The Next 4th Gen Tier Lists... And Suspects

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hmm, not 100% sure where to put this... I may be a little early to be concerned about this kind of stuff, but might as well discuss it.

Since as Heart Gold/Soul Silver info is flooding in. There may be a number of pokémon shifted around the tiers and that could pose a problem for the statistics of this quarter and thus result in an "inaccurate" tier list that would not be completely reflective of HG/SS's early metagame.

I have a couple ideas...:

1. We could end this current period when HG/SS gets added to Shoddy (or perhaps some arbitrary time period like Sept. 15, 20, 25, etc.) and we could have a seperate list figured out for HG/SS after October ends.
2. We could end this period early, but instead of figuring out the post HG/SS tier list after October we could figure it out after the end of the year. This would let the various metagames settle down and give us a better idea to how the metagame will pan out (and it would be less work than my first idea).

Since people rely on Smogon for the most accurate and up-to-date information on stuff like this it might be better to opt for option no. 1. However, option 2 kind of helps get a better look at how things will shape out (I mean Scizor wasn't #1 in OU usage for some months post Platinum's release).

Now another concern of mine is Suspects... (I'm looking at you Nasty Plot Miss Mage)

Since we kinda just got done with Stage 3 testing when (if needed) are we going to need to do a lot of (re)testing? I know I'm probably asking wayyyyyyyy too early, but I know some people may be looking to try to get something nominated as a Suspect when the metagame isn't even stableish and that could mean more work on our part that might not even be needed.

Just shooting some speculations and ideas out there. Again, I apologize if its a little too early to bring up, but I think its at least something to keep in mind.

What do you guys think?

 

[diinbong]

Statistics are statistics. I don't think there's really a need to not apply the statistics. You say applying the statistics will make the tier lists not completely reflective of the early HGSS metagame, while it's really the exact opposite. That's exactly what they'll represent. You say people rely on Smogon for the most accurate and up-to-date info on tiers yet you want to wait until everything "pan's out" to apply tiering changes? Maybe I don't understand the suggestions completely. I don't remember doing this for Platinum, so I don't know why we would now. I doubt the new moves will make an extremely significant difference anyway.

I think it's way too early to bring up the second point. When and if we feel like it's nessecary I'm sure we will.

 

[X-Act]

I have to say that I agree with the original poster's concern. To be honest, I did the same thing when Platinum was released. If I recall correctly, at that time I issued the tier list in the usual month, and then I issued it again one month later, having accumulated one more month of post-Platinum stats. The problem was alleviated at that time because there wasn't an official UU tier, however.

I think this time this issue is even more important because of UU. We need a stable metagame before we figure out UU. Because of this, having a new tier list in September is not ideal. The best course of action would actually be to stop official UU play until the OU metagame stabilizes, but I'm sure that UU people would be very adverse to this idea.

We need to wait until at least the start of November to make a tier list. Since the next tier list would then be in January, this might be too little time for UU to nominate suspects, and vote, however.

This is just my opinion, and, of course, you're free to oppose it.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I don't think this is all too big of a deal. This topic is kind of blowing it out of proportion. I'm pretty sure we can approach all of this with a "business as usual" attitude and be fine.

Maybe if there were any big changes then we could be concerned. But as of right now I see nothing bigger than Nasty Plot Mismagius (which may not even be a big deal who knows). I could see reacting this way if this was bringing us the same level of changes that Platinum brought us. But quite honestly there's nothing to make me think we should change our routine.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I apologize if I made it sound like its a really big deal, but the point is we don't know how things will exactly pan out. I think it'd be nice to at least have some policies for when new games come out. You know how Platinum came out shortly after we kicked Garchomp to Ubers and some feel that perhaps we were a little too hasty to do so.

It'd be nice to be a bit more prepared for anything to make sure things go over as smoothly as possible. Like X-Act said with the establishment of the UU tier policies and such some 'mons may get thrown around a bit especially around the first month or so of HG/SS play. It wouldn't be good if we were to test some things and turn out that they didn't need to be tested at all.

As far as making a new list Novemberish, I think that would be a fair amount of time to let things settle down. Two months doesn't seem too long to determine a January list, but don't forget many people will have vacations during December. That should provide more play for December and statistics, so in the end I think we'll be fine.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

If we don't know how things will pan out, then why make a fuss about it?

HGSS pretty much lines up exactly with the new tier list and the new OU list, and I think it's pretty silly to just delay things and throw everything off for what few changes there are to the metagame. The new OU list comes out in 15 days (or so), and that's just about when we'll actually be able to test the new stuff. It works out perfectly, which just makes this big hullabaloo counter-productive.

 

[lilyhollow]

Since we kinda just got done with Stage 3 testing when (if needed) are we going to need to do a lot of (re)testing? I know I'm probably asking wayyyyyyyy too early, but I know some people may be looking to try to get something nominated as a Suspect when the metagame isn't even stableish and that could mean more work on our part that might not even be needed.

Basically I understand your sentiments (though I'm not exactly sure what sort of scenario you have in mind, be it huge community outcry for a Ho-oh/Salamence test, or "oops we probably should have voted Manaphy Uber huh" or otherwise)... what I don't understand is why we'd ever have to be "preemptive" about any of this. What "work" are we trying to avoid? I don't really see what you're getting at.

 

[Tangerine]

Since as Heart Gold/Soul Silver info is flooding in. There may be a number of pokémon shifted around the tiers and that could pose a problem for the statistics of this quarter and thus result in an "inaccurate" tier list that would not be completely reflective of HG/SS's early metagame.

Theoretically, sure. However, think about it practically - are the move tutors that were added in HG/SS really going to change anything in OU?

I apologize if I made it sound like its a really big deal, but the point is we don't know how things will exactly pan out. I think it'd be nice to at least have some policies for when new games come out. You know how Platinum came out shortly after we kicked Garchomp to Ubers and some feel that perhaps we were a little too hasty to do so.

consider platinum's move tutors/changes to HGSS's, and you'll see the difference - I don't think you can use HGSS as an excuse for anything really. All in all - I agree with jabba - I rather that we wait for EVIDENCE before we jump into doing anything.

 

[Aeolus]

We'll wait and see. Once everything has been added, we'll have a much better idea of how to approach things. I imagine a similar process to the one we've used with minor changes will likely be appropriate. However, any designation of suspects, etc. will wait until such a time as we are comfortable and confident with going forward.