any other mechanics (how moves, items and abilities work) should behave they way they do in the last Generation they are coded and usable, so Battle Bond and Protean should work the way they do in Gen 7, Zamazenta shouldn't learn Body Press... Remember the Play Rough Tapu Koko? This is exactly the same but nobody talks about it for any reason.
Zamazenta gets body press for the same reason Blastoise got shell smash in early gen8nationaldex : those are post-home release movepools. These movepools ARE in the game, and legal in the code, but just can't be caught in the region. Tapu Koko was not even in the game until the second DLC, if i am not mistaken.

---
Personal opinion on the proposals
- I believe Proposal A would be a better identity for National Dex. We want our format to have consistent mechanics and hopefully being as future proof as possible, and having to include every new generational gimmicks gamefreak is going to add, coexisting with Dynamax and the Tera Phenomenon is a risk i do not think is worth taking. We also already lack people to implement Dynamax in gen9natdexag, and future natdex gens probably will be a nightmare to code if we adopt the proposal B.
- I am conflicted about home movepools and more generally additionnal legalities the game allow, assuming natdex-like transfers (like, should we allow the use of ability patch on Pokemon that are not in the game, like it was done with Heatran in natdex before the second DLC?). However i think it makes sense to take the state of the game as it currently is since natdex point is pretty much trying to emulate what gen9 + natdex addition will be. Taking the base game code to define the mechanics seems to be the less arbitrary choice possible to me, at least for things that are coded in.
- About natdex being defined for gen7+ transfers: i would not be opposed to allow transfer from everything from gen3 (less sure about gen2 stuff because movepools from this generation already are not transferrable to future generations), especially since, aside from gems (which were nerfed in gen6), that would not add a whole bunch of things, at least from my knowledge. We would get Pichu-Spiky-Eared, gen6 weird pikachu formes, and i think that's about it?
Edit:
-I think it would make sense to make Primals not being able to use Tera - or generational gimmicks in general - as they did not have access to dyna in gen9nationaldexag
 
Last edited:

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
Personal opinion on the proposals
- I believe Proposal A would be a better identity for National Dex. We want our format to have consistent mechanics and hopefully being as future proof as possible, and having to include every new generational gimmicks gamefreak is going to add, coexisting with Dynamax and the Tera Phenomenon is a risk i do not think is worth taking. We also already lack people to implement Dynamax in gen9natdexag, and future natdex gens probably will be a nightmare to code if we adopt the proposal B.
- I am conflicted about home movepools and more generally additionnal legalities the game allow, assuming natdex-like transfers (like, should we allow the use of ability patch on Pokemon that are not in the game, like it was done with Heatran in natdex before the second DLC?). However i think it makes sense to take the state of the game as it currently is since natdex point is pretty much trying to emulate what gen9 + natdex addition will be. Taking the base game code to define the mechanics seems to be the less arbitrary choice possible to me, at least for things that are coded in.
- About natdex being defined for gen7+ transfers: i would not be opposed to allow transfer from everything from gen3 (less sure about gen2 stuff because movepools from this generation already are not transferrable to future generations), especially since, aside from gems (which were nerfed in gen6), that would not add a whole bunch of things, at least from my knowledge. We would get Pichu-Spiky-Eared, gen6 weird pikachu formes, and i think that's about it?
- There's already somebody that is already willing to implement code for Dynamax and Teras to coexist, however, he's also waiting to see what this thread concludes with to go with that, as there's multiple ways to implement it (both in the teambuilder and mid-battle), and as for the last part, it shouldn't be too difficult to just reuse code as needed, as much as we can manage with GF adding more mons, moves, abilities and items per generation.
- As for the last paragraph, I'm sure this'd probably also include Eternal Flower Floette, Pokéstar Studios opponents, Partner Pikachu/Eevee and probably the Starmobile forms of Revavroom (next gens) and Eternamax Eternatus, some of those may only be relevant for NatDex Balanced Hackmons (notably with their strong signature moves), however.
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
- There's already somebody that is already willing to implement code for Dynamax and Teras to coexist, however, he's also waiting to see what this thread concludes with to go with that, as there's multiple ways to implement it (both in the teambuilder and mid-battle), and as for the last part, it shouldn't be too difficult to just reuse code as needed, as much as we can manage with GF adding more mons, moves, abilities and items per generation.
- As for the last paragraph, I'm sure this'd probably also include Eternal Flower Floette, Pokéstar Studios opponents, Partner Pikachu/Eevee and probably the Starmobile forms of Revavroom (next gens) and Eternamax Eternatus, some of those may only be relevant for NatDex Balanced Hackmons (notably with their strong signature moves), however.
-Even though we probably could code in dynamax this gen eventually, my main concern is that we would have to code in every generational gimmick into the game in the next games (following proposal B). We cannot predict what gamefreak is going to introduce in the next generations, and my concern is that there is a possibility that a new gimmick affects the game in a way that implementing every generational gimmicks at the same time would be too difficult, or would force us to make much more arbitrary choices.
-I dont think hackmons should be included, as a pokemon always had to be obtainable in order to be transferrable - this is not new to gen8 (the first "dexxited" generation). Partener Pikachu/Eevee are not transferrable to natdex for the same reason hisui formes aren't : they are not available in any of the mainline games.
 

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
- Well, NatDex is already well past the amount of arbitrary choices to fall as a Pet Mod, and that's entirely fine as I've said before, if a mistake is found in terms of something being more "accurately" handled in a manner that'd significantly affect a metagame after years of meta development, that kind of change can just be kept for the next generation.
Considering that we've gotten a once per battle/mon gen-specific mechanic in the last 4 gens (BTW, that's almost half of the gens in the series so far), it'd be reasonable to claim that we're most likely to keep getting similar gimmicks on that area, borderline cases and anything else can just be discussed as needed, again, being arbitrary when there's precedent for that isn't that bad, I do agree on just avoiding the capability of an individual mon to use more than one of them per battle, however.
- I presume you're defining mainline games as what's deemed here? If so, uh... we still get into weird areas as PLA (aka, Hisui) is indeed considered a core game, if anything defining this criteria more would help us go somewhere further.
 

dhelmise

banend doosre
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Social Media Head
- There's already somebody that is already willing to implement code for Dynamax and Teras to coexist, however, he's also waiting to see what this thread concludes with to go with that, as there's multiple ways to implement it (both in the teambuilder and mid-battle), and as for the last part, it shouldn't be too difficult to just reuse code as needed, as much as we can manage with GF adding more mons, moves, abilities and items per generation.
I don't like messing with the Terastal implementation just to appease National Dex. It's impossible to not have a Tera Type in-game in Gen 9, which is what PS simulates and what NatDex tries to base itself off of, so changing this is weird.
- As for the last paragraph, I'm sure this'd probably also include Eternal Flower Floette, Pokéstar Studios opponents, Partner Pikachu/Eevee and probably the Starmobile forms of Revavroom (next gens) and Eternamax Eternatus, some of those may only be relevant for NatDex Balanced Hackmons (notably with their strong signature moves), however.
The Revavroom starmobiles aren't even hackable this generation, so not entirely true.
- About natdex being defined for gen7+ transfers: i would not be opposed to allow transfer from everything from gen3 (less sure about gen2 stuff because movepools from this generation already are not transferrable to future generations), especially since, aside from gems (which were nerfed in gen6), that would not add a whole bunch of things, at least from my knowledge. We would get Pichu-Spiky-Eared, gen6 weird pikachu formes, and i think that's about it?
Spiky-eared Pichu isn't transferable from Gen 4 to Gen 5, so that wouldn't make sense to allow it when it wasn't transferable all the way back then. Same for Cosplay Pikachu and its formes. Eternal Floette wasn't transferable but had its game data in both gen 6 and 7 games, so there'd be no reason to not allow it now.
 

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
Apparently even the vanilla code in PS! is currently burdened to support NatDex on this regard, so if anything it's the other way around.
For example, according to qaz (who's willing to implement Tera-Dyna coexisting support):
1670119696401.png

Here's a bit of code on the server-wide (apparently) implementation for Teras, what's on red is the current implementation, what's on green is an edit to support Tera-Dyna coexisting. Red is checking for all the gimmicks. (Primals still ended up being able to terastallize), and it's even returning a null type if the mon has used a gimmick, meaning that it detects if another gimmick (like Mega Evolution) is currently applicable and thus takes more priority, disabling the option to Terastallize.

Meaning that this wouldn't really change the status quo in the code as far we can see.
 
Last edited:

dhelmise

banend doosre
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Social Media Head
Apparently even the vanilla code in PS! is currently burdened to support NatDex on this regard, so if anything it's the other way around.
For example, according to qaz (who's willing to implement Tera-Dyna coexisting support):

Here's a bit of code on the server-wide (apparently) implementation for Teras, what's on red is the current implementation, what's on green is an edit to support Tera-Dyna coexisting. Red is checking for all the gimmicks. (Primals still ended up being able to terastallize), and it's even returning a null type if the mon has used a gimmick, meaning that it detects if another gimmick (like Mega Evolution) is currently applicable and thus takes more priority, disabling the option to Terastallize.

Meaning that this wouldn't really change the status quo in the code as far we can see.
The image isn't loading. However, assuming you're referring to this code excerpt:
1670119049864.png


I wrote this. I copied the logic for Mega Evolution, Z-Moves, and Dynamax (might I note the former two do have precedent, see Dragon Ascent Rayquaza holding a Z-Crystal). However, what you're saying is wrong, and it's not really what people were requesting or inquiring about in the AG identity thread. Sure, we could easily implement dynamax if we forced a Pokemon to dynamax before anything else on the team could terastallize. But like I said, that's not what people were asking for.

People were asking about allowing the Dynamax and Terastallize buttons to appear at the same time. The reasons why these checks for the other gimmicks exist in every function similar to this one is because the sim currently doesn't support displaying multiple checkboxes at the same time. The function I posted a screenshot above also doesn't have anything to do with where the tera type is assigned. Check pokemon.ts and team-validator.ts to see how they're actually determined.

The thread post you linked referring to the user being willing to code this didn't show any proof of the buttons being used, so for all we know they just used the /move command to manually pick which one to do.

E: The code in your post disables terastallizing in Gen 10 natdex for some reason? Isn't that a big reason why this thread was created in the first place? Dynamax not being usable?
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
I've been asking around and it seems like there is some misunderstandings on how the proposals work, so to make it clear:

Neither of the proposals remove Z-Moves or Mega-Stones. Proposal A does not remove these.

I admit that the original post might be a bit cryptic, and might have been explained better, so let me clarify how they work (with some simplifications):
Proposal A

The only removed past-gen mechanics that are replicated in NatDex are the ones carried by one of the following:
  • Items
  • Abilities
  • Moves
In addition to these, removed Pokemon are added back with their old movepool + new movepool if they have one coded in. (This include post-home movepools additions, but does *not* include DLC movepools for reasons explained in post #10, see the part quoting Dorron). Since Z-Moves and Megas are carried by items, they would not be removed by this proposal.

Proposal B
Everything that exists under the proposal A will exist under the proposal B. To these are added every generational gimmicks (as defined in the first post) that are not carried by any of the above. These include:
  • Dynamax in gen9 and later
  • Tera in gen10 and later
  • Mega-Rayquaza in gen9 and later (I'm suggesting to not touch gen8ndag for historical reasons)

For reasons i outlined before, i believe proposal A is a better option (tldr: better futureproofing and less demanding in terms of programming ressources).


-
In addition to these proposals, i suggest making Pokemon unable to be able to use two generational gimmicks at the same time, taking gen8nationaldex and Mega-Rayquaza+Z-Moves interaction in gen7 as a precedent. (Megas and Z-Move users not being able to dyna, etc...).
Taking gen8nationaldex as a precedent (and to some extent making the parallel between them and Rayquaza), i also suggest classifying Kyogre and Groudon primal formes as a generational gimmick, to make it consistent with them not being able to Dynamax in gen8nationaldex, and thus making them unable to use tera, or any future generational gimmick that will be introduced.
 

Steorra

nya smells
is a Site Content Manageris a Member of Senior Staffis a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Discord Leader
speaking solely as myself,

I agree Proposal A is a much cleaner look on National Dex. In its base National Dex is meant to return initial pokemon, moves, items that were cut so I don't see much reason to return any main gen mechanics that don't have any requirements and are solely built into every pokemon (save a few exceptions) in that particular generation, and im guessing game freak had a similar logic line too.

Some might say don't fix what's not broken but there's a high chance game freak might continue down this line in terms of mechanics and well here already its proven to be a problem in terms of coding restraints, combined with the fact most things stay status quo i think this is a good change to do in advance.
 

aim

pokeaimMD
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Two-Time Past WCoP Champion
I've never been involved in National Dex in any way so I won't speak on behalf of those who have been playing this format for the past generation and what they've liked/not liked, but I was around when the whole concept of National Dex was put in to practice.

For a brief history lesson, back in E3 times of 2019 they basically announced that if a Pokémon wasn't available in the Galar dex it wouldn't be able to be transferred to Sword & Shield from the newly announced HOME service, essentially limiting the game to its regional dex that was estimated to be around 400 something at the time. This was a stark contrast from any earlier game where the full back catalog of Pokémon were available as soon it became possible to obtain them in various remakes, 3rd versions, or from transferring from an earlier generation. Naturally people were upset on the internet and after people had asked on Twitter, Zarel said that PS would have a format where all past Pokémon would be available to play with in the same format. Later on when people asked further, he also said that cut past gen mechanics like Megas and Z-moves could also be included in this format, but that exact details would be decided later on. Fast forward to about October/November and things were close to launch and a whole new format that could be very popular was basically going to exist and neither devs, tier leaders, or tournament directors seemed all that interested in taking care of this metagame that was dropped in our laps. To me the biggest problem was always how all of these mechanics (Dynamax, Megas, Primals, Z-moves, etc) would interact with each other because they never were supposed to in Gen 8 and would lead to people making definitive decisions on stuff that was in no way recreatable on cart. OU didn't want to be in charge of this format, neither would OM as it was essentially a Pet Mod in terms of how mechanics were decided, no one had stepped up to be a leader of it, and in the end it was just made live on PS quite unceremoniously and stuff had to be scrambled together out of necessity.

Now as you all know National Dex worked out quite fine in the end, having its own subforum, expanding in to various lower tiers, and getting quite popular on both the ladder, their own tournaments, and suspect tests. And speaking of suspect tests, not even Dynamax was spared in this format which leads to the question: what is the identity of National Dex? If it's to meld all Pokémon, all moves, and all mechanics then only National Dex AG would be considered National Dex (a metagame that was later split off from the AG that was ran in the OM forum). If National Dex is just supposed to be all Pokémon available in a generation when they aren't on cart, then why are cut mechanics and moves still available? While Megas are essentially a different form of a Pokémon, they're also a mechanic that was cut. What happens if Terastal potentially gets banned from National Dex, now you'll have two generations worth of major mechanics gone yet old stuff like Megas and Z-moves are still available just because they weren't broken, essentially creating a Gen 7 "Tradeback" metagame once more. What do you do next generation when Terastal gets scrapped, like Dynamax was this gen, and the new gimmick mechanic is introduced?

To me the only solution is to make National Dex as the current generation of mechanics, moves, etc, but with all Pokémon available that aren't reliant on cut mechanics. No Megas, no Primals, no Gigantamaxes, no Z-moves, no cut moves or items, and simply the movesets that a Pokémon had the last generation it was available (which might be less ideal if this gen's HOME decides to make past available moves untransferable similar to BDSP). From a mechanics standpoint you get way less that isn't verifiable on cart and you don't have to make nearly as many executive decisions. Banning a generation's major gimmick wouldn't be as major of a detriment to the format's identity, almost everything got rid of Dynamax last generation but those all had their distinct generational identity anyway. It's also futureproof, when Gen 10 rolls around National Dex would just be however that generation works + all the Pokémon that GF decided to not be available this time around.

The last thread was basically concluded with not changing the status quo in any major way because of how relatively late in the metagame's development it came about and this thread would probably have been even more effective if it happened a few weeks ago. But I hope we can still come to a different decision that doesn't just push this problem to a later time.
I don’t want to add much but i agree with this post. As much as I enjoyed nat dex last gen it really felt like Gen 7 OU + Gen 8 mons. Instead of a Gen 8 Nat Dex which would have followed the restrictions of gen 8 but added all the mons. My only gripe is that megas feel more like mons themselves thn a mechanic and i’d love for them to be able to coexist with all the other mons, seeing as these Pokemon that were in gen 6/7, gone in gen 8, are the reason i and many others even play nat dex. Them and donphan lmao. But i never understood why we needed cut moves like pursuit and z moves even if z moves are held items
 
Hello hello, little late for a conclusion to this thread but better late than never.

This is something we've discussed at length since National Dex was made really - how to futureproof National Dex, how to justify the mechanics and implementations we use without them being seemingly subjectively cherry picked, and mostly how to set precedent moving forward. With that being said we feel we have something concrete which can be used to both futureproof National Dex formats from being overloaded with mechanics and gimmicks, while still keeping the heart of the format, being everything is available.

Hypothetically, Pokémon and Items from after the Dex cuts happened can be transferred to the last game before the Dex cuts occurred, with alterations being made to accommodate Game Freaks changes to abilities, stats, and move nerfs/changes.

This is the foundation the National Dex leadership has agreed upon and I will go over a few reasons why I think it is the ideal definition. The main draw to this definition is that only mechanics that are tied to items or Pokemon themselves can be transferred back, meaning that this allows the format to keep Megas and Z crystals, while justifiably removing Dynamax this generation as you cannot transfer back the Dynamax Band that allowed Pokemon to Dynamax. The same will be true in generation 10, we cannot transfer back Tera Orb and therefore Tera will become unusable.

This method also explains why Pokemon get to keep removed moves, are still affected by changes made between generations, and differently to proposal A, also justifies the existence of Mega Rayquaza.

We chose to move forward with a definition which kept the metagames heart still in the fact that it allows for interactions between metagame mechanics you wouldn't normally see, as even if that is not what the point of creating the metagame was in the beginning, it is what the metagame has become and what the vast majority of our player base enjoy about it, on top of it being the main driving force behind attracting new players. It just wouldn't be right to change what the formats identity has become so far into its life.

So yeah, going forward, this is the definition of National Dex and is what will be used to justify Mechanics, Legality Issues/Changes, which generational gimmicks are useable, and just generally how things work. This luckily maintains how National Dex currently functions under its umbrella so no changes will be made for the foreseeable, it simply addresses the future issue of having too much in the pot!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 4)

Top