The Inverse Battle ǝɯɐƃɐʇǝɯ

Status
Not open for further replies.
EDIT: Mewtwo-X/Y are all of a sudden allowed in inverse battles!?
It's a "glitch" of sorts. Mewtwo is banned, but technically Mewtwo-Mega X/Y aren't, as in you can select one of the Mega Mewtwos in the teambuilder and use Mewtwo (The Mega Mewtwos revert back to Normal Mewtwo in battle)
 
  • Like
Reactions: EV
Here's an extremely successful set i've been using in the ladder:


Mienshao @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 200 Atk / 252 SDef / 56 HP
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off

At first glance, this set looks extremely odd, but it's actually very effective in this meta! Speed is not needed for this set to work, instead, it functions as an offensive pivot capable of supporting the team and tanking special attacks such as Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball. Here are some calculations to showcase its utility:


Attacks against Mienshao:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 56 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 118-141 (41.4 - 49.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 133-156 (46.6 - 54.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 56 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 77-91 (27 - 31.9%)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 56 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 116-136 (40.7 - 47.7%)

Attacks by Mienshao:
200 Atk Mienshao Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 77-91 (30.6 - 36.2%)
200 Atk Mienshao Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 100-118 (38.3 - 45.2%)
200 Atk Mienshao U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 344-408 (131.8 - 156.3%)
200 Atk Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%)


Based on these calculations, you can see that Mienshao can constantly switch in and use its decent spdef to act as a great offensive pivot that can quickly annoy its opponents by scouting, knocking off, hitting hard with HJK, or constantly abusing Fake Out to slowly damage the opponent. Go give this set a try before any of you raise judgment, it works surprisingly well if you know how to use it, I often find my self depending on him.

 
Last edited:
Calculations alone don't necessarily show off a Pokemon's bulk. Resistances only to Flying-, Fairy-, and Psychic-type attacks certainly isn't helping it (especially when Psychic is still a mediocre attacking type, even in inverse where it only hits awful Steel-types, opposing Psychic-types, and Dark-types for super effective damage). On top of that, it's weak to the now great Bug-type as well as Stealth Rock. On that note especially, Mienshao's weakness to Stealth Rock does it absolutely no favors. Sure, Regenerator helps handle the Stealth Rock weakness, but it hinders its ability to switch in drastically, especially considering it has incredibly mediocre HP and Special Defense. For example, you can't switch into Mega Gengar and beat it because it 2HKOs after Stealth Rock damage. On top of that, Life Orb Alakazam really isn't a thing, and even if it was, it's certainly not that hard to take on. Overall, Assault Vest Mienshao just seems really, really mediocre. You're trying to turn a glass cannon into a bulky pivot, which isn't going to work out well in theory or in practice.
 
Some of the most common Pokemon in this meta are tanked by Mienshao (Alakazam is very common.)
Additionally, Stealth Rock is not a common sight in inverse battles, and fighting is actually very good defensively because it allows you to counter some very dangerous threats consistently such as Reuniclus. I'm backing all this up with actual testing, I doubt you even gave the set a try.
 

Arcticblast

free DAMAGE combo in expanded
is a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Simulator Driveris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
Why use a glass cannon as a bulky pivot that still falls to most of the biggest threats in the tier because it has terrible Defense?

All singles tiers that allow them will eventually turn to entry hazards. If DPP UU - the "best metagame of all time" - did it, then so can Inverse.

Also, and this goes for everyone, don't make "I tested this, did you?" posts. Not only do the OM ladders tend to be at a lower skill level than other ladders, but it makes you look like a jackass. Just don't.
 
Psychic is still a mediocre attacking type, even in inverse where it only hits awful Steel-types, opposing Psychic-types, and Dark-types for super effective damage).
This is simply 100% false. Psychic only has 2 resists in the tier, fighting and poison, both being generally bad types in inverse, and access to psyshock, allowing things like Alakazam and Reuniclus to shred through most walls. Think of it as Dragon types, except both types that resist it aren't nearly as good as steel and fairy are.

On top of that, Life Orb Alakazam really isn't a thing
How much Inverse have you played? It's one of the most common threats...

Why use a glass cannon as a bulky pivot that still falls to most of the biggest threats in the tier because it has terrible Defense?

All singles tiers that allow them will eventually turn to entry hazards. If DPP UU - the "best metagame of all time" - did it, then so can Inverse.

Also, and this goes for everyone, don't make "I tested this, did you?" posts. Not only do the OM ladders tend to be at a lower skill level than other ladders, but it makes you look like a jackass. Just don't.
I have also tested this Mienshao on my stall team and it is indeed very potent (Though I prefer a 252hp / 216+spd / 40spe EV distribution and Drain Punch over Fake Out.). Even I though it may look shaky when you look at it, it is one of the few counters to things such as Alakazam and Reuniclus, 2 very dangerous threats to stall teams as Adrian has already mentioned. Toxic doesn't phaze it at all, and Knock off really does wear things down and Regenerator + U-Turn is fantastic paired with residual damage. Even if Stealth Rock was common spinblocking is impossible and Avalugg can easily spin them away with its many switch-in opportunities. Heck, with Stealth Rock is up Mienshao is still healing 8% per switch-in.

I agree, it looks bad on paper and I initially dismissed it. But don't knock it before you try it applies very much in this situation.
 
Last edited:

jas61292

used substitute
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
Honestly, I have to disagree about Alakazam being a threat, especially LO Zam. I love LO Zam, don't get me wrong, but the name of the game in this tier is hitting hard and fast with physical attacks. Priority is everywhere, and the only real reason to even run any special attackers at all is to remove Avalugg. That doesn't mean special attacking is bad, but you really need to do something special to earn that teamslot, especially if your main offensive move is going to be psyshock (and as such, useless on Avalugg). With that said, Alakazam does have such a niche, but that niche is Sash revenging, not LO attacking. In a game with all this priority, Zam is pretty much strictly outclassed by bulkier Pokemon in the sweeper role.

I think the biggest flaw to the above arguments is simply that they base their claims around using Pokemon like Alakazam to beat Stall, when, at the highest levels of play on the inverse ladder, Stall does not exist. It is simply unworkable when every good attacker in the game is unresisted, and there are a total of like two special walls and one physical wall actually strong enough to take hits from these threats, as all the classic walls with good defensive stats have god awful typings in the Inverse metagame. Simply put, stall is not a viable playstyle, and being able to beat it is not something rare and noteworthy. Its simply standard fare.

With that said, using pokemon specifically to counter such a Pokemon as Alakazam is a very questionable move in my mind. Un-STABed Fake Out (or really just most Fake Outs in general) is generally a crap move, and I don't think Mienshao is much of an exception. Fight is also a pretty garbage offensive typing in this meta. Hitting flying is good, but Psychic, Bug and Poison are still not all that common, and it is resisted by a ton of things, including Normal and Ice, which are killer things to have resist your main STAB. I won't hit on the utility of Knock Off or U-Turn, but I simply don't see why I would want Mienshao for that role here. Again, it really comes down to one thing: why use this Pokemon when you can instead use Normal Offense? That is the question all Pokemon face here, and again, I can't really see any reason to with Mienshao.
 
I think the biggest flaw to the above arguments is simply that they base their claims around using Pokemon like Alakazam to beat Stall, when, at the highest levels of play on the inverse ladder, Stall does not exist. It is simply unworkable when every good attacker in the game is unresisted, and there are a total of like two special walls and one physical wall actually strong enough to take hits from these threats, as all the classic walls with good defensive stats have god awful typings in the Inverse metagame. Simply put, stall is not a viable playstyle, and being able to beat it is not something rare and noteworthy. Its simply standard fare.
While normal offense is a very good playstyle, stall is equally viable. The Chanslugg core backed up with a few additional mons to deal with things such as Diggersby to me has proven to be very potent in the Inverse metagame, and Alakazam usually has an easy time dealing with those. While I agree with you Alakazam isn't that great, it's common enough to merit getting a counter for if you're dedicated to walling various threats.

I've seen many more players than me using stall, and I'm heavily inclined to say it's a major part of higher-level play. I've seen at least 3 of the top 10 (Including the current #1) use 5+ defensive mons on their team and toxic spikes to devastating effect. It's worth noting though that the only reason these playstyles succeed is the incredible strength of the Chanslugg core itself - if it is broken the team is usually far easier to pick apart.
 
Last edited:

Arcticblast

free DAMAGE combo in expanded
is a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Simulator Driveris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
Banned mega mewtwos, we have a bug that allows megas which have their base forme banned... on all of showdown. Geez.
Because you have to ban both the regular forme and the mega; I banned both of them from Doubles :|
 
Kyurem, and Kyu-B are definitely going to become a top threat, both defensively and offensively, I can see a defensive Roost set being used to great effect as a mixed wall with Toxic, Roost and offensive coverage.
 
Simply put, stall is not a viable playstyle, and being able to beat it is not something rare and noteworthy. Its simply standard fare.
I have to disagree, at least until you provide solid arguments for this statement.

It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that your arguments are all based on this false assumption:
This set is also very notable for being one of the only physical attackers in the game that not only can take on Avalugg, but loves facing it, as it is an opportunity for a free set up (baring the rare Roar Avalugg).
The thing is, there is no reason why Avalugg shouldn't use Roar. If it doesn't, it's simply because, as someone said, the level of skill in new metagames is always lower. People need to adapt.

Avalugg has one big selling point: it has such a good physical defense that no physical attacker is able to 2HKO it. Being able to 3HKO is already quite a feature (but not very useful since it has Recover).
Now, what is the most natural intuitive way to deal with this problem? Setting up. With enough stat boosts, you can overcome any obstacle.
A player using Avalugg has to account for that, by giving Avalugg Roar. It makes absolutely no sense using Avalugg without Roar, because Avalugg's job is to wall physical attackers, and Avalugg can't do its job without Roar. It'd make just as much sense as using Blissey/Chansey without Softboiled.

Physical attackers don't work very well in this metagame, unless you have a plan to deal with Avalugg. Making statements about how good some Pokémon are under the assumption that "Avalugg with Roar is rare," is not relevant to any serious discussion.

Unresisted Normal STAB is awesome and all, but people seem to forget you don't need to resist an attack to wall it. Heck, Chansey/Blissey has been the prime special wall since the beginning of Pokémon and she has no special resistances to talk about.
In fact so far I've been using Tangrowth as a physical wall, because people are so hyped about unresisted Normal STAB, that I rarely face something with Earthquake. This might change eventually, but so far it's been one of my most useful Pokémon.

Which brings me to my next point: I don't see how Staraptor and Swellow can be considered any good. What physical wall are you hoping to take down with them exactly? Flying is a poor offensive type, since it isn't SE against anything remotely useful and it's resisted by both Grass and Bug. Defensely, Flying gives you immunity to most hazards, but that's it: you have to pay with a weakness to Bug, Grass, and Ground for that. Weakness to Grass is especially bad, because if you don't kill, the opponent is just going to recover the damage you dealt with Giga Drain/Horn Leech.



Which again brings me to my next point. I'm very glad to see that this metagame is getting supported by Smogon, but I wish the people in charge with the banlists were a little more serious in doing their job.
When Deoxys and Blaziken were banned from standard OU, the players were given good motivations. You could definitely see that some thought had been put in those bans.

In this topic, on the other hand, I've read things like "Ho-Oh has to be banned because it resists SR and has Regenerator," and "Yveltal isn't to be banned because its typing is now bad, no matter that it has Uber-level stats."
I'm sorry, but these are not serious arguments. Ho-Oh now takes almost no damage from SR, great, but that's a very narrow analysis. No one mentioned, for example, that Fire/Flying sucks as a typing, both offensively and defensively. How are we not banning Yveltal because it's got apparently such an atrocious typing, and yet Ho-Oh, which is x4 weak to Grass, x4 weak to Bug, and has both its STAB resisted by those same types, strikes so much fear?
Now, please bear in mind, I'm not saying Ho-Oh shouldn't be Uber. Its STAB aren't that great, but its movepool is very good, it can cover that. What I'm saying is that it makes no sense giving it (and no one else bar Arceus) this special treatment, this quickban, on the simple ground that it's not weak to SR anymore.

And it especially doesn't make sense when we compare Ho-Oh's situation with Yveltal's. Why is Yveltal's typing suddenly considered bad? It's got the same Flying typing as Ho-Oh. The difference is that Yveltal's other type (Dark as opposed to Fire) is actually good instead of bad in this metagame.
Is it because of their abilities? Thanks to Dark Aura, Yveltal has got the strongest priority move in the whole metagame: Dark Aura-boosted STAB Sucker Punch. Dark Aura also gives it the ability to go mixed: invest everything in Attack and nail physical walls with Dark Aura-boosted STAB Dark Pulses (or vice versa).
Again, what is the reason Yveltal is considered worse compared to the standard metagame? What does it lose? Is it because of the Grass weakness? Even assuming the Grass attacker can survive a Sucker Punch, Yveltal has got 126 / 95 / 98 defensive stats and Roost.
 
Last edited:

jas61292

used substitute
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
Physical attackers don't work very well in this metagame, unless you have a plan to deal with Avalugg. Making statements about how good some Pokémon are under the assumption that "Avalugg with Roar is rare," is not relevant to any serious discussion.

Unresisted Normal STAB is awesome and all, but people seem to forget you don't need to resist an attack to wall it. Heck, Chansey/Blissey has been the prime special wall since the beginning of Pokémon and she has no special resistances to talk about.
In fact so far I've been using Tangrowth as a physical wall, because people are so hyped about unresisted Normal STAB, that I rarely face something with Earthquake. This might change eventually, but so far it's been one of my most useful Pokémon.

Which brings me to my next point: I don't see how Staraptor and Swellow can be considered any good. What physical wall are you hoping to take down with them exactly? Flying is a poor offensive type, since it isn't SE against anything remotely useful and it's resisted by both Grass and Bug. Defensely, Flying gives you immunity to most hazards, but that's it: you have to pay with a weakness to Bug, Grass, and Ground for that. Weakness to Grass is especially bad, because if you don't kill, the opponent is just going to recover the damage you dealt with Giga Drain/Horn Leech.
Right here I see you making a common mistake: equating sweeping and wallbreaking. Sweepers can be walled. If they couldn't, there would be no such thing as defensive play. You don't use a Scarf Staraptor because it can break walls. You use it because once you have removed the opponents Avalugg, it sweeps the rest of your opponents team. Being unable to beat one common Pokemon does not a useless Pokemon make.

The reason I say Stall is not viable is because there are only 3 very good walls in the metagame, Blissey, Chansey, and Avalugg. Anything else risks getting two shot by the best offensive threats, even on their bulky side. The fact that there are only 3 though is not why it is not viable. Its because of who they are. Sure, they only have one weakness each, and have many good moves for walls. However, neither can stand up to competent mixed wall breakers because their off defensive sides are pathetic, and they lack the resists to at least take some of those hits decently. Almost anything with access to Ice Beam can 2HKO Avalugg, even with no investment. Mixed attacking straight up invalidates this core to such an extent that no good player should ever have significant trouble with it. Additionally a few (very good) Pokemon, such as CB Mamoswine, can just break through both of them thanks to hitting the typical wall on that side STAB SE. With so few viable walls, the lack of perfect coverage means little, since it is almost guaranteed to only be facing those few. And we can't forget a few other great Pokemon like Specs Gothitelle, who can trap and kill Avalugg as well as trap and completely invalidate Chansey/Blissey's existence with Trick.

Yes, as you said, lack of resists does not stop some walls in standard OU, but that is because teams have to prepare for many possible walls. Team's can't just carry a Pokemon for a purpose like that, because it can leave them underprepared elsewhere. Here, every single competent team should have a way to beat them since they are the only viable walls, period. To say "Physical attackers don't work very well in this metagame, unless you have a plan to deal with Avalugg" is like saying "Offense only works if you choose Pokemon with high attacking stats". Its obvious. Yeah, its important to do, but if you are not doing it you are simply not good at this metagame.

Also, for what its worth, the ubiquity of Avalugg and lack of immunities pretty much makes hazards a non-factor in this metagame. Spinning is far too easy, which makes stall even worse off. All they really have for them is toxic, which is very easy to play around.

Basically, my point is, individually, defensive Pokemon in this metagame can be very good, but the only quality defensive Pokemon have major flaws. These don't stop them from working well individually, but offensive teams can very easily take advantage of these flaws. They may even work well together, but the way the metagame plays, such pokemon can only really survive as a back core to an offensive team, as without huge offensive pressure of your own, the walls are far too easily overwhelmed.
 
Right here I see you making a common mistake: equating sweeping and wallbreaking. Sweepers can be walled. If they couldn't, there would be no such thing as defensive play. You don't use a Scarf Staraptor because it can break walls. You use it because once you have removed the opponents Avalugg, it sweeps the rest of your opponents team. Being unable to beat one common Pokemon does not a useless Pokemon make.

The reason I say Stall is not viable is because there are only 3 very good walls in the metagame, Blissey, Chansey, and Avalugg. Anything else risks getting two shot by the best offensive threats, even on their bulky side. The fact that there are only 3 though is not why it is not viable. Its because of who they are. Sure, they only have one weakness each, and have many good moves for walls. However, neither can stand up to competent mixed wall breakers because their off defensive sides are pathetic, and they lack the resists to at least take some of those hits decently. Almost anything with access to Ice Beam can 2HKO Avalugg, even with no investment. Mixed attacking straight up invalidates this core to such an extent that no good player should ever have significant trouble with it. Additionally a few (very good) Pokemon, such as CB Mamoswine, can just break through both of them thanks to hitting the typical wall on that side STAB SE. With so few viable walls, the lack of perfect coverage means little, since it is almost guaranteed to only be facing those few. And we can't forget a few other great Pokemon like Specs Gothitelle, who can trap and kill Avalugg as well as trap and completely invalidate Chansey/Blissey's existence with Trick.

Yes, as you said, lack of resists does not stop some walls in standard OU, but that is because teams have to prepare for many possible walls. Team's can't just carry a Pokemon for a purpose like that, because it can leave them underprepared elsewhere. Here, every single competent team should have a way to beat them since they are the only viable walls, period. To say "Physical attackers don't work very well in this metagame, unless you have a plan to deal with Avalugg" is like saying "Offense only works if you choose Pokemon with high attacking stats". Its obvious. Yeah, its important to do, but if you are not doing it you are simply not good at this metagame.

Also, for what its worth, the ubiquity of Avalugg and lack of immunities pretty much makes hazards a non-factor in this metagame. Spinning is far too easy, which makes stall even worse off. All they really have for them is toxic, which is very easy to play around.

Basically, my point is, individually, defensive Pokemon in this metagame can be very good, but the only quality defensive Pokemon have major flaws. These don't stop them from working well individually, but offensive teams can very easily take advantage of these flaws. They may even work well together, but the way the metagame plays, such pokemon can only really survive as a back core to an offensive team, as without huge offensive pressure of your own, the walls are far too easily overwhelmed.
You're acting as if if an attacker can break Avalugg/Chansey, it can sweep any stall team. This is what the remaining four slots are for. To deal better with the threats that trouble this core. Sure, they're not as good as the golden core, but these pokes are designed to compliment them. Quagsire, defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Foul Play Yveltal, Defensive Rotom-M, Gogoat, Cradily, Slowking, Mienshao, Tangrowth, Zygarde, Mega Banette with prank Dbond, Mega Gengar to trap and kills threats, the list goes on and on. Slapping on Mamoswine onto your team can help with Chanslugg, yes, but do you really think the other player hasn't sat down for a second and thought "Wow, I'm really weak to this certain poke" and tried to think of ways to deal with it? It is not possible to handle every threat out there, that much I can agree with. But chances are the stall team will have most of its bases covered.

Trapping isn't really an issue either, as any stall player worth his money will have shed shell on his Avalugg and won't mind the loss of their blob that much since the meta is so physically biased.

EDIT: Unresisted normal STAB is also only dangerous to stall if it's used by Diggersby, the poke that I would consider stall's #1 enemy.
 
Last edited:

Garchompi

Banned deucer.
Kyurem, and Kyu-B are definitely going to become a top threat, both defensively and offensively, I can see a defensive Roost set being used to great effect as a mixed wall with Toxic, Roost and offensive coverage.
Kyurem-B is pretty much the only physical attacker that can reliably beat Avalugg thanks to its STAB Ice Beam backed up by Teravolt which ignores Sturdy. Unfortunately it's weak to Grass, a common and powerful offensive type. Nothing that Sap Sipper team mates can't fix, though.
 
Right here I see you making a common mistake: equating sweeping and wallbreaking. Sweepers can be walled. If they couldn't, there would be no such thing as defensive play. You don't use a Scarf Staraptor because it can break walls. You use it because once you have removed the opponents Avalugg, it sweeps the rest of your opponents team. Being unable to beat one common Pokemon does not a useless Pokemon make.
Apparently I failed to understand the point you were trying to make. If you're telling me that sweepers need wallbreakers in order to sweep in this metagame, fine. But then I don't understand what is different compared to standard play. You certainly aren't proving that the ability to break walls is "not rare or noteworthy."

The reason I say Stall is not viable is because there are only 3 very good walls in the metagame, Blissey, Chansey, and Avalugg.
Now that is a bit of an overstatement. Of course, those are the three best walls in terms of pure bulkiness in the game, but they are hardly the only ones.
Snorlax (160 / 65 / 110), for example, is a much better special wall than either Blissey or Chansey IMHO, because it doesn't just sit there and take hits, it threatens back as well.
Mandibuzz (110 / 105 / 95) and Gogoat (123 / 62 / 81) cover each other weaknesses very nicely. (pardon, they don't, I made confusion with the inversed type chart :-P)
Zygarde trades a 4x weakness to Ice with a 4x weakness to Electric, which is great considering everyone carries Ice Beam in standard, no one uses Thunderbolt in Inverse.
Rotom-A is quite bulky and has Will-O-Wisp. You can pick the weaknesses that suit your team better.
Cresselia (120 / 120 / 120) is going to be released soon and Psychic has improved a lot defensively. I don't think she has much reason to fear Fighting- or Psychic-types switching into her.
 
Last edited:

Garchompi

Banned deucer.
There's nothing stopping use of restalk snorlax with curse in this metagame. Imagine crocune with way better physical bulk and unresisted coverage... Also only weak to ghost and resisting fighting. Also better attack and overall bulk.
This. Curselax is horribly broken. Avalugg with Roar is the only way to stop it from 6-0'ing you midgame... and that's why it's best left as the last pokemon, where Avalugg won't be able to stop it since a +6 Return will do over 60% damage with uninvested attack unless you feel like running Iron Defense/Curse on Avalugg and turn the match into a brutal stallwar.
Taunt can temporarily prevent it from setting up, but it can still spam STAB Return coming from 110 base attack.
In a last pokemon scenario the only way to stop it is resorting to gimmicks like Topsy-Turvy and stuff like that, which most teams will not be carrying. I've seen players attempting to use Destiny Bond but it's incredibly obvious and a decent player would never fall for that.
It's so bulky it can even comfortably take Gengar's Specs Shadow Ball, only to destroy it afterwards with a SE Return.
It's essentially GSC's CurseLax on steroids since Return is the only damaging move it needs to cover the entire metagame.
 
Last edited:

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
I like CB selfdestruct lax to beat curselax. At +1 def you still ohko and naturally, you outspeed.
 
This. Curselax is horribly broken. Avalugg with Roar is the only way to stop it from 6-0'ing you midgame... and that's why it's best left as the last pokemon, where Avalugg won't be able to stop it since a +6 Return will do over 60% damage with uninvested attack unless you feel like running Iron Defense/Curse on Avalugg and turn the match into a brutal stallwar.
Taunt can temporarily prevent it from setting up, but it can still spam STAB Return coming from 110 base attack.
In a last pokemon scenario the only way to stop it is resorting to gimmicks like Topsy-Turvy and stuff like that, which most teams will not be carrying. I've seen players attempting to use Destiny Bond but it's incredibly obvious and a decent player would never fall for that.
It's so bulky it can even comfortably take Gengar's Specs Shadow Ball, only to destroy it afterwards with a SE Return.
It's essentially GSC's CurseLax on steroids since Return is the only damaging move it needs to cover the entire metagame.
It's honestly not that broken, moves such as Leech Seed, Foul Play, Knock Off, and Whirlwind really make it not that hard to counter, i.e like BH, all good teams need a solid backbone, you can't just go full offense without a good defensive structure and expect a consistent win rate.
 

Garchompi

Banned deucer.
Everything with such moves are just setup fodder for CurseLax in IB. It's not even that reliant on Leftovers since it has Rest. And as I mentioned phazing is not a reliable way to beat it since CurseLax will most likely saved for when there are no other pokemon left.
To give you an idea of how bulky it is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 292-344 (55.7 - 65.6%)

Replace Focus Blast with STAB Shadow Ball and the damage is the same in inverse battles. That's just about the strongest attack Snorlax will have to face in a realistic scenario (actually it's not even that realistic since Gengar shouldn't be running Specs and a Modest nature).

To add salt to the injury Snorlax has Thick Fat, giving it resistances to fire and most importantly ice, which is ironically a good offensive type in inverse battles since it's the only type SE against ice types.

Keep in mind we're still talking about a specific set. Snorlax can potentially run CB, Assault Vest and a multitude of other sets to get around potential checks.
 
Snorlax actually needs Leftovers in the long run, without it, its easily killed by Yveltal's Foul Play and can be worn down with hazard phazing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top