Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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K, here's a list of pokemon I think should go down to D-Tier
Crobat -- lol why the hell would you even use this I have no idea
Crustle -- It's a nice hazards lead until you reailze it can't self spin-block like Skarm and Forry and has nothing over either of them
Donphan -- Disagree here. Being one of the four OU spinners alone makes it C-rank. It has some utility on sun teams. I have used Donphan on one or two teams in a way I would never use Crustle.
Durant -- Not fast enough to sweep, Hustle is terrible. Believe me I've tried a hundred different ways to use this guy, Escaviler is much better if you're desperate to use a RU bug-type
Nidoqueen --Actually a good Terrakion check/SR user if you are already using Incarnate Landorus and can't use the other one, or if you want a special attacker
Scrafty -- This guy is just outclassed a million ways to one. Move it down please
Shaymin -- Shaymin is a great bulky grass type if you're looking for something that isn't Pursuit weak. It can check Landorus all right if it goes specially defensive, only risking a 3HKO with Focus Blast after SR can Rest off damage, and can hit back with HP Ice. Also can check most water-types okay. I'd say it belongs here
Smeargle -- Meh. Can do stuff no other mon can do, but is mostly outclassed in OU. D rank seems appropriate
Snorlax -- Sucks in OU. Like awful. Move it down
Togekiss -- See above
Vaporeon -- Not rehashing this old argument but Vappy seems fine where it is to me[/HIDE]There are a few pokemon I missed, but all of these pokemon seem to fit the definition of D-Tier IMO.

I also agree that Skarmory is A+ rank. If the opponent does not have a dedicated lead or Rotom-W + Priority, Skarmory is going to get at least SR and probably a layer or two of Spikes as well. It also can self-spinblock with Brave Bird. Probably the best HO lead at the moment.
 

Thundurus-T => A Rank or A- Rank
While thundurus-t is certainly a threat, it struggles in this meta. The double dance set struggles against any who resist thunder (ferro, mamoswine, etc.) while the agility set has issues with special walls and the nasty plot set finds itself far too slow to sweep. Scarfing it isn't too good an idea as a ground switchin is huge momentum loss. It's frailty holds it back some and it fares rather poorly against offense. Even the agility set has a lot of trouble setting up. It is not a bad pokemon by any means, but it simply isn't not as top tier as originally perceived.
Whoa whoa whoa. The rest of the stuff you state I either agree with or am not experienced with enough to decide for myself, but Thundy-T is, bar none, one of the best sweepers I've used in a long, long while. For reference, the set I've been using is Shurtugal's Double Dancer set from Objection!, way back in the Deo-D era. Now, if you haven't used this specific set, imo you haven't really tried everything that Thundy-T has to offer yet. Its crazy bulky for a set up sweeper, to the point where missing out on a OHKO isn't actually that much of a problem because the defending pokemon struggles to KO you either, even if you've taken a hit before while setting up. Regardless if you've boosted with Nasty Plot or Agility, Thundurus-T packs insane power with a Modest nature, maximum power investment. and just Thunderbolt and HP Ice. Yeah, you still have hard counters in Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Mamoswine, but the number of stuff Thundy-T does break is absolutely crazy, and I really believe that Thundurus-T has what it takes to be A+ tier, despite its flaws.
 
Looking through the rankings, there are a few pokes that I find out of place.

If you argue against any of the move and I don't respond, my response would have probably been "I'm nominating it from A+ to A... not A+ to D," and I trust PK to properly judge any minor changes of this sort


Thundurus-T => A Rank or A- Rank
While thundurus-t is certainly a threat, it struggles in this meta. The double dance set struggles against any who resist thunder (ferro, mamoswine, etc.) while the agility set has issues with special walls and the nasty plot set finds itself far too slow to sweep. Scarfing it isn't too good an idea as a ground switchin is huge momentum loss. It's frailty holds it back some and it fares rather poorly against offense. Even the agility set has a lot of trouble setting up. It is not a bad pokemon by any means, but it simply isn't not as top tier as originally perceived.



Garchomp => A Rank or (tentative)A- Rank
Without dragon dance, garchomp is the "slow" dragon. With slow of course being relative to the rest of the offensive metagame, but slow nonetheless. As such, it has trouble sweeping due to the fact that so many things can come in and outspeed and ko it (keldeo, terrakion, latias, starmie, latios... pretty much everything faster than it). Not to mention it is weak to the somewhat common ice shard. However, that isn't to say garchomp isn't fearsome. Keep in mind this is a nomination for it to be moved down a single notch. With a yache berry, keldeo and the like, which the opponent may have preserved simply to keep chomp at bay, it can survive hp ice and ko in return. Scarf sets are viable, but scarf outrage is not the best thing to be locked into, and earthquake is so easily abusable. Maybe when keldeo is gone things will be different for chomp, but as is sweepers have a very difficult time when they don't meet the 108 speed threashold (and even then they do), so I feel as if it isn't a tippy-top tier threat.



Tentacruel => (tentative)A- Rank
This one I wasn't too too sure about, but after consideration on both sides I feel is proper. Tentacruel is a great spinner and a very nice wall, serving as a nice keldeo counter amongst other things. However, there are a couple of things holding it back: fitting it on a team and the top threats. First of all, tenta should be run on a rain team, otherwise it is likely outclassed. This means that between politoed and tentacruel, you already have two electric weaknesses. Add on keldeo and you are sitting at three. Tornadus (which appreciates spin support) adds another, etc. In essense, tentacruel is great at amplifying already prevelant weaknesses, which is not good for a defensive poke, while offensive ones could someone get away with it. Besides this though, the amount of pokes who can deal with it is unfortunately large. Arguably 22 pokemon just in the S and A ranks can either outspeed and 1hko tentacruel, or can wall it without fear while also being able to react in some capacity. Of course, this number decreases if tenta is behind a sub, but let's keep in mind that those 22 are just comprised of A and S rank. Changing the weather as well is extremely detrimental to tentacruel's abilities. So yeah :P Still a great pokemon, but A- seems to fit. (especially if keldeo leaves)



Gyarados => A Rank
See above posts



Dugtrio => B Rank (tentative) B- Rank
Dugtrio is a mixed bag... it's an awful pokemon with great utility. It works very well on sun teams to eliminate ttar, but it can't do the same for the equally threatening politoed. On a rain team it can do away with ttar and ninetales, but politoed doesn't exactly struggle against these two itself, plus rain teams are rather strapped for space. It's also embarrasing when your dugtrio loses to jirachi. Any form of hazard ruins sash dugtrio. It has a rather large potential to be complete deadweight against the opposing team.



Tornadus => A Rank
See above posts



Magnezone => B+ Rank
Magnezone is really the only pokemon who can eliminate defensive steel types so consistently, opening the way for MANY offensive behemoths. Besides this though, it is crazy powerful. Specs magnezone is ridiculous against anything that doesn't 1hko it (which is quite difficult to do with large hp investment and that typing). Resisting bolt beam is great. The real gem, though, is analytic magnezone. While it is unreliable (not really... da ladder), showdown mechanics make it so even without magnet pull the opponent seems to be trapped unless they try and switch out, which most people don't bother doing. Alongside this, though, you get absurd power. It 1hkos spdef jellicent with tbolt, does around 70% to spdef rachi, 1hkos Garchomp, 1hkos +2 Spdef Terrakion, etc. Analytic magnezone was central to the team that I used to make both reqs (with no lando or keldeo or ttar, might I add!), even when the opponent did realize it did not have magnet pull. B+ rank is certainly nothing too generous considering its very valuable niche and general abilities as a pokemon even without said niche. /unlike dugtrio and gothitelle



Ditto => B- Rank
Okay, ditto has a niche like no other. But who actually uses setup sweepers anymore? Especially with things like lando and the like running around where setup is unnecesary. And if you switch a ditto into a scarf keldeo, you have a scarf keldeo with less health. He's fun I suppose and he could be a great utility (in fact, he could be ANY UTILITY WOAHHHH) but he's too unreliable and such.


It's getting late and these are getting weird, I'll stop here I suppose :P
Garchomp isnt just a sweeper. He can be anything from a lead, wallbreaker, revenge killer or even a tank. The possibilities are endless, dragon+ground coverage is unmatched, bulkier than freaking swampert and enough speed and power to destroy nearly the entire metagame. It should either stay where it is or be moved up to S-Rank. The rest i mostly agree or just cant say anything about it.
 
DoubleDance Thundurus-T has no problem setting up on Ferrothorn - at +4 Thunderbolt is a solid 2HKO, and the set has enough bulk (with the bulky spread) to get those boosts consistently, often along with an Agility as well. The only true hard counters to the set are Mamoswine (as you already mentioned), Gastrodon, and Unaware Quagsire (which is never seen in OU). Thundurus-T has a good number of resistances which presents it many opportunities to set up and sweep on choice-locked resisted attacks / defensive pokemon. I agree with you that the scarf set is terrible, but that doesn't matter since other sets exist.

Also, I strongly disagree that Shaymin should be moved down to D rank. I think you're underestimating the importance of not being Pursuit weak, given how ubiquitous KeldTar teams are. Shaymin also has the niche of being more capable offensively than the other bulky Grasses thanks to Seed Flare, letting it fit onto faster teams that require a decent Water resist but don't want to lose momentum by using a more defensive 'mon. Thanks to Natural Cure + Rest, it can stay alive for some time, and can afford to use Life Orb for extra power. I personally think it's good enough for B- rank, though I won't get too defensive if you guys would rather it stay in C rank. I agree with the rest of your list apart from Donphan and Vaporeon.
 
K, here's a list of pokemon I think should go down to D-Tier
Crobat
crobat is good with a choice band set, so it's fine in C.
Crustle
no. If anything, crustle should go to B-, it's a great lead for HO teams.
Donphan
Agreed
Durant
Agreed
Nidoqueen
Nidoqueen is fine in C rank, with her access to Toxic Spikes and good special attack she can support the team well
Scrafty
People need to use the dragon dance set, not the shitty BU set, which isn't even D-rank worthy. DD Scrafty is C-rank for sure
Shaymin
Agreed
Smeargle
TOTALLY agreed
Snorlax
snorlax is good on sun teams, though ...
Togekiss
Agreed
Vaporeon
Somewhat agreed, but the LO Hydration set is actually really good
There are a few pokemon I missed, but all of these pokemon seem to fit the definition of D-Tier IMO.
Chandelure should also go down to D-rank seeing as it can't really hurt Tyranitar and Politoed, it's slow and weak to stealth rock. Can't wait for ST chandy to be released
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
I also think that quite a few things should get moved down to D-Rank so here is my take on for Macargo2s list

Crobat-> to D I can't think of a niche for that guy really sure it resists Brelooms Stabs, but thats it it is SR weak, doesn't hits hard and isn't as bulky as it wants to be the only set in its OU analysis is the Stall breaker and considering that there are 1. tons of Pokemon that do that better and 2. there are almost no Stall teams i don't know why i would ever use it on a serious team.

Crustle-> to D Mostly outclassed by Forretress, Skarmory and Smeargel in his Suicide Spiker niche, its typing is arguably worse and while it seems nice to hit Espeon and Xatu for SE damage most of the time these pokemon will still block his Hazards and break Sturdy in the process wich means they will still have done their job while Crustle failed to do so regardless. Skarmory and Forry can atleast still be useful midgame thanks to their great typings as well as their respective PHazing and Rapid Spin capabilities while Crustle is SR weak and beaten by every spinner in OU.

Donphan-> keep in C Donphan isn't the best Pokemon but it has a legit niche on Sun Teams where it is arguably a staple Pokemon while Forry and Xatu are often better at preventing Hazards and lying them down Donphans acces to Ice Shard and ability to check Terrakion as well as other physical threats make it viable. If there would be a C+ and C- Tier it would imo still be C and maybe even C+.

Durant-> to D
It is way too frail so it has a hard time setting up and while 109 base Speed is good there are still a good number of Pokemon that outspeed it and all of them threaten to OHKO. It is also beaten by almost every Scarfer in the game and has coverage issues. Its OU analysis descibes it as high risk high reward pokemon, but imo it high risk meh reward sure it hits hard like hell after set-up but so does Terrakion, Lando-T and tons of other shit that isn't threatend to be 2HKOd by resisted special attacks.

Nidoqueen-> to D
If there would be a C- rank that would be where i would place it. On the one hand it got a strange typing that allows it to wall Terrakion and a great ability in Sheer Force that significantly boosts its weak attack stat to acceptable levels. On the other hand it is outclassed by all other bulky grounds especially since all of them can lay down SR now and Terrakion isn't as common as it used to be. Toxic Spikes aren't as useful any more considering that almost every team either carries something that absorbs them or doesn't cares about them any way because HO actually enjoys being poisoned so you can't get Scald burned or paralyzed anymore.

Scrafty to D another C- candidate unique typing that gives him almost unresisted Stabs along with respectable bulk as well as great abilities and a two great set-up moves are ruined by awkward offensive stats. 58 base speed means that even after 2 DDs it is outspeed by the most common Scarfers. It is also neutral to all common priority as well as weak to Mach Punch and even after it has set-up it still doen't hits as hard as you want it to thanks to a mediocre 90 base attack and the fact that it has to choose between the weak Drain Punch or the risky HJK. In the end there are just too many better physical attackers for me to use Scrafty.

Shaymin i really don't know about this one i have never seen it in OU and i really can't think of a reason to use it. Mono grass is an awkward typing and while it got good base stats it really lacks a way to abuse them Seed Flare is a great move, but it is propably the only great move Shaymin actually has it got no useful support move. It is suscepible to all Hazards weak to U-Turn and if you invest enough in defenses to actually be able to wall something you don't hit hard enough anymore. I would really like to hear someones opinion who actually used this thing in OU.

Smeargle-> keep C
it can be used on Smash Pass teams as well as a Suicide Lead it is pretty slow and frail but fast enough to outspeed the majority of support mons and can at least take a Scald outside of the Rain. It is imo high risk high reward if you mange to sleep something while keeping your Sash intact it is guaranteed to to its job and that isn't as hard as it sounds to be. Its ultimate downfall (aside from its pitiful stats) is ironically its predictability as you will know its set exactly when you see it in Team preview. Its not a good Pokemon, but what it can do is dangerous and it is a staple on Smash Pass and BP teams also Spore alone will likely grab a KO in every match so C is justified.

Snorlax-> to D
Snorlax simply doesn't cut it in OU it can trap the Latis and is good against Sun, but outside of that it got nothing. It is pitifully slow and most strong physical attacks will 2HKO it is susceptible for Scald burns that will ultimatly render it useless and even if it isn't burned it doesn't hits that hard not to mention that Normal isn't the gratest Stab especially considering the most viable set is CB. Being weak to Fighting and not having any useful resistances outside of Fire and Ice (that it only gets at the cost of an ability) ultimatly seals the deal for me.

Togekiss-> to D similar to Snorlax above just with an SR weakness and some weaknesses to Electric and Ice. It got a great movepool including some useful moves like Heal Bell, Nasty Plot and Aura Sphere, but the OU enviroment is simply too hostile for it to be able to show off its strengths.

Vaporeon-> keep C the last few pages have enough discussion on why Vaporeon should be C rank so i skip this one, it isn't bad just outclassed and got a niche on some teams so C seems fine.
 

Neliel

Sacred Sword
i would like to put gliscor into an inferior rank
the reason is that lando (both formes) gives him much competition and i just feel its completely outclassed in everything except the sub toxic set, which isnt as good as it was in bw 1 imo
landorus-t has intimidate which is waaay more usefull, more offensive presence to hit stuff (for example, you dont lose to sd chomp because eq does only 30%) and generally you dont want to waste an another slot to put sr just to use the sub toxic set. yeah i know that gliscor can run the exact same set as lando-t, but if everyone uses lando-t there is a reason.
also offensively lando-t has an higher attack, the possibility of going mixed, and it can use life orb, while gliscor cant because of flying gem... and lando-i ... well you know how hard it hits
so basically i see very little reasons to use it

the same is for espeon. i've never seen one in all the battles i saw at the spl, smogon tour ectect
i still havent understood what exactly it can do over xatu, and why a player should use it instead of xatu
if someone can clarify this for me ill appreciate it
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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i would like to put gliscor into an inferior rank
the reason is that lando (both formes) gives him much competition and i just feel its completely outclassed in everything except the sub toxic set, which isnt as good as it was in bw 1 imo
landorus-t has intimidate which is waaay more usefull, more offensive presence to hit stuff (for example, you dont lose to sd chomp because eq does only 30%) and generally you dont want to waste an another slot to put sr just to use the sub toxic set. yeah i know that gliscor can run the exact same set as lando-t, but if everyone uses lando-t there is a reason.
also offensively lando-t has an higher attack, the possibility of going mixed, and it can use life orb, while gliscor cant because of flying gem... and lando-i ... well you know how hard it hits
so basically i see very little reasons to use it

the same is for espeon. i've never seen one in all the battles i saw at the spl, smogon tour ectect
i still havent understood what exactly it can do over xatu, and why a player should use it instead of xatu
if someone can clarify this for me ill appreciate it

I feel like B+ rank is perfect for Gliscor, because it is outclassed by Landorus-T in almost every way, but Gliscor is still a really good Pokemon, and Landorus-T is in A+ rank, 3 ranks above it. I feel like that shows that Landorus-T is a much better Defensive Ground-type, but Gliscor is still usable, and a good Pokemon. I don't think we should put Pokemon in lower ranks just because they are outclassed by something in the upper tiers. If that was the case, then Haxorus belongs in D-Rank, because it's completely outclassed by every Dragon in the tier. Gliscor is in B+ rank because it is outclassed by Landorus-T all the way in A+ rank. Gliscor shouldn't drop any lower. B+ is perfect for it. Outclassed, but still a fantastic Pokemon. Pokemon in B Rank have a lot more flaws then Gliscor such as Amoonguss and Bronzong, but other than being outclassed, Gliscor is still as good as it was. It doesn't deserve to be shafted into lower tiers.
 
I wouldn't say outclassed for Gliscor, stiff competition, yes. Gliscor still has quite a few traits which make it stand out, mainly passive recovery which helps it stick around much longer in the game. Gliscor also has a variety of moves with make it stand out: Ice Fang, Taunt, Baton Pass, ect.

However, I do agree that it probably deserves to drop down a peg or 2.
 
I'm going to explain why I wanted to drop several pokemon to D-Rank. However, I have changed my opinion on a few of them.
Crobat: The main reason I wanted to demote this pokemon is that there isn't much of a reason to use it. Its only good set, the stall breaker set, no only is inferior to most other stall breaker, but is also somewhat useless in the metagame due to the rarity of stall teams. Its only real selling point is being a fantastic breloom check.
Crustle: The main reason I wanted to demote this pokemon is that Custap skarmory and forretress are better leads, due to their abilities to Self spinblock and in Skarmory's case, taunt walls. I honestly see no reason to use it over either of them.
Donphan: The main reason I wanted to demote this pokemon is that forretress and hitmontop are better general rapid spinners. Forretress has better typing, a stronger Stab move in the form of gyro ball, volt switch, spikes and better physical bulk while Hitmontop also has better typing and better overall bulk. Of course ice shard does allow donphan to KO heavily weakened pokemon. If donphan stays in C-Rank I think that hitmontop should move up to C-Rank as well (and please don't say that "its barely viable in UU" as your reasoning for not moving up since UU viability is irrelevant in OU).
Durant: A very High Risk pokemon, which is the main reason it should go down to D-Rank. It has a difficult time setting up due to its poor bulk, although if it does manage to set up, it becomes a major threat. However, setting up is very, very, very difficult and for that reason, durant should be D-Rank.
Nidoqueen: Although this is a horrible reason, I think that Nidoqueen should drop because golurk, a similar pokemon, is D-Rank and because its outclassed by several other ground types. Nidoqueen has similar flaws to golurk and then some. Of course access to a phazing move and toxic spikes are two pros she has that our robot friend does not, so Low C-Rank is fine.
Scrafty: Needs two dragon dances to actually outspeed things and faces major competition with other, better fighting types. It has to rely on either the weak drain punch, or the risky High jump kick for a fighting STAB move. Setting up is also hard due to scrafty's not so amazing bulk. Of course, its amazing STAB combo and moxie could make it into a potential Low C Rank candidate, but D-Rank seems fitting.
Smeargle: VERY reliant on its focus sash to do anything useful, making it limited to being a lead. Another major flaw is that smeargle cannot do anything if its taunted, leaving it prone to being setup on. Of course, its a decent hazard setter and baton passer and its ability to take somethng out spore shouldn't be underestimated, so Low C-Rank is fine.
Snorlax: There is literally no reason to use this thing apart from beating sun teams and trapping, which tyranitar is better at. Snorlax is only usable on teams that are weak to sun teams, need a trapper and do not want sand stream, limiting snorlax's use on rain and sun teams. Overall very niche.
Shaymin: I originally wanted to demote shaymin because it was basically a celebi without a fighting resistence, recovery and a scouting move, but the lack of pursuit weakness allows it to check the entire landorus-keldeo-tyranitar core. Of course, thats its only real niche over celebi. I guess low C-Rank is fine, but I still think that it should go down to D-Rank.
Togekiss: Like snorlax, there is literally no reason to use this thing. Apart from landorus, togekiss walls no notable threats in the metagame. Like Burning man said, the OU environment is too hostile for togekiss to show off its strengths.
Vaporeon: I wanted to demote vaporeon because it has no real niche, but I've come to agree with several other users that while vaporeon is outclassed, it isn't bad enough to be D-Rank.
 
What is Shaymin's niche anyway? Seriously I can not think of what role it provides in comparison to the various other use able defensive grass types:
-Ferrothorn: solid defensive wall, steel type, stealth rock and spikes
-Celebi: walls common pokemon like breloom and keldeo possibly even Landorus, has stealth rocks and perish song
-Roserade: similar to Celebi, but can set up spikes and toxic spikes, absorbs t-spikes (people don't realize it is pursuit weak most of the time)
-Amoonguss: walls similar Pokemon Celebi but even better thanks to Regenerator, spore, absorbs t-spikes
-Tangrowth: strong defensive Pokemon a good check to Terrakion
-Abomasnow: hail
-Shaymin: ???

If Shaymin has a niche, it must be a tiny one.
 
I'd like to nominate Cresselia for B- rank. Arguably one of the best mixed walls in the game, Cresselia walls Landorus(one of the current suspects) to no end and can easily support a team well. 120/120/130 defenses mean it can easily tackle most attackers in the current game. Cresselia is also a great supporter, having Dual Screens as well as Lunar Dance, which allows it to tank hits while screening and then Lunar Dance to a weakened sweeper who can wreck havoc once again.
 
Nominating Nidoking for C-rank. Maybe even B- if Lando-I gets banned. With a great special attack provided by Sheer Force coupled with Life Orb he hits really hard. Earth Power, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, you name it. This guy's main problem is his speed and only average bulk.
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
What is Shaymin's niche anyway? Seriously I can not think of what role it provides in comparison to the various other use able defensive grass types:
-Ferrothorn: solid defensive wall, steel type, stealth rock and spikes
-Celebi: walls common pokemon like breloom and keldeo possibly even Landorus, has stealth rocks and perish song
-Roserade: similar to Celebi, but can set up spikes and toxic spikes, absorbs t-spikes (people don't realize it is pursuit weak most of the time)
-Amoonguss: walls similar Pokemon Celebi but even better thanks to Regenerator, spore, absorbs t-spikes
-Tangrowth: strong defensive Pokemon a good check to Terrakion
-Abomasnow: hail
-Shaymin: ???

If Shaymin has a niche, it must be a tiny one.

Shaymin is actually an Offensive Grass type it is more of a tank compared to the other Pokemon, the problem is that no one actually needs an offensive Grass type Pokemon because Grass is a horrible offensive type that will always have serious coverage issues, thats also propably the reason why Cholorophyll pokemon are all bad except for Venusaur and mehish Sawsbuck.

@above Currently Nidoking is so outclassed by Lando-I i don't see any reason to use it at all. It is an okay Smash Pass receiver, although there are still better ones its typing is okay, but it is hit hard by most priority and its stats are lackluster . Sure it got great coverage moves that play nicely with Sheer Force, but even with Sheer Force it doesn't hits that hard.
 

PDC

street spirit fade out
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Here to make a case for Shaymin.

Shaymin is a tough case, it owned in BW1 and I thought it was actually pretty cool for what it does. It may be a pure grass type which has pretty average (but wholesome) stats all around, but it does have some pretty neat niches in the BW2 metagame, aside from being possibly the most adorable Pokemon ever. Seed Flare is a pretty strong and cool move specifically because of the SDef drop, which makes it a worth-while option to use. Shaymin can be used in both an offensive and defensive way, but I prefer offensive just because of how it can uniquely use that SDef drop to its advantage. Usually a set like Seed Flare / Earth Power / Hidden Power Ice ( or Fire ) / Rest works quite well. You have a automatic full recovery, a pretty solid set of coverage, and paired with Life Orb, decent enough power. The main niche Shaymin really receives over Celebi specifically is that it is not Pursuit weak and can often act as a semi-check to things like Landorus-I and such. Celebi may be a pretty overall more solid option, but Shaymin is definitely something interesting. That special defense drop allows it to often put its counters in trouble, especially those slower than it like Blissey, Dragonite, and even those faster than it dislike being struct with a powerful base 120 power STAB move, which is very convenient for Shaymin. While it can't act as a good defensive Pokemon like Celebi, who often outclasses it in this role aside from being Pursuit weak, Shaymin can still make use of more defensively minded moves such as Leech Seed to cripple incoming opponents. Shaymin may not be top tier by a long shot, but it deserves a spot on the list simply for these niches. We allow many other things that don't serve large or important aspects in the metagame, so why not Shaymin? It is not a horrible Pokemon by any means, and it does have a few good antics that keep it at a pretty interesting and solid benchmark. Shaymin should not be higher than a C- Rank though, because even with these interesting niches, it is nothing overly special, and it does not serve a gigantic role in the metagame as it stands.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Well, a while since I've posted here. Anyways, I'll actually weigh in about these D-Rank demotions discussion

Crobat: I'd be fine with this. I haven't used Crobat, and it doesn't look superbly appealing to me. I guess it's a good Breloom check, though stall honestly isn't that common, Crobat doesn't hit extraordinarily hard, and has limited coverage. I'd use something else, and if my team needs a Breloom check, I'd use the Lati duo before this. I'm cool with moving it down to D-Rank.

Crustle: This one on the other hand I'm not so sure about. I've used Crustle quite a bit, and it's a decent choice for offensive teams to be honest. Yeah, Espeon and Xatu can bounce, but honestly you shouldn't be laying hazards if you see one of them in Team Preview. It has the nice advantage of being able to catch Espeon on the switch with X-Scissor, although it has to be paired up with a spinblocker if it wants its work to stay around. It's also pretty outclassed by Custap Skarmory. That said, I've used it to success before, so I'm honestly not sure about this.

Donphan: Nah, keep it in C. Donphan is the worst Rapid Spin user in OU by far, but it has a good place on Sun teams with its SR+Spin combo allowing it to support its team decently. It also has Ice Shard which is cool to catch Landorus-I on the switch in. It also has the bulk to check things like Terrakion. Not a great Pokemon, maybe not even good, but it should avoid D-Rank.

Durant: Hmm. I've used this thing a couple of times, and well, it's a mixed bag. It packs a ridiculous amount of power, and has a reasonable Speed tier. It also has nice coverage now with Superpower in hand, so it can pull of some sweeps here and there. That special bulk is horrible though, and things like even Latios/Latias can beat it one-on-one. High-risk, maybe high-reward. I'd be fine with D, though Low C definitely isn't unreasonable.

Nidoqueen: Well, I'd rather just split up C and put this in Low before moving it down. It's got a niche with its typing allowing it to wall Terrakion, which is pretty cool. Sheer Force also allows it to pack reasonable power, and with the movepool it's pretty nice. Toxic Spikes+SR is kinda decent as is D-Tail. I'd be cool with Low C-Rank for this thing, since it does have some things going for it.

Scrafty: This I'd put in the lower end of C. I've had pretty positive experiences with Scrafty tbh, as his good coverage and Moxie is pretty cool, and after DD you can definitely pull off a nice sweep with Moxie. The Moxie snowball can make Scrafty hard to stop, especially with support. It needs a lot of support though, and it faces a lot of competition from other Pokemon in the tier, although Scrafty can be effective if you use him with the proper support. In this meta is really needs help if it wants to always succeed, but I'll say it's Low C-Rank material because I've actually had legitimate success with it.

Shaymin: This thing's good enough for C, tbh. The mono Grass typing is pretty unique, and Seed Flare is pretty cool to severely weaken specially defensive Pokemon. Shaymin also has some cool coverage, and it can also take on some stuff as a bulky attacker, especially Keldeo and Dugtrio. Rest+Natural Cure is also something. Not a top tier mon, but C worthy.

Smeargle: Fine in C. It has the nice niche as a SmashPasser, and Spore+SmashPass is a pretty cool trick. SmashPass is a very deadly thing in OU, as with things like Gorebyss (that reminds me, we should add Gorebyss to the rankings somewhere), and it also has a cool hazards lead set that it can Spore followed up by a barrage of hazards. Can do well actually, has some niches so C-worthy.

Snorlax: I'm okay with this. I haven't used Snorlax much, and I don't care to because the only real things it has going for it is checking sun and the Lati duo. It's not a great Pokemon and should really only be used if your team is for some reason mortally terrified of Volcarona. Pretty niche Pokemon, I guess D-Rank is fine by me.

Togekiss: Meta is unkind to it, pretty outclassed as a parahaxer by Jirachi. Has useful tools, and as much as I love Togekiss, I'd be fine with D, since it's pretty niche in general

Vaporeon: Yeah it has uses on some teams so C is fine. I don't get why the hell Vaporeon is OU (it should've dropped to UU a while ago lol), but eh it's not completely nicheless.
 

PK Gaming

Persona 5
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Move Those Pokemon Up/Down!

Update
Stoutland up from B ==> B+
Breloom up from A ==> A+
Crobat down from C ==> D
Snorlax down from C ==> D
Scrafty down from C==> D
Togekiss down from C==> D
Ditto down from B==> C
Thundurus-T down from A+ ==> A
Sharpedo up from C ==> B
Magnezone up from B ==> B+
Haxorus down from B==> B-
Espeon down B==> B-
Gyarados up from A- ==> A*
Salamence up from A- ==> A*

(*From this point on, the A- rank will cease to exist. There's simply no need to split A-rank into 3 ranks, A+ and A will suffice.)

@Stoutland: Stoutland is actually somewhat of a staple on Sand teams. It's effective at sweeping teams during the lategame and it can check some Pokemon. It doesn't see nowhere as much use to warrant a position in A-rank, but B+ suits it fine.

@Breloom: Breloom is in a really good position in BW OU. The sash set in particular is seeing use on a ton of teams(for good reason, it's devastating), and Breloom continues to do work on a nearly consistent basis. A step above A-rank, imo.
@Ditto: It looks good on paper, but it's not nearly as impressive in practice and it sees next to non-existent usage. A niche Pokemon if I ever saw one.

@Haxorus: Is beginning to look like the odd man out of B-rank. It's the only Pokemon that sees absolutely 0 competitive use in high level play AND sees poor usage in standard OU. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did in this rank. To reiterate, it isn't outright bad, or outclassed by anything (Kyurem-B is blatantly better, it doesn't outclass Haxorus) but Haxorus is too slow and frail to really see use in OU.

@Espeon: Is another Pokemon that barely manages to see use in top level OU. I don't think it stands on the same level as any of the other Pokemon listed in B-rank, but its niche in BP is why it's managed to stay in the B-rank bracket.

@ Thundurus-T: I may have gotten ahead of myself when I stealth moved it to A+ rank without provocation. Thundurus-T is still ridiculous, but upon reflection I don't think it consistently stands on the level of A+ rank like the other Pokemon in that rank do.

@Magnezone: It's about on par with the other trappers (it's 2nd to none when it comes to trapping steel-types)

@Crobat, Togekiss, Scrafty and Snorlax: None of these Pokemon have a niche worth considering in OU.

@Sharpedo: Sharpedo is definitely not on the same level as any of the Pokemon in it's tier, and is effective against some of the best Pokemon in the game (Latis, Celebi, etc) by virtue of its typing / ability alone. You read right, it's B-tier now. It's that good.

@Gyarados & Salamence: Two ridiculously powerful Pokemon in their own right. I fully concede that I screwed up royally when I decided to underestimate either of these Pokemon for so long.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I love all of the new changes. Bringing down all those Pokémon will also, I hope, stop this natural trend in these threads to move things up more and more as time goes on. There's nothing wrong with a Pokémon being put in D or C rank. It just means it has a more specific niche.
 
This is just a nitpick, but magnezone and haxorus are still listed under mid B-Rank and crobat is nowhere on the list.

Otherwise, pretty much what halcyon said.
 
This might be controversial, but I'm nominating Ninetales for A Rank
Ninetales is honestly not a top tier threat. Yes, it sets up sun, but considering how useless it is outside sun and with the SR weakness makes it really bad.
Just compare Ninetales to each other weather starter in the same or higher rank.
Politoed is FAR better, being able to perish song any walls and actually having some bulk. Even outside Sun, Politoed can pull weight in other weathers. Unlike Ninetales, Politoed can switch in and out to change the weather time and again whereas thanks to SR, Ninetales is on a time bomb.
Tyranitar is also much better than Ninetales: it possesses FAR more bulk and also has amazing attacking prowess. As a pursuit trapper, it can pursuit trap some of the most dangerous threats in OU like Latios and Celebi.
Hippowdon also is considerably better: it possesses far better bulk and can phaze set-up sweepers(which Ninetales can't because it doesn't actually survive hits to be able to phaze). It's attack stat is also quite good and it is perfectly capable of abusing it.

Ninetales speed means it is ALWAYS losing the weather war, meaning it starts with a disadvantage even before the battle begins. Honestly, Ninetales is quite underwhelming. Ninetales isn't A+ or even A material: the only reason why it should stay A-Rank is BECAUSE it can make other mons powerful.
Ninetales doesn't fit A+ because it needs tremendous team support to do well(Dugtrio, Spinner, etc) while most mons in A+ really don't: they can be splashed onto any team and used(with the exception of Ttar and Hippowdon which both outclass Ninetales as a weather inducer) without too much team support.
 
There completely different things.
No, they're not. They are ALL WEATHER INDUCERS!
Ninetales can also run a Nasty Plot set if it predicts right with sunny Day which means it will always beat Politoed and Tyrnaitar if it gains the Nasty Plot boost which is awesome.
So Ninetales has to:a) Use Sunny Day, b) Use Nasty Plot and c) Use Solarbeam
Don't assume that Politoed is just going to sit there while Ninetales does this. Politoed can easily switch out on turn 2 while you Nasty Plot for Landorus(e.g) and then OHKO.

How exactly is Ninetales
always beat[[ing]] Politoed and Tyrnaitar if it gains the Nasty Plot boost
?
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 696-822 (242.5 - 286.41%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ttar is always OHKOing Ninetales with SE, so how exactly is Ninetales even going to Nasty Plot in the first place?
Ninetales can't keep switching in and out thanks to SR, so it's not like Ninetales can force out a mon and THEN set up Nasty Plot.
Here are some more calcs to demonstrate why exactly Ninetales should be A not A+:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales in sun: 248-294 (86.41 - 102.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That means that EVEN IF Ninetales sets up Sunny Day, Politoed can just use Perish Song, switch out for an SR setter, set SR and come back in. The next time, Ninetales can't come back in because it's OHKOed even in Sun.
Ninetales is 2HKOed by most viable mons in the meta if not outright OHKOed.
Also, about Venusaur: I'm not suggesting Ninetales be lower, because Venusaur is as of now in A-Rank and hence I'm merely suggesting Ninetales stay in the same rank.

Look at EACH mon in A+: how many of them require the kind of team support needed by Ninetales(a trapper, a spinner, etc)
  • A+
    • Alakazam: Doesn't need too much team support, sweeps on it's own. Needs a dark,bug and ghost type resist to take care of it's counters, but steel(a common defensive type) resists all three so again, not much team support needed.
    • Breloom: Again, not much team support needed. Most mons that resist it's STABs are beaten out by Spore, so it can easily get a kill on it's own.
    • Celebi: Celebi needs support vs bug types, but with the prevalence of steel and fire types in OU, this is readily available.
    • Ferrothorn: Only needs a mon to take fire types(which loads of mons can) and not even that with rain support.
    • Garchomp: None required, as Ice-types are readily handled by many mons in the meta.
    • Hippowdon: Again, not much as Sand Stream makes it a hard wall to crack.
    • Jirachi: No, because of it's versatility, it has enough options to beat out mons it has problems with(such as paralysis or flinch hax or BOTH)
    • Kyurem-B: No, because most of OU can't take it's Outrages except Steel-types(which are dealt with by it's coverage such as Fusion Bolt).
    • Landorus-T: Needs support vs Ice but this is once again easily available due to multiple steel types available which are needed to wall dragons anyways.
    • Latias: Not really, needs check vs Dark-types and pursuit trappers but otherwise can be splashed as generic wall on most teams.
    • Latios: Not really, outspeeds most of the meta and hits like a truck so can just be splashed on most teams.
    • Ninetales: Exception, needs spinner and trapper amongst other support to function.
    • Rotom-W: No, can be splashed on most teams although rain support is prefered.
    • Scizor: No(as clear from usage), can be splashed on most teams thanks to versatility and ability, although fire-type check needed.
    • Starmie: Not much, as it outspeeds majority of meta and can beat out counters with coverage.
    • Terrakion: No, because with CB and X-Scissor it beats out most of mons that resist it's STABs.
    • Tyranitar: No, it supports itself with Sand Stream and can be splashed as glue on most cores(such as KeldLandoTtar)
Ninetales should be A because it needs far more team support to succeed than any other mon in A+ and thus should be A(it is dangerous, but support needed is too much for A+)
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
If politoed didn't have drizzle, it would not be listed
If ttar didn't have sandstream, it would be in C rank at best
Ninetales is no different

These pokemon (bar partly ttar) are ranked because of their support
Both drizzle and drought are individually worth at least A rank
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I think the fact that sun teams are so incredibly strong (especially against weatherless and Ttar sand) makes Ninetales worthy of its current ranking. For a weatherless team, taking down Venusaur is quite the headache since you have no way of denying it that +2 speed boost. Victini and darmanitan become extremely hard to wall since their already insane STAB moves get a 50% boost. Cresselia becomes an almost unbeatable wall and Volcarona an unbeatable sweeper. All of this is possible because of Ninetales. Keep it where it is.
 
''Ninetales'' inst really relevant. Its Drought that is the real deal here. Since drought teams with clorophyl and fire type abusers are extremely powerful ''Ninetales'' should stay A+Rank. In the same way that drizzle keeps ''Politoed'' in S-Rank since rain has a bunch of powerful and versatile abusers. The fact that ninetales is easily the worst weather starter doesnt matter much because the support it provides is crucial for sun teams to work. Speaking of the recent tier changes i strongly disagree with thundurus-t drop. The agility set is ridiculous good even outside of rain and nasty plot can really wreck slower teams. Its simply too powerful and too much of a threat to be any lower than A+.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Gyarados for A+ rank. Imo it is the best Dragon Dance sweeper in OU atm. I ran the SubDD set recently on a team of mine, and I swept with it 9/10. I used it to great success on the ladder as well as against individual players, and it has become a personal favorite of mine to run. It absolutely demolishes teams nowadays, being able to use it's unique typing and good bulk to set up easily. Keld/Land/Tar cores get 6-0d by SubDD Gyarados. The only mon left nowadays that can truly irritate Gyarados is Rotom, and even that can be defeated by Rain boosted Waterfall after a couple DDs. I could write more, but I'm sure everyone knows how amazing this is in the current meta.

I didn't want to be the first one to recommend this, but I completely agree. I don't give a fuck how slow Gyarados is and how common Rotom-W is used, Gyrados is probably the greatest sweeper in the entire OU metagame right now, in and outside of rain. It's typing is incredible offensively and defensively, making it easy for it to setup and threaten. It has two fantastic abilities, one which helps it setup, while the other makes it easier to sweep. It can abuse rain, the most dominant play style in OU right now. Dragon Dance patches up its mediocre speed and heightens its Attack to higher levels. With a bit of bulk investment, only super effective attacks or strong STAB attacks can break its Substitutes. It's only weak to Rock and Electric moves, Rock being unreliable and Electric being rare outside of Rotom-W. All these combined to create one of the most dangerous sweepers in the entire OU metagame that every team should prepare for, because I tell you what, I think I've been swept by Gyarados more than any other Pokemon in OU, even more than DD Dragonite or SD Lucario. A+ rank seems perfect for it. It still needs a bit of team support, but with that support, you help create a monster of a Pokemon.
 
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