The MMA/Boxing/Fighting Sports Thread

[mirza]

No but steroid use is very common in competitive sports. Getting caught means just that. You were caught. It's not like steroids are some magical drug that infuse dozens of years of martial arts training, lighting quick reflexes and automatically make your muscles grow like the Hulk.

Do you respect Marquardt, Royce Gracie, Sonnen, etc. any less because they use roids?

 

[Shinryu]

Eh, I just remember the smaller Overeem from Pride, was only joking about the steroids reference. Didn't mean to turn this into a whole other controversy about steroids chat.

 

[Vineon]

Do you respect Marquardt, Royce Gracie, Sonnen, etc. any less because they use roids?

Yes.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I absolutely respect Sonnen less because he used steroids, ESPECIALLY because of his prefight demeanor. I think he probably felt he'd mouthed off to the point that he had to do anything to win, and he knew that being the bigger, stronger fighter at all costs was the way to do it. The fact that he roided up and still lost just makes it worse for him, but if he had won I'd hope that they'd have taken the best from him as the first real show of "we don't put up with this shit in the ufc".

 

[Trax]

I love how all the UFCs promotional stuff for Brock vs Cain is entirely based about Cain being Mexican when his parents are illegals and he was born in America.

The hateful part of me wants Brock to win and then be a jerk about it.

 

[Starbuck]

I also like how getting beat to the threshold of death then subbing a gassed Carwin with a half-ass arm triangle apparently made Brock the baddest man on the planet.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Let's look at it this way.

Carwin is absolutely THE HARDEST punch in MMA, I'd say, and he couldn't put Lesnar down. Lesnar beat Couture, an excellent all-around fighter; Mir, a great wrestler and decently heavy hitter; and then Carwin, who was able to knock out absolutely everyone *except* Brock Lesnar, who survived the first round and then dominated in the second.

Honestly, I see Lesnar winning this fairly easily. If Carwin couldn't finish Lesnar with strikes, there's no way Cain is going to, and when it comes to wrestling skills, Lesnar has a big size and power advantage for Velasquez to have to try and circumvent.

Anything can happen, of course, but I see this being primarily Lesnar's fight.

 

[Shinryu]

Agreeing with Seven Deadly Sins, like I've been saying since it was announced, Lesnar is simply big enough to the point where he can bully Velazquez around. Sure his striking is subpar, but he makes up for it with some pretty damn good power behind them, and he's large enough to likely dominate Cain on the ground. The only thing I can really see Cain doing is using his better speed to land quick strikes onto Lesnar and hope the judges see a decision for him, because realistically, he won't be able to keep Brock on the ground to really do anything I think.

 

[Trax]

Carwin is absolutely THE HARDEST punch in MMA, I'd say, and he couldn't put Lesnar down. Lesnar beat Couture, an excellent all-around fighter; Mir, a great wrestler and decently heavy hitter; and then Carwin, who was able to knock out absolutely everyone *except* Brock Lesnar, who survived the first round and then dominated in the second.

Honestly, I see Lesnar winning this fairly easily. If Carwin couldn't finish Lesnar with strikes, there's no way Cain is going to, and when it comes to wrestling skills, Lesnar has a big size and power advantage for Velasquez to have to try and circumvent.

Who has Carwin knocked out to give him that honor exactly?

Mir? not exactly known for taking punishment well.
Gonzaga? again this guy isn't known for taking shots well.

The other guys he's beaten have been finished as quickly if not quicker by the likes of Tony Sylvester and Soa Palalei.

I'd put Andrei Arlovski, Alistair Overeem or Junior Dos Santos down as the hardest hitter in MMA before I put down Carwin - those guys have some impressive KOs on their records (though Overeems are in Kickboxing - Edwards and Teixeira).



Mir is hardly a great wrestler or a heavy hitter - his wrestling is pretty bad (to the point that he can't even take down a so-far-past-it-it's-not-funny Cro Cop) and he's never shown evidence of actual KO power.



Couture is sad to watch now, he's certainly not a top tier fighter since his return.



Can really look at this stuff from any direction; positive or negative.. reality is probably half way between what we've just posted.

 

[Venom]

I love how all the UFCs promotional stuff for Brock vs Cain is entirely based about Cain being Mexican when his parents are illegals and he was born in America.

The hateful part of me wants Brock to win and then be a jerk about it.

Do you have a problem with it lol?

You don't understand how hard it was for our parents to get to this country. It is even harder to endure how hard it is for us to to go from living in a one room apartment to a good, stable house, shit maybe even a 2 story house. Nothing is set for us on the table, we have to work for it. It's a pride thing, its probably something people who are born and have everything set on the table as they go will never understand.

As for Velasquez vs Lesnar, let's not forget the Brock Lesnar vs Randy Couture fight. Lesnar was breathing heavy from just clinching with with Couture for 2 rounds, so I'm sure Velasquez's cardio is going to play a big-role in this fight, believe that. Velasquez's also has really really good wrestling, and I can see Velasquez taking down Lesnar easily. Ground-and-Pound is the way I see this fight ending. Only disadvantage I see is the "size matters in mma" argument, which Velasquez has been able to diminish. If Cain Velasquez can handle a 6'5 Ben Rothwell and a 6'3 Chieck Kongo, I don't see why he can't handle Lesnar. Bigger isn't always better.

As for the "Lesnar has a big size and power advantage for Velasquez" bullshit, let's just remember how Lesnar was able to outwrestle 220-pound Couture, another really good wrestler, same caliber wrestler or even better than Velasquez, and gassed himself just trying not to get knocked down. Just putting it out there.

 

[Shinryu]

While Couture is not a "top" fighter anymore, I'd still put my money on him to beat a good portion of all LHWs (and maybe even some HWs still) out there. He's still in pretty damn good condition and trains, so at the very least you can't say he doesn't come in prepared to tussle. This is unlike someone like Liddell, who while younger, has significantly more damage done in comparison (aka, his chin can't take a hit anymore) as well as his inability (or lack of desire) to change from a boxer back into the kickboxer he was that stuffed takedowns and landed highlight reel KOs.

 

[mirza]

People age. It's not a difficult concept to understand lol.

You don't understand how hard it was for our parents to get to this country. It is even harder to endure how hard it is for us to to go from living in a one room apartment to a good, stable house, shit maybe even a 2 story house. Nothing is set for us on the table, we have to work for it. It's a pride thing, its probably something people who are born and have everything set on the table as they go will never understand.

Ok this is completely off-topic, if there is one in this thread, but I wanted to respond. First off no one has it easy. Everyone has to work for their shit. It's not like everyone wins scratch off's and then all of their future generations are set. Don't assume that anyone is born with what they have today, after all the vast majority of millionaires in the US are self-made. How do you know that Trax or anyone else here was born with money in their pockets?

As for Velasquez vs Lesnar, let's not forget the Brock Lesnar vs Randy Couture fight. Lesnar was breathing heavy from just clinching with with Couture for 2 rounds, so I'm sure Velasquez's cardio is going to play a big-role in this fight, believe that. Velasquez's also has really really good wrestling, and I can see Velasquez taking down Lesnar easily. Ground-and-Pound is the way I see this fight ending. Only disadvantage I see is the "size matters in mma" argument, which Velasquez has been able to diminish. If Cain Velasquez can handle a 6'5 Ben Rothwell and a 6'3 Chieck Kongo, I don't see why he can't handle Lesnar. Bigger isn't always better.

-You've got a great point on Cain's cardio but Lesnar's already proven that he has incredible cardio for a person of his size. He wrestled with Carwin for a round and then choked him out when he ran out of gas. I thought we already established that Lesnar's a genetic freak of nature.

-I don't know about Velasquez having "really really" good wrestling. His wrestling wasn't all that impressive vs Kongo and he was lucky not to be KOed a few times in that fight to be fair.

-How can Cain possibly take down Lesnar with ease? In fact, how can any human being take Lesnar down with ease?? There isn't one that could ragdoll Lesnar and being the explosive animal that he is, he'll get back up once he's taken down.

-Rothwell and Kongo aren't comparable to Lesnar. Lesnar's a 270lb wrestler. Not a fatass, nor a striker. The wrestler's biggest weakness is a larger wrestler.

As for the "Lesnar has a big size and power advantage for Velasquez" bullshit, let's just remember how Lesnar was able to outwrestle 220-pound Couture, another really good wrestler, same caliber wrestler or even better than Velasquez, and gassed himself just trying not to get knocked down. Just putting it out there.

It's not bullshit, just look at the two men. One is noticeably larger than the other. There's no ego bruising in saying one man is physically stronger than the other, hell that's usually pretty obvious. And to be fair Lesnar was never in any danger vs Couture whether he looked impressive or not.


The only way I could see Cain winning this fight would be to rock Lesnar and finish on the ground, or do what Evans did to Rampage basically. Only difference is that unlike Rampage, Lesnar will be more than happy to put Cain on his back and GnP for 5 rounds. I've got Lesnar via UD.

 

[Vineon]

This thread reinforced my desire for Mexican Cain to win.

 

[Venom]

People age. It's not a difficult concept to understand lol.



Ok this is completely off-topic, if there is one in this thread, but I wanted to respond. First off no one has it easy. Everyone has to work for their shit. It's not like everyone wins scratch off's and then all of their future generations are set. Don't assume that anyone is born with what they have today, after all the vast majority of millionaires in the US are self-made. How do you know that Trax or anyone else here was born with money in their pockets?

-You've got a great point on Cain's cardio but Lesnar's already proven that he has incredible cardio for a person of his size. He wrestled with Carwin for a round and then choked him out when he ran out of gas. I thought we already established that Lesnar's a genetic freak of nature.

-I don't know about Velasquez having "really really" good wrestling. His wrestling wasn't all that impressive vs Kongo and he was lucky not to be KOed a few times in that fight to be fair.

-How can Cain possibly take down Lesnar with ease? In fact, how can any human being take Lesnar down with ease?? There isn't one that could ragdoll Lesnar and being the explosive animal that he is, he'll get back up once he's taken down.

-Rothwell and Kongo aren't comparable to Lesnar. Lesnar's a 270lb wrestler. Not a fatass, nor a striker. The wrestler's biggest weakness is a larger wrestler.



It's not bullshit, just look at the two men. One is noticeably larger than the other. There's no ego bruising in saying one man is physically stronger than the other, hell that's usually pretty obvious. And to be fair Lesnar was never in any danger vs Couture whether he looked impressive or not.


The only way I could see Cain winning this fight would be to rock Lesnar and finish on the ground, or do what Evans did to Rampage basically. Only difference is that unlike Rampage, Lesnar will be more than happy to put Cain on his back and GnP for 5 rounds. I've got Lesnar via UD.

Do you really think a man that picks up cabbage will have the money in their pockets is even able to pay for a simple 100$ MMA class for their kid? Don't think so, my parents don't, so I'm sure I speak for people like Cain Velasquez as well. And I'm sure a lot of MMA fighters are where they are now because they had economical support. I never said everybody has it easy, but you got to understand that our people come here with absolutely NOTHING other than the clothes on their backs, so understand that when one of us has made it as far as Cain Velasquez has, its pride that we take in that. Like he said himself, he didn't have anybody that looked like him doing what he wanted to be, so there he is now, being somebody we can look up to.

-You've got a great point on Cain's cardio but Lesnar's already proven that he has incredible cardio for a person of his size. He wrestled with Carwin for a round and then choked him out when he ran out of gas. I thought we already established that Lesnar's a genetic freak of nature.

I think you're overrating his cardio. Let's look at his last 4 titles defences: how many of them have gone the distance? None, none of them have gone more than 2 rounds, and in those 2 rounds he gets gassed pretty quickly, so I wouldn't say "incredible cardio".

-I don't know about Velasquez having "really really" good wrestling. His wrestling wasn't all that impressive vs Kongo and he was lucky not to be KOed a few times in that fight to be fair.

Dunno where have you been in the last UFCs lol. If Velasquez took a hit from the "heaviest hitter in the division" and came back with a complete wrestling domination...I don't understand how that was "luck". If it says anything about Velasquez, is that Velasquez can actually take a hit.

-Rothwell and Kongo aren't comparable to Lesnar. Lesnar's a 270lb wrestler. Not a fatass, nor a striker. The wrestler's biggest weakness is a larger wrestler

It's not bullshit, just look at the two men. One is noticeably larger than the other. There's no ego bruising in saying one man is physically stronger than the other, hell that's usually pretty obvious. And to be fair Lesnar was never in any danger vs Couture whether he looked impressive or not.


The only way I could see Cain winning this fight would be to rock Lesnar and finish on the ground, or do what Evans did to Rampage basically. Only difference is that unlike Rampage, Lesnar will be more than happy to put Cain on his back and GnP for 5 rounds. I've got Lesnar via UD.

For the first round in the Lesnar vs Couture fight Lesnar had trouble getting out of the clinch, not in the clinch. Let's face it, Couture is smaller, a good wrestler, but washed up. If he had problems with Couture, what makes you think he can "outwrestle" Velasquez?

I'm not a Brock hater or anything, I actually rooted for him in his last fights, I like his attitude as a champion. I actually like him as a champion. But Velasquez is no fatass or a bum. This guy has a lot of talent, and shouldn't be underrated just because of his size. You can't bring out the "GnP" argument out either, according to you, like Velasquez, Brock Lesnar GnP'd a good wrestler, and if you mean that Frank Mir fight, then you're completely wrong, but Frank Mir is in no way or form a decent wrestler.

If Cain Velasquez plays it smart, we will see the most gassed Brock Lesnar we have ever seen. Cain Velasquez by UD.

 

[Shinryu]

The problem is, you have to remember when Lesnar fought Couture, he had a grand total of what...2 or 3 fights under his belt? Fake wrestling years aside, he was at that point still a newbie to MMA (and he's still learning it), and yes while Couture was past his prime, he's only had 10+ years of experience at that point. So honestly it's not too surprising that Couture might have gotten the better of some of the exchanges in R1 in the clinch, dirty boxing only happens to be one of his specialties. Same way Mir trapped Lesnar in a heel lock submission for his only loss to date; it was more of a lack of experience than anything, as Lesnar was still winning against Mir up to that point.

 

[mirza]

^^^exactly

Venom don't think I'm knocking Cain, he's a huge threat in the UFC.. I just don't see him getting by Lesnar. Unless he clings on to Lesnar like a tick he's not going to gas the big man.

And since when is getting worked by Couture in the clinch anything to be ashamed of?


Also my family came to this country with nothing but the clothes off our backs. We came here as war refugees. No reason to say you can't accomplish anything. Besides Mexicans absolutely dominate smaller weight classes in boxing it's not like you've got nobody famous to look up to lol.

 

[Starbuck]

Saying Cain can overcome his size disadvantage because of how he handled Kongo and Big Ben doesn't convince me. They're both strikers, and although they are taller than Cain, Brock is BIG. 6'3'' is about average height for HWs, Brock is just BIG. His physique doesn't really look human. Humans have necks. I expect the first three rounds to be a near stalemate of wrestling, but Brock is able to be effective due to his size and strength. Cain could take the fourth/fifth rounds with his cardio, but unless he can finish Brock, I'd say it goes to the judges with a unanimous 48-47 in favor of Brock. Now, with a prediction that specific, something crazy is more likely to happen.

Moving on, Trax, you forgot Tank. Lol.

And regarding this whole ethnic debate, I'm curious why I'm even commenting on it. Anyway, it's not like you can only look up to people the same race as you. If you want to be something be it. What the hell does it matter if someone your race has done it before? And yeah, Mexicans do demolish smaller boxing classes, and if you really must look up to someone Mexican, who better than Danny Trejo?

 

[Shinryu]

^ if the above scenario happened, you can already see Dana canceling the bout with Dos Santos in favor of a Lesnar/Cain rematch lol.

That aside, the Rothwell comparison is a joke; Rothwell looked nothing more than an old man being hammered on for a little over 3 minutes of fighting. And though I haven't seen Cain/Kongo, it keeps coming up that Kongo wasn't doing super bad and even clipped him somewhere in the fight, so eh.

 

[Vineon]

And regarding this whole ethnic debate, I'm curious why I'm even commenting on it. Anyway, it's not like you can only look up to people the same race as you. If you want to be something be it. What the hell does it matter if someone your race has done it before? And yeah, Mexicans do demolish smaller boxing classes, and if you really must look up to someone Mexican, who better than Danny Trejo?

It is human nature to identify with people that most ressemble you and take pride in their successes and accomplishements. In the UFC, I root heavy for GSP and Pat Côté who come from the same neighbourhood I do, growing up sharing a similar cultural print. It hardly entails I do not 'look up' to other fighters. Nobody implied you could "only look up to people the same race as you", as you suggested.

This might however be a sentiment stronger in minorities, who will naturally see their success stories as underdogs stories; there's certainly no lacking of white americans in the UFC, for instance.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Then there's British fighters, who I'm convinced the Brits like only because nobody else does.

 

[Trax]

Moving on, Trax, you forgot Tank. Lol.

Tank is an interesting one, you'd be stupid to say he didn't have KO Power (fucks sake, he knocked out Cabbage), but he only really had it in one particular strike (his overhand right) - guys like Arlovski, Overeem and Dos Santos can score KOs with more than one strike.


People always forget when talking about Couture that he may be slow as fuck now, but he DOES have old man strength in spades (same as Henderson and Hughes do).

Vitor Belfort was able to bench press slightly under 500 pounds when he was about 19 (or something similarly obscene, I can't remember the exact figures), and Couture was still bullying him around like he was a little kid - Randy + Clinch = frightening strength that is pretty much unmatched in MMA even by heavyweights.

 

[mirza]

^^Agreed Couture's the man. He doesn't do all that much but what he does do, he's the best at it.

Also you guys have been kinda quiet lately! Even tho we tend to disagree a lot and throw jabs whenever possible, I do like reading your opinions just because they're not littered with garbage like most forums and it's a small group so we all have our tendencies. Post more. :)

UFC 120 is a few days away and nobody's saying much about it lol. To be fair I don't think Bisping/Akiyama is a main event match but whatever. I've got Bisping winning by UD.

What about Strikeforce? Bigfoots fighting Valentijn Overeem, any opinions on the Diaz/Noons event?

K-1 predictions?

cmon fellas

 

[Starbuck]

UFC 120 is kinda sitting in the shadow of UFC 121. Isn't Spike getting all of UFC 120 as opposed to the prelims that Spike normally gets? And I can't remember the last time that two UFC events were only a week apart. Regardless, I don't know Akiyama very well and the only reason I like Bisping is for getting knocked out so epicly. I'm not familiar with most of the other fighters, although I would expect a bit of blood in Kongo vs. Browne.

And if that's accurate, WOW @ Belfort benching ~500 at 19. I've read that Brock benches 475. Hell, I've heard that Arnold benched 540 in his prime.

 

[mirza]

To be fair bench press isn't very good for measuring overall strength, not to mention strength has many different definitions and is viewed differently by lots of people. How well does lifting a shit load of dead weight with your chest and triceps translate into the cage? How functional is that strength? Does that much muscle growth hurt your flexibility? I think wrestling gives fighters the most functional strength for MMA and that's exactly where Couture shines.

Bench press is pretty overrated in general imo. My BJJ trainer said it best when he said lifting dead weight is not even comparable to trying to move weight that's alive, kicking, and is trying to kick your ass. I agree. :)

Nonetheless, a 500 lb bench for any person is very impressive, let alone a 19 year old 100KGish kid.

 

[Trax]

What about Strikeforce? Bigfoots fighting Valentijn Overeem, any opinions on the Diaz/Noons event?

K-1 predictions?

Bigfoot vs Valentijn is obviously to setup Bigfoot vs Alistair, Fedor vs Werdum and if I'm any judge Barnett vs Kharitonov.

As for K-1, Schilt all the way - Aerts is too old to stop him now and much as I like Alistair I don't think he can get inside that reach enough to do damage.


P.s. Jeff Monson bench pressed Roy Nelson off him from Side Control, that's the real use of a bench press :D

Edit: it is pretty well documented that Belfort was juicing back in the day.