the rise of cancel culture

jrp

Es hora de que veas mi forma verdadera!
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misplaced internet mobs are nothing new, remember the reddit investigators that started blaming innocent people for the boston bombing?

modern people are fucking stupid and have the attention span of about 4 seconds, which lets them get riled up about shit without bothering to look into the background of anything

it happens to everyone, that pizzagate idiocy was the same thing, an outrage mob that was certain it knew what it was talking about, just like that bulshit with the chipotle manager. The bonus part with the chipotle manager was that if anyone had bothered to do the amount of research that clicking "view more tweets" can yield, they would have figured out these guys were worthless degenerates before the story even took off
 
I honest to god had no idea that people genuinely disliked Pewdiepie because they thought he was a racist. I guess you learn something new every day.
I don't think Pewdiepie is racist, in fact, I get more of a nihilistic "nothing matters so I can do anything as long as its funny" vibe from him. Reactionaries have the left on the backfoot in comedy at the moment, so he plays into that. Inside his mind I don't think he thinks about these things with any level of seriousness (in contrast Jontron was seriously talking about white genocide).

Again though, I don't care about what either of their thoughts between their ears are, I care about what behavior and messages they are propagating. When Pewds is suggesting to millions of people people to watch and read E;R and Stonetoss, who are by all measures actually fucking Nazis, we have an issue, you have a responsibility to be not that much of a dumbass when you have almost almost 100 million subscribers.
 
Coming from the DIY / Independent Music Scene I used to see Cancel / Callout culture on a regular basis.

I mentioned it recently on reddit in a post about some Comedian getting boo'd on Conan for basically speaking the his own opinion on a serious matter.

From my experience, the moment I became a name in the Philadelphia music scene I was questioned. My Sexuality, My Orientation, My "Intentions." There was a specific circle of students in the Temple House show scene who would constantly question my project (I was running a music based non-profit) and would straight up accuse me of being a "Nazi" / "Alt-Right" Infiltrator in the scene. None of this was true, on top of the "He's a Cis-White Male scamming people in the scene." Which was also not true and I was lucky enough to have a long trail of bands and artist I had worked with being very vocal about the services we provided (Reviews, Filmed Sessions, and Professional Quality Show Photography) were in fact free.

I had to suffer through accusations and rumors and speculation about my "intentions" for about two years. "Why would anyone do this for free?" and "Another Cis-White Het-Male trying to take control of a scene that isn't his!" I'm white, sure, but I don't identify as male. It was discouraging seeing people randomly hate me because someone chasing clout and virtue signalling decided to question me for literally helping people. I was threatened with violence at some points, and after coming out in a few groups about not being straight, not identifying as male, and being Jewish myself, I got hate from people for "identity politics" claiming I was using my heritage and pronouns to be "excused of examination".

I've left the DIY music scene, and it's been so god damn refreshing to not see people replying on my Facebook threads in groups posting dumb shit like "Aren't you a Nazi?" and "Hooray, another White Male taking up space in the scene!
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Wow another ridiculous drag race mob event that popped into my head today is when Asia O'hara used real butterflies in one of her performances, and the fan base flipped the fuck out.

There's a 0% chance that butterfly rights ever crossed their minds before (or after) the drama, but they were truly outraged and thought her entire career should be cancelled for animal cruelty. And this is someone who was well-respected and liked as a good role model until that moment.

Baffling.
 

EV

cake
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Wow another ridiculous drag race mob event that popped into my head today is when Asia O'hara used real butterflies in one of her performances, and the fan base flipped the fuck out.

There's a 0% chance that butterfly rights ever crossed their minds before (or after) the drama, but they were truly outraged and thought her entire career should be cancelled for animal cruelty. And this is someone who was well-respected and liked as a good role model until that moment.

Baffling.
She exploited animals for a musical performance. It was a BM, for which she deeply apologized and then volunteered her time with the ASPCA to rectify. I can't recall any strong movement to cancel her, though, and she ended up hosting episodes of Fashion Photo Ruview with Cameron Michaels, so it's not like WOW dropped her over it.

But, uh, 0%? Animal rights, even those of little butterflies, crossed my mind, albeit I wasn't interested in her losing her career over it. I think she handled the situation well.

If you want to talk about Drag Race mobs, let's talk about RuPaul himself. The mob always trynna cancel his ass.
 

Always!

This garden isn't for you people.
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I have a deep disdain for cancel culture, but this is mostly because I have a seething hatred for the spineless bugmen who perpetuate it mindlessly. Cancel culture has a very bad propensity to further radicalize at-risk groups (usually straight cisgender white males) because when it goes out of control, such as in the examples posted, there is often little-to-no attempt by the mob to right their wrongs. It's very easy to pick up a pitchfork and join the mass like a zombie because it's "in", and then proceed to vanish when it turns out you were wrong in your assessment. This unjustified rage can then only be interpreted as an example of the wild, uncontrollable mob of the "SJWs", and furthers the idea that they are trying to ruin the lives of anyone who disagrees with them politically or morally. The fact that no reparations are made to parties that have been unfairly maligned is what makes this fear somewhat justified in my opinion.

Digging up tweets from years ago is relatively meaningless if the poster currently disavows the behavior and/or has apologized for it since then. I don't really know what more there is to say there. Even then, trying to completely ruin someone's life via Internet lynching because of a current comment/opinion seems very extreme and a disproportionate punishment.

When it comes down to legal issues like the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard case, there simply should not exist a public court of opinion at all, so long as the verdict is not set in stone. That case is a relatively good example of why. The Emma Sulkowicz ("Mattress Girl") case is another great example.

I think the harms of cancel culture outweigh its benefits, so long as we give power to idiots on the Internet who can only inflame political and social tensions because they think it's cool to go overboard.
 
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Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
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Digging up tweets from years ago is relatively meaningless if the poster currently disavows the behavior and/or has apologized for it since then. I don't really know what more there is to say there. Even then, trying to completely ruin someone's life via Internet lynching because of a current comment/opinion seems very extreme and a disproportionate punishment.

When it comes down to legal issues like the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard case, there simply should not exist a public court of opinion at all, so long as the verdict is not set in stone. That case is a relatively good example of why. The Emma Sulkowicz ("Mattress Girl") case is another great example.
I agree with the first part of your post, but I don't think applying this last half to all the examples posted above is very helpful, they're really quite different cases. For example, in some of them it's not really clear if they stopped the supposedly problematic behavior (different than disavowing it, and also different from apologizing), and in most of them it's not clear how the 'excesses' (if you will) of the twitter mob ruined someones life. Even though I agree these mobs are most irksome, and I grant they can even contribute to 'radicalization' of white men, which is surely life ruining in and of itself, I'm not convinced that it's the case that many of these peoples' lives are ruined by their own accounts, and have actually not noticed any evidence of this in the accounts presented in examples posted in this thread. Calling it 'lynching by internet' seems out of proportion with what actually takes place. There will always be jealous people, and paranoias to play on to sell content/ads, and piles of dumb people. Personally I don't know what to do about it other than try not to read the comments section.

I also don't understand what it means to 'not have a public court of opinion exist', and why it is relevant to the Sulkowicz case which seems a fairly straightforward case to me.
 
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Cancel culture is inherent to the schizophrenic nature of the politically correct liberal democracatic culture we live in today. Liberalism is founded on three basic principles, and one of those was liberty (self-determination, freedom of speech etc), the other two values aren't really applicable here, but they are consent of the governed (democratic process) and legal equality (that is to say, everyone get's a fair shot in the judicial system). Due to the rise of SJWs*, identity politics and the strange resurgence of the far right, we [s o c i e t y] had to make a choice between free speech being for everyone, or free speech being for everyone as long as it wasn't considered to be offensive or oppressive. The latter directly opposes the liberal democratic value of liberty, because one party will always be silenced (even if it is considered to be for the greater good), whereas the former tends to slide to the right, as all capitalist liberal democracies will inevetably do overtime, because the right values the economy instead of society.

Another result, possibly unintended or intended--difficult to say, is that the basis of innocent until proven guilty has been removed: public opinion is not a court of law, it is a mob. One example off the top of my head is Aziz Ansari. He was falsely accused of sexual harrasment on a date because he misread signals, but by all accounts, even the accusers, he did not continue to press the envelope once it was made more clear that those were not her intentions. However, the smear campaign already began, and as it was peak #metoo many people already formed their opinions. Luckily, a larger proportion of people came to his defense saying, "hold on, that's not what happened here" but just as easily it could have gone the other way. Additionally, there is a rise of newer, more vague terms, sexual harrassment & sexual abuse have all been rolled up into "sexual misconduct" and while harrassment and abuse are both abhorrent, but they are not equals. This serves to both water down and at the same time expand the meaning of what the accusation is.

Overall, I think 'cancel culture' is unhealthy, because it has removed nuance from any situation and is effectively mob rule. Some people, such as Tommy Robinson (EDL, known racist), David Duke (ex-KKK), and other Fascists (or "Alt-Right" as they've been re-branded) should at best be given a limited platform, since Twitter, Facebook, etc are private companies and can choose what they do/don't want on their platform, but that's for those companies to decide based on their values. Do they value the clicks and revenue that controversial posts make, or do want to not give fascists and racists a platform to share their ideology.

*I believe in social justice, but I don't think it is done by mob rule, it should be done through activisim, protest, social outreach and other more effective means. When you brigade, you create more enemies, when you do good, you create more allies.
 

Theorymon

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In the case of what people call cancel culture, I think taking every example of it on a case-by-case basis is very important. I find some of the attempts to paint cancel culture as a topic with an easy to define opinion on every case, or being the cause of poorly-defined, loosely affilated groups such as "Social Justice Warriors" (I actually think the term SJW in general is damn near useless, if not harmful to online discourse, but I digress, that may be a topic for a different thread) to be especially strange due to the wide variety of topics in this subject.

So I want to focus on the whole mob based mentality here. Obviouslly, the concept of rallying people together for a cause is a pretty old topic in human history. Cancel culutre is a pretty similar thing, just amplified to previously unseen degrees because of how connected we are as a species today.

One of the results of this amplification of opinions that I'm quite fond of is that it's given a voice to many groups of people who have historically, been ignored. An obvious example of this is the #MeToo movement, which as I'm sure most of you are aware of, has had pretty profound effects on both online discussions, views on the conduct of men, and even how people present themselves publically. #MeToo was a recokoning of sorts, bringing down some pretty popular public figures, and not just ones with a ton of power such as Weinstien. In fact, #MeToo was sorta like a bunch of cancel culture movements happening at once really!

The effects of these large cancel culture movements can have effects beyond blasting celebreties. To use an example I personallty witnessed: I used to frequent a popular video game forum called NeoGAF. As some of you know, that entire site pratically collapsed due to the #MeToo movement. To make a long story short, the owner of the website was not only found to have damn near sexually assaulted someone, but had also been engaged in the cover-up of a former moderater engaged in pedophillia. To a lot of us on that site, this was all pretty shocking news, made even worse that there were signs of this all over that we basically missed! It was one of those situations that forced me to revaluate when I should look at certain posts as just "harmless shitposting" and "weird, bad opinions", or the sign that something troubling is brewing under the surface!

This thought about revaluation brings me up to another point: In our increasingly connected culture, it's truer than ever that words, thoughts, and opinions have more consequences then they ever had before! Again, I don't think this is a bad thing at all. I do find it good that it's harder to brush disturbing qualities such as racism under the rug so to speak. I like that it discourages hero-worship, and can even encourage some people to think critically about the people and things they love.

This is a double-edged sword however, illustrated pretty well by the whole James Gun incident with Guardians of the Galaxy. As I'm sure many of you Marvel nerds know (probably better than me, I haven't watched a film since the first Avengers rofl), Disney fired James Gun due to backlash about a pretty edgy pedophilla joke he made a long time ago. As some of you have brought up, people make mistakes, some more severe than others, and theres times where people realize they made a serious mistake in the past, and own up to it! There's plenty of times where internet mobs will form regardless of wether or not a person has acknowledged and owned up to their mistake, and that's never a good thing! It often takes a while for these storms to settle so clearer heads can prevail. In the case of James Gun, he ended up getting rehired by Disney, so he had a happy ending, but not everyone is lucky enough to have that luxary.

To once again move away from the celebrity angle, I understand that many people on the internet lament that the rise of cancel culture could directly impact their ability to engage in internet discourse, for fear of getting struck by an internet mob. Certainly a reasonable worry, and a good reason to be much more careful when expressing things than in the past! While this isn't always a good thing (even if it can curbstomp many troubling qualiites), I do think the change in internet discourse makes for a pretty good excuse to do plenty of regular self-reflecting. At least personally, I've found that listening to what others have to say about their issues in life, and looking into what they say, have made me realize that my opinions are more malleble than I previously thought!

To be clear, while a majority of this post is me arguing that cancel culture is not an inherently bad thing, that doens't excuse its consequences either. Sometimes, you'll get people ralleying around accusations that are frankly, total bullshit hot air. It could be people getting pissed off at an ancient statement that the "defendent" has long since disowned, it could be a simple misunderstanding, or it could be based around something that has less crediability than the Flat Earth Society! This goes back to talking about how the internet and social media amplifies movements: the downside is that indiviuals are much more likely to get targted, not just large groups, and the basis could just be a bad case of telephone tag. And yes, while I mentioned that there are some positives for critical thinking, the opposite is true too: plenty of people are more than willing to bandwagon over the latest hot, trendy "outrage", putting no thought into the reasons for the outrage (hell, I've been guilty of this in the past too!). Some people are really always looking for a shallow reason to get angry.

Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure there are any good, currently feasible solutions for the times counter culture makes catestrophic misfires, especially when I'm under the impression that the internet being fairly young, but radical change in our lives is leading to some serious growing pains in our species socilization behavior.

Regardless, I don't think generalizing every ocourance of counter culture in a specfic category is a wise idea. Generally, when exposed to the latest "yo fuck this guy" moment, I think the best thing you can do is look into whats happening, and why people are calling for someone or something's head on a platter. Not only will you be more informed about the situation, but you may just learn something about yourself that you may not expect!
 
I haven’t read the news or anything other than memes and ancient forums for probably almost a year now. I haven’t turned on the television since 2014, so I’m probably the most under the rock person in existence. I like to think I do this just to avoid getting in on all the outrage action, because tbh it’s fun in a weird, twisted way to get angry on the internet, and I’m scared that I’ll just get sucked into the latest twitter group-mentality fuelled drunken bar fight. I have no smartphone, and basically the only way I communicate with the outside world is through here, irc and meme subreddits.

who wants to join me to move into a log cabin in the Alaskan wilderness?
 
Nobody was saying racist shit with impunity before call-out culture.
...
I mean people were dropping the N bomb left and right before callout culture on internet forums and surprise surprise there was no alt right present and we were getting more peaceful and tolerant as a society.
a bit late but hey this is pretty applicable to this website huh?

People have been saying racist, homophobic, or just overall offensive things in this community (specifically tournaments) without consequence for years and years now. Very rarely is anyone ever properly called out for it, and even rarer is anyone ever dealt with. Meanwhile a large portion of this community is still far from "getting more peaceful and tolerant". In fact, where in the fucking world do you observe where the people were getting more peaceful and tolerant cause I ain't seen it.
 

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