Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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This thread is seriously getting worse and worse every second.
Anyways, I propose that kyurem-b is moved up to S-rank. Kyurem-b is arguably the best dragon in ou and by far the most powerful. Thanks to its amazing 170/120 attacking stats and decent coverage with ice beam, fusion blot and earth power, kyurem-b is sure to leave a dent on the opponent's. While its typing isn't amazing defensively, it does give it a resistance to water and electric, and a neutrality towards ice and fire, and combined with its amazing 125/100/90, kyurem-b is able to check rain, sun and hail teams, as well as double dance thundurus-t, rotom-w and jolteon. In fact, with a little bit of defensive investment, Kyurem-b can tank a choice banded scizor's bullet punch AFTER SR, an impressive feat no doubt.

While Kyurem-b may have a Stealth Rock weakness, average speed and common weaknesses, many pokemon who are banned (or otherwise potential S-Rank candidates) like kyurem-W and Ho-oh have these problems. Kyurem-b isn't very different. Despite its flaws, its amazing stats, ability to check nearly every weather and great coverage warrant it a spot in S-Rank.

Also, meloetta somehow disappeared from the list

(I apologize if my reasoning was confusing).
 

Gary

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Just because a Pokemon is "broken" doesn't make it automatically eligible for S-rank. Let's just make that clear.

Now with Kyurem-B going to S-rank, I don't know whether to agree or disagree. It definitely has the potential to be S-rank, because its mixed set is extremely hard to prepare for depending on what moves its running, and it's Choiced sets are extremely dangerous when used correctly; the Banded set makes Kyurem-B the best wall breaker in the tier, the Scarf set makes it one of the best late cleaners in the tier. The infamous Substitute set is pretty damn easy to pull off because of how often Kyurem-B will be forcing switches with its great mixed coverage. On top of all that power and versatility, Kyurem-B is extremely bulky for an offensive powerhouse, as 125/100/90 defenses are nothing to scoff at when comparing them to other Dragons in the tier. With this bulk, and with a bit of investment, Kyurem-B is capable of tanking a Close Combat from Scarf Terrakion after Rocks, and even a Bullet Punch from CB Scizor or a Mach Punch from LO Breloom. That's really impressive, considering that Kyurem-B can tank a hit and proceed to waste them next turn with Ice Beam, HP Fire, or Dragon Claw. Speaking of Mixed Kyurem-B, I feel like a lot of people tend to focus on its physical sets, when in fact, the mixed sets are what makes Kyurem-B one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier. The Choiced sets are walled by common Steel-types such as Ferrothorn and Forretress, both of which can either paralyze or destroy Kyurem-B with Gyro Ball. The mixed sets can waste Ferrothorn and Forretress no problem, paving the way for an Outrage sweep late-game.

Of course, there are some factors that push it away from easily being S-rank. First off, it's Ice-typing gives it that dreaded Fighting, Steel, and Rock-type weaknesses, making it hard for him to consistently switch-in on a spinnerless team. Next off, Kyurem-B has some pretty bad 4MSS, because it's Mixed set is always walled by something. It wants to run Fusion Bolt / HP Fire / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Outrage / Draco Meteor / Roost, but it either has to give up longevity for coverage, or give up coverage for more coverage. Kyurem-B is also weak to common priority, and even though he can tank a hit at least once, it still puts a lot of offensive pressure onto Kyurem-B. Last but not least, Kyurem-B sits at an awkward 95 base speed tier. There really isn't anything significant that Kyurem-B out speeds maybe other than Mamoswine, but there sure is a lot of Pokemon that Kyurem-B misses out on, such as Salamence, Volcarona, Terrakion, Keldeo, Garchomp, Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, and even Haxorus. It's slow compared to most of the metagame, which sucks because it's easily revenge killed by faster things.

All in all, Kyurem-B is a fantastic Pokemon that is seriously underrated in this metagame. It's versatile, powerful, bulky, and did I say powerful? It has a few crippling flaws that may keep it from being S-rank, but it's just so damn good at what it does it's really hard to decide on what I think it fits in. I think it could work in S rank, but it fits in A+ rank very nicely. It's hard telling.
 

Neliel

Sacred Sword
omg this thread is getting stupid.
btw, i think the most effective set salamence has in this gen is the scarf set, as remedy said, because it can revenge kill things and at the same time "mantain momentum". If, for example, you chose a scarf latios you can switch after a draco meteor(whereas you cant with outrage), but you will be setup fodder for just about everything, while this doesnt happen with salamence. However, i think its worth using it only in hyper offensive teams (custap offense) because the typing, the speed latios has makes it a better choice if you dont want to be that aggressive with your team.
now lets be honest, if salamence was the only dragon in ou, i would even put it in S rank. but its not the only one. if you want a dragon dance set dragonite is often your best choice. the reason is simple, multiscale. with that, you can setup on an ice beam and win the game. with salamence, you can not. Now about stealth rock, sure, they exist, but you have to avoid them. fast leads with taunt are often used, especially in hyper offensive teams (the type of team where you want to use it!). And the sand doesnt matter, really, the turn you will setup the dragon dance you will still have it activated. also, the stealth rock argoment should even be mentioned because salamence its weak to them as well, and im pretty sure that a band close combat from terrakion kos it, so gl setupping. Also, i've seen some calcs of fire moves koing a ferrothorn. now, i have to ask, how many competent players have you battled that used a ferrothorn without rain? sure you can find it in sand teams sometimes, but dont pretend rain wont be up. Im saying this because i find superpower much more usefull than fire punch on dragonite, koing ferrothorn at +1 under rain, something that salamence cant do.
Now, for the cb set, dragonite is better as well. CB nite after all its used for two reason: a) send it early game when rocks arent up to get a kill thanks to multiscale
b) if dragonite is still alive, revenge kill something with that strong priority (which is as strong as scizor bpunch more or less)
Even kyurem its better with a cb set, at least you 2ko almost any steel type with outrage (maybe its wrong but i dont care, we are talking about a 170 base atk) and it even have ibeam for lando-t which is annoying.
Whats left? special and mixed attacker. kyurem runs that awesome sub set which can handle a rain stall on its own. Ice beam/bolt/epower (even focus blast works) and its better than salamence because it can sub on toxic or scald which completely ruins salamence, also salamence has to rely on fire blast which is bad every time you face a rain team (and dont say you use it with sand to counter rain, its just bad) and has to drago meteor every bulky water, often not koing them and being stalled (jellicent comes to mind).
Heck even hydreygon works better to an extent, at least its not sr weak.
So thats what i think about dragons and more specifically salamence. if you want to argue with what i said its ok, ill respond you, but if you want to put salamence in a+ rank you have to talk only about his best set. This is bw, saying "it has no counter!" doesnt mean anything anymore. Even pikachu has no counter but look at his usage stat.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
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Okay, I like using Salamence (though if I can help it I try to avoid using any set but Scarf,) but there is no way it should be A+ rank for any reason. Salamence's bulk isn't great by BW's standards, so setting up with DD isn't that easy. Hydreigon I think is a better Mixed attacker than Salamence because it has Superpower to hit Blissey/Chansey, while Salamence only gets Outrage to do the same (don't bring up Brick Break, Brick Break is terrible). Hydreigon can even run Dark Pulse to hit Jellicent without resorting to Draco Meteor. Though, Kyurem-B is better than both for reasons already explained enough.

But man, this thread only gets worse, to the point that I think we shouldn't have viability ranking threads in Generation VI.
 

Gary

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Okay, I like using Salamence (though if I can help it I try to avoid using any set but Scarf,) but there is no way it should be A+ rank for any reason. Salamence's bulk isn't great by BW's standards, so setting up with DD isn't that easy. Hydreigon I think is a better Mixed attacker than Salamence because it has Superpower to hit Blissey/Chansey, while Salamence only gets Outrage to do the same (don't bring up Brick Break, Brick Break is terrible). Hydreigon can even run Dark Pulse to hit Jellicent without resorting to Draco Meteor. Though, Kyurem-B is better than both for reasons already explained enough.

But man, this thread only gets worse, to the point that I think we shouldn't have viability ranking threads in Generation VI.

I agree. Every nomination turns into a fight between X, Y, and possibly a Z, all who never seem to give up until someone intervenes. Why is it so hard to have competitive discussion these days without breaking out in a fight? Why is it that no one can ever admit that they're wrong?
 

PK Gaming

Persona 5
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Solutions:

Stop incessantly posting the same thing over and over again. Stop replying to noobs, and ignore them if necessary? Try to avoid engaging in arguments unless its absolutely necessary. (it's pointless to try and convince pokemaster62) And most important of all, think about each post you make, and always ask yourself this; "is this post necessary." In other words, I don't want to see any "controversial" nominations again, unless you have a very good reason. (and no, "because I used it to great effect" does not count)

And no more ad hominem attacks. Seriously cut that shit out.
 

ElectivireRocks

Banned deucer.
I support Kyurem-B for S-rank as well.

It is quite possibly the best anti-weather pokemon in the tier, royally screwing up rain, sun, hail and sand teams running Hippowdown.
Even Tyranitar needs to watch out, as Kyu-B outspeeds it and has many ways to 2HKO it.

It sets up exceptionally bulky Substitutes in the face of many, many common support pokemon including but not limted to Jellicent, Celebi, Blissey, Ferrothorn (without Gyro Ball), Vaporeon, Skarmory and Tentacruel.

Until its set is revealed it has no hard counters, or even checks, because if switch your steel-type of choice in expecting an Outrage and it turns out to be a LO-boosted Earth Power you'll be in a world of pain.
And let's not forget how Teravolt allows it to laugh at the likes of Rotom-W and Bronzong who could otherwise absorb its Earth Power.

Its movepool is by no means terrible, having access to powerful attacks from both sides of the spectrum, reliable recovery, a phazing move that actually hits hard and even a (though not great) boosting move.
The fact that Kyu-B is the only dragon in OU that can afford not to run its dragon-type STAB (it doesn't really need it with its deadly Ice Beam/Earth Power/Fusion Bolt combo) should be a testament of how deceptively good its movepool is.
In fact, Kyu-B is one of the most versatile pokemon in the tier, being able to run choice band, choice scarf, mixed sets which may or may not feature Substitute, the dreaded Sub/Roost/Dragon Tail/Hone Claws set that single-handedly dismantles stall teams and can do a number to offensive ones.

Its weaknesses are annoying, but let's not forget that Kyu-B doesn't really care about ice attacks instead of being 2x or even 4x weak to them (even Ice Beam, despite being neutral, often fails to break its Substitute) and water/electric/grass are useful resistances to have.

Kyu-B is not going to be sweeping entire teams by itself (though with a choice scarf it's a good lategame-cleaner), but being able to put the user in so many win/win situations and being practically guaranteed to take something down is what makes it so terrifying to face.
 
I'd like to venture Vaporeon for B-

Vaporeon is a slightly above-average bulky Water type. It's 130/60/95 spread leaves something to be desired from the defensive side, but it sponges most attacks reasonably well. 110 Special Attack allows Vaporeon to dish out some nice Scalds/Surfs/Hydro Pumps as well as making Ice Beam less of a filler move and more of an offensive threat. What makes Vaporeon stand out, though, is Hydration.

Hydration gives Vaporeon complete immunity to status in rain. With rain support, Vaporeon can safely sponge Toxic, Spore, Sleep Powder, Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, as well as not be haxed out by a lucky Scald. Vaporeon also gets access to a 100% healing move in Rest. This allows Vaporeon to completely stall out any Pokemon unable to 2HKO it or force it out using a phazing move. Vaporeon is then free to collect boosts with Acid Armor or Work Up, pass them with Baton Pass, set up huge Wishes for teammates, or hit hard with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam.

While Vaporeon may not be able to stand up to strong physical attackers, Blissey and Chansey fare even worse against them. From the special side, Vaporeon with some Special Defense investment can force most nonSTAB Thunder to be a 3HKO, allowing Vaporeon to tank and force out the likes of Starmie and Jirachi without fearing the Paralysis cripple.

Ultimately, Vaporeon's status immunity in rain, along with the ability to pass Wishes and other boosts, should be enough reason for a rank upgrade.

Also,

I vouch for Gorebyss and Huntail for at least D-Rank. Smash-pass is freaking scary, and Sash basically guarantees a free pass while Herb removes all negative aspects of it. Both Gorebyss and Huntail have decent enough bulk to not be OHKOd by stray attacks. +2 speed allows the recipient to be moderately slow and bulkier. For example, a SmashPass to Landorus-T would allow the latter to come in on a Physical attack, sponge it, and proceed to rip through the entire enemy tema. Both Gorebyss and Huntail also can function as late-game sweepers in their own right once priority is off the field.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
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We just moved Vaporeon down-- so no. If you want to look at the reasoning for Vaporeon, just go back a few pages. I don't think anyone wants to argue about it again right now.

Gorebyss at least would probably be fine in D. My opinion-- Smash-Pass is something, and its bulk and offensive potential does something Smeargle can't.

Kabutops just too many weaknesses, and too little natural bulk to be reliably useful. Unlike Kingdra (who can be useful in almost any situation no matter what thanks to its good bulk and decent Speed), Kabutops is much less reliable, and will often have trouble finding opponents it can go up against at all, let alone making sure it does good damage or succeeds in spinning. I think D is fine for it.

Generally speaking, I can't take posts that include "blah blah blah is an insult" very seriously. Cofagrigus and Togekiss are both at least as good (if not better) than Kabutops.
 
A couple things, now that Landorus has been banned, what pokemon do you think will fall and rise in usage, thus raising and lowering their viability, respectively?

Also, when the fuck did Terrakion fall out of S rank? Its been there for so long I didn't even notice it dropped.
 

ShootingStarmie

Bulletproof
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The only Pokemon I really see rising are Pokemon that can deal with Keldeo but couldn't deal with Landorus (and Keldeo). Toxicroak, Latias, Jellicent, Tentecruel, and Dragon types like Salamence and Dragonite. They can all switch into Keldeo moderately well, I guess it all depends on what HP Keldeo is running and what item.

Other than that, I can see stall rising in usage (even though it's still hard pressed by Keldeo and Kyurem-B), and Sun teams will have a big more breathing room (since a well played Landorus-I would nearly always win against a Sun team), meaning they will probably increase in usage (also Pokemon in the Sun have a much easier time with Keldeo for obvious reasons).

"I don't know if this has been brought up before, but I'd like to nominate Terrakion down to A+. Everyone knows how great Terrakion is, which is why it's in S rank in the first place, but I believe there's a reason it's falling in usage. People are picking other Fighting types (like Keldeo and Breloom) over Terrakion, and you can see why when you realise both Breloom and Keldeo can function in Sand AND Rain, where as Terrakion can only really work amazingly in Sand. Sure, you can put Terrakion in a Rain team, but it just isn't "as good" as the other 2.

Then there's priorty. Scizor is the most common Pokemon in OU, and Breloom is in the top 10, prehaps the best checks to Terrakion (when isn't behind a Sub). Latios is also a pretty good check to Terrakion, which is also seeing really high usage (I believe it's in top 10, but don't quote me on that one).

And finally we talk about Terrakion's counter(s). I believe Landorus-T is a counter to Terrakion, as Terrakion misses the 2HKO on Landorus-T with Stone Edge after SR (and I haven't even mentioned how much 80% accuracy sucks). Landorus-T is also being using a lot in the metagame (I think it's top 20). I could also mention lesser used counter, like Slowbro, Gliscor, and Tangrowth, but I think I've got my point across."

I noninated Teraakion for A+ for the following reasons. The whole discussion started at post #3224. Go to there if you'd like to see the arguments from both sides.
 
I'm going to say that all of your points about better fighting types/priority/ubiquitous counters are somewhat true. However, I think the Taunt Terrakion lead pushes it back into A+. That set causes a shitload of early-game momentum against a lot of common teams, replacing Aerodactyl by threatening a lot of things that Aero never could.
 
I'd probably agree that it's focus sash lead set is probably Terrakion's best set right now. It sets up Stealth Rock very reliably and it's great speed and attack mean it is still posing a strong offensive threat even without an offensive item. It's great coverage in just two moves also means it has a lot of room for utility in it's other slots. I've been using a focus sash set with CC/SE/SR/Sandstorm on my VoltTurn team. Because of it's great coverage it easily fits Sandstorm into it's moveset without sacrificing much and turns it into an amazing counter to Sun teams and to a lesser extent, rain teams. It is a much more unpredictable weather user than things like Kingdra and Heatran are and it makes for a great way to rid the field of unwanted Sun and Rain. It's SR/Taunt, Sub, SD, RP, CB, and CS sets are all still relevant threats though and need to be prepared for. Unfortunately, even though Terrakion is an incredibly versatile 'mon in terms of how many movesets it can run, it's bread and butter stab moves consistent with all of its sets are also a double edged sword in that it's checks and counters tend to be the same across each of its sets as well. I'd say the reason it's a good fit for A+ is that the way to check/counter it tends to be pretty much the same. I would not however start comparing Terrakion to Breloom (or lucario, or keldeo), they do different things entirely despite sharing a type and don't fight for a teamslot like other things have to.
 
ok i'll make this quick and just put a list of Pokemon to add that I may have or may have not mentioned before that were not put in the viability ranking thread.

Jumpluff --> C-Rank (you can try for D, but I have some reasons for C in around 20 pages back here)
Nidoking --> D-Rank -I am not so sure how large of a niche this thing has, but Sheer Force Scarf Nidoking does solidly against Terrakion, and there has been a successful team or two around it, I might edit it but it was the RMT of intergalactic
Blastoise --> D-Rank -No Ground/Psy weakness against Tenta, making it a solid partner for Toxicroak in rain teams, SUPER niche but it's still there, and has been used somewhat successfully
Walrein --> C-Rank -This thing is the bane of life itself, the terror that unleashes hell amongst the 32 turns of doom, the possibly amazing Pokemon with Tentacool not existing. Regardless, can tear apart teams like RU with solid hail support in Tspikes, although not broken like in RU
Suicune --> C-Rank -Its bulky and it sweeps with the CroCune set. Although it's not as good as it once was, still a decent enough mon. It has an analysis so its proven viable.
Flygon --> D-Rank- Nice little dragon for hail teams that can't afford to run a spinner. It's really really niche but it has been used to success before so it deserves a spot as viable.
Swampert --> D-Rank- I have personally used CB Swampert in the rain and it is surprisngly solid, it can do well as a Tornadus-I partner (or in my case, Agility Moltres)due to how it can use Waterfall to dent Rotom-W switchins and fully switchin to Thunder SpD Rachi and smash. Also does well vs other mons like Mamoswine, and does nice as a emergency bulky safety blanket. It really only fits in one team though, so D is appropriate
Ludicolo --> D-Rank - Has analysis, don't know anything about but a new analysis probably means its viable
 

ShootingStarmie

Bulletproof
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ok i'll make this quick and just put a list of Pokemon to add that I may have or may have not mentioned before that were not put in the viability ranking thread.



Blastoise --> D-Rank -No Ground/Psy weakness against Tenta, making it a solid partner for Toxicroak in rain teams, SUPER niche but it's still there, and has been used somewhat successfully

Just want to develop on this point. I've used Blastoise before on my Rain stall team, and I have to say I'm surprised it isn't D rank already. While Tentecruel does usually out class it, I just want to point out a few things that Blastoise has over Tentecruel that make it D rank worthy.

Phazing - Blastoise can learn both Roar and Dragon Tail, allowing it to phaze. Although not huge, it does allow Blastoise to outclass Tentecruel in some way.

No weakness to Ground - This I think is the biggest point, as not being weak to ground type attacks is huge for a rapid spinner. Blastoise can easily switch into Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and other ground types that all lay down SR. While Tentecruel does have a resistance to key types (Fighting, neutral to Grass, etc), I think having no Ground weakness is more than enough to push Blastoise into D rank.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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The biggest problem that I see with Blastoise is how difficult it would be to fit it on a rain team. Rain Stall teams love Tentacruel because of its resistances, Rapid Spin, and most importantly Toxic Spikes. Other than phazing and spinning, Blastoise brings very little to rain teams compared to Tentacruel, and Tentacruel's Ground and Psychic-type weakness are completely made up for its extremely useful resistances and immunities. That's another thing, Tentacruel is immune to Toxic and it can absorb Toxic Spikes. That's a huge deal for stall teams, because Toxic Spikes are the bane of any stall team even if something has Heal Bell. Another plus is that Tentacruel doesn't have to worry about being stalled out by Toxic, where Blastoise is greatly crippled by it. I guess Blastoise can be useful because it can wrack up a lot of hazard damage late game, but other than phazing, it has very little uses. Tentacruel outclasses Blastoise's job so badly, that I don't even feel like it deserves to be in D-Rank. It's niche is extremely tiny, even for D-rank.
 
Tentacruel outclasses Blastoise's job so badly, that I don't even feel like it deserves to be in D-Rank. It's niche is extremely tiny, even for D-rank.
Take note that in this Rank we have Pokemon like Cofagrigus, who is only really good as a partner for Bliss and on full stall teams (at least typically) to function to a non-outclassed efficiency level. With the banning of Landorus-I, Toxicroak becomes a solid way to deal with a KelTar Core and Blatsoise compliments Toxicroak so easily that it gained a slight boost in niche after the Lando-I ban. It's miniscule, but the niche is still there. IMO anything that is remotely viable and not 100% outclassed needs to be mentioned in D-rank. We have stuff like Togekiss there who don't even have a niche (at least a defined one in the slightest). Blastoise has a small niche that lets it fit in semi-specific archetypes of teams. (Rain teams with Toxicroak, and rain teams with mons that also have issues with the Ground/Psy problems) Also, Blastoise is actually a semi-decent answer to not become setup fodder to a SubDD Gyarados and other setup sweepers that Tentacruel is setup fodder to with Roar, so that's always a plus. It's a retardedly small niche, but it's still there and is at least relevant (unlike say... charizard)

EDIT: How did I suddenly put a stop to all discussions, not to mention the random likes?
 
Not to start another new conversation but we can't just nominate every single bulky water type out there to D-Rank because "rain makes it better"
If we do nominate a bulky water, I'd say Milotic over anything else because it's RestTalk set is honestly the only RestTalk set that can be run anymore because it gets a +50% Def boost while statused so it isn't a sitting duck without a Chesto Berry and can run Lefties instead
Milotic outclasses Suicune in every way except for Calm Mind and Sleep Talking a Calm Mind can actually screw you over, not help
Also saying "x has a OU analysis so it's viable" isn't an argument, a lot of OU analyses for non-OU mons are leftover from BW1 OU (Medicham for example)
I honestly can't say I support Blastoise, Suicune, or Swampert moving up, they may have the smallest niches ever but I don't think it's enough to warrant a D-Rank
Never used Flygon or Nidoking, no opinion but those niches actually seem relevant over others
Walrein is C-Rank for Hail Stall, I'll take that
Ludicolo is another one of those OU analysis =/= OU viable, you pretty much said it yourself, it's from BW1, the analysis says his only niche is manual rain sweeping and that's a god awful idea that will almost always have you about 2 turns behind the opponent, I don't know any good reason to use him in OU so I don't agree there either
 
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Not to start another new conversation but we can't just nominate every single bulky water type out there to D-Rank because "rain makes it better"
If we do nominate a bulky water, I'd say Milotic over anything else because it's RestTalk set is honestly the only RestTalk set that can be run anymore because it gets a +50% Def boost while statused so it isn't a sitting duck without a Chesto Berry and can run Lefties instead
Milotic outclasses Suicune in every way except for Calm Mind and Sleep Talking a Calm Mind can actually screw you over, not help
Also saying "x has a OU analysis so it's viable" isn't an argument, a lot of OU analyses for non-OU mons are leftover from BW1 OU (Medicham for example)
I honestly can't say I support Blastoise, Suicune, or Swampert moving up, they may have the smallest niches ever but I don't think it's enough to warrant a D-Rank
Never used Flygon or Nidoking, no opinion but those niches actually seem relevant over others
Walrein is C-Rank for Hail Stall, I'll take that
Ludicolo is another one of those OU analysis =/= OU viable, you pretty much said it yourself, it's from BW1, the analysis says his only niche is manual rain sweeping and that's a god awful idea that will almost always have you about 2 turns behind the opponent, I don't know any good reason to use him in OU so I don't agree there either

I understand why we can't put every rain boosted bulky water in the viability ranking thread, hence us not putting something random like an Hydration Alomomola, or something random along those lines.

Let's take a look at Miltoic vs Blastoise and see its pros/cons that makes it viable/inviable

Milotic
+RestTalk set can run Lefties well and when statused is a pain to kill, and it can take a couple hits from some pretty powerful Pokemon when statused/rested.
+Can pHaze -- unlike opposing water Tentacruel who can stop random setup from some stuff like SD Garchomp who think they can setup on you.
+Has the "Defensive" role better than Blastoise thanks to its bulk and Marvel Scale, without having the weaknesses of Tentacruel.
+Lack of Ground/Psy weaknesses of Tentacruel
-Doesn't really offer much utility outside of pHazing and being annoying
-Jellicent can do 60% of what it does +Spinblock and burn.
-Setup bait to Sub+setup sweepers like SubSD Garchomp and SubDD Gyarados since Milotic doesn't have Roar (it has Dtail)
-One-dimensional set
Blastoise
+Rapid Spin (this is probably the most important thing, lets it fight from the overshadowing of Jellicent)
+Can pHaze Sub+setup sweepers seperating it from Tentacruel (the main spinner)
+Rain Dish+Leftovers gives it some nice recovery to not rely on RestTalk
+Bulky, not as bulky as Milotic but still is pretty bulky
+Lack of Ground/Psy weaknesses of Tentacruel
-Loses out in natural bulk vs Milotic
-Recovery is reliant on Rain Dish+Lefties
-One-dimensional set
-Outside of pHazing, somewhat a sitting duck without anything to spin.
-Jellicent can do 50% of what it does + Spinblock and burn)

Also one thing I gotta say going for both of them against Jellicent is the lack of susceptibility to Pursuit. Blastoise' main thing going for him is Rapid Spin, which only really helps if you have a problem with hazards + Toxicroak in rain. The niche is really really small, but it's still there and its practicalities are only what I previously said, but something like Milotic doesn't really offer much utility outside of natural bulk, and is even harder to fit in teams in comparison to Blastoise(If i didn't want spin, i'd run Jelli).

In the case of Swampert, it isn't meant to be a bulky water; rather, it is meant to be a bulky choice band wallbreaker which opens holes in a rain team for a mon like Tornadus-I to sweep. A lot of Pokemon i'm mentioning are rather niche, but the niche is existent and should at least be put in D-Rank (once again, Togekiss is there cmon)

I guess I was kinda sounding a bit off when saying "X has an analysis so its viable", and I understand those are the reasons for Medicham being unviable (as you said). But if you check the updates on C&C for the Pokemon i mentioned (Ludicolo/Suicune), you can actually see that these are BW2 analysis; and somewhat recent ones at that. Suicune has more competition with Keldeo then it does with Milotic, and that CroCune is still pretty good. It's viable and has been used on a couple of my ladder teams (ik ladder isn't the greatest achievements, but it was successful there meaning it was at least somewhat successful) Unless PEMN applies to Pokemon to a large degree, I don't understand how Suicune can not be put as viable. Ludicolo on the other hand is something i really don't know much about so anyone else can take the wheel there.

On a side note: a SmashPassed Nidoking is the scariest thing you will see in your whole damn life.
EDIT: Yeah i'll add that lack of recovery part. but then again, Rain dish+Lefties and tenta uses the same thing, but comparing to Jellicent yeah i get it
 
Blastoise seems fine to me, it was more of the CroCune set I don't agree with, I understand what it has over Jellicent
Speaking of Jellicent, I'd like to nominate it to move up to A+, or even S Rank if it seems reasonable.
Jellicent is one of two Ghost types in OU, the other one being Gengar. Because of this, Jellicent is almost a given on any team that would like to spinblock. Jellicent is also the premier wall in OU as it can check/counter many of the Water and Fighting types running around OU, due to being immune to both types. It can also check Scizor and Tyranitar to an extent (you have to speed creep and hope you get lucky with scald or run WoW) and has the capability to run a variety of moves while always maintaining its usefulness. It can choose from Scald/Toxic/Recover/WoW/Shadow Ball/Ice Beam/Taunt/Energy Ball, with every move helping you check something your team otherwise couldn't effectively. Jellicent has overall average attacking stats, but the coverage it has allows it to stop something it otherwise couldn't, even being able to run a Specs set if you wanted to (it's on-site, look at it, I'm not saying its the best set ever but those calcs are mildly impressive). Jellicent is also an overall fantastic check to opposing utility/wall Pokemon on the other team, giving your sweepers a better chance to not have their sweep stopped. I'm sure everyone's used Jellicent at least once and can agree on it's effectiveness, and I believe it's enough to warrant A+ or S rank.

And also speaking of the other ghost type, I believe Gengar should be moved down half a step to B+ rank. Gengar has massive attacking stats, but sadly is extremely frail and must rely on Substitute to get something done. Gengar does abuse the Sub very well, being able to use SubDisable or SubSplit, but once the sub is broken Gengar has trouble staying alive, because almost any physical move will OHKO it after rocks and a Substitute. It's still a fantastic mon, but I don't think it belongs in A rank with the rest of everything in there.
 
Once gengar gets behind a sub you better hope that you can outpredict it or else youre getting wrecked. Once the sub has been broken he can just switch out and come back later with NO PROBLEMS because he doenst care about hazards at all. Gengar is a true A-Rank threat that puts a huge pressure on pretty much the entire metagame. Unresisted coverage, 130 sp atk, a bunch of immunities that compensate for its frailty and a sick movepool that allows it to mess up with anything that tries to stop it. Its truly a force to be reckoned and should not drop at all.
 
Any tried Venomoth? I think it deserves at least C-Rank, since it gets amazing coverage with Tinted Lens, its counters are eating Sleep Powder, and it can Baton Pass away at the first sign of danger.
 

ShootingStarmie

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I've used Gengar for nearly 2 years in OU, and imo it is incredible. There's no way Gengar should be B+ rank. Gengar is a major block to choiced Pokemon, as it disable's the move that your opponent is locked into, forces the switch, and repeats the cycle. Gengar is also a staple on HO teams, as it's the best offensive spin blocker in OU. It takes out the majority of rapid spinners with Thunder / Destiny Bond / Shadow Ball / Taunt (or something along those lines), and it will always be picked over Jellicent as a Spin Blocker in HO.

There probably are many more reasons, but that's all I'll say for now.
 

alexwolf

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And also speaking of the other ghost type, I believe Gengar should be moved down half a step to B+ rank. Gengar has massive attacking stats, but sadly is extremely frail and must rely on Substitute to get something done. Gengar does abuse the Sub very well, being able to use SubDisable or SubSplit, but once the sub is broken Gengar has trouble staying alive, because almost any physical move will OHKO it after rocks and a Substitute. It's still a fantastic mon, but I don't think it belongs in A rank with the rest of everything in there.
Gengar is fine where it is. Best offensive spinblocker and a great offensive Pokemon in general are what he has going for it, and he is good at both. He is also versatile enough to get rid of counters with small moveset changes, which just adds to the level of danger Gengar poses to any team. For example, while usually SpD Jirachi and SpD Hippo wall Gengar and are some of its best counters, WoW leaves them crippled for the rest of the game and makes them much easier to wear down. Gengar can fit WoW on either a SubWisp set or on all out attacking set, as with perfect neutral coverage with just two moves, he has plenty of slots to use unconventional moves. Taunt is in the same boat and completely shuts down the blobs, as well as Hippowdon, which once again, are some of the best answers to Gengar. Some other semi-rare moves that help Gengar get past usual checks and counters and are effective are Destinty Bond and Trick (the latter obviously on a Choice set). While Gengar is not the strongest Pokemon around, it deserves its ranking thanks to the utility it brings to a team, mainly important immunities/resistances and spinblocking ability, its good neutral coverage which makes it hard to outright wall, great Speed, and lastly good versatility.
 
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