Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[SoulRed12]

This is correct.

Thanks.

 

[umbarsc]

The viability lists should take into account both how effective a Pokemon is during a battle and how easy it is to fit on a team (how much support it needs, opportunity cost). Viability is not affected only by the teambuilding process.

As long as you're laying down the law in ubers, want to explain to these people that Megas are ranked separately from their base form, as they are in every other tiers' viability rankings?

 

[Minority]

As long as you're laying down the law in ubers, want to explain to these people that Megas are ranked separately from their base form, as they are in every other tiers' viability rankings?

Ubers is independent of other tiers and we are literally above them. If you want to know why they are listed together then I suggest you to read the older posts, but basically it comes down to megas being similar to sets of a mon.

 

[Dilwar]

Nominating Ho-oh to be promoted for A+ rank.

"Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability."

The Choice Band Ho-oh set is one of Uber's premier wallbreakers and always shines against stall teams. This set alone offers enough offensive capability to be regarded as S rank. Nothing can switch into this set bar Arceus-Rock and the extremely uncommon (and bad) Rhyperior. That said, Arceus-Rock still takes a hefty chunk from a Choice Banded Earthquake.

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 228-270 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As shown by the calc above it's an easy 2hko which forces your opponent to Recover or KO you with Judgement. This allows for a switch in to for example, Kyogre or something else like Palkia that threaten Arceus-Rock so that it can't Recover. A common situation here is hazards are up and your opponent predicts that you will switch, so he goes for the Defog, but you instead go for Earthquake and finish it off - essentially winning you the game since now that Ho-oh's counter is gone, it has a field day. Alternatively they go for the safe Recover and you switch into something that threatens it like Specs Kyogre which allows for a free Water Spout to break other walls. Or if you're Scarfed, as the game goes on their walls are weakened to the point they can't switch in to a Water Spout anymore. Kyogre isn't the only mon that can work in this situation, it's pretty much any mon that threatens Arceus-Rock so you can stall out Arceus Rock's Recover after all the switch ins. The point is that the fact Earthquake 2hkos Arceus Rock makes for a 50/50 situation where the advantage is in your side, because you can always go for the safe switch out and get health back with Regenerator, while wasting Arceus-Rock's Recover so that it can't switch into EQ anymore. If Ho-oh comes out on top in the 50/50 situation, it essentially destroys all stall teams. If you're EQ is also running out, you can go for Sacred Fire which has a very good burn chance and cripple Rockceus, which would just force it to Recover more. You don't always have to go for EQ, the main aim is stalling out its Recover or being brave enough to win the 50/50. It really is funny how its best switch in is actually 2hkod.

Other switch ins such as Gliscor won't like a Sacred Fire due to the burn chance, and the fact that it 2hkos. Lando-T is essentially the same and still takes a very big amount from CB Sacred Fire or Brave Bird. Lando-T also has no recovery outside of Leftovers, so it's very easy to play around. The fact that Ho-oh's switch ins can't comfortably switch or can be played around fairly easily alone makes it deserving for a promotion.

Access to Regenerator is also amazing, since Brave Bird recoil doesn't matter and Ho-oh can't be "worn down." Against stall teams, it simply comes in, kills something, switches out with more health. Ho-oh also has other sets such as the Life Orb Sub-Roost set which works well too. It can function as a sleep absorber too (common in the Choice Band set) and does fantastically in this job. Uber's most common sleep inducer - Darkrai, is OHKOd by Brave Bird or Sacred Fire, and takes 70-80% from EQ (this includes Choice Band). What's more funny is that Darkrai does pitiful damage to Ho-oh - 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 121-144 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO - basically a 4hko, thus allowing for many chances to finish Dakrai.

"Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability."

Ho-oh also does well defensively, as shown by the physically defensive set which has become quite common. This set phazes the likes of Ekiller with Whirlwind and doesn't have to worry about Roosting thanks to Regen. There are other sets which may not be the best, but do work such as the AV set, which can act as a Xern check. You can even use the Choice Band set to check Xern, just hope they miss Thunder or don't have it. Even then, 60SpD EVs allow it to live +2 Thunder (assuming you're also running the common 248HP).

The only thing stopping it from S rank is that it needs support as it's hugely weak to rocks. If rocks weren't a thing, Ho-oh would definitely deserve S rank, but the fact that it needs support just brings it one stage down to A+.

 

[Asmodean]

Just a nitpick: most people do not run Kyogre with Ho-oh, as Ho-oh really likes its sun. However, Palkia is a good partner for Ho-oh and it does threaten Rockceus, Giratina-A, Rhyperior, etc which are some of the very few 'safe' switch-ins to Ho-oh. Palk can't touch Waterceus but even that doesn't like taking a CB Brave Bird.
I do agree with Dilwar and feel that Ho-oh deserves to be an A+ pokemon.

 

[Dilwar]

Just a nitpick: most people do not run Kyogre with Ho-oh, as Ho-oh really likes it's sun. However, Palkia is a good partner for Ho-oh and it does threaten Rockceus, Giratina-A, Rhyperior, etc which are some of the very few 'safe' switch-ins to Ho-oh. Palk can't touch Waterceus but even that doesn't like taking a CB Brave Bird.
I do agree with Dilwar and feel that Ho-oh deserves to be an A+ pokemon.

True, but Kyogre + Ho-oh can work. Groudon is usually in the team when these two are too. Regardless, you did say "most", not all, so yeah.

 

[QueenOfHax]

After both using and facing Zekrom in many battles I have reached the conclusion that it doesn't fit in A rank and should be dropped to B, possibly B- rank.
The reason is very simple: its dual STAB combination, while great in theory, makes it one of the easiest pokemon to play around in the tier. This fatal flaw is exacerbated by other two: base 90 speed and reliance on choice items.

Many teams feature a combination of two or more of the following pokemon: Xerneas, Groudon, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Fairyceus, Klefki, Scizor, all of which are resistant or immune to one of its STABs while not being weak to the other one (and most of them have great physical bulk to boot), meaning Zekrom will often kill your momentum if you make a wrong prediction, especially if it's Scarfed.
While it's true that Zekrom has Volt Switch and can go mixed, without a Choice Scarf it's simply too slow to work, and Volt Switch is still blocked by the common Ground types.

A common scenario is when your opponent has Rock Polish Groudon + GeoXerneas and you have Zekrom out: either way you have a 50% chance of giving your opponent the chance to set-up and possibly sweep your team, which is simply unacceptable for an A rank pokemon. This major flaw is enough to justify Zekrom dropping.

 

[Fireburn]

Okay update time:

Forretress B -> C: This was long overdue lol

Bronzong B -> C+: Still a decent utility mon because it can set SR + check Xerneas + check Ground-types but it's not exactly splashable due to its many faults which is unfortunate for a utility mon

Gastrodon C- -> C: Better than most people give it credit for, checks a lot of useful stuff, still kinda niche

Also, I think it's about time we can get this tiering list close to finalized. ORAS is coming out in two months and it would be pretty cool to have a (mostly) settled viability ranking list for XY before ORAS comes out and we all get deep-fried by Primal Groudon. I say this because I'll probably close this thread once ORAS comes out and start a new one (using this list as a baseline) since there are some things on the horizon will shake up the metagame quite a bit.

So yeah, if you have anything at all to say about this list, you should do it soon. To start, I think these are some key mons that could use more discussion:

Arceus-Normal: Should it be S-Rank?

Zekrom: Should it drop?

We will not be discussing Charizard as only Melee Mewtwo likes this mon. Go nuts with the rest of them.

 

[MMII]

Why try to finalize this thread? It's meant to be fluid and constantly adapt to the changing meta, not provide static tiers valueing each mon. Imo, it should stay open til oras cme out in hich case it'll need such a massive revamp it'll be better to just do a new thread.

 

[Fireburn]

Why try to finalize this thread? It's meant to be fluid and constantly adapt to the changing meta, not provide static tiers valueing each mon. Imo, it should stay open til oras cme out in hich case it'll need such a massive revamp it'll be better to just do a new thread.

I guess finalize was the wrong word, I'm aiming more to confirm a general consensus on everything. We're gonna need a new thread when ORAS comes out anyway, things can always change leading up to then but it would be nice to make sure we have an accurate as possible snapshot of viability in the XY metagame as it is before ORAS.

 

[Minority]

I also think Zekrom should be dropped, but B- is a little harsh. The reason being, although it can be an excellent win condition, its success hinges entirely on a notoriously inaccurate move and is about as prediction reliant as a mon can ever get. Even non-choice sets often have their success reliant on bluffing a Scarf. The thing is that Darkrai is comparable to this inconsistency as well thanks to Dark Void, although its not nearly in the same situation as Zekrom since Darkrai is fast without getting locked into a move. For people who enjoy loosing battles they ought to win, and win battles they ought to loose, I would highly suggest Zekrom, good luck having any consistency though.

 

[kingmidas]

I also think Zekrom should be dropped, but B- is a little harsh. The reason being, although it can be an excellent win condition, its success hinges entirely on a notoriously inaccurate move and is about as prediction reliant as a mon can ever get. Even non-choice sets often have their success reliant on bluffing a Scarf. The thing is that Darkrai is comparable to this inconsistency as well thanks to Dark Void, although its not nearly in the same situation as Zekrom since Darkrai is fast without getting locked into a move. For people who enjoy loosing battles they ought to win, and win battles they ought to loose, I would highly suggest Zekrom, good luck having any consistency though.

85 "inaccurate", stop having that little tidbit in all your arguments about hax, its a part of the game, and 8.5 times out of 10 its gonna work, luck is not a reason to drop a mon, except if it relies on stuff like grass whistle or zap cannon/inferno, but wait lol no one uses them because they're actually inaccurate. And no, all zekrom needs to do is force a switch, and either hit or use stuff like sub or tailwind, then go on a rampage, since non choice sets run LO, then you can't really bluff after you attack once. Please learn how to actually have an argument aside from probability and odds, it all seems like a huge bitch about the game.

 

[Asmodean]

The mere presence of Zekrom forces many teams to run Ground-Fairy cores, and not the other way around. Despite this, Zekrom can get away with only running STAB moves due to it getting Volt Switch for scouting fairies and Draco Meteor to wreck bulky Grounds.

These measures do take away momentum in case of mispredictions but that is not a fault which is inherent to Zekrom. It can choose to run LO and Sub/Tailwind to wreck the switch-in, regardless of typing.

 

[QueenOfHax]

The mere presence of Zekrom forces many teams to run Ground-Fairy cores, and not the other way around.

It's an estabilished fact that if the metagame manages to adapt to a threat, no matter how influential it is/was, then said threat deserves to be moved down. So what if people are "forced" to run ground/fairy cores? Said ground/fairy types are amazing in ubers and a welcome addition to practically every team, with Groudon and Xerneas being the most important examples.

 

[Minority]

85 "inaccurate", stop having that little tidbit in all your arguments about hax, its a part of the game, and 8.5 times out of 10 its gonna work, luck is not a reason to drop a mon, except if it relies on stuff like grass whistle or zap cannon/inferno, but wait lol no one uses them because they're actually inaccurate. And no, all zekrom needs to do is force a switch, and either hit or use stuff like sub or tailwind, then go on a rampage, since non choice sets run LO, then you can't really bluff after you attack once. Please learn how to actually have an argument aside from probability and odds, it all seems like a huge bitch about the game.

If a mon is inconsistent that is a reason to drop it's rank, as is its effectiveness based on adaptations to the meta. 85 is not accurate, that is not an acing grade, so I don't know where you are pulling the figures for "accurate" from. You also underplay how important the first turn of using mix Krom is when you still can bluff the scarf. Zekrom also isn't rampaging against any good team until the very end of the game since ground-fairy is everywhere, so don't imply that on Zekrom's second turn in battle it's so good that it can automatically choose to rampage; that will result in a dead Zekrom. Mix Krom may be less prediction reliant but at the cost of being slow. Considering that Pokemon is a game of probabilities you better believe they are going to be integrated into arguments.

 

[Disaster Area]

zekrom can be used to make holes in the opposing team even with the scarf set I find

 

[ZoroDark]

idk what teams you're been facing then

 

[Haunted Diamond]

The fact that every team is so prepared for zekrom just shows how good it is.

 

[QueenOfHax]

The fact that every team is so prepared for zekrom just shows how good it is.

The fact every team is prepared for Zekrom means it's time for it to drop. It's just how it works for everything else.
It's not like you need to run obscure checks that have next to no use other than countering a specific threat (such as Xerneas), we're talking about extremely viable pokemon here (Groudon, Xerneas, Ferrothorn and so on). In other words: the metagame has successfully adapted to Zekrom, therefore it is no longer a top threat.

 

[Celticpride]

The fact that every team is so prepared for zekrom just shows how good it is.

That's more of an argument for a drop in viability than a rise in one. Impact on shaping the current meta and viability in the current meta are two different things.

 

[xDesch]

The fact that every team is so prepared for zekrom just shows how good it is.

This argument is a like a double edged sword. It is true for certain pokes, like Xerneas and Kyogre, but not with 99% of the other pokes. Let me put it this way: (nearly) every team (hopefully) have a way of beating, say Giratina, and the fact that most people are over prepeared for this 'mon, does not mean that it is extremely good. Saying that Giratina is "forcing" people to run things like Xerneas, Yveltal, Darkrai, Fairyceus or Dialga, is just stupid, because those pokes are more than welcome on pretty much any team. To put your claim in perspective, Magikarp is prepeared by every team, thta means he is good. It is a horrible example, yes, but I thought it was fitting for such a bad claim. So in Zekrom's case I'd say that this is something more negative than positive, tbh. The meta game has adapted. And it is not like people dislike using things like Lando-T, Groudon, Xern, Fairyceus, Groundceus, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, or a sick combination of all of the aforementioned to make Zekrom a more 50-50 reliant poke than STAG users. And that is not consistent at all. His best STAB even has an unconsisten accuracy. it is not something that really is important to most players, but this is obviously not helping Zekrom. He has a lot of versatility, but in this case, it is just not enough. Using anything else than a scarf, removes his ability to outspeed some key pokes that he just so desperately wants to. Ofc, he can bluff it on the first few turns he is out, and use that to his advantage, but more often than not, it doesn't work exceptionally well. So basically, Zekrom did have an impact on the Übers metagame, but he was the one who was the easiest to adapt to, hence why it is reasonable he should drop.

Small Edit: a tl;dr here would be: a pokes overall viability is based on how much its absolute effectiveness is, MINUS the amount by which the metagame prepares for it. So, Zekrom can be very, very effective, but the metagame is overprepared for him, which makes him lose a lot of his overall viability.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

+ApplepieFTW: wait wth, why is deo-d, in the same rank as gliscor mkahn and gir-o, wtf lol, also ferrothorn

"Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost."

+ApplepieFTW: this thing does not have large defensive capabilities to the extent which the other mons have thm\em
+ApplepieFTW: and it has a VERY specific role, and doesnt offer that much valuable utility
+ApplepieFTW: and on the teams you'd be like using it
+ApplepieFTW: idk why you wouldnt rather just use deo-s or scolipede

@haxiom: it's bad as a hazards setter
@haxiom: idk if it has any other utility tho

Seriously, what is this thing supposed to be good at? A hazard setter that makes better use of magic coat? Because it can run mental herb to lure people into taunting it? Idek why its this high, I would never use this on any kind of offense and I doubt there are a lot of people that would. B-mid is like really high.

C+, B- at most

 

[Dillon~]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zekrom.3502767/

-> B-. I feel that zekrom should fall to B- because of it just doesn't do as much in this metagame as it did last gen. It has good coverage and all, but it just doesn't play that big of a role.​

 

[Edgar]

The fact every team is prepared for Zekrom means it's time for it to drop. It's just how it works for everything else.
It's not like you need to run obscure checks that have next to no use other than countering a specific threat (such as Xerneas), we're talking about extremely viable pokemon here (Groudon, Xerneas, Ferrothorn and so on). In other words: the metagame has successfully adapted to Zekrom, therefore it is no longer a top threat.

Bro the fact that you have to run an Electric resist + a Fairy it's a good enough reason to make it a top threat, if u dont run a good reliable electric resist u get toasted by Bolt Strike alone, if you don't run a Fairy or Dragon resist Outrage nails you, that alone tells you that Zekrom is a really good pokemon, you're forced to run a resist to both STABs so you give it the least of free turns. I guess Ekiller needs to drop because people run Lando T, Groudon, Giratina-O and Yveltal, pokemon that are extremely viable pokemon in the current meta, btw Ferrothorn is not that viable, u would see it on a lot of teams if it was as good as you said it was. And sandshrewed, Zekrom is actually better in this meta than in last gen, last gen u couldnt fit it well on a team bar the Tailwind set because there was so much fast shit, and u had the lord of scarfers Genesect while in this gen it's a really good scarfer since Genesect isnt as good as it was before and the games aren't as fast paced as in BW2.

 

[Inspirited]

Talking about Zekrom as if it is one-dimensional is a bad idea also. Mixed Life Orb Zekrom is actually quite scary considering it has tools to OHKO / 2HKO most conventional checks and counters in Landorus-T, Gliscor, Groudon, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill. Tailwind variants force the switches they need to in order to go on wall breaking mini sweeps or end the games all together. I ended up doing this to CarbonTheSecond recently and Fireburn has experienced getting smashed by mixkrom in the not so distant past.

Most Bolt Strike resists also share a problem in lack of reliable recovery with the 3 exceptions being Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Gliscor, and they are usually blanketing more than one threat per team anyways. The way Zekrom forces these mons in is amazing for threats that also dislike the presence of Dialga, Landorus-T, Groudon, Giratina-O, Excadrill, or the three I mentioned above. Smacking them with Draco Meteor or Outrage on the switch is sometimes all the damage needed to end the game with another threat like Blaziken, Extreme Killer, Rock Polish or Double Dance Groudon, etc. or have it be the other way around to where one of these mons ends up weakening or KOing the Electric resist and Zekrom sweeps with Bolt Strike.

I think Zekrom is fine where it is tbh.