Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Chou Toshio]

Theorymon Discussion and Viability Experimentation/Ranking

credit to Zebraiken for the idea
co-hosted by Alexander.
Thread Originally Hosted by Neliel (Thanks Dude)

​

Hi guys, Chou here-- if you haven't noticed, I have been re-assigned the OP of this thread. I'd like to thank Neliel for starting the thread and taking it through its initial popularization. Neliel has been inactive for a while though, and I have a bigger vision for Theorymon, so I've gotten permission from the mods to take over the OP. Thanks Pocket.

So here's what we're doing (in addition to normal discussion):

Plan: Theorymon OU Viability Experimenting and Ranking




Assuming we can get the usage, from here on out we're going to start experimenting with theorymon ideas in custom games on PS! Not only will we actually use many of these theorymon ideas, but we will use the experience to make a Viability Ranking based on what is found in the OU Viability Ranking thread. Based on discussion in this thread, we will loosely and casually (with a LOT less scrutiny) rank the potential viability of the different theorymons in the S - E ranking system, based on how we think it would actually perform if allowed into OU.

The goal of this ranking is to have fun, so please do not be overly concerned with the accuracy of our rankings, or the reliability of method. We're here to have fun, and these custom games will never have enough usage to get us a perfect understanding anyway. We won't concern ourselves with being too accurate, or with testing multiple ideas at once-- because we will be doing mutiple ideas simultaneously.


WE NOW HAVE A LADDER (not for a metagame, but for testing and to avoid SPAMing the Lobby):

Permission from Chou Toshio to post this

From now on, OU Theorymon test games will be playable on the Tervari Server of PS!
Currently the only changes are the Pokemon that are tested for a Theorymon Viability Ranking
It is listed beneath Normal OU so it should be easy to find.

I hope I can help you guys with this ^_^

Outline of Process:

1) Every Month, I will choose ~10 theorymon Pokes from previous discussion (we're going to start with ideas closer to the beginning of the thread) that will be up for testing and discussion. I'll try to give a mix of defensive and offensive, and support over various weather types.

note: Only these 10 will be up for ranking discussion at a given time. Unfortunately, do to programming limitations, ranked ideas will be limited to added moves moves or abilities that exist in the game.

2) During the month, players will test and discuss the different Pokes rankings. Please use #pokemon or the PS chat to arrange Theorymon Viability battles.

Note: This IS the THEORYmon thread. Opinions based on actual battles will be given greater weight, but theorymon based opinions will also influence rankings (to a much lesser degree).

3) At the end of each month, the 10 ideas will be ranked, before releasing the new 10.

Please note that we will be using the same framework as the OU Viability Ranking Thread, with the addition of one more class-- the Uber Rank:


Uber Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are clearly so powerful and unbalancing that they would undoubtedly be banned if they were to actually exist in BW OU. Opinions pointing a Pokemon to Uber Rank should be based on tiering philosophy, and those characteristics associated with banning a Pokemon in the real metagame.

Other Ranks:


If you have any other questions, please ask them here.



For the first round, the 10 Theorymons will be:

1. Technician Weavile
2. Hurricane + Lightningrod Zapdos
3. Drought Arcanine
4. Dry Skin + Drill Run Escavalier
5. Will-o-Wisp + Recover Cresselia
6. Heal Bell Bronzong
7. Sand Rush Darmanitan
8. Tinted Lens Flygon
9. Harvest Snorlax
10. Shift Gear + Sheer Force Metagross



I will be moving this to the OP as well. Please excuse while I clean / re-format it to better organize this broader activity that will be happening.

Normal Theorymon Mon Discussion is ALSO continuing, and will be the pool from which ideas for Viability Ranking Experiments are taken.

Rules for Theorymon Ranking/Testing:

1) NO DISCUSSION OF THEORYMON AS A METAGAME

2) Each theorymon is ONLY to be discussed INDIVIDUALLY in reference to the actual OU metagame

3) Even though we test theorymons simultaneously, each theorymon ranked will be based on theorymonning in reference to the ACTUAL OU.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE THEORYMON METAGAME

We Still have the same Rules for Theorymon Discussion:

1) Don't suggest obviously broken things. Its quite obvious that giving keldeo shell smash will make it an uber instantly. Basically, almost any substantial improvement to an already excellent pokemon will just mean its ban, and its not what we are looking for. Try to also think about less used pokemon that may see some usage in Ou with a change.

2) You are allowed to talk about abilities and moves, leave stats and typing as they are. Please dont talk about abilities like Drizzle, Drought, Snow warning, Sand stream unless you have a strong reason to do. Use your common sense, those abilities are too strong that they would change completely the metagame.

3) Say why that move or ability should be allowed to a certain pokemon. Dont just suggest shell smash keldeo when it clearly cant have that move, but instead think about realistic things, for example why bronzong could have rapid spin.

4) The goal is to talk about the changes that a certain move or ability will make to the metagame, so when you do your question be sure to post some of your thoughts about that question.

5) Dont be repetitive. If someone already asked your question, dont do it again. Check the thead before posting.

6) Only post one idea for each post. If everyone posts too many ideas, in a short time there will be nothing to discuss about. This also makes replies more easy to do.

7) Its not necessary to only post a new idea everytime, you can also just comment on a post.

8) Please refrain from Theorymons that are just adjustments to base stats-- they're not interesting, and not good for creativity nor discussion.


To make it easier to understand, here is an example of what a question should look like:

What if keldeo got ice beam?

Its actually strange that keldeo doesnt have ice beam, isnt it? Afterall almost every water pokemon learn that move, and it also have icy wind. Keldeo has always suffered the lack of coverage moves, only having icy wind to hit stuff that resists his stabs, like celebi and various dragon pokemon. With ice beam keldeo would be able to beat special defensive celebi, its most used check, easily 2koing with a specs. It would be able to murder lat@wins switching in, koing them after sr damage or 2koing with a scarf set, so defensive latias will probably see a rise in order to switching on it. Dragon dance dragonite will probably be even less used, being koed 70% of the time by a specs ice beam, though the cb one will be used more because of extreme speed which can 2ko keldeo. Thanks to ice beam, keldeo will also be able to run an hidden power of any sort, making it easier to get past defensive jellicent ,even though sp def jellicent wont be 2koed by hidden power eletric. Keldeo will probably be more difficult to handle with ice beam, though i think it doesnt solve some problems it already has, like amoongus, which can check the move and switch back getting more hp, or special defensive tentacruel which can setup toxic spikes making keldeo's like shorter and take hits reasonably well. Slowking may also see some usage, being able to tank some hits and recover his hp with regenerator and slack off, being able to paralize a calm mind keldeo trying to setup on it or phaze it with dragon tail.
Note that this example may seem to contradict rule 1, but if you think about it a change from a 55 base power to a 95 one isnt a big deal compared to what keldeo can already do. This is was also to show you that you can talk about already good pokemon, just dont exaggerate with the changes.


Remember that as always good discussions here can help you getting the community contributor badge

, so dont esitate to post!

Original OP:

So if you have already seen this thread in the Nu forum, you know whats the idea of the thread. To make it short, everyone is allowed to ask a question about a pokemon getting a different move or ability, and you guys have to talk about the changes it will have to the metagame. What is going to be used more to respond at that threath, what will be overshadowed by that threath, which check wont be usefull anymore to respond at that threath and so on. Anything you think might be worth of discussing its wellcome. You have to read some rules before posting, here they are:

Rules:

1) Don't suggest obviously broken things. Its quite obvious that giving keldeo shell smash will make it an uber instantly. Basically, almost any substantial improvement to an already excellent pokemon will just mean its ban, and its not what we are looking for. Try to also think about less used pokemon that may see some usage in Ou with a change.

2) You are allowed to talk about abilities and moves, leave stats and typing as they are. Please dont talk about abilities like Drizzle, Drought, Snow warning, Sand stream unless you have a strong reason to do. Use your common sense, those abilities are too strong that they would change completely the metagame.

3) Say why that move or ability should be allowed to a certain pokemon. Dont just suggest shell smash keldeo when it clearly cant have that move, but instead think about realistic things, for example why bronzong could have rapid spin.

4) The goal is to talk about the changes that a certain move or ability will make to the metagame, so when you do your question be sure to post some of your thoughts about that question.

5) Dont be repetitive. If someone already asked your question, dont do it again. Check the thead before posting.

6) Only post one idea for each post. If everyone posts too many ideas, in a short time there will be nothing to discuss about. This also makes replies more easy to do.

7) Its not necessary to only post a new idea everytime, you can also just comment on a post.

To make it easier to understand, here is an example of what a question should look like:

What if keldeo got ice beam?

Its actually strange that keldeo doesnt have ice beam, isnt it? Afterall almost every water pokemon learn that move, and it also have icy wind. Keldeo has always suffered the lack of coverage moves, only having icy wind to hit stuff that resists his stabs, like celebi and various dragon pokemon. With ice beam keldeo would be able to beat special defensive celebi, its most used check, easily 2koing with a specs. It would be able to murder lat@wins switching in, koing them after sr damage or 2koing with a scarf set, so defensive latias will probably see a rise in order to switching on it. Dragon dance dragonite will probably be even less used, being koed 70% of the time by a specs ice beam, though the cb one will be used more because of extreme speed which can 2ko keldeo. Thanks to ice beam, keldeo will also be able to run an hidden power of any sort, making it easier to get past defensive jellicent ,even though sp def jellicent wont be 2koed by hidden power eletric. Keldeo will probably be more difficult to handle with ice beam, though i think it doesnt solve some problems it already has, like amoongus, which can check the move and switch back getting more hp, or special defensive tentacruel which can setup toxic spikes making keldeo's like shorter and take hits reasonably well. Slowking may also see some usage, being able to tank some hits and recover his hp with regenerator and slack off, being able to paralize a calm mind keldeo trying to setup on it or phaze it with dragon tail.
Note that this example may seem to contradict rule 1, but if you think about it a change from a 55 base power to a 95 one isnt a big deal compared to what keldeo can already do. This is was also to show you that you can talk about already good pokemon, just dont exaggerate with the changes.


Remember that as always good discussions here can help you getting the community contributor badge

, so dont esitate to post!


Here i will post the links of any question. Dont be afraid of bumping an old question, especially one which was ignored, you are allowed to do so.


What if weavile got technichan?
What if blissey got scald?
What if metagross got recover?
What if tyranitar got sucker punch?
What if zadps got hurricane?
What if ferrothorn got rapid spin?
What if spiritomb got recover?
What if gyarados got brave bird?
What if garchomp got dragon dance?
What if poliwhrat got Drizzle?
What if Kyurem-b got Ice punch/icicle crash?
What if arcanine got drought?
What if latios got Aura sphere?
What if Kyurem-b got ice shard?
What if bronzong got recover?
What if landorus got hurricane?
What if metagross got shift gear?
What if starmie got calm mind?
What if archeops got rock head?
What if escavalier got dry skin?
What if kyurem got snow warning?
What if heatran got volt switch?
What if cresselia got recover?
What if aerodactyl got head smash?
What if bronzong got heal bell?
What if snorlax got slack off?
What if meloetta could start in pirouette forme?
What if gengar got nasty plot?
What if cobalion got Heatproof?
What if togekiss got hurricane?
What if rotom got motor drive?
What if snorlax got guts?
What if smeargle got prankster?
What if ferrothorn got roar?
What if latias got magic bounce?
What if hydreygon got nasty plot?
What if flygon got tinted lens?
What if dragonite got serene grace?
What if moltres got magic guard?
What if latias got multiscale?
What if claydol got recover?
What if shuckle got leech seed?
What if dragonite got weather ball?
What if gyarados got roost?
What if latios got focus blast?
What if cofagrigus got recover?
What if gengar got prankster?
What if armaldo got sand rush?
What if stoutland got head charge?

 

[ciaranroy]

Great thread, my kind of thing.

I'm going to say Technician with Weavile. Technician would be perfect flavor-wise and competitively for Weavile. It would have a definite edge over the likes of Mamoswine and Scizor as a priority user and pursuit trapper. It would almost definitely be mid OU at least with Technician, and Mamoswine would almost be completely outclassed as a dragon killer, probably dropping out of OU. Weavile would be able to revenge Venusaur after Stealth Rock, something that is almost unheard of in this metagame. Unfortunately, most of its other moves just miss the Technician cutoff, like Ice Punch and Night Slash, but a boosted Ice Shard and Pursuit are irresistible on the same pokemon. Not to mention that it could actually be an effective Swords Dance sweeper with the stronger priority, even if it will still have trouble setting up. It would most likely become the ultimate anti-meta pokemon that Mamoswine has been these past two generations. It's new founded ability to kill every dragon in OU (unless they are scarfed), Venusaur and Landorus whilst beating JelliTran is not too shabby at all.

 

[Nyktos]

Unfortunately, most of its other moves just miss the Technician cutoff, like Ice Punch and Night Slash, but a boosted Ice Shard and Pursuit are irresistible on the same pokemon.

It gets Bite and Low Sweep as well.

 

[ciaranroy]

It gets Bite and Low Sweep as well.

Ah, even better. I think Low Kick would still be preferable to Low Sweep due to it being very powerful against the likes of Heatran, Terrakion and Ferrothorn. But Bite would help it by being stronger than Night Slash. I forgot to mention its amazing speed tier too, outspeeding all relevant threats (Jolteon sucks) and conveniently hitting every pokemon above 110 spped for super effective damage. It could even see use as a scarfer.

 

[Neliel]

Great thread, my kind of thing.

I'm going to say Technician with Weavile. Technician would be perfect flavor-wise and competitively for Weavile. It would have a definite edge over the likes of Mamoswine and Scizor as a priority user and pursuit trapper. It would almost definitely be mid OU at least with Technician, and Mamoswine would almost be completely outclassed as a dragon killer, probably dropping out of OU. Weavile would be able to revenge Venusaur after Stealth Rock, something that is almost unheard of in this metagame. Unfortunately, most of its other moves just miss the Technician cutoff, like Ice Punch and Night Slash, but a boosted Ice Shard and Pursuit are irresistible on the same pokemon. Not to mention that it could actually be an effective Swords Dance sweeper with the stronger priority, even if it will still have trouble setting up. It would most likely become the ultimate anti-meta pokemon that Mamoswine has been these past two generations. It's new founded ability to kill every dragon in OU (unless they are scarfed), Venusaur and Landorus whilst beating JelliTran is not too shabby at all.

nice question! while i agree with you that technichan weavile will be way more used, and probably a worthy a slot for your team, i dont think it will completely outclass mamoswine. Mamoswine has a different typing that lets it also check things like cm jirachi, and thanks to its typing it can switch in into thundurus, something that weavile cant do. Weavile also is weak to stealth rock, which is a big issue, and mamoswine can count on a good support move in the form of stealth rock. Also, i think its completely out of question a sword dance set even with tech, it will have zero chance to setup one, and even then there are a lot of things that resists it. Just remember that it can use bite which have 60 base power, and low kick will be at least 90 base power, still better thank brick break. With this said, i can say that weavile wouldnt have enough impact to metagame to determinate a decrease of pursuit weak things, we already have tyranitar that makes psichic types useless, and even with tech weavile wont outclass it. Maybe it will be used more in rain teams.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

If Blissey could learn Scald, would people really use it? Of course the possibility to burn incoming attackers is great, but a base 80 unstabbed attack is particularly pitiful, especially with Blissey's low special attack. Burn also clashes a lot with Blissey's other status moves it may need to use actually combat special attackers.

Great thread, my kind of thing.

I'm going to say Technician with Weavile. Technician would be perfect flavor-wise and competitively for Weavile. It would have a definite edge over the likes of Mamoswine and Scizor as a priority user and pursuit trapper. It would almost definitely be mid OU at least with Technician, and Mamoswine would almost be completely outclassed as a dragon killer, probably dropping out of OU. Weavile would be able to revenge Venusaur after Stealth Rock, something that is almost unheard of in this metagame. Unfortunately, most of its other moves just miss the Technician cutoff, like Ice Punch and Night Slash, but a boosted Ice Shard and Pursuit are irresistible on the same pokemon. Not to mention that it could actually be an effective Swords Dance sweeper with the stronger priority, even if it will still have trouble setting up. It would most likely become the ultimate anti-meta pokemon that Mamoswine has been these past two generations. It's new founded ability to kill every dragon in OU (unless they are scarfed), Venusaur and Landorus whilst beating JelliTran is not too shabby at all.

Weavile would certainly get a lot of use as a check, on top of checking dragons and Landorus checking Venusaur is certainly a great feat. A technican boosted pursuit is never a bad thing either.

I am doubting its effectiveness as a sweeper though honestly, a technician boosted Ice Shard is still piss weak for actually sweeping, it would suffer the same problems as SD Weavile faces now: Stealth Rock, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, frailty, and even Extreme Speed, overall lacking the power to sweep in anything but the end game.

Overall, I think the physical attacker set would see great use, but the swords dance set will be a poor choice.

 

[GGengar]

What if Metagross got Recover?

Metagross is a mediocre offensive mon with fantastic defensive typing. We all know how frustrating it is to take out Wish Jirachi so what if Metagross, a Pokemon with similar typing and solid 80/130/90 bulk got access to reliable recovery? It has an okay support movepool in Toxic, Stealth Rock, Dual Screens, Trick, etc. and a great attack stat to pose an offensive presence I could imagine this could become a solid physically defensive dragon wall that doesn't get fucked by Magnezone.

 

[Leafshield]

What if Tyranitar learned Sucker Punch?

I'm not sure why it doesn't learn it already, to be honest. Sucker Punch Tyranitar wouldn't be revolutionary, but I think it would be a welcomed addition to non-Choiced sets due to its ability to hit Latios, Latias, and Starmie, as well as Alakazam and Gengar (though Gengar is a shaky example, as most of them run Sub) before they get the chance to fire off their high powered Special Attacks. Of course, Sucker Punch is always good for the usual picking off of weakened sweepers, such as Keldeo. I think it would be an interesting change for Tyranitar, to say the least. But, Sucker Punch is easy to play around, so it may be sort of difficult to pull off, causing people to continue to use the current standard Choice and Lead sets. I still think it would see some use, though.

Some calcs, just to see how I find it could be useful against the Lati-Twins and Starmie.

Latias

Offensive

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 294-348 (97.35 - 115.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Calm Mind

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 294-348 (80.76 - 95.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Latios

Standard

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 320-380 (106.31 - 126.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Starmie

Standard

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 306-362 (117.24 - 138.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive Rapid Spin

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 306-362 (94.44 - 111.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not too shabby, if I do say so.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

What if Zapdos could learn Hurricane?

It's a shame GF didn't allow Zapdos to learn Hurricane (since both Articuno and Moltres learn it), as it would have amazing coverage with just it's STABs. What I'm thinking about is would Zapdos outclass Thundurus-T as a rain sweeper? There are a few differences between the two (Thundurus-T gets Nasty Plot, has higher special attack, more speed, and Focus Blast, while Zapdos has Hurricane, more bulk, Roost, and Heat Wave), but I believe Zapdos would see higher usage, as it checks top threats such as Landorus, Breloom, and Scizor much more reliably than Thundurus-T. I think the most popular set would be something along the lines of a bulky Zapdos with Thunder, Hurricane, Roost, and HP Ice. Although I see the possibility of a sweeping Agility set.

 

[Prinz]

What if Tyranitar learned Sucker Punch?

I'm not sure why it doesn't learn it already, to be honest. Sucker Punch Tyranitar wouldn't be revolutionary, but I think it would be a welcomed addition to non-Choiced sets due to its ability to hit Latios, Latias, and Starmie, as well as Alakazam and Gengar (though Gengar is a shaky example, as most of them run Sub) before they get the chance to fire off their high powered Special Attacks. Of course, Sucker Punch is always good for the usual picking off of weakened sweepers, such as Keldeo. I think it would be an interesting change for Tyranitar, to say the least. But, Sucker Punch is easy to play around, so it may be sort of difficult to pull off, causing people to continue to use the current standard Choice and Lead sets. I still think it would see some use, though.

Some calcs, just to see how I find it could be useful against the Lati-Twins, Starmie, and some weak sweepers.

Latias

Offensive

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 294-348 (97.35 - 115.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Calm Mind

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 294-348 (80.76 - 95.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Latios

Standard

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 320-380 (106.31 - 126.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Starmie

Standard

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 306-362 (117.24 - 138.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive Rapid Spin

252 Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 306-362 (94.44 - 111.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I am not really sure about the efficacy of a hypothetic Sucker Punch Tyranitar. For sure it can OHKO Gengar, Lati Twins and Alakazam before they attack it but it's, as you already said, easily to play around and a simple Substitute Gengar can be a pain to deal with if it uses Substitute while Tyranitar fails with its Sucker Punch. However, Sucker Punch + Pursuit is a pretty good combination so if Sucker Punch would be available we would see more and more Tyranitar with Sucker Punch and Pursuit instead of Pursuit and Crunch. Perhaps, if people really like Sucker Punch's benefits we would see less Choice Band Tyranitar too, since Sucker Punch on a Choice user is really bad (it would allow lots of chances to setup to mons like Terrakion and Lucario for example) and we would probably see more Specially Defensive Tyranitar like when Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus weren't around, not sure about this as well though. CB Tyranitar is really good and can support well the greatest sweepers available so CB ones will keep common and Sucker Punch won't be much used. Sucker Punch would be just another option on Specially Defensive Tyranitar in my opinion, better than Crunch if you have a good prediction, worse than Crunch if you haven't.

@ GGengar: Recover Metagross would be a pretty cool pivot for offensive teams, balanced team and even for some defensive teams I guess. Metagross has already good statistics overall, and with Recover it would be for sure better than now. Recover Metagross should be able to check Dragon-types pretty well and to have a offensive presence at the same time. Definitely a mon to not undervalue, Jirachi will probably have a deserving rival.

 

[Gary]

What if Ferrothorn learned Rapid Spin?

Yes this may sound extremely odd, but if you take a look at Ferroseed:

It would seem plausible that Ferroseed could learn Rapid Spin, then carry it over into its evolution. Ferrothorn would be one hell of a spinner if it did indeed get Rapid Spin, because with its amazing defensive typing and access to STAB Power Whip, Ferrothorn could actually beat other spinners that may try to keep Ferrothorn from setting up its own hazards, such as Donphan and Starmie. It could also beat Jellicent, one of the best spin blockers in OU, and even Gengar with Gyro Ball on a predicted switch. Honestly, this thing would probably be one of the best rapid spinners in the entire game, not just because of it's ability to beat out other spinners and spin blockers and its useful resistances, but also because of how amazing its supporting movepool is to help its teammates. It could spin, setup hazards, cripple, sap health with Leech Seed, and fight back. Definitely something that I would enjoy trying out in a theorymon battle. Something like this would be awesome:

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Spikes/Stealth Rock
- Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
- Leech Seed/Gyro Ball

 

[Leafshield]

I am not really sure about the efficacy of a hypothetic Sucker Punch Tyranitar. For sure it can OHKO Gengar, Lati Twins and Alakazam before they attack it but it's, as you already said, easily to play around a simple Substitute Gengar can be a pain to deal with. However, Sucker Punch + Pursuit is a pretty good combination so if Sucker Punch would be available we would see more and more Tyranitar with Sucker Punch and Pursuit instead of Pursuit of Crunch.

Yeah, like I said, I don't think it would become a staple on TTar, per say, but I think it would see some use on more bulky offensive sets. The idea of Sucker Punch + Pursuit brings up a good point, creating automatic mind games with the opponent's Psychic-Type or Ghost-Type. But, as you agreed with me on, Sub Gengar kinda shits on the entire idea, making it immediate SubDisable bait, for the most part. Another downside is that Sucker Punch fails to even 3HKO standard Scarf Keldeo after SR and Sand, and only manages to 2HKO standard OTR Reuniclus, coming down to a damage roll for a 2HKO on the CM variant. I'm not exactly sure how often it would be used or what effect it would have on the course of a match, but I just thought it would be a nifty tool to take care of various problem Pokemon for TTar, such as the aforementioned Latias and Latios.

EDIT: I just saw your edited post, and I agree with you on that it would see use mainly on the Specially Defensive set over Crunch, as Choice locking yourself into Sucker Punch only allows for mons such as Lucario, Haxorus, and Conkelduur to set up all over you.

As for the topic presented in the OP, Ice Beam Keldeo would be a rather interesting Pokémon. The OP is correct in saying that most Water-Types learn Ice Beam, so Keldeo getting would make sense, flavor-wise. One major plus to having Ice Beam is to not rely on the weak Icy Wind to hit Grass-Types hard. Ice Beam would be a welcome tool against common mons like Breloom, Celebi, and Tornadus for sure, doing much more damage than the common coverage Hidden Power Ghost or Ice (I'm still p sure HP Bug does more to Celebi for obvious reasons.). All in all, I think it would be pretty interesting, and aid Keldeo in cleaning up weakened teams on its Scarf set or giving it nifty coverage on the CM + 3 Attacks set.

 

[saxtonhale]

What if Spiritomb got Recover?

Spiritomb, with the proper investments, solid attacking stats and WOW access, can be a truly formidable wall, and is a major asset to my UU stall team. A bulky spinblocker like 'Tomb would kill to get Recover, and I think access to it would make Spiritomb a major threat even in the upper tiers, and it would become common on lots of stall teams.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

What if Spiritomb got Recover?

Spiritomb, with the proper investments, solid attacking stats and WOW access, can be a truly formidable wall, and is a major asset to my UU stall team. A bulky spinblocker like 'Tomb would kill to get Recover, and I think access to it would make Spiritomb a major threat even in the upper tiers, and it would become common on lots of stall teams.

Eh, I'm not too sure that Spiritomb would be good in OU. I mean even with Recover, it's still taunt bait and is generally out classed by Jellicent, because of Jellicent's immunity to water type attacks. Although Spiritomb is bulky, it's still out sped and 2HKO'd by a lot of Pokemon, meaning it wouldn't get a chance to use Recover. Just think of a slightly bulkier Sableye without Prankster...yeah, kinda sucks right?

 

[Bulgrom]

Rapid spin Ferrothorn would be ridiculously useful. Seeing how great it is now, it may become the most used mon in OU with it. The quintessential utility pokemon, hazards spin and rain/dragon check, all in one! Forry would quickly drop to UU too (yay volt switch + rapid spin, what a niche).


Now, What if Gyarados got Brave Bird?

One of Gyara's main flaws is his lack of a good second stab, which forces it to run the unreliable Bounce. However, with Brave Bird, problem solved! Celebi, usually a good answer, especially with Perish Song, would be totally helpless. Same for Sub Toxicroak, who would not be able to counter the DD set anymore. Generally, a second stab would be handy in many situation, against foes who resist waterfall (Ferrothorn is cleanly 2HKO by the bulky set at +1, and so are most of the dragons).
The sets which would benefit the most of this change would probably be the DD ones, since they would be harder to stop, although the choices sets would like it too.
If it happens, rain teams would have a nice boost, as Gyara works obviously well on rain, and his ability to bypass Celebi, unlike most of his fellow rain sweepers would be great. Rotom-W, his main counter, would be seen more often too in the "check rain" role. And naturally, stuff checked by Gyara, like Scizor, would decrease in usage proportionally.

 

[Subject 18]

I was going to come and post Hurricane Zapdos but ShootingStarmie beat me to it. After some thinking I came up with another idea.

What if Garchomp learned Dragon Dance?

We all know how dangerous Chomp is after getting up a Swords Dance. Once this happens nothing can safely take hit from it. However, it's base 102 speed tends to be a drawback as it makes is susceptible to being revenge killed by Latios, Keldeo, Starmie with Ice Beam. Having Dragon Dance would help alleviate that issue and give Garchomp some extra speed to outspeed it's possible revenge killers. A possible set with Dragon Dance could look like something like this:

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly or Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance

Or

Garchomp @ Lum Berry
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly or Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Dragon Dance

Some set ideas, might need some tweaking but I'm something with more experience can give some feedback.

 

[cjrocker]

I've been waiting for a topic like this. Great ideas so far, here's one I've often thought about:

What if Poliwrath had gotten Drizzle instead of Politoed?

Why GF chose to bless Politoed of all Water-types with Drizzle is anybody's guess, but what would change if Poliwrath had it instead? First, let's see how their stats compare.

Poliwrath: 90/85/95/70/90/70
Politoed: 90/75/75/90/100/70

Poliwrath trades special for physical bulk with a 90/95/90 defensive spread, unfortunately his 85 attack stat means he is stuck using Waterfall as his Water stab. Although not as strong as Hydro Pump and lacking a 30% burn chance, its 20% chance to flinch could come in handy. What separates Poliwrath the most from his brethren, though, is his dual Water/Fighting typing. Although this grants him an unfortunate weakness to Psychic and Flying (hello Hurricane), it also means he is not walled by the pink blobs and is better equipped to take on fellow weather starter Tyranitar. Unfortunately his strongest Fighting move other than the unreliable DynamicPunch is Submission, although he does get a phazing move in Circle Throw. I don't know if rain would be better or worse with Poliwrath instead of Politoed as its weather starter, but I imagine the metagame would be a bit different in response.

 

[GCSChris]

What if Kyurem-B got Ice Punch/Icicle Crash?
The main reason that Kyurem-B fell to Ubers with that godly attack stat was the lack of a reliable Ice-type STAB. On that note, I find it a bit unreasonable that this monster doesn't get to punch ice, I mean just look at his left arm; you'd think that he could punch in an icy fasion.

In my opinion, one I believe just about everyone would agree with, is that if Kyurem-B got Ice Punch, it would not have fell to Ubers. It wouldn't have to run mixed sets for coverage, and it is the prime example of a Pokemon with great stats but a shallow move pool. While, still weak to Stealth Rock, Kyurem-W is as well and it still proves to be pretty solid in Ubers, being #19 on the most recent Ubers 1850 stats. Kyurem-W also has a great move pool, having access to Draco Meteor, Blizzard, Ice Beam, and Fusion Flare. Icicle Crash would be even crazier.

So one more question I have is, if Kyurem-B received a reliable, physical Ice-type STAB right now (obviously that wouldn't happen, but bare with me), what would result? Ubers? If not, how would it affect the meta?

 

[Houndoomsday]

I've been waiting for a topic like this. Great ideas so far, here's one I've often thought about:

What if Poliwrath had gotten Drizzle instead of Politoed?

Why GF chose to bless Politoed of all Water-types with Drizzle is anybody's guess, but what would change if Poliwrath had it instead? First, let's see how their stats compare.

Poliwrath: 90/85/95/70/90/70
Politoed: 90/75/75/90/100/70

Poliwrath trades special for physical bulk with a 90/95/90 defensive spread, unfortunately his 85 attack stat means he is stuck using Waterfall as his Water stab. Although not as strong as Hydro Pump and lacking a 30% burn chance, its 20% chance to flinch could come in handy. What separates Poliwrath the most from his brethren, though, is his dual Water/Fighting typing. Although this grants him an unfortunate weakness to Psychic and Flying (hello Hurricane), it also means he is not walled by the pink blobs and is better equipped to take on fellow weather starter Tyranitar. Unfortunately his strongest Fighting move other than the unreliable DynamicPunch is Submission, although he does get a phazing move in Circle Throw. I don't know if rain would be better or worse with Poliwrath instead of Politoed as its weather starter, but I imagine the metagame would be a bit different in response.

I think it would be neat if both had gotten Drizzle. This would certainly have made constructing rain quite interesting, and you would have a sand-esque situation, with choices. Even if one was superior (ex. Tyranitar>Hippodown in most teams), it would still give a niche weather inducer no matter what.

Anyways, I'd like to ask we make the discussion a little more focused (maybe offer up a Pokemon to theorymon about every few days), as it seems a little chaotic right now.

 

[Leafshield]

Yeah, that's how I'm feeling about it. I think we should focus on the sample theory in the OP until we decide to spark up a new conversation.

As a refresher the theory in the OP is What if Keldeo got Ice Beam?

I'll go ahead and post my previous comment on it for reference:

Ice Beam Keldeo would be a rather interesting Pokémon. The OP is correct in saying that most Water-Types learn Ice Beam, so Keldeo getting would make sense, flavor-wise. One major plus to having Ice Beam is to not rely on the weak Icy Wind to hit Grass-Types hard. Ice Beam would be a welcome tool against common mons like Breloom, Celebi, and Tornadus for sure, doing much more damage than the common coverage Hidden Power Ghost or Ice (I'm still p sure HP Bug does more to Celebi for obvious reasons.). All in all, I think it would be pretty interesting, and aid Keldeo in cleaning up weakened teams on its Scarf set or giving it nifty coverage on the CM + 3 Attacks set.

 

[Houndoomsday]

Ice Beam frees up Hidden Power for Keldeo, which is huge as it can run electric or (now somewhat unnecessary as it has Ice Beam for Celebi) bug. This allows it's scarf set to have slightly larger coverage, and makes it very hard to take down Keldeo.

Running Ice Beam/HP Electric/Secret Sword/Hydro Pump in rain, very little is not 2HKO'd. The main threats to Keldeo are now: Jellicent Special Wall (4HKO'd by HP Electric), Slowking (3HKO'd by HP Electric, can kill with Psychic or whatever), and Cresselia (Not guaranteed 2HKO, and can kill with Psychic type attacks). Basically Keldeo has very little non-niche counters if Scarfed and given Ice Beam!

 

[Jaiho]

What if Arcanine got Drought?

In OU, it is a constant battle of weather between two behemoths, the stone plated dinosaur and the derpy frog. This constant battle has led to bans, (excadrill and swift swim). Meanwhile, the third important weather inducer, ninetales, is left in the dust, unable to 2HKO either when outside sun. Thus Arcanine!

Arcanine is FAR more powerful than ninetales, has better bulk, and even has semi-reliable recovery in morning sun. But on top of that, Life Orb Arcanine can OHKO all variants of T-tar with close combat, while only fearing a surprise scarf set, and can 2HKO defensive Politoed with wild charge. It also hits hard with STAB flare blitz, and revenge kills with extremespeed. it does have problems with recoil moves though, especially with life orb, 4MSS, as it wants close combat, wild charge, flare blitz, extremespeed, and morning sun, the stealth rock weakness, and middling base 95 speed. However, Arcanine could be a very prominent threat, and could possibly lead to a ban of chlorophyll + drought, or maybe an unbanning of swift swim + drizzle or excadrill.

Thoughts?

Edit: Sorry, i didn't see that we were centralizing the thread

 

[MikeDawg]

What if Latios and Latias got Aura Sphere?

One of the largest issues for the two eon pokemon is tyranitar (among other pursuit trappers). Scizor, though, can be dealth with by using HP Fire, but the two don't have much besides specs surf to deal with TTar. With aura sphere, this changes (while also offering practically perfect coverage in general alongside the dragon stab)

252 SpA Expert Belt Latios Aura Sphere vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 475-562 (123.05 - 145.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

@ Ice Beam Keldeo: It seems like this is actually an example of something that would push a Pokemon over the edge and make it broken ironically. All of Keldeo's usual counters are all 2HKOed by +1 Ice Beam, all that is left is Slowking and stupidly defensive Latias

Latios with Aura Sphere also seems to push this, getting rid of the main way to combat it, leaving only Scizor and Jirachi.

Poliwrath with Drizzle is very interesting, it would arguably make a better Pokemon for stall teams, as it has circle throw as a nice phasing move, Perish Song is nice for stall, but a real phasing move it much better now, especially with the falling use of Reuniclus.

 

[Jukain]

Obviously, Ice Beam Keldeo would be very, very good. I think that's undeniable; if Keldeo could be improved in any way, it would be learning Ice Beam. The fact is, Ice Beam provides a lot of utility against what we'd call Keldeo's counters now. Celebi and Latias become liabilities as opposed to counters, being unable to handle Keldeo's onslaught. Because we rely on them to really keep Keldeo in check, there would be more than a few issues. I don't see Icy Wind having any practical applications with Ice Beam in the mix, as it becomes completely and utterly outclassed. Moreover, Ice Beam frees up a slot for Hidden Power Psychic or Electric. They both handle Tentacruel; the former also hits Toxicroak and the latter Jellicent. This would mean Keldeo would have one counter depending on which set it runs. I wouldn't say it'd be broken per se, as there are still enough checks and revenge killers available in OU, but it'd definitely get better. Broken? Maybe. Improved? Hell yes.