Metagame The State of National Dex

[Cuddly]

Since a lot of people are giving their two cents on top tier Pokemon, so I think I will too.

Generally;
When looking at all these threats individually, all of them are actually fine, having weaknesses that hold them back.
The big issue is that these Pokemon are not individual Pokemon.
You can have a team that deals with certain threats, having all 6 in check, but then you can just lose because a team trade in a few other Pokemon. You have to go really Hyper Offense to Semi-Stall, with Balance teams falling off as they don’t have back bone to survive or the ability to dominate offensively.


While everyone is raving about Mega Metagross, I think the real threat is secretly Ash Greninja.
I have noticed a trend in a lot of these broken Pokemon, most of which are strong Physical Attackers.
Ash Greninja throws a wrench in what otherwise would be a decent core for dealing with the other broken Pokemon, which is the heart of the problem right now.
I felt this way before the DLC and feel the same now.
Banning Ash-Greninja will be the biggest improvement to team building, and moving forward, the best solution is to keep in mind “Well X is currently broken, but does Y help enable it to be broken?” as these Broken Pokemon are only broken because other Broken Pokemon help enable them.

Edit: Whoops accidentally hit send instead of preview.

Tornadus-Therian is a symptom of 2 big issues I have with Competitive Pokemon in general.
First is the overbearing nature of Pivot moves and How easy it is to remove hazards.
I made a post about this in the OU discussion thread, and most of it still applies here, and worse too.
In short; with the abundance of Pivots moves and bigger threats each generation, it’s way too easy to get a huge threat on the field or to have a threat dodge out of the way for a defensive Pokemon to take a hit. The other issue being how easy it is to remove/ignore hazards.
Tornadus-T fits the bill for both perfectly with the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots and new friends to pivot between.
I has said in that post that I don’t know how the council would deal with such an issue, as it overlaps with a lot of Pokemon, but currently banning Tornadus-T to see if such issues become better would be the realistic option.
If you want, I could link that post to you if you haven’t already read it and I hope people would consider it too.


Here is the CEO of NatDex OU.
Before I thought that the DLC would introduce more regional variants than just F*cking Slowbro-G which turned out to be worse than I thought.
But anyways, Metagross Mega is a behemoth that has gotten better from the DLC thanks to Urshifu-SS, and mostly because it has Wicked Blow and U-Turn (see, it appears again).
The introduction to Urshifu has really put the Chief over the edge, and should be the third Pokemon banned.

Edit2:

I already have stated before that while Urshifu is great and influential, it’s pretty overrated.
It’s most notable feats being Wicked Blow and U-Turn.
Sure, tons of Fairies or Fighting types can come in to resist Urshifu’s Wicked Blow, but Urshifu could U-Turn into Mega Metagross.
This circle backs to the issue of NatDex currently and competitive Pokemon in general.
It’s hard to check things when it’s so easy to bring in a counter check without consequence and maintain offensive momentum as a result.
Urshifu is filled with problems of its own (Limited PP on STABs, pretty frail and poor defensive typing, slow, and requires a Choice item) and is definitely not ban worthy, it just excels so well because of what you can put on your team.


One of the biggest mistakes in GameFreak’s decisions is to make it so a Pokemon could hold 2 choice items without consequence, and then give such a thing to Darmanitan.
Despite this, feel pretty similar about it to Urshifu. But instead of Metagross, it’s Tornadus-T (and Defog in general).
It has flaws such as always being locking into a move if it has Gorilla Tactics, Stealth Rock gives it limited use (not so much an issue) and it is hard for Darmanitan-G to switch in (although that’s pretty much a non-issue with pivoting moves. Did I mention that I think U-turn might be a problem?)
Ban Tornadus-T first, if Darmanitan-G is still causing trouble, then ban Darmanitan-G too.


Ok, no.
Toxapex may be annoying, but it’s pretty important for keeping things in line.
I have no idea why this is even being suggested.


Similarly, Lopunny keeps things in line. It’s a little bit victim to the underlying problem, but after a few bans it shouldn’t be too bad for competitive.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

I also think that on top of these 5 Pokemon, Mega Lopunny should be looked at: possibly not in the first slate but definitely at some point down the line. Its newfound access to U-turn gives it the ability to support a whole lot of incredibly potent wallbreakers. Due its somewhat limited counterplay options, it is very easy to pair Mega Lopunny with Pokemon that can almost always make progress versus its checks and since Mega Lopunny can force so many switches, it is very easy to get these free turns to use U-turn. The most notable benefactor of this up until now has been Kyurem, as it can easily force out and set up substitutes on all of Mega Lopunnys checks (Tangrowth, Alomomola, Slowbro, Hippowdon etc) bar Clefable. On top of this, Mega Lopunny also makes matchups versus offensive teams much easier due to its speed tier and access to strong priority. This is important as the strong wallbreakers that Mega Lopunny pairs with so well are typically kept in check by their susceptibility to more offensive play styles and this dynamic typically gives Mega Lopunny teams very solid matchups across the board and makes them very difficult to prepare for.

However, the reason I think Mega Lopunny isn't as important to look at right now is that the prominence of many of the Pokemon that it can abuse are results of the metagame as a whole. On top of this, it is also fairly difficult to see just how good Lopunny is when it is currently very difficult to build the types of teams Mega Lopunny is good on, due to the constraints that the other Pokemon mentioned here put on the metagame. It does, however, say a lot that even now when balance is almost none existent, Mega Lopunny is considered one of the best Pokemon in the tier. If this Pokemon doesn't make it into the first slate I would like to see it looked at in the future after we see how it performs in a meta without the more obviously unhealthy threats.

The fact that Mega Lopunny gets a pivot move does raise a lot of eyebrows. Something that hasn't been mentioned is that Mega Lopunny DOES get Close Combat now, a powerful fighting STAB which, despite having lower PP and the consequence of lowering both defense stats, is 100% accurate. Sure, it does only 120 in comparison to High Jump Kick, but that 10% miss chance might be enough to convince people to run CC.

Even with these tools, though, Mega Lopunny is pretty much overshadowed by a lot of other prominent attackers, the most notable being Single-Strike Urshifu. Knowing that the bear has a 100% crit-rate move and can go through Protect should instantly signify which of the two attackers is clearly stronger. I think the only things that Urshifu loses in comparison to Mega Lopunny is a pitiful Sp. Def stat and a lower Speed stat. But the Sp. Def stat can easily be remedied with AV, and access to Sucker Punch makes the Speed stat less of a problem.

 

[Zed Thom]

After reading some more about things... The method in which a wave of bands will be a good start but I am not sure its going to be the best way. However, I cannot come up with a better way. Also, please ignore my previous post. But let get down to the meat now that I actually READ things within the post.

Ok, lets be real. More DLC (Crown of Tundra) is going to come by and hit us with new toys to play with and upgraded mons that would turn the metagame we all play onto its own head and then vomit on top of that. These new moves for our older mons including the legendaries is plain out disgusting. I won't point names but we can see the effects on what the DLC (Isle of Armor) has done and how it changed our mons the right way, like Mega Lopunny which is much more better now compared to Gen 7 and Gen 6. Its consistent and a lot more useful with U-turn and better fighting stab. So... Yay, DLC (Isles of Armor) is good. But not entirely. So far, these new upgrades are pretty nice to have. But DLC (Isles of Armor) has also made some mons all the more... A bit to powerful to be around. From this point on, I am not going to point out mons unless I have to in order to make an example. Such as a mon that can spam a dark move that always crits. At first, I though that it wouldn't do much but slap a choice band and damn the damage. But there are dark resists in the tier. But would it be enough, not exactly. One specific mon that had to be ban just because it got nasty plot and if it mega evolves while under terrian.. then a lot of mons are going to die. As for the current system in place, it works well but can it be done better? Maybe.

According to Jordy's post, instigating a wave of bans and then retesting mons on a later date is the best thing this meta can really do. At the same time, some mons won't need to be retested because of the amount of damage they will do because of the DLC giving them new moves that would break the metagame. Nobody wants to deal with Shell Smash Mega Blastoise again... I mean... We let that thing roam free and look what it did. Took a good shit on everyone's team. As of now, I am ok with this metagame to a degree. I rather have a wack metagame then a sweaty metagame. But the only thing I am against when it comes to this approach is the potential of banning mons that actually are easier to beat and deal with in practice then it is on paper

 

[Jordy]

Hey everyone, the council has decided to put together an early mockup of what the slate may look like. This is not the final slate, and we'll make sure to do another vote on Friday, but this is where we stand as of right now. We would love to hear any extra input you have so that we can take that with us on Friday.

Hide

With this, we would be voting on Urshifu-S, Mega Metagross, Galarian Darmanitan, Ash-Greninja, and Tornadus-T.

 

[Bobsican]

The fact that Mega Lopunny gets a pivot move does raise a lot of eyebrows. Something that hasn't been mentioned is that Mega Lopunny DOES get Close Combat now, a powerful fighting STAB which, despite having lower PP and the consequence of lowering both defense stats, is 100% accurate. Sure, it does only 120 in comparison to High Jump Kick, but that 10% miss chance might be enough to convince people to run CC.

Even with these tools, though, Mega Lopunny is pretty much overshadowed by a lot of other prominent attackers, the most notable being Single-Strike Urshifu. Knowing that the bear has a 100% crit-rate move and can go through Protect should instantly signify which of the two attackers is clearly stronger. I think the only things that Urshifu loses in comparison to Mega Lopunny is a pitiful Sp. Def stat and a lower Speed stat. But the Sp. Def stat can easily be remedied with AV, and access to Sucker Punch makes the Speed stat less of a problem.

AV is not too useful here, Urshifu really wants to have a Choice Band to just 2HKO the entire meta with the right move, plus the boost AV grants here is not high enought to be as viable as the before-mentioned Choice Band. It's like as if you tried AV Kartana, it just isn't worth it. In addition, Sucker Punch isn't easy to fit as you want Poison Jab to punish Fairy types when predicting well, but outside of that the rest is somewhat accurate.

Anyways, I'm going to give my take on this stuff:



As many have said before, it warps teambuilding as it simply can circumvent whatever check you can think of with either brute force or with the right coverage move. A single triggering of hax in its part allows it to bypass/wear down the checks a team may have then just sweep. High bulk and quite good speed that even limits offensive counterplay doesn't help either. I've also talked about this in this post (Also this continuation), so I'm going to keep more elaboration on the above there, especially considering this has been covered to death already.



Being choice locked turns this quite easy to deal with for defensive teams, especially considering you can scout with Protect or just switch-in something with Rocky Helmet that can take a hit comfortably such as Slowbro to wear it down, a lack of recovery, no defensive utility whatsoever and hazard disliking also turn this into a wide glass cannon with somewhat low longevity. But that's where the limitations of it end, a nice speed tier thanks to Choice Scarf + Gorilla Tactics allows it to pressure a lot teams that lack a physically defensive switch-in, in addition, the CB^2 set is able to break defensive backbones if used correctly, and the "meme" Zen Mode + Sub - Belly Drum actually often catches teams by surprise out of G-Darm generally forcing switches out of the other sets starting with far more firepower, but this set isn't too viable out of there being better Sub-BD users around, such as Kommo-o, although the surprise factor and its existence are to be noted.

Overall, G-Darm is able to pressure all sorts of teams, but it holds enought counterplay in my point of view, Defensive teams can status it then stall it to death (Yes, even the CB^2 set thanks to PrankWisps Sableye and Alomomola), while Balance holds defensive backbones such as Rotom-H, Slowbro and Toxapex alongside some speed control to avoid it just breaking stuff too easily, and more offensive teams are able to keep minimal defensive options to pressure it offensively out of somewhat low speed tier by Choice Scarf user standards and is checked offensively by Scarf users such as Hydreigon and Kartana, especially with a SR weakness limiting its longevity. Z-Move sets to circumvent Choice Locking are also a thing, and while nuking by surprise a wall with Z-Earthquake or Z-Icicle Crash is annoying, this set is rather niche compared to the CB^2 set as the sheer firepower of that set is far more consistent, and thus such Z-Move sets are easier to play around (Especially considering those slower sets tend to be kept for late-game or against stuff below its "regular" speed tier, so as you'll be treating it as the CB^2 set, you'l play more carefully against it than the Scarf set). In the end, while G-Darm always puts offensive pressure and can be a pain to deal with late-game, I don't think it deserves a quickban as of now, but keeping an eye on it definitely is a good idea.

"What if we took Hoopa-Unbound and made it have legitimate offensive STAB, pivoting, actual physical bulk, the ability to ignore Intimidate, a better typing, a neutrality to U-Turn and a passable speed tier?"
While one could argue that Urshifu has plenty of offensive checks and all, it simply lacks any defensively consistent one whatsoever beyond the otherwise unviable Buzzwole and Shelmet. Fairy types such as Clefable, G-Weezing and Mega Altaria come to mind as consistent switch-ins, until you remember this gets Poison Jab to heavily chip them, or just pivot with U-Turn into Mega Metagross or other Steel type that can abuse them. Overall, while its usage is simple, it centralizes the meta too much out of breaking balance apart, if you ask me, the metagame would benefit a lot from it being banned.



Ash Greninja at first looks like a free 640 BST mon roaming around with insane offenses that can bring competition with Deoxys-N and passable STAB to complement it. However, many forget that this starts as a 530 BST mon with no actual ability until it transforms by killing something first. Greninja being choice-locked also turns the walling of this pretty easy to achieve by stuff such as Chansey, (Jho)Toxapex, Hydreigon, Tapu Fini, and Kommo-o (Plus the niche but still somewhat viable Mega Gyarados and Mega Altaria). Most of the before-mentioned mons are pretty common and so this task (KOing something with Gren) isn't as simple, especially considering more offensive teams are able to make mindgames over which STAB move it chooses to switch something that can take advantage of it. However, the problem arises over how multiple partners it holds (Such as Mega Metagross) allows it to wear down the checks of each other to turn this far easier in practice. I don't think Greninja should be quickbanned as the issue arises more from the support of more broken things such as Mega Metagross limiting the usability of stuff to check it.



Yes, this is surprisingly hard to KO out of obscene bulk and reliable recovery + Regenerator to consistently switch into things. However, Toxapex is very passive and predictable, it's easy to just bring an stallbreaker such as Tapu Fini, Gliscor, Heatran or Clefable to gain momentum on it. In addition, Toxapex doesn't punish legitimate skill like other stuff above, nor centralizes teams as it is easy to pressure offensively by a Ground, Electric and/or Psychic type, and even then Ground/Electric coverage is everywhere out of it being viable to complement a ton of mons, preventing it from being actually centralizing. Sure, it can annoy a bit with Toxic/Scald, but it's easy to fit into a team something that takes advantage of that, while also being viable out of also breaking multiple other defensive mons and not being as limited in checking just Toxapex in particular (If at all), as it's the case with other of the before-mentioned checks for the other "suspected" mons such as Mega Metagross, of which some don't even have consistent ones whatsoever, which isn't the case here as explained before. If anything, this being a pain to deal with comes from teams being that limited right now, but Toxapex definitely isn't a main factor.



Just like with Toxapex, this being suspected seems more to be out of it fitting as a sort of anti-meta pick, however, now offensively out of having STAB that hits the entire meta for neutral damage, which when combined with priority, pivoting and a large speed tier, it is able to annoy multiple sorts of teams. The main issue comes from U-Turn, allowing it to pivot away from bulky Water/Grass types to then just bring in a mon such as Kyurem to then freely gain momentum. While this seems to be more of an issue of the meta being somewhat limited in answers to this, out of focusing on more "broken" things, Mega Lopunny itself lacks firepower against more defensive teams, and a lack of recovery also turns it quite easy to wear down. I think it would be best to check this after seeing how the metagame develops after something else is banned, rather than getting a quickban, as this by itself isn't broken in my perspective, at least for now.



It's amazing how something with otherwise unreliable STAB, a mediocre typing on paper and a weakness to Stealth Rock is able to have legitimate longevity and provide offensive support as a solid Knock Off/Defog user to multiple sorts of teams thanks to nice bulk, Regenerator and a good speed tier which when combined with U-Turn becomes something that can nearly always at least leave a mark in a match. However, while consistent, Tornadus-T doesn't force teams to carry something that can get rid of it without such thing being otherwise too niche or useless against most other stuff. Multiple Electric types such as Zapdos and Rotom-H are able to switch into it, from there, switch-ins increase a lot depending on what moves it chooses to run, such as Tyranitar (Which can also Pursuit-trap), Tapu Fini and Hydreigon, however, this list is still somewhat limited, and everything that can come into it dislikes losing an item, so i can see why it could be banned, but it's not "that" broken if you ask me, although I'll remain neutral when it comes to banning it, unlike the others.



This holds plenty of checks, especially offensive ones, however, the act of it being able to 2HKO everything not immune to Fishious Rend is to be noted. As an stallbreaker, it doesn't give enought of a chance to slower teams to stand a chance, while also sucking against more offensive teams out of just being dispatched out of having a somewhat poor speed tier even with a Choice Scarf against such. I find it as uncompetitive, rather than actually broken, as it technically doesn't actually centralize the meta, but it downright heavily punishes teams that aren't prepared for it, to the point skill against it is impossible if you don't have something that can revenge kill it (Which is common in stall and Trick Room teams), and those team archetypes shouldn't be that punished.

"Uncompetitive – A Pokémon, tactic or strategy that limits the game from being played in a fair and skilful manner, i.e. the odds of successfully countering something uncompetitive with the average team are too low (luck reliant counter play)."

In here, "average" team is a quite varied term out of how the counterplay around Dracovish is nearly entirely based on speed tiers, as even Alomomola dies with Rain support, so defensive counterplay is essencially nonexistent with (easy to add) team support unless you run the otherwise team-limiting Gastrodon/Seismitoad. So it being banned for being actually uncompetitive depending a lot on the match-up itself is to be considered.

However, as I got pointed out in the Discord, the "average" team holds reasonable counterplay against Dracovish, so technically speaking it doesn't deserve a ban here unlike regular OU out of not even being that reliable out of Banded sets being easy to abuse out of having a low speed tier and Scarf sets are far easier to wall.



Yes, this thing is annoying for offensive teams out of having a very good speed tier, a solid typing and even setup in Dragon Dance that allows it to outspeed nearly the entire meta on a single turn while also buffing offensive capabilities. However, the movepool it holds on the physical side is really poor, in addition, Dragon Dance sets are forced to have a Z-Crystal to be effective, and even then, as it can only be used once, Dragapult often is left limited if there's a Fairy type and a bulky Steel type, a physically bulky mon that can take a +1 Z-Phantom Force such as Tangrowth on the opposing team, a Normal type or just a combination of the above (Which is pretty common, forcing a ton of mindgames at worst). Other sets such as Z-Thunder and Specs aren't as reliable and easier to play around. Overall, Dragapult isn't broken by any means, a weakness to Pursuit and a lack of recovery allows reliable counterplay to happen, even in offensive teams, screen support from Grimmsnarl, countless Scarf users such as Hydreigon, Greninja and Sucker Punch priority from mons such as Cinderace, or just Pursuit trapping prevents Dragapult from doing much if used right.

 

[Zed Thom]

Ok. The results are in and... I am ok with it and being somewhat ok with it but I do have some counter points in quick banning certain mons and how some of those mons are not as overbearing to the meta then what we think.

G-Darm: Despite how offensively good this mon is, its a lot more easier to be able to wear it down and beat it in a defensive way then what we think. Rocky Helm Slowbro and Helm Alamolola are mons that come to mind and they are effective against this mon. Even within choice banded, G-darm doesn't want to be outspeed by other pokemon and would only work against slower teams. When it comes to scarf, its easier since scarf mons like hydreigon put a stop to it or priority moves such as Bullet Punch from Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor or regular Scizor and it will die after recoild from flare blitz. Toxapex can check it if you get the prediction right as well. However, I was given some info that when it comes to G-darm, it only needs to make the Flare blitz play once and boom. Dead steel. At the same time, no player would want to sack their G-darm so easily. G-Darm is more beatable in reality then it is on paper. Also, stealth rocks will put this mon on the back burner. At the same time, the use of Z-moves in this meta and giving it a one time shot to switch up moves instead of staying locked in is a problem. But if it's quick banned, then ok.

Tornadous T: I will be honest, I don't really understand how this mon is even being voted to begin with. Its a good mon in general but it isn't the be all end all. I believe its just the meta itself making this mon seemingly more better then what we think.This mon along can't do everything and it does what it does well. Plus, with DLC around the corner, we have no confirmations about any new moves this mon will even get yet. Its just a good mon. not worth a quick ban.

Ash-Greninja: We all have used Tapu Fini, Spdef ferrothorn, Toxapex or even just Assault Vest Tangrowth before. So just use these guys and Ash-gren isn't as much of a problem then. I know dark pulse flinch can happen and that is hax for you. But this mon as easy counter play. Its time to start using it if its that much of a problem. Not worth the quick ban.

It took me a while to edit this after Jordy DM me about my previous post. But this is what I want to say and I ask for the council to tale my imput into consideration.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

I just want to defend this thing because a lot of people have the opinion thats its unhealthy. Just before the DLC dropped Darm-G actually started to fall of a little. Its extreme weakness to residual damage made it less preferable to some of the other offensive threats like Hydreigon. But the main problem was when people realized that Tapu Fini isn't the best check, and thus stopped slapping it every team. Once Slowbro, Toxapex, and especially Alomomola became popular tournament picks Darm-G was now dealing with long games regenerator waters that would always outlast it without extremely good predictions. Other innovations like pain split Rotom-H, protect Heatran, and Mega Scizor rose and really started to feast on its main flaws. Keep in mind that all of these pokemon were great and not that hard to fit onto teams.

Now fast forward to the post DLC metagame. Urshifu Single Strike came into the metagame and its by far the best Darm-G partner we've ever seen. It smashes through Slowbro and its Wicked Blow does a ton of damage to Toxapex and Alomomola. Oh and Urshifu also had U-turn as well so it can make for a incredibly hard to stop Pivot core between the 2. Add on toxic Mega Metagross and then you get a insanely broken, hard to stop core.

So basically what I'm saying is that Darm-G was slowly fitting in more with the metagame and was slowly becoming less egregious to deal with. But with the first DLC released its now being associated with generally broken pokemon like Mega Metagross and Urshifu which in my opinion isn't warranted because those 2 aren't as prediction reliant, can actually switch directly into pokemon, are both resistant to Stealth Rock, and lack defensive checks that aren't punishable by Toxic.

As for the other pokemon on the sheet. Ash-Greninja is a good partner to G-Darm as it can pressure some of its checks. But if Tornadus-T goes then being able to clear away SR will not be as easy and thus G-Darm will be more pressured when its always on a timer when switching around. If you ban the other 4 mons on the sheet then Darm-G will be negatively effected and thus easier to deal with.

I hope the council will take in this input because I generally believe that G-Darm is a pokemon that can work in the Natdex OU tier. Also stop bringing up Dracovish.

 

[Lameflame]

Thoughts

– I’m a little surprised that this hasn’t gotten more discussion than it has so far. The meta surely had some issues prior to DLC, but I think Urshifu-SS is the catalyst for this thread existing in the first place. I don’t necessarily think it’s “broken” in this tier; it’s clearly flawed in ways that have already been described, and those flaws are only so easily masked in practice (e.g. actually getting it into play safely). That’s not the issue though. I personally think this mon is one of the few on the proposed slate that I would like to see banned for the time being and later retested, largely for it’s highly warping effect on teambuilding. Put simply, it has no 4MSS issues at all, it has the freedom to choose to either pivot out of or snipe its checks with U-turn/Poison Jab as a result, and it forms offensive cores with other pokemon that are difficult to justify maintaining for the time being. Access to U-turn really skews the risk-reward in favor of the Urshifu user in a way that I don’t think is healthy.

– Going to be honest here, I think this mon’s capabilities are getting oversold. Don’t get me wrong, on paper this mon has so much theoretical potential, it theoretically can deal with any of its defensive counterplay, and it’s not any worse than an A-A+ mon in terms of its viability. In practice, I haven't personally found it to be the menacing presence that it’s made out to be. In terms of teambuilding, I think you need to go out of your way to build a team that has absolutely no counterplay to Darm. Checks and counters are a form of counterplay, but not all counterplay revolves around defensive checks and counters. I am mindful of the counterarguments that have been listed in this thread and elsewhere – that its Choice band set lacks true defensive counters, and that it’s constraining to force bulky waters to check it or Ash Gren (since most can’t do both), but simply from experience, I think saying this mon is quickban worthy is a reach. It is prediction reliant, struggles with a mediocre speed tier (in each of its roles), is prone to priority and chip from itself, hazards or helmet recoil, etc. If someone feels very strongly otherwise and has replays demonstrating situations where this mon is clearly unhealthy then I would love to see them (not speaking rhetorically – I would actually like to see them, my mind is open on this one.)

– I personally think that this mon is a necessary evil for this tier due to the defensive utility and role compression it provides. The fact that it can situationally/soft-check mons that are otherwise difficult to account for in the teambuilder (e.g. checking Medicham & Kartana, luring Heatran) is something that the tier needs. Again, I read the other points and I’m not necessarily disputing them, but banning this mon on “slate #1” feels at best premature and at worst, unwarranted. For what it’s worth I would not get rid of Toxapex for mostly the same reasons – it feels counterintuitive to the goal we are trying to achieve.

,, (also , ) – These all feel like “products of the metagame” as previously stated by others. Whatever unhealthy qualities they may have for the time being, I don’t think they’re enough to push these mons into a conversation about getting banned – certainly not now, and arguably not ever.

– If your chosen form of counterplay is to try and “counter” this mon defensively, then in that sense, it is constraining. If your chosen form of counterplay is to make use of the literal dozen or so other options that exist in this tier, it is much less constraining, and not broken. The latter statement is where I stand on this mon, and where the general consensus seems to be anyway.

 

[Fatty Rabbit]

So touched that ppl have finally responded to my point in my last comment about how a certain wall can be restrictive to teambuilding. Yes! I was talking about THE PEX THIS WHOLE TIME. but I wasn't supposed to specify which mons to ban back then , anyways... My point here is that if we only suspect test the wallbreakers but turn a blind eye to the tanks, the metagame will inevitably revert back to a stall meta, where stall will only get better and better as there are fewer options to break through them.

While toxapex is not truly broken, like at all, since it does have a few counters, (unlike some others like galar darm) I believe it is pretty clear how toxapex's versatility has made it the best tank around in this meta.

This seastar is nothing like the other walls. Thanks to its incredible bulk in both sides of the spectrum, the pex is able to keep a huge variety of otherwise dangerous mons in check , to point out a few...
Dracovish, ash greninja, magearna, mega lopunny, volcarona and even scout for galar darm's earthquake if it runs baneful bunker, or poison it if it decides to free U turn. It can scald burn its physical checks in the switch in and can even haze setup mons to despair. What more to ask for.

Its incredible bulk and access to regenerator lets it tank most super effective hits with ease and it can switch back in later in the battle, healthy enough to take more hits and heal itself to full. These qualities not only gives pex a place in all stall teams, but also in the vast majority of balance teams on ladder as well. Its omnipresence also invalidates the many mons in the meta that are already sort of hampered by mega metagross, such as mega diancie and tapu bulu.

While this does not make pex seem instantly banworthy, it makes good friends with its fellow walls, like corviknight and ferrothorn, due to them covering up each other's weaknesses perfectly. So one would be forced to run several wallbreakers or a specific stall counter like gengar to have any hope against a stall team.

I do believe we would see an immediate and drastic effect on teambuilding following the ban of pex. Stall would "hopefully" be easier to break, even with the leave of unaminously broken wallbreakers like urshifu and galar- darmanitan.

We do not want things to terrorize the meta though, so I sincerely believe if we decide to ban the seastar, we MUST ban dracovish at the same time. The only reason why some have an illusion that dracovish being not overpowering is due to the overwhelming amount of teams running pex. You do not want dracovish to go crazy. I believe quite a few of you have fought my trick room choice band dracovish on ladder. It OHKOs even resisted mons like dragapult with fishious rend. What could happen to teams if their most reliable dracovish counter is removed?

Yes pex is slappable and good on any team, but is it the same for other dracovish counters which are less reliable anyways? Say tangrowth, slowbro or more fringe options like seismitoad and volcanion? These mons are not able to counter as many mons as pex itself does. Man, pex and dracovish relationships are like predator prey dynamics. Pex is the main predator(check) of dracovish and keeps its usage in check, if pex is removed, dracovish usage will skyrocket immediately.

We do have to put a close eye on volcarona and ash greninja tho, if pex really gets banned , as there will not be as many options to counter these two. I certainly don't think they will be as broken as a dracovish in a no pex meta tho. Anyways pex is just a bit too good in this meta while dracovish is constraining, so I believe some actions have to be done.

 

[Bobsican]

So touched that ppl have finally responded to my point in my last comment about how a certain wall can be restrictive to teambuilding. Yes! I was talking about THE PEX THIS WHOLE TIME. but I wasn't supposed to specify which mons to ban back then , anyways... My point here is that if we only suspect test the wallbreakers but turn a blind eye to the tanks, the metagame will inevitably revert back to a stall meta, where stall will only get better and better as there are fewer options to break through them.

(...)

Oh well, I'll go back and reply to some points as best as I can.

"My point here is that if we only suspect test the wallbreakers but turn a blind eye to the tanks, the metagame will inevitably revert back to a stall meta"

While that could potentially be the case, let's see the reasonings you bring up fo this being the case on walls such as Toxapex...

"It can scald burn its physical checks in the switch in and can even haze setup mons to despair. What more to ask for."

Scald is pretty unreliable out of being RNG based, and so would fall more as hax rather than a legitimate likely chance of doing that, at least not without being simply unreliable as said before. As for the Haze part, Toxapex still remains as quite passive, and you aren't going to just insert a setup sweeper such as Mega Charizard X on it to be Toxic stalled to death, and even then you can pull mindgames with trying to chip it while it wastes a turn with Haze so you can setup then threaten it out by setting up while it uses Recover from the chip done in the previous turn. As I explained before, stallbreakers such as Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor and Tapu Fini are pretty common for such a task. There's a difference between a setup sweeper and an stallbreaker, even if the two kinda overlap fairly often, and stallbreakers aren't mons that are very specific for teams, so Toxapex of all things being centralizing isn't the case for the before-mentioned reasons and more I'll say below. It being solid and consistent doesn't mean it's automatically "broken" out of the reasons you said before such as it being able to scout G-Darm, either.

"Its incredible bulk and access to regenerator lets it tank most super effective hits with ease and it can switch back in later in the battle, healthy enough to take more hits and heal itself to full. These qualities not only gives pex a place in all stall teams, but also in the vast majority of balance teams on ladder as well. Its omnipresence also invalidates the many mons in the meta that are already sort of hampered by mega metagross, such as mega diancie and tapu bulu."

As said before, being reliable doesn't automatically means it's broken, in addition, Mega Diancie pressures Toxapex with Earth Power, while Tapu Bulu is able to pressure it too with the sheer firepower of Band + Wood Hammer (Allowing a 2HKO even on the standard physically defensive variant).

"While this does not make pex seem instantly banworthy, it makes good friends with its fellow walls, like corviknight and ferrothorn, due to them covering up each other's weaknesses perfectly. So one would be forced to run several wallbreakers or a specific stall counter like gengar to have any hope against a stall team."

Stall isn't that hard to get past, it's an entire team archetype, but not an "uncompetitive" sort of team style like the well-known Baton Pass chains. As explained before, there's multiple stallbreakers that not only break stall, but also work as a tool to deal on balance and in some cases even offensive teams too (In fact, an "stallbreaker" is a basic part on teambuilding as it helps to reliably break a defensive backbone on the opposing team to ease sweeping). It being very passive also means that you can very easily switch something to take advantage of it.

As for the Dracovish part, while I can totally understand the side that finds it as "broken", "uncompetitive", etc., it simply isn't reliable against most teams, especially Choice Band ones out of the well-known fault it holds of a mediocre speed tier turning it into easy to get past by pressuring it offensively. More insane stallbreakers such as Manaphy (Which can legit 6-0 pure stall teams if there's no Haze/Unaware around) are a thing. Even then, options such as Tangrowth and Slowbro still act as somewhat reliable walls for it. As I explained in my other post, being "broken" against the niche team archetype known as stall simply isn't enought to qualify as actually broken, as the "average" team simply holds answers to it, thus making it neither centralizing or broken on the full perspective.

Ash-Greninja holds pretty common checks around, as I said on my post, and Volcarona is still checked by stuff such as Garchomp, Kommo-o, Dragapult, Rotom-H, Pelipper and Mega Swampert.

To end this, as this is quite repetitive overall, something being consistent doesn't automatically mean it's broken. Stallbreakers are a basic part in teambuilding to allow the pressure on defensive backbones, so this (stallbreakers) aren't niche, and thus Toxapex isn't centralizing nor uncompetitive as it simply doesn't have legitimate tools to get past them, or at most just cripple them if you're going too desperate such as leaving Tapu Fini as Toxic bait after you used Defog with it, or catching Gliscor on the switch with an (unreliable) Scald burn.

Also, Toxapex is at most an option for Stall, nowadays it faces competition with Alomomola out of current metagame trends, rather than fully promoting such team archetype, as it also finds use in Balance teams.

 

[Jho]

Thank you everyone for your input on this, we have voted on which Pokemon will be a part of the first slate. Whether these Pokemon stay in the tier or are banned will be voted on by the council over the next day or 2. Below you can find how everyone on the council voted:

votes

This means that the Pokemon that will be voted on as part of slate 1 are Urshifu-S, Mega Metagross, Darmanitan-Galar, Ash Greninja, Tornadus-T, and Toxapex.

For the time being I will be locking this thread and will post the results in a few days.