The Identity of National Dex

[astralydia]

With the recent HOME TM / TR movepool updates National Dex has once again been put into strife about what its actual meaning is. There have been numerous complaints over the months about transfer only Z-moves being compatible with SS moves (such as Clangorous Soulblaze + Clangorous Soul) as well as questioning the identity of the metagame and what it stands for. The current plan right now for me is botched and has not been thought out properly: the aim is to add in TM / TR content but not release Hidden Abilities for SS mons and make a confusion as to what unreleased content actually is. As there is no way to currently obtain TM / TR movepools in HOME, I would consider these moves unreleased despite National Dex already making a leap with Megas and Z moves, however, I do believe that there is a justification for this. Thus, I suggest three options moving forward:

1) National Dex becomes HOME but with no extra modifications.

There has been a lot of commentary on why this should be the format for National Dex as it makes no contradictions with other elements in SS. From what I can tell this is the easiest solution to come to: it includes the National Dex and no extra things around the edges to make the metagame a bit more spiced up. However, I do not think that this should be the solution going forward - not only does it unreasonably detract former mechanics that were not broken for their respective generation, but I also believe that it infringes on the idea of having an expanded Pokedex for a metagame as it removes part of the freedom that National Dex has for its metagame. One thing we do not also know is if Mega Evolutions and Z moves are going to be returning at a future date - this would arguably introduce an issue that other metagames have been suffering from by SS and that is the shorter release schedule. Having a more stable metagame that can help accomodate for potential changes in the metagame is ideal, as it would allow for a more structured metagame development and make council decisions easier to make, without strife from the community.

2) National Dex becomes HOME, but adds Mega Evolutions and Z moves (as mechanics that were once obtainable but no longer exist in SS, however still get representation)

Pre TM / TR release, this was the current path and I feel that this is the path that I would continue to go down if I were the Tier Leader. Mega Evolutions and Z moves have a place as mechanics that expand the possibilities of the teambuilder and the overall experience of playing National Dex: this solution arguably gives the easiest gate of entry for players from previous generations which liked the style of SM and wished for a metagame that would satisfy this gap. The main issues with going down this path are that a degree of subjectivity is still pushed onto this style of tier (i.e what counts as 'unreleased' content and what counts as discarded content: an example of this is the Berserk Gene discussion, but since this item is non-transferrable, and Z moves / Mega Stones exist in the code of SS, it provides a justification against this statement), and that the metagame ends up effectively being an 'SM part 2', as blunder would put it. As this path is the current one, this would provide the least turbulence in the short term but could also collide with content being released in SS. However, I think there are also problems with releasing everything unreleased in SS too:

3) National Dex releases all unreleased content from Generation 3-8, such as TM / TR movepools and Hidden Abilities (Libero Cinderace, Grassy Surge Rillaboom, Sniper Inteleon).

This would be the edit I would make to the current proposed change - TM / TR movepools are unobtainable in HOME and thus if this were to be true to the nature of an unrestricted National Dex metagame then not only should TM / TR data be released but Hidden Abilities should also be released as both of them are likely to be obtainable in a later date. The main advantages of this are that it creates a similar metagame to Dream World OU: disadvantages lie in that some content may stay unreleased (notable examples include Shadow Tag Chandelure and Floette-Eternal). Another issue with adding TM / TR movepools are that some of these Pokemon may stay unreleased and also lack level up movepools, indicating that the content in these are potentially unfinished. The nail in the coffin for this could also be that Unown is shown to have a 'Nope!' movepool in the code for SS.

Some footer notes to also consider are where moves deleted from SS also lie - I would argue that deleted moves from SS should be legal in National Dex as they are legitimately obtainable in Pokemon HOME but also cause subjectivity issues from SS mons that would love to get the move but are unable to due to the lack of it being in the game. Should Floette-Eternal be legal despite never being officially released even in its lifetime of existence in XY and SM?

Overall I feel like there should be some change in the way that National Dex is formed so that pointless arguments can be put to rest over what the metagame is defined as. Countless rants have been had from professional players about the metagame so I'm writing this to open up that potential discussion over what National Dex should really be.

 

[lydian]

I fully agree with Chazm that there is an incongruence in say allowing the leaked TMs / TRs but not allowing starter HAs, for example. And I feel like picking either of these three options as a foundation would be the way to go to avoid inconsistencies and confusion. Like I've mentioned in the Discord I feel like option 3 is the way to go, simply because it's simply the clearest option we have at hand, it's hard to draw a line on what's fair game and what's not. Going with what's available in Home also brings the problem of butchering previous mechanics like Mega Stones' and Z Crystals' functionability, which in my opinion is a big part of Nat Dex's identity. Allowing them while they're not in Home feels rather wack to me, so it wouldn't be my preferred option, personally. The other problem of using Home for eligibility is that Home isn't really a format you can battle on, so it feels relatively weird to me in that sense, although it's still definitely the best option in the table, were option 3 to be seen as "too much"! So yeah my preference lies in all unreleased content being available because it just feels more cohesive and intuitive, Libero Cinderace, Aura Sphere Latios, maybe even Floette-E, I think it all should be fair game. It just looks to me as the best way to draw the line. But again, I understand and see the validity of the two other options and I think they have their merits as well.

 

[The Immortal]

National Dex was born on the thought that Pokemon were being deleted from future generations. Then mechanics were subjectively added. Z-Crystals? Yeah, let's bring those back. Other items that no longer exist? No let's ignore those. Oh GameFreak let TM data leak into HOME for Pokemon that don't exist in Sw/Sh but might exist in the future? Yeah let's throw those in too! (This hasn't been implemented yet but I can confirm that it is the intention...) Unreleased hidden abilities? No, let's ignore those.

The identity of National Dex is the availability of all Pokemon, that is all base Pokemon and Mega Evolutions. Anything else should not be in this format. Period. Z-Moves, no longer usable moves, and things that have never even been released shouldn't be in the format. The current mishmash pet mod that we have is often looked upon as a joke. Something needs to be done.

 

[Chloe]

I strongly agree with a heavily adjusted third proposed option here, as it really just makes the most sense. National Dex as a concept should be trying to imitate a metagame in which all Pokemon have eventually been added to Sword and Shield, rather than a fantasy metagame in which we pick and choose random concepts from previous generations and debate upon our interpretations of how they'd interract with each other. Mega Evolution and Z-moves should not exist within National Dex formats.

It makes complete sense to include the unreleased TRs and TMs as these Pokemon will eventually obtain these when/if added to Sword and Shield. As I said, our intention should be to imitate a metagame in which all Pokemon have been added, and we are aware that these TRs and TMs will be usable once these Pokemon are added. Unreleased abilities might as well be released under this logic too; however, this isn't as clear-cut a decision in my mind. Pokemon that were never released such as Floette-Eternal should remain unreleased though.

Deleted moves such as Hidden Power, Pursuit and Return should remain unusable, as we're following Generation 8's mechanics and rules, which clearly state they cannot be used. As I stated earlier, we should be attempting to mimic a potential metagame in which Pokemon have been added to Sword and Shield, not one in which we allow moves that Game Freak very clearly intended to stay removed this generation. Adjusting this solution for Unown is unnecessary, and should not be a reason for us to change the rules.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Hey all, total outsider who hasn't played a single game of National Dex OU or AG here, so please take what I have to say with a kiloton of salt, even if I consider myself to have enough meta knowledge from third party observation to make some compelling points.

For starters, I fully agree that in order to solve National Dex's identity crisis some of the fat has to be trimmed. One of these tenants would include immediately expunging Z-Moves from the metagame, especially if the current "new gen 8 moves don't have Z versions" rule is not changed. But if those are nuked, then something else has to go down with them...

Look, I get it. Mega Evolutions are really fun. They give old Pokemon new designs, stats and abilities, making them ripe for competitive use whether it be turning shit into gold like Lopunny or revitalizing powercrept classics like Metagross. But if the goal here is to streamline National Dex and make it less of a chaotic hellhole, they have to go. For one thing they are prone to just as many, if not more wonky unintended interactions than Z-Moves: Stuff like Shell Smash Mega Blastoise and in AG's case Nasty Plot Encore Mega Gengar were clearly never intended to happen and with the Home TM/TR datamines these metas are facing the prospect of stuff like Nasty Plot Mega Alakazam, Mega Diancie and Latis with ultra-enhanced coverage and Close Combat/U-turn Mega Lopunny in addition to the Scrappy buff it already benefited from. I'm not saying all of these are or will be broken, but the fact of the matter is considering the games' decision to omit Megas while introducing these new options for the Pokemon who once had them they were probably not supposed to mix. Going back to AG, there's also the fact that neither Z-Moves or Mega Evolutions were intended to interact at all with Dynamax, which has led to all kinds of "non-canon" clauses about the usage of the mechanics being enacted, and at that point as others have pointed out this is basically a Pet Mod since we're making our own calls on how certain mechanics interact.

The only "argument" presented thus far for keeping Megas is that they could technically be considered new Pokemon or at least fundamental parts of them. Personally, I think that if we are gonna run with this logic then we also have to keep Z-Moves since without them AG will be left without access to Ultra Necrozma, which just can't happen if we take this hardline stance to preserving every single Pokemon form in addition to the mons themselves. This also opens up the weird gray area arguments like allowing previously blocked-off Pokemon forms like Spiky Eared Pichu and items like Berserk Gene that have been a common talking point ever since the decision to allow Megas in National Dex formats was conceived basically. Mega Evolutions in particular were often created many generations/games after their base forms were conceived, so even when looking at it that way the argument for keeping them is flawed since they were never big parts of the base forms' designs or presence for a decently long while.

In short: No games. The only thing kept from past generations that isn't in SWSH should be snapped Pokemon. For the sake of consistency, everything else - Megas, Z-Moves, Snapped moves - must go.

 

[Jho]

I have played this meta a lot and since joining NatDex I have always operated under the assumption that the metagame is Generation 7 + Generation 8 additions. This made the most sense to me from playing it and accounted for everything that was in the meta from Z-Moves, to Mega Pokemon, to the Gen 8 items. However, after talking to a lot of people from around the site about NatDex it became clear pretty fast that the majority of people did not like this implementation because it could never actually exist and lead to a lot of convoluted mechanics (see the mechanics thread) that are in some parts, educated guesses at how they would work because we don't actually know.

Operating under the assumption that we are Gen7+, it makes no sense to me to include the data mined TRs from Home, as they are not in SWSH yet. It also makes little sense to me to add all of the unreleased items/Pokemon/abilities under this identity. If we are to continue using this structure, the meta should stay how it is currently and only gain new additions as they are added to standard Generation 8.

However, as many people are not fans of the current implementation, I can see the merit in changing to a Gen8+ all mons format. While I love the meta as Generation 7+, I think a change such as this would greatly improve the optics towards the meta and as a result, improve its longevity as a metagame. With some recent high profile disagreements on the state of National Dex, I do believe if we want to improve this, adopting to Generation 8 mechanics whilst maintaining the identity of National Dex, the ability to use all Pokemon, would be the most straight forward change that would satisfy the complaints about the meta being unable to exist, whilst also having the least impact on the metagame (granted no Z moves and pursuit etc would still be a massive change but less so then introducing Berserk Gene and Floette-AZ and everything else lost or unreleased).

To link this back to the OP, I guess my stance is really anything but Option 3, as it honestly makes no sense. Option 2 maintains the current meta, which everyone who plays it has enjoyed and whilst not the most intuitive, is functional despite never being able to actually exist. Option 2 currently has a lot of people who really dislike the implementation as I have said before, so perhaps looking to change it to a more accurate Generation 8 meta implementation would be favourable, which doesn't really fall under a category in the OP.

 

[Ransei]

Heyo, it seems people are trying to figure out how to give this sort of project an identity. If identity is what you want, identity is what I have to offer. Sit yourself down and have a cold drink while you read into the depths of my wacky thought process.

So I think when it comes to what we want done with National Dex and what it stands I think there are two different ways this could be settled.

We could either go with Chazm's first option, turning National Dex into Pokemon Home with no extra modifications. This would mean we should rename National Dex to Pokemon Home while treating it as if it had a battle simulator on its own. All Pokemon would be in their base formes and will be able to use moves that aren't in Sword and Shield as long as they are transferable to Home.

My second approach is that we go on a Pure National Dex route.
This is a format which allows every Pokemon and forme recorded in the Pokedex. This includes unreleased Pokemon, primal reversions, mega evolutions, gigantamax formes, and any other Pokemon who change under specific requirements. Z-moves would not be included since this would simply just be about the Pokemon on the dex. It would be treated as if the National Dex had a battle simulation mode itself. Every Pokemon forme would be a base forme and are only able to use moves they or their actual base formes could naturally learn, either through level-up, evolution, breeding, tutoring, or past events. Gigantamax formes would not gain anything since they keep the same stats and only just gain these moves with a SwSh exclusive stat boost mechanic. They can be used if the player want their Pokemon to hog up the screen. This format aims to bring out the best in every individual Pokemon forme with only the raw information we have of them. They will have their stats, typing, natural abilities, EVs, IVs, and everything else that determines a standard Pokemon, but this would not be based on any particular Pokemon game. The only thing that would be removed are items, as items don't necessarily determine raw information on any Pokemon and are only there apart from the Pokemon themselves to help support them. Items also don't have a place on National Dex itself there would also be no way to have a full list of items without plenty of them being influenced by a particular game and its mechanics. For example, Z-Crystals allowed Pokemon to have amped up moves on their own in Gen 7 but no longer function in Gen 8 and items like Berserk Gene haven't been in the game since Gen 2. Sure someone could argue Z-Moves are like Mega Evolutions in that they were temporary gimmicks respective to certain generations and are no longer in the present gen, but the difference would be that Mega Evolutions change a Pokemon's forme and those formes are recorded and are a part of the National Dex itself. This is perhaps the most simple and accurate way to put forth the National Dex as a PS! format.

Unfortunately this route would also mean Eternamax gets freed into Natdex AG, you could run six of them, and they could Recover. Rest in peace Pure Natdex AG :(. On the bright side, the lower tiers could become interesting.

Either way I don't necessarily think we should base these formats off "if these Pokemon were allowed in Sword and Shield, since they already lose many of their natural moves that were strictly removed because they weren't in the games, mechanics become conflicting due to the functions of z-moves and mega evolution, and it doesn't really become any less arbitrary than the rest of these ideas. They even lose a bit of their identity following this trend. We should simply base it off all the information we have of the Pokemon already in all the games they were in with the latest info and truly base it either on if we were to battle on a sim in the National Dex or a sim in Pokemon Home.

Also, "National Dex" should be Natdex AG instead of Natdex OU. OU is the standard tier for Smogon sure, but we're basing this off the actual game which is AG.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so I feel that whatever conclusion we come up to in regards to what National Dex should be defined as moving forward will always be a subjective change in which any path chosen will always have a select group of people discontent (given how inherently National Dex is as a "theory-crafted" tier). Based on my own personal viewpoint and viewpoints of others who actively play the National Dex metagame (excluding National Dex AG here), the community was rather content on the way things were heading up until the Home Moveset data leaks occured.

Initially, we intended on merging in the additional moves brought forth from the leaked data based on the rationale that eventually GF will implement the rest of the dexited Pokemon with these updated movepools. However, the leaks also contained data for game exclusive forms such as Starter-Eeevee/Pikachu alongside the fact that contention may arise upon whether or not all "unreleased" elements (think gen 8 Starter HAs, Berserk Gene, other misc stuff) should all be brought back in if we do decide to implement Home movepool data. After considering this point, I think it does make the most sense to ignore the Home Movepool leaked data for now until the official DLC drops and we can confirm what movepool changes are actually brought forth to the game and avoid situations in which "unreleased" stuff is wrongfully implemented (of course the term unreleased is used relatively here under the scope of National Dex including dexited mons already).

I wanna bring up the point regarding mega & z move inclusion since this is an argument that keeps getting brought up so I might as well settle my thoughts on it once and for all in a more constructive matter. The identity of National Dex has been somewhat abstract admittedly since no one really knew how the format should be conducted in initially once SS dropped and the sub-forum was made a couple of days afterwards. However, after some initial discussion, the specific forum mods concluded that we would direct the format in a way to act as a "Gen 7 metagame with gen 8 additions (ie: mons, items, mechanics, etc...), in order to allow all previously cut attributes from the SM games specifically a chance to be used alongside SS additions. While this may have involved some sort of theorycraft initially (think Hidden Power + Max move interactions) I think we made a solid attempt into giving a plausible explanation for each interaction between cut + new mechanics using evidence from pre-existing interactions seen in the SS cartridge. I feel people who bring up the argument of us being a "pet mod" forget that NatDex inherently is bringing in unobtainable elements into its metagames via the introduction of dexited mons, therefore there shouldn't necessarily be a worry as to making an "imaginary tier" since we will always be one to begin with until all previously cut mons are officially back in the game. The issue brought up with the selection of allowing certain items while cutting others seems quite tone-deaf considering that we only elected to bring back competitively viable items because in reality, who cares if an item such as the Dragon Scale is brought back (although this is a change that can easily be made in order to avoid "the selectivity" brought up in this thread before). Again, we based our metagame off of what was available in Gen 7, therefore arguments such as "what about Berserk Gene or the Gems" should already be addressed given that their availability was already officially cut in the previous game.

Again, we initially brought back z-moves and mega evolution to provide a chance for these mechanics to be used once more alongside the new additions of gen 8, and I personally feel that the argument upon whether or not they should stay would be totally be left up to subjectivity if we continue with the status quo behind National Dex falling under the category of "Gen 7 + gen 8 additions". Arguments about what is more balanced should not be brought up as it really should not be the deciding factor when determine big decisions such as these.

This is not me saying that I am not open to the idea of shifting the direction of National Dex, but I hope people understand that we have already allotted a lot of time and resources to the current mega evo + z move metagame (w/o home movepool additions ofc), and enacting big changes such as this can really delay the progress of the metagame on top of setting a bad precedence. Again, "it being too late" should never hold back any decision, but going back and forth with the core identity and definition of the sub-format 4 months after it's creation is rather tedious and is something that should be avoided if we want metagame stability imho. Also, we gotta take into consideration the addition of DLC to the game, and how that may blur the distinction between official tiers and NatDex especially if we remove previously cut mechanics, items, moves, etc...

Sorry if parts of my post don't make sense as english is not my mother tongue, but hopefully I was able to get some points across.

 

[UltiMario]

Funbot28 literally beating me to the punch on this opinion in this middle of me typing this, but I'll post it anyways

Considering this topic is in relation to the unreleased TM/TR movepools, I do want to voice a concern when it comes to blindly implementing the datamined list. Keep in mind that this is speculative, but there's some sketchy things that raise questions, and makes it appear that the work on the list is a work in progress. Many Megas have their own movepools for unknown reasons, but also have some issues where their movepool is lacking certain TMs/TRs that their base forms have, with other Megas having their movepools scrubbed entirely, and I can't think of a reason why it would be this way other than it simply being unfinished. There's also Scald Raikou, which feels like a blatant mistake that's going to be quickly fixed before release.

Also very notably, Gen 4's movepools were touched sparsley compared to other gens. Out of the ~90 or so mons to receive literally zero movepool updates, the biggest chunk of them are Gen 4 mons. This is extremely suspicious, considering the likelyhood of either a Gen 4 remake or Sinnoh-related game on the horizon, and it seems like an odd choice for basically only Lopunny to end up with an actually interesting addition across the entire generation. I wouldn't be surprised if these movepools weren't final at all, and were going to change drastically within the next year+ of development before many of these mons will ever actually be released during Gen 8.

So I would be against implementing the leaked TR/TM list on the basis that it's potentially inaccurate. It's much better to not release these movepools onto the ladder at all, rather than implementing them and then having to undo them later if they turn out to be wrong. It undermines the logistics of the ladder, the metagame, and analyses to take into account threats that might never exist.

 

[Zarel]

Deleted moves such as Hidden Power, Pursuit and Return should remain unusable, as we're following Generation 8's mechanics and rules, which clearly state they cannot be used.

So, out of curiosity, what happens to Unown in this situation?

I think if we're bringing back deleted Pokémon, it makes sense to also bring back the mechanic that the Pokémon is based around. Like it doesn't make sense to bring back Zoroark without also bringing back Illusion, etc.

 

[Chloe]

So, out of curiosity, what happens to Unown in this situation?

I think if we're bringing back deleted Pokémon, it makes sense to also bring back the mechanic that the Pokémon is based around. Like it doesn't make sense to bring back Zoroark without also bringing back Illusion, etc.

I assume Unown would be "allowed", but given no moves in the teambuilder. While it allows one less Pokemon in a format that is essentially attempting to allow all, I feel as if it's a fair sacrifice to make, especially because of the evidence stating that in Gen 8, they do not intend to give Unown any usable moves.

 

[TheMantyke]

I haven't played any games of National Dex, but I think I can at least offer the perspective of what your average random user is thinking / wants with the TR / TM data situation.

I feel the new TM and TR data should be implemented into the national dex format. It's a major draw towards wanting to play the format in the first place, just right behind getting to use the snapped mons. There's a chance the information's wrong or not everything releases in the end and things go the way of Shadow Tag Chandelure but I think a lot of players are perfectly okay with that? Playing with Close Combat Tapu Koko and Mystical Fire Latias sounds badass and extremely fun to try out. All the theorymon I've seen on the forums, discord, and twitter is a sure sign I'm not alone thinking that. People want to play with these moves and Natdex formats are the perfect grounds for it.

I'm not really sure how it goes against the metagame or the ladder letting threats that might not exist be around in a format where the central premise is playing with threats that don't exist. We had an entire format based on unreleased content in Gen 5 and I don't remember huge backlash or disappointment when so much stuff was released that DW didn't need to exist and there wasn't an easy way to play with Shadow Tag Chandelure or Lightning Rod Zapdos. If something like Scald Raikou is a mistake they plan to fix before it's released, so be it (And we've had even jankier nonsense like Steel Wing Elgyem get the greenlight for multiple generations). There's enough tantalizing unreleased content here with the new TMs and TRs, I would much rather be playing with it than worried it doesn't line up 1/1 with our post-DLC formats.

Regarding the movepools looking like a WIP, I'm not sure a lot of the features of the movepool info is atypical for these game dumps, if I'm not mistaken. Gen 7's big data dump had the same thing going on with megas having their own movepools. There's a fairly large amount of things getting moves back even if it's not particularly new, making old stuff that wasn't legal like, say, Mega Kick Ambipom legal with skill link or most things with their HA and Endure. For a less substanical argument since it's hard to meaningfully quantify this, but Gen 8 in general was just very conservative with the distribution of TMs, often with only fully evolved members of a family getting access to brand new attacks. Most everything that got Breaking Swipe is fully evolved, a fair chunk of the new CC out of old mons are only the final form, and I think Vespiquen is the only old mon that got Tspikes added out of the 400 galar mons. I would sooner chalk that "empty" feeling to some movepools to this than any planned later revisions or future games.

I assume Unown would be "allowed", but given no moves in the teambuilder. While it allows one less Pokemon in a format that is essentially attempting to allow all, I feel as if it's a fair sacrifice to make, especially because of the evidence stating that in Gen 8, they do not intend to give Unown any usable moves.

Technically, in game it still has the attack, it just can't select it. Unown in SWSH with its current movepool would just use Struggle as soon as you click attack. You can also do this auto-struggle stuff with any other Pokemon with at least one snapped attack in its movepool.

 

[Yung Dramps]

So uh... Anything gonna come out of this? It's been a bit over a month since the last post.

 

[Funbot28]

Sorry for not addressing this sooner, but the National Dex moderation has decided to keep the status quo and will not be going forward with any changes.

In regards to AG, it has already been decided that they will be switching to the Galar AG format as their primary focus, while still having National Dex AG have a ladder + reduced presence in tournaments.

National Dex has recently started the National Dex Circuit, meaning that enacting drastic changes such as potentially removing Z-Moves, Megas, or both from the format seems rather harsh and unnecessary this late into the metagame development and would completely derail tournaments / suspects that are occurring now and those that will happen in the future.

Community feedback is appreciated, but we have kind of came to a sort of consensus open how we want the format operating and hope that this discussion has settled the topic once and for all.