The rise of china

GatoDelFuego

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let's just pretend that the US isn't behind the protests in Hong Kong.
I'm sorry that you believe this. Have you spoken to people from ukraine or hong Kong? They aren't paid shills. I'm not going to say what I think is right for these countries, but I am going to tell you what people have said. The people of ukraine are upset that Russia has invaded their country. The people of hong kong are upset of China's encroachment of freedoms guaranteed by their special arrangement (for example, the right to democratic elections, not picking from Chinese candidates). To think anything but this is the truth is just accepting propaganda. That's facts.

At the end of the day, at least, China and Russia doesn't make wars just to create more and more instability around the world.
assuming that you think every war started by the usa in other counties is just to "create instability", for fun...what is Soviet Afghanistan, Russian action in Syria, crimea, Soviet invasion of Georgia, Chinese border skirmishes with Vietnam?

, I wouldn't use the term "recolonizing" here buddy. They have been inverting and developing Africa after centuries of western exploiation of their natural resources. The US and Europe didn't bring anything but misery and poverty there
to believe that China is a force for good in Africa while everybody else is evil is extremely naieve.


Your country is sponsored by China and Russia. Naturally your views are influenced by this. Recognize your own propaganda. I'm an American and I'm not here to defend usa actions in the middle east. I accept that us paranoia over an emerging superpower is due to the fear of losing the top spot in the pecking order. But your points are just wrong. Given China's current actions, we SHOULD fear them as "ruler"
 
I'm sorry that you believe this. Have you spoken to people from ukraine or hong Kong? They aren't paid shills. I'm not going to say what I think is right for these countries, but I am going to tell you what people have said. The people of ukraine are upset that Russia has invaded their country. The people of hong kong are upset of China's encroachment of freedoms guaranteed by their special arrangement (for example, the right to democratic elections, not picking from Chinese candidates). To think anything but this is the truth is just accepting propaganda. That's facts.

assuming that you think every war started by the usa in other counties is just to "create instability", for fun...what is Soviet Afghanistan, Russian action in Syria, crimea, Soviet invasion of Georgia, Chinese border skirmishes with Vietnam?

to believe that China is a force for good in Africa while everybody else is evil is extremely naieve.


Your country is sponsored by China and Russia. Naturally your views are influenced by this. Recognize your own propaganda. I'm an American and I'm not here to defend usa actions in the middle east. I accept that us paranoia over an emerging superpower is due to the fear of losing the top spot in the pecking order. But your points are just wrong. Given China's current actions, we SHOULD fear them as "ruler"
Sorry but at least I don't back up my arguments based on idiotic propaganda by western media.

Considering that in a war no one wins I guess the US only does that for fun. They also make them just to benefit from the natural resources from the countries and this starts to create even more instability. Just look at Europe, the inmmigration crisis in which they're going throught it's their fault as US allies, they all participated in creating instability in Libya, isn't that obvious or is it hard enough to think off?.

Implying that every economic and diplomatic relations are based on sponsors. It's funny to see how people from the States thinks about our country, doesn't surprise me considering the amount of idiotic propaganda going on there. Why wouldn't you mention the current sanctions made by the US against us, these sanctions have been killing a lot of people here, oh wait, it's easy for you since you're not the one living here. If I was you, I wouldn't even talk about the situation when you're not even informed or have even been here before buddy.

Also: to believe that China is a force for good in Africa while everybody else is evil is extremely naieve.

Of course, let's pretend that China is also evil and are colonizing and are making slavery as normal as the western countries did when they were there. What I do know is that the development that Africa has achieved didn't happen when they were a colony. They didn't achieved anything other than misery and poverty when the western countries were there exploiting their natural resources. Oh I must be extremely naieve enough to think that...
 
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earl

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Sorry but at least I don't back up my arguments based on idiotic propaganda by western media.

Considering that in a war no one wins I guess the US only does that for fun. They also make them just to benefit from the natural resources from the countries and this starts to create even more instability. Just look at Europe, the inmmigration crisis in which they're going throught it's their fault as US allies, they all participated in creating instability in Libya, isn't that obvious or is it hard enough to think off?.

Implying that every economic and diplomatic relations are based on sponsors. It's funny to see how people from the States thinks about our country, doesn't surprise me considering the amount of idiotic propaganda going on there. Why wouldn't you mention the current sanctions made by the US against us, these sanctions have been killing a lot of people here, oh wait, it's easy for you since you're not the one living here. If I was you, I wouldn't even talk about the situation when you're not even informed or have even been here before buddy.
You didn’t back up your arguments with anything chief. You can’t say Hong Kong protestors are payed shills without providing evidence.
 

GatoDelFuego

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Considering that in a war no one wins I guess the US only does that for fun. They also make them just to benefit from the natural resources from the countries and this starts to create even more instability. Just look at Europe, the inmmigration crisis in which they're going throught it's their fault as US allies, they all participated in creating instability in Libya, isn't that obvious or is it hard enough to think off?
You managed to miss my point entirely. IF we take YOUR position that the us starts these pointless wars, I've given you examples of Russia and China doing the exact same.

If I was you, I wouldn't even talk about the situation when you're not even informed or have even been here before buddy.
Notice how I said 0 things about your country except that it accepts aid from Russia and China. The news you hear about these countries will be spun.

Of course, let's pretend that China is also evil and are colonizing and are making slavery as normal as the western countries did when they were there. What I do know is that the development that Africa has achieved didn't happen when they were a colony. They didn't achieved anything other than misery and poverty when the western countries were there exploiting their natural resources. Oh I must be extremely naieve enough to think that...
You can see an African viewpoint of this here: https://www.panafricanalliance.com/china-africa-colonialism/
 
Sorry but at least I don't back up my arguments based on idiotic propaganda by western media.

Considering that in a war no one wins I guess the US only does that for fun. They also make them just to benefit from the natural resources from the countries and this starts to create even more instability. Just look at Europe, the inmmigration crisis in which they're going throught it's their fault as US allies, they all participated in creating instability in Libya, isn't that obvious or is it hard enough to think off?.

Implying that every economic and diplomatic relations are based on sponsors. It's funny to see how people from the States thinks about our country, doesn't surprise me considering the amount of idiotic propaganda going on there. Why wouldn't you mention the current sanctions made by the US against us, these sanctions have been killing a lot of people here, oh wait, it's easy for you since you're not the one living here. If I was you, I wouldn't even talk about the situation when you're not even informed or have even been here before buddy.

Also: to believe that China is a force for good in Africa while everybody else is evil is extremely naieve.

Of course, let's pretend that China is also evil and are colonizing and are making slavery as normal as the western countries did when they were there. What I do know is that the development that Africa has achieved didn't happen when they were a colony. They didn't achieved anything other than misery and poverty when the western countries were there exploiting their natural resources. Oh I must be extremely naieve enough to think that...
I'm going to cut to the chase of what you're trying to say in this thread and ignore the off-topic stuff - I disagree with your opinion that this US is responsible for the situation in Hong Kong because I haven't seen any evidence detailing so. You seem very sure of yourself so could you please help me out and post some sources so I can become better informed on the topic. It may be really obvious to you but I'm really stupid so if you can explain it to me I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Could you also start a new thread to discuss Venezuela? I'm very interested in hearing your perspective (eg what's it like to live in venezuela, how things are doing now, and so on) on that topic because you seem to have first hand experience so I'd love to hear more.

Looking forward to having you teach me!!!
 
Call me a filthy capitalist pig but I'm not going to accept the idea that human rights should take a backseat to the political interests of a dominant party. I know the "but Stalin" argument is as tired and worn out as Godwin's Law at this point, but how is that any different than the attitude that caused the atrocities and famines that plagued the Soviet Union? I genuinely want to know what makes you think China will be any different, or are such atrocities an acceptable price for the survival of the country in your eyes? Would you feel the same if it was you or your family who were to be victims of them?

Also the argument that "America sucks, so it's okay that China also sucks" is a shitty tu quoque argument that holds no water whatsoever. We shouldn't have to pick between two extremes when both of them are fucking awful.
 
You managed to miss my point entirely. IF we take YOUR position that the us starts these pointless wars, I've given you examples of Russia and China doing the exact same.

Notice how I said 0 things about your country except that it accepts aid from Russia and China. The news you hear about these countries will be spun.


You can see an African viewpoint of this here: https://www.panafricanalliance.com/china-africa-colonialism/
You just back it up by mentioning conflicts that have had their time already and as far as I know Russia and China haven't created, participated or even instigated conflicts lately. That has been the work of the US for a while now. The arrogance and ignorance doesn't allow the US to see that we are not in time for senseless wars, there are many other problems to attend. Meanwhile they just decide to go for a commercial war against China, increase sanctions to Russia, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and even get to finance terrorist groups in the case of Syria just because they want to do so.

Your country is sponsored by China and Russia. Naturally your views are influenced by this. Recognize your own propaganda.

What's the point saying that my country gets aid from Russia and China? Is there a problem with that? There's something called international commerce, which is something the US economic sanctions can't stop for Venezuela just because they say so. There's a lot of people in here who doesn't want to be affected by the sanctions, that's why Russia and China are the ones providing us with Medicines, Food and so on. The US doesn't do anything here besides applying economic sanctions in which thousands of people get affected everyday no matter what their social class is. That's why we take the US as a joke when they ever talk about human rights, if they truly care about us then at least get rid of the sanctions, it's as easy as that. You even come to the point of arrogance where you just said that my views are influenced because of Russia and China's help and take it as "propaganda", that's truly sad considering that I am a Venezuelan who still lives in the country and knows what's going on. At least, show a little of respect for the people and famillies who live here and have been hurt just because the US wants to invade us or just don't get into the topic, you seem to not be informed not only in this matter but in many others.

I won't get into the Pan-Africanism movement thing. There are several african people who don't think the same, I'd rather talk to those who have got a job from a China company, who have education, who have something to eat and whose life has drastically change because of China's help for development in the continent. That's something the western countries haven't done yet and didn't even get to make when Africa was colonized by them. They just don't want Africa to gain influence thanks to these countries who are in fact helping them to improve their economic situation, period.

Here's one evidence about the US behind the Hong Kong protest. I will not get into the protests topic anymore because it's evident the influence that the US has on them. I just wanted to share my point of view as many of you did, which is the purpose of this thread. Hope you guys take a good read to it as I did. I'll also quote McCain from the CRG article: “A year ago, Ben-Ali and Gaddafi were not in power. Assad won’t be in power this time next year. This Arab Spring is a virus that will attack Moscow and Beijing.”

I'll end my post by recapitulating what I said before. Many of the people who protest have weapons, which don't mind using against those who disagree with what they're doing, they're nothing but vandals and should be treated as such. It's ok if they disagree with the central and region government, it's ok for them to protest, but what's not right is to hold violent protests that don't lead anywhere and whose only purpose is to vandalize and kill people in order to justify Hong Kong's independence.

I'm going to cut to the chase of what you're trying to say in this thread and ignore the off-topic stuff - I disagree with your opinion that this US is responsible for the situation in Hong Kong because I haven't seen any evidence detailing so. You seem very sure of yourself so could you please help me out and post some sources so I can become better informed on the topic. It may be really obvious to you but I'm really stupid so if you can explain it to me I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Could you also start a new thread to discuss Venezuela? I'm very interested in hearing your perspective (eg what's it like to live in venezuela, how things are doing now, and so on) on that topic because you seem to have first hand experience so I'd love to hear more.

Looking forward to having you teach me!!!
Hi. It surprises me that there's people interested on the situation in Venezuela, it's not an easy topic to be discussing because it's very complex. I could make a thread for that in the future but I don't think that's the best option here so I'll see if I can post something in this thread once I get the time to do so.

"No u" is not a response. Claims require sources. I'll give you an example of evidence:

Not sure if you're from the US but I've seen worse things happening in there. I get the whole point of the video since it's just propaganda to intesify Hong Kong's protests. I'll leave something from the CRG, which is an article I mentioned above.

The very concept of the United States “promoting democracy” is scandalous when considering it is embroiled in an invasive global surveillance scandal, guilty of persecuting one unpopular war after another around the planet against the will of its own people and based on verified lies, and brutalizing and abusing its own citizens at home with militarized police cracking down on civilians in towns like Ferguson, Missouri – making China’s police actions against “Occupy Central” protesters pale in comparison. “Promoting democracy” is clearly cover for simply expanding its hegemonic agenda far beyond its borders and at the expense of national sovereignty for all subjected to it, including Americans themselves.

Had to mark important words in red so you can actually read and understand, thank me later. You guys can also check an article about our so called interim president Juan Guaido and there's also Joshua Wong, someone whose intentions are good enough to be considered one of the selfie-generations as is this Juan Guaido guy here in Venezuela. Wouldn't even surprise me if someone gets to back these two guys so let's pretend both of them undoubtedly are pro democracy leaders! (lol)
 
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It doesn't matter. China already won. They will be the superpower and there's nothing that other countries can do. Sure, USA can try being on offense, but ultimately China seized the means of production from capitalist societies. Learn Chinese to secure a higher position in the future Chinese colony now.

The question to confront is how should we deal with the near-certain invasions that will occur. Personally, I'd prefer if the western countries simply voted in Communist Party of China as their leaders to minimize the bloodshed for all sides.
 

Asek

Banned deucer.
It doesn't matter. China already won. They will be the superpower and there's nothing that other countries can do. Sure, USA can try being on offense, but ultimately China seized the means of production from capitalist societies. Learn Chinese to secure a higher position in the future Chinese colony now.

The question to confront is how should we deal with the near-certain invasions that will occur. Personally, I'd prefer if the western countries simply voted in Communist Party of China as their leaders to minimize the bloodshed for all sides.
settle down
 

Surgo

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I actually know someone in real life who, in the 90s, was kidnapped by the Chinese government and had an abortion forced on them because of One Child policy. This is after the policy supposedly went away.

China is a horrible, fascist state in every sense of the word. I'm embarrassed to admit that I still purchased products from there and admired places like Shenzhen in spite of this, under the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" idea. Well, no more. I think what's happening in Hong Kong finally woke me up.
 

GatoDelFuego

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You just back it up by mentioning conflicts that have had their time already and as far as I know Russia and China haven't created, participated or even instigated conflicts lately.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation wherein russian paratroopers stormed the Ukrainian government buildings


What's the point saying that my country gets aid from Russia and China? Is there a problem with that?
No, and notice how I didn't say there was anything wrong with this. Except that you should recognize that news on China's activities will be heavily spun. Yes, hearing and believing that China's actions in Africa are solely benevolent is propaganda. Hearing and believing that hong Kong's protestors are only violent revolutionaries sponsored by the usa is propaganda.
won't get into the Pan-Africanism movement thing. There are several african people who don't think the same, I'd rather talk to those who have got a job from a China company,
perhaps you should have read the article where it describes how the projects China is investing in create jobs for China, not Africa. I'm not arguing that the West was benevolent in Africa. I'm simply telling you that China's actions are not different.

Not sure if you're from the US but I've seen worse things happening in there. I get the whole point of the video
This is not relevant to what is happening, in HongKong
Here's one evidence about the US behind the Hong Kong protest. I will not get into the protests topic anymore because it's evident the influence that the US has on them.
Notice that this is about one organisation, occupy central, who was one of many participants in the umbrella movement of 2014. This is 2019. The motivations behind the protests are different, but related. The 2019 protests began when China passed a bill that allowed anyone arrested in hong Kong to be transferred to China for trial.

I'll end my post by recapitulating what I said before. Many of the people who protest have weapons, which don't mind using against those who disagree with what they're doing, they're nothing but vandals and should be treated as such. It's ok if they disagree with the central and region government, it's ok for them to protest, but what's not right is to hold violent protests that don't lead anywhere and whose only purpose is to vandalize and kill people in order to justify Hong Kong's independence.
Is it ok that the Chinese government kidnapps and disappears people who disagree with them? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances should the citizens of hong kong, who were promised free election, free press, free assembly, by China in the 1997 handover, just sit back and allow China to dictate their terms and violate this agreement?



If all you're going to do is parrot Chinese news and say stuff like
I will not get into the protests topic anymore because it's evident the influence that the US has on them.
then stop posting
 
It doesn't matter. China already won. They will be the superpower and there's nothing that other countries can do. Sure, USA can try being on offense, but ultimately China seized the means of production from capitalist societies. Learn Chinese to secure a higher position in the future Chinese colony now.

The question to confront is how should we deal with the near-certain invasions that will occur. Personally, I'd prefer if the western countries simply voted in Communist Party of China as their leaders to minimize the bloodshed for all sides.
You’re fluent in Chinese??? That’s really cool, do you reckon learning mandarin is enough or should I try to pick up some other dialects like Cantonese?
 
You’re fluent in Chinese??? That’s really cool, do you reckon learning mandarin is enough or should I try to pick up some other dialects like Cantonese?
I'm still learning. I'm using Basic Mandarin Chinese by Kubler.
 
can't wait to discuss this thread with you guys in 10 years time when we're bunkmates in a chinese concentration camp
Or in a war in which the US involved us for no reason, as they've been doing for years :(.
In case someone got hurt by this comment, sorry in advance.
 
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My last posts were deleted so I'll leave these sources here, at least they're not Wikipedia articles. I'd like to know some opinions about these and hopefully have an actual conversation without topics that are not even related in any way to this thread.
 

earl

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My last posts were deleted so I'll leave these sources here, at least they're not Wikipedia articles. I'd like to know some opinions about these and hopefully have an actual conversation without topics that are not even related in any way to this thread.
That website is a conspiracy theory anti-west hotbed, at least Wikipedia has a citations list. This website has everything from climate change denial to 9/11 conspiracy theories. If your source has an extensive rationalwiki article chances are it’s not particularly legitimate (link). A more diverse set of sources would likely do you some good, as Wikipedia (being an encyclopedia) is a compilation of sources whereas this is a single heavily opinionated and conspiracy heavy website (2014 US involvement must mean 2019 involvement! Mother Theresa wanted Bill Clinton to bomb Belgrade but the documents were mysteriously lost! This is not legitimate reporting lol).
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I would hardly consider those four articles as "sources" ... Three of them are entirely opinion-based (or represent facts without a source of their own), while one - Tracking Foreign Interference in Hong Kong - actually contains firsthand interviews. Any other reporting going on is quoted secondhand via another source, such as the BBC or Washington Post.

But I wouldn't consider any of the "reporters" reputable themselves, either. One is the editor-in-chief of The New Atlas, which looks like a personal blog. One is another blogger. One is "a frequent contributor to Global Research". And one has no credentials whatsoever.

What's really charming about this website, though, is its About page. Here you can find their guidelines for Submissions, which you must send to a Yahoo email address.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
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It doesn't matter. China already won. They will be the superpower and there's nothing that other countries can do. Sure, USA can try being on offense, but ultimately China seized the means of production from capitalist societies. Learn Chinese to secure a higher position in the future Chinese colony now.

The question to confront is how should we deal with the near-certain invasions that will occur. Personally, I'd prefer if the western countries simply voted in Communist Party of China as their leaders to minimize the bloodshed for all sides.
nah they didn't win they just have enough slow in enough areas to prevent a catastrophic confrontation. where as the usa has advanced by being the apex economy and military, china has made itself the 'starfish' the cornerstone state in the american order of things that rules the globe. perhaps only an ideologically communist society could have grasped how to leverage their numerical advantage for broad leeway against an economically and militarily more powerful force, but more likely, such a good position was inevitable given the emergence of a strong and highly legitimate (extremely strong mandate to rule, not necessarily ethically legitimate) state over such a large percentage of the global population. However, for the scale of manufacturing needed for corporate production, only china has the population, the sheer labor power, needed to power global manufacturing. Note that indeed, the people of china will 'stop' having their wages rise much in manufacturing at some point, and at that point it may be very difficult for them to advance geopolitically. In a nuclear weaponized landscape conquest is very risky because conquered peoples do not forget they are subjugated quickly and the risk of anything going wrong is the end of the world and you lose everything not just what you gained. The status quo is actually more worrying than the invasion scenario because China is happy to continue to finance technologies of oppression that increasingly illiberal Western/European democracies are happy to take up against citizens, and Russia is the same thing again. Russia is actually more scary (and not in some cold war type way, china is more like a present day cold war situation tbh) imo because the odds of a Chinese communist system becoming desirable to elites in western states is very low, but the probability that elite corporate oligarchs want to achieve ascendency over democratic political apparatuses is very high. Although Russia itself is not actually an oligarchy (it's an authoritarian regime of Vladimir Putin), the oligarchs of Russia are essential actors on behalf of the state, kind of like having ex fossil fuel industrialists in charge of the American regulatory agencies, except they all dance to Putin's tune, carrying out state projects, instead of competing with each other as they do in America.

Russia, unlike china, stands to gain 300m acres of arable land from climate change that will utterly destroy the US this century.
 
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Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
Owing to the fact that I'm living in Hong Kong, and that there are relatively reliable sources claiming China is developing a system to monitor people's speech online, (and that social credits can depend on what a person has said online)

All I can say for now is, read Animal Farm. (And the Wiki article that explains the political inspirations of Animal Farm)


You’re fluent in Chinese??? That’s really cool, do you reckon learning mandarin is enough or should I try to pick up some other dialects like Cantonese?
China is trying really hard to kill Cantonese. They believe that the existence of Cantonese is stopping people of Hong Kong to unify themselves with China.
That was why when Pokemon tried to unify Chinese names in 2016 there was such an uproar.

Cantonese would probably become useless pretty soon. But if you want to save it, you can start learning it before it's too late.
 
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