Policy Review Thread Hogging

Birkal

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I know this thread is considerably late in the Policy Review cycle for CAP 20, but it's something that has been on the back of my mind for quite some time. Our current policy for thread hogging varies significantly from stage to stage of the CAP Process. Our most lax rules are found in the competitive stages, particularly during Concept Assessment and all Movepool Discussion threads. In those stages, deleting posts is not only at moderator discretion, but even slanted towards the scope of competitive CAP moderators. On the other hand, our flavor submissions have the most stringent of thread hogging rules, most notably the Art Submissions thread, where we have extremely limiting guidelines on post timing and post content.

This can get frustrating for both moderators and contributors, naturally. So as a Policy Review Committee, we need to consider what we value most. As a community project, we want everyone's contribution to have equal opportunity to be seen/read. Threadhoggers infringe on that, knowingly or unknowingly. Therefore, what rules are reasonable to manage threadhogging?

I have a few proposals here for us to consider. Remember, the goal here is to make sure everyone's contributions are visible. The amount of work required by moderators or what "feels right" may not actually be our best selection.


1) Relax the posting rules on flavor threads (particularly Art Submissions), but still maintain threadhogging rules. With this, I propose we set a 48 hour limit on all posters in flavor threads. If you have something new to post, edit it into your original post. Otherwise, take a chill pill and wait out the remaining hours. This would be much more simplistic and easy to understand, yet still impose some hard limits for moderators to utilize.

2) Remove posting restrictions entirely and leave the management of threadhogging up to the moderators. This option would open us up to accusations of bias, but it is a more consistent way of managing threadhogging. Be cautioned that threadhogging could still occur when a moderator is not online (although I suppose this could still happen in Option 1). It frees posters while instituting a gray area of interpretation for moderators.

3) Tighten the posting restrictions on competitive stages. Currently, most of our competitive stages are moderated at the discretion of the moderators and the topic leaders. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it may inadvertently cause threadhogging and derail a discussion. Topic leaders may also have different definitions of what constitutes as threadhogging, which can result in butting heads with the CAP moderation team.

4) Some other proposal that I haven't listed here. There are a lot of ways we could solve this problem.​


So what do you think? Again, please respond to the bolded questions above before siding with an option. Thanks for your time!
 

Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
I guess I'll kick it off?
Thread Hogging isn't a problem I've seen in a while during competitive stages, there are a couple of different reasons for this. So lets talk about the kind of posts that are most often infracted for thread hogging, and what kind of posts detract the most from both competitive threads and flavor threads. I'll also go in to why (possibly) that the current system is what we came up with after so many years of making fake Pokemon.

What is thread hogging?

Thread Hogging, when infracted, usually consists of two parts:

1.) Consistent, frequent posting to the point of overshadowing other opinions.
The main point behind thread hogging is this, and is arguably the most important part of the offense. However, I feel that without the second element, it's not an infractable offense. Most people who do this are just excited about the project and want to talk about it. If we moderate thread hogging incorrectly, we could end up killing some contributors who will later produce wonderful amounts of content for CAP - something no one wants to do.

2.) Lack of useful or new content and ideas within said posts.
This is what makes a thread hogging poster infractable. Without this, it's completely possible that their posts are strong enough to the point where it actually encourages community conversation. Giving other people a person to respond to is a huge part of creating a diverse, intelligent discussion. In fact, I'd argue that this is even one of the reasons the TLT exists in the first place; to give a target to the masses so that we can have as effective of a conversation as possible.

Why this creates (and requires) stricter rules in flavor threads

In flavor threads, it becomes increasingly difficult to separate a quality post from a post that lacks 'new or useful' content. Artists want to share every variation of their design: with feathers, without, different color schemes, everything you could possibly think can and will be posted. Which is good. Artists want help on their designs and making it better. Unfortunately, this is part of the reason it becomes a problem. Even though the artist may not consider their posts to be low quality, it quickly comes to a point where we have 30 posts about the same damn design in the last 2 days. And, as hard as it is to swallow for that artist, not everyone cares about their design. This artificially lowers the quality of their posts due to the lack of interest from some, maybe even small, portion of the user base.
Competitive threads, however, it's much easier to discern a large amount of low quality posts. If three posts say the exact same thing, two get removed. Super simple. No arguments, no drama, just removed junk. This makes it extremely easy to moderate, and extremely easy to self police yourself - all you have to ask yourself is "Has this already been said?" and, if it has, just not say it.

How to effectively handle (and identify) thread hogging and how to realize when it's actually encouraging discussion

So again, for thread hogging to actually be thread hogging it needs both elements: high posting frequency and a comparatively low content frequency. If there is both high posting and high content, I'd argue that it's not a problem and will actually encourage discussion.
If moderators can effectively identify thread hogging, it should be a simple matter to decide what steps should be taken to handle the problem. The relative lack of rules in competitive stages is a reflection of this. If it's easy to identify, it's easy to handle.
In flavor, where it's harder to handle, all rules should either be geared towards either making the poster think "Hey, maybe this post is too low of content to be worth posting" or to making it easier to identify so that moderators can effectively handle it. Proposals like the 48 hour posting limit do this exceptionally; it allows people to cool down before posting and gives moderators more time to decide if someone is thread hogging.

As long as our changes are geared towards those goals, any changes will be fine with me. Lets get this sorted out quickly so we don't have to wait to implement anything we decide.
 

nyttyn

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I'm agreeing with Ignus in that this really isn't a problem on the competitive side of things. People just limit how often they post, and if they post too frequently or w/e, they just get warned, shit gets deleted, everyone moves on, no big deal. Obviously this becomes harder in the flavor steps, where people are a lot more emotionally passionate, and want to tell the world ALL ABOUT THEIR DESIGN or gush all about a favored one or etc.

Since people are kind of dumb about this kind of thing and since there's really no reason to post frequently in an art thread, I'd advocate for a post cooldown limit. One every 24-48 hours or so should be well more than enough - afterall, if you're giving feedback, it's best to wait and do it in lots anyways, and if you're posting more stuff about your design/new designs, having a cooldown period gives you time to do more quality stuff instead of just vomiting up a five minute sketch you thought was SO COOL!

Again, I don't really see this happen in the competitive side of things and I usually only look at the art posts themselves and not the other posts, but a post cooldown limit seems reasonable, because people do kind of have a hard time keeping themselves in check. I can't think of any reason why anyone would need to post more than once a day in an art/name/dex thread anyway, and there's always the CAP kitchen if they absolutely cannot help themselves (and that thing needs to get used more anyway so win/win).

probably have it be a 22/46 hour cooldown instead of 24/48 though to give a bit more leeway for when people want to post the next day but only have that one hour bloc to post in.
 

Bughouse

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My short two cents are that I don't care if someone is hogging a competitive stage as long as it's clearly well-formed argumentation.

This falls under the "tell a CAP mod if a post(s) is bad," imo.
 

Oglemi

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If I'm being honest, the post limiting is in my opinion the single largest deterrent to continued/good CAP participation right now, and is one of the major things I pointed to in the last big post I made here. It's strangleholding the excitement and hype that used to be built in the flavor threads, particularly the artwork. If you need to set a standard for combating threadhogging (kinda like what dy8 did for his Snake), then set a rule in the OP that states moderators may limit your posting habits if they feel you're posting too much. Any more formal limiting is bad for the community, particularly anything that limits posts per day(s), and especially in the competitive threads where it isn't really an issue right now.

Basically, option 2 is a good direction to take. Just err on the side of leniency to start and limit as the thread(s) goes on.
 

DougJustDoug

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Here is a quote of a long post from a mod conversation in August 2013 when we were discussing the rules posted in the OP of the art thread. This is a long read, but for anyone interested in the context behind the issues of threadhogging and the current posting limits, this should be informative.

Remember, the following was written BEFORE we had posting limits, and was brought up when were were talking about the need to revamp our rules for the art thread, which was getting way out of hand at that time in many different ways...

Mod Conversation in August 2013 said:
Thread Hogging, Spamming Art, Hyperactive Posting, etc.

This is a big problem in the art thread. Despite the fact that we have a bazillion rules basically telling people to chill the fuck out and not spam the art thread with posts (art or comments, because both have problems), we still have a few users every CAP that just can't seem to control themselves.

We do not have clear rules as to how much posting is considered thread hogging or spamming art, and I think we need to set some exact limits. Right now, it is completely up to mod discretion, which is fine for other threads. But as has been a running theme in this convo -- the art thread is different.

I think most thread hogging and art spam in the art thread is innocent over-enthusiasm, particularly when it comes to hyperactive commenters. I think there are some artists that spam art to keep their design fresh in everyone's minds, but I don't think it is some devious attempt to gain advantage on other artists.

At the end of the day, the goal here is to give everyone a fair opportunity to post their designs and get feedback, that is all. Here's a few things we DON'T want:
  • We do not want the CAP submission thread to be some game where artists have to spam art repeatedly in order to "keep up" with others.
  • We do not want artists to gain advantage in the polls simply because they flood the art thread with pictures.
  • We do not want a design to gain advantage if a small number of supporters spam the art thread with discussion on their favorite art.
  • We do not want a small number of commenters to dominate the thread which gives a false perception of the community consensus opinion on the designs submitted.
In a nutshell, we want quality, not quantity -- from both commenters and artists.

I think we should just set a maximum number of posts over certain periods of time.

I know artists tend to work in bursts, and I don't want to prevent artists from getting feedback. But I don't think artists should be allowed to monopolize entire pages of the submission thread through sheer volume of posts. Remember, when good art is posted, there tends to be a wave of comments after it. So if a good artist posts updates or sketch poses and other supporting art at relatively regular intervals, they can pretty much dominate the entire thread for long stretches of time. When artists have a group of avid supporters that post glowing commentary after every art post, the "domination effect" is even more pronounced.

In the early days of the CAP project, we allowed commenters to quote full art in their comment posts. And, of course, later on we learned that people were intentionally abusing that to sway the polls. On one project, there was a "team" of users that had a favorite design and they cooked up a scheme with the artist to systematically ensure that every page of the submission thread was flooded with the design repeatedly in quote tags. They would even remind each other in the CAP server mainchat to go post praise in the submission thread regularly, and would scold users that did not include the quoted picture because "The full picture bumps the art without the artist getting infracted for bumping" (paraphrase of an actual chat comment).

People are VERY AWARE of how post volume impacts community perception in the art thread, and even if artists or commenters are not organized and devious about it -- many people are "gaming the thread" to a certain extent. I have heard many artists lament that they just don't have time to churn out enough support art to keep their design bumped often enough in the art thread in order for it to do well in the polls. I personally don't know how much it impacts polling results, but that is besides the point. I HATE that artists feel obligated to play that kind of game with the submission thread and polls.

Ultimately, it comes down to a single design picture in the polls and that should be the focus. I know that supporting art is included in the final submission post and is linked from the polls -- but the vast majority of voters do not look at the final submission posts when voting. They look at the single main design pic. And for posterity, we only keep the main design on the CAP site.

Back when the CAP project was first getting off the ground, we wanted more art posted in the art thread, so we really encouraged supporting art pics. Now I'm not so sure supporting art is really good for the project. I'm not suggesting we ban it or even discourage it. But I honestly feel like supporting art is mostly used for gaming the submission thread (intentionally or not) and probably hurts our project from having an "even playing field" art competition. The art submission thread is great advertising for the CAP project and I want it to be a thread that everyone enjoys perusing, which means we need plenty of good art posts. But I'd like to cut out a lot of the attention-hogging that seems to be a semi-requirement these days in order to do well in the polls.

The same goes for commenters. There are some people that feel like their one mission in life is to post commentary on every single artwork submitted, and they feel obligated to comment as soon as a new design or sketch is posted. While I appreciate the enthusiasm -- these people are bad for the project. As an artist, I like getting feedback. But when someone is posting constantly in the thread, it creates a very skewed perception of consensus, and can impact the designs produced by artists.

On one CAP project (can't remember which one, so I'll just make it up, but the general problem really happened) there was a commenter who wanted a big bulky design for the CAP, and was upset that most artists were making fast and nimble designs (which I think was the majority community opinion). This one poster spammed comment after comment on every design posted, and always included some form of "It needs to look bigger and bulkier" or "I like that you made it big and bulky", depending on the design. Eventually, the poll came out and nimble fast designs overwhelmingly finished at the top of the poll. One artist that finished lower than they expected, asked in CAP chat why people didn't favor their design, and many people said "You made it too bulky, even though it's pretty obvious that everyone wanted something speedy-looking". The artist then mentioned that he actually changed his design to be bulkier because the feedback in the art submission thread seemed to be clamoring for bulky designs. I went back into the thread and counted comments, and almost all the "bulky support" came from a couple of posters, and the vast majority of those posts were from one single commenter. I remember being surprised that one guy could have that much impact.

Ever since then, I have tried to keep a closer eye on thread-hogging commenters. Prior to that, I tended to focus on artists spamming art posts, and tended to think that hyperactive commenters were harmless at worst and probably helpful. Most casual comments are simple "I like it" or whatever -- and don't really help artists improve their designs. Most hyperactive commenters give detailed feedback, so back then I considered it a net positive for the thread. Now I don't think it is such a good thing. Even if their comments are detailed constructive commentary -- it is really just the viewpoint of one single voter in the community. And when one single viewpoint gets a disproportionate portion of "air time" in the submission thread, it is probably NOT a good thing for the project. So we need to take steps to ensure a fair and even airing of all opinions, even if it means telling some enthusiastic, well-intentioned art critics to shut the fuck up sometimes. (not literally of course...)
That was how I felt back then, but my opinion has changed some now, after seeing the posting limits in effect for a while. I don't think our current posting limits are working out well.

The limits are a bit convoluted, and they really do come off as oppressive, even for people that don't actually break the threadhogging rules and never did. That's really the thing for me -- people that don't post frequently STILL think the limits are a pain in the ass. Maybe it's just the perception that a "limit" gives off. Or maybe people don't like having to check when they last posted with the threat of a potential infraction looming over their head. But whatever the reason, the limits give off a bad vibe, and we need to do something about that.

I still think we should deal with threadhogging, for all the reasons I mentioned back in 2013. But I'd like to have simpler rules. Or, if people really hate the idea of any explicit rules, then go back to having mods discretion for dealing with hyperactive posters. Although, I do really hate deleting posts or infracting users, without being able to point to a clearly stated rule.
 

jas61292

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I'm going to agree with what has been said regarding competitive steps. Threadhogging is not really a problem there, and it is handled appropriately already when it does come up.

As for the flavor side of things, while I am not the most involved, I can see why we wanted the limits on the Art thread in the first place. Things definitely were getting out of hand, and I do think that limits were made with the right intention. With that said, I do not think the limits, as we have them, are ideal. As has been pointed out, I often heard people complaining about them, many of whom were not the kind of people who were getting in trouble for thread hogging in the first place. It may be true that, as Doug suggested, just the perception of limits bugs people. However, I don't think the solution to that is to eliminate them. Rather it would be to relax and simplify them.

Right now, the limits on Art posting are twofold. No more than one post a day, and no more than three posts in five days. I think that the complication that the latter part brings is probably what is causing the most irritation. Furthermore, I do not believe that the rules as written differentiate between an artist posting their art, and an artist commenting on other people's art. While obviously they could do both in one post, I would not be surprised if they prefer not to (timing issues), and, especially when this is the case, this could lead to even more irritation as commenting on others limits what they can post of their own, and vice versa. I think that by making a simple limit (ie. one post per day), and potentially differentiating between art posts and comment posts (ie. one art post and one comment post per day). Again though, this is just the view of an outsider commenting on what he is seeing. I don't actually know how people who actually participate feel about these things, so this may or may not be anywhere near what they want.
 

paintseagull

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Apologies, I just noticed this thread exists. We need to make a decision because Art Submissions need to go up soon!
The problems with hard rules on posting are more numerous than subjective moderation. Art Submissions is the type of thread that can have a flurry of activity, then die off, so there is no real absolute definition of how often you can post without threadhogging. Now that we've gotten rid of "likes", we again have unpredictability in the activity level of the thread. I would be happy to do away with the hard rule.

We could simply state a rule of thumb, which makes sense in terms of visibility. When we click on a thread, we usually do not go back and read past pages for a second time. So, as long as you do not have more than 1 post per page, you probably aren't having your voice heard at a louder volume at any given time than anyone else. Our rule could be something like this: "Please give everyone an equal opportunity for their opinion to be heard and for their art to be seen. Threadhogging will be moderated. A good rule of thumb is one post per page: don't post more often than this unless you have a good reason (i.e. an artist requests urgent feedback; the thread has been inactive; you posted art but now you want to post a comment on art that has been posted since)"
^ wording could use some work
 

Bughouse

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A post per page seems generally reasonable both as policy and as a simple rule people can understand (and will be easy to moderate). If no one heavily involved in art moderation/submission objects, I think we should do something in the vein of what paint proposed.
 

DougJustDoug

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The current art OP has this rule:

Posting Frequency
Intentionally or unintentionally, thread-hogging tends to be more prevalent in the art submission thread compared to other CAP threads. In order to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance to showcase their designs and air their opinions, each poster must adhere to the following posting limits:
  • No more than one post in any single 24 hour span
  • No more than three posts in a 5 day span (120 hours)
Posters going over the limit will have their posts deleted or merged. Deleted posts (by the poster or by mods) still count toward the limits (except for accidental double-posts if they are immediately deleted). If you wish to add new comments or art within these limits, please edit your most recent post.
I suggest we replace it with:

Posting Frequency
Please give everyone an equal opportunity for their opinion to be heard and for their art to be seen. Threadhogging will be moderated. We do not have explicit limits, but a good rule of thumb is:
  • When the thread is moving quickly, do not post more than once per day.
  • When the thread is less active, do not post more than once per page.
If you wish to add new comments or art, but don't want to hog the thread, please just edit your most recent post.
 

Birkal

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Wonderful. However, I think it's only fair that we give some indication for why thread hogging is frowned upon in the first place. I like this bit from the current ruling:

"Intentionally or unintentionally, thread-hogging tends to be more prevalent in the art submission thread compared to other CAP threads. In order to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance to showcase their designs and air their opinions..."​

I'd like to include this section. It notifies new artists why we delete posts that are threadhogging, and gives the moderators something specific to point to when deleting / warning posts. I've edited it into the proposal Doug has above, like so:

Posting Frequency
Intentionally or unintentionally, thread-hogging tends to be more prevalent in the art submission thread compared to other CAP threads. In order to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance to showcase their designs and air their opinions, thread-hogging will be moderated. We do not have explicit limits, but a good rule of thumb is:
  • When the thread is moving quickly, do not post more than once per day.
  • When the thread is less active, do not post more than once per page.
If you wish to add new comments or art, but don't want to hog the thread, please just edit your most recent post.
 

DougJustDoug

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I debated whether to include that snippet from the current ruling in the OP or not! After seeing your suggested rewording, I agree its better.
 

paintseagull

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I was actually envisioning the opposite:
moving quickly - once per page
moving slowly - once per day

If the thread moves so slowly that the page doesn't turn over for 3 days, it's silly to ask people not to post, when a boost in activity is actually a really good thing
If the thread is moving really quickly, it sucks to have an artificial timed posting limit when there is a lot of art to be discussed in a short amount of time (e.g. in the last few days, first few days)
 

DougJustDoug

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I see what PSG is saying, but we need to remember that thread hogging by artists is often prompted specifically because when the thread is moving fast, their design gets pushed off the most recent page. So the artist "bumps" their design by posting supporting art or whatever, to keep it visible to everyone on the most recent page. So giving people license to keep their art on the most recent page in a fast-moving thread, is specifically encouraging the thread hogging and "art spam arms race" that we want to avoid.

Perhaps we should eliminate all reference to "pages" in our posting frequency guidelines. Make the rule of thumb very simple:

"We do not have explicit limits, but a good rule of thumb is: Do not post more than once a day."

Short and to the point, and we moderate the exceptions appropriately.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I agree with paint's recent point and doug's subsequent change. If the thread is moving extremely slowly, then there's no point in a one per page rule as it potentially limits activity. One post per day is overall less strict than the current rules, but still solid enough to make sure artists don't become attention whores.

That said, I do feel that there is some significant difference between comment posts and art posts. If you have to wait a whole day to make a comment post and want to actually comment on all the new updated/new designs, then you have to make a single massive post that takes a lot of energy. I remember last CAP wanting to make more comments but didn't want to waste a valuable post if I couldn't time it with an art update of my own (and updating and commenting takes a lot of effort for a single post). So ideally I would like to see a one comment post per day and one art post per day rule (as in up to two posts as long as the subject of content I different).
 

Bughouse

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why not just separate comments from art updates?

(por que no los dos?)
 

DougJustDoug

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Perhaps we should consider the idea of making two separate threads for art -- an Artwork & Design Submissions thread and an Art Discussion & Feedback thread. If we had two threads, it would solve a lot of problems. My guess is that most people would just view the Artwork thread and look at all the pretty pictures. Art critics and artists looking for feedback would participate in the discussion thread. Also, the OPs would not be as onerous, since the rules for each thread would be different (effectively the current art thread OP would be split into two OP's).

The negative impacts of thread hogging would be curbed significantly. The Artwork thread would probably move slower, therefore not encouraging as much art spam to keep designs in view. And the critic thread would be far less viewed by the general public, therefore spamming comments would not be particularly influential in terms of campaigning for votes for your favorite designs.

Since it is easy for mods to move posts, it would not be hard to simply move comments posted in the Artwork thread to the Discussion thread (or vice versa) and not infract it, unless people do it repeatedly. But anyone who does it inadvertently because they don't know there are two threads, would be easy to clean up (mods are really janitors most of the time anyway, right?)

The only real issue would be people posting art and commentary together in the same post. I don't have any bright ideas how to handle that.
 

paintseagull

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I like this idea. I've seen it used in other forum art contests. I'd like to run it by some artists to see what they think before going ahead with it.

Let's hold off on the art thread until we're ready to finalize this decision. There is some other language we need to fix in the OP (about likes). I need to finish some work before discussing it further.
 

Bughouse

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Oh I just meant to make it that comments/critiques would not count against your 1 post a day suggested limit. That would only apply to your own art updates.

Two threads could be cool too I guess? Makes hitting reply to tag the artist a lot harder tho.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Alright, I talked to a few Art Room users on PS about this today for a bit. I completely spaced out and didn't start the conversation until after Magistrum left, but I still chatted with two people who plan on submitting CAP art.

[21:30] @HeaLnDeaL: sungod, otter power. there's talk about this cap having an art submission thread and a separate art comments thread (instead of one thread). your thoughts?
[21:31] +Otter Power: Gonna be a pain to go through
[21:31] +Sunfished: better
[21:31] @HeaLnDeaL: better?
[21:31] +Sunfished: People wouldn't bandwagon, and comments will be much easier to recieve
[21:31] +Sunfished: It'll be nice to have feedback on specific things for one person to work on
[21:32] @HeaLnDeaL: do you agree that it will be a pain to go through though?
[21:32] +Otter Power: Oh wait I get it, so one where we post all our arts and things and people can reply to them, and a second one for final subs? :D
[21:32] +Sunfished: Oh, it'll be super hard to go through, lol
[21:32] +Sunfished: Just giving in my two cents :X
[21:32] @HeaLnDeaL: what if in the comments thread, the second post had a list of all of the current art and names of the corresponding submitters?
[21:32] @HeaLnDeaL: *second post
[21:33] +Sunfished: I'd like that
[21:34] +Sunfished: and I completely took your idea the wrong way lol
[21:34] @HeaLnDeaL: huh?
[21:34] +Sunfished: I thought you meant that you make a thread of your art and people reply to it
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[21:34] @HeaLnDeaL: oh no, that would be be god awful
[21:35] @HeaLnDeaL: a million threads
[21:35] @HeaLnDeaL: the current proposal is one thread for all art, and one thread for all comments
[21:35] @HeaLnDeaL: what do you think of that sungod?
[21:35] +Sunfished: I think that's fine :O
[21:36] +Sunfished: I'd be happy with that idea
[21:37] @HeaLnDeaL: and OP sorry no. The idea isn't one thread for WIP and one for final. One thread for all art and one thread for all comments.
[21:38] @HeaLnDeaL: paging OP
[21:39] +Otter Power: yesyes?
[21:39] @HeaLnDeaL: The idea isn't one thread for WIP and one for final. One thread for all art and one thread for all comments. Your thoughts?
[21:39] +Otter Power: That could work yeah
[21:40] +Otter Power: It should be obligatory to tag the artist they’re commenting on so that they’re notified via alert


Though there was some initial confusion (probably prompted by my generalized phrasing), it seems that some artists are at least willing to take the split thread approach. However, they'd like in the comments thread for a post slot that lists and updates all of the art (with the submitter's name) for ease of viewing access. I would imagine this could work like how Quany managed the second post in the art thread last CAP. Perhaps the second post in both the submission and the comments thread could have this, and whoever updates it can just copy and paste everything to one thread after updating the first. Additionally, going along with srk's most recent comment, there are still some concerns about tagging. This second post list would at least provide artist's names to go with their art and make this easier. However, perhaps an additional short "tutorial" of how to use @ to tag usernames could go in the OP so that artists can be notified of comments.

With all that said, I think a split thread approach is plausible, though not 100% necessary. It creates a clearer division between art and comments, but there would realistically be a lag time between when new art is posted and when it is updated in the second post of both threads. This in turn makes it a bit harder to comment on new art as it is freshly posted (since new art can only be viewed in the submission thread).
 

paintseagull

pink wingull
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
- Quoting someone's post to respond to it is not optimal anyway, since it reposts the art (which is part of the threadhogging concern), and people forget to edit to remove the art often. Separate threads would actually eliminate this problem, which I'd consider a plus.
- Artists who want feedback will check the comment thread, tagging them is just a courtesy, and not necessary. But sure, we can provide instructions/encouragement for this in the OP.
- If there are separate threads, is there an effort barrier for folks who are browsing the art thread who feel like casually commenting? This could be a negative aspect.
- I don't really get the 'hard to go through' comment. When I'm commenting on art I have to have multiple tabs open anyway (and often a text editor window as well)
- Actually I'd think it'd be easier to browse the new art posts and not miss anyone's post. Sometimes when there are a ton of art posts and comments happening all at once, it's easy to miss things.
- Even if the second post of each thread was an index of all the WIPs, you'd still have to have this open in a separate tab, so I see no advantage to having it in both threads or just one thread. Quany hasn't volunteered to do this yet so I am not sure if we will even have someone to do this. It is a lot of work. I don't want to count on this.
- Casual art browsers won't view the comment thread. This might be a good thing, as it reduces campaigning concerns that Doug has about overzealous commenters who praise specific art. Casual browsers won't be influences as much.

Pros:
- better organization
- less clunky threadhogging rules/loopholes
- quoting art won't happen
- each art post will be more visible, art won't get hidden as quickly if rapidfire commenting happens

Cons:
- two threads to moderate
- effort barrier to casual commenting (this is not trivial if the goal is to get as many comments as possible, which is what I'd like to aim for)
- "harder to go through" I don't really get this but if people are worried about it then I'll put it here.

If we're going to go with a new system (removing likes, two threads, removing hard post-limits in art) I would strongly recommend that we implement a flexible, lenient, warning-based threadhogging moderation scheme. Do not post in the OP any rule of thumb, because quite frankly anything we come up with is a guess, and will just confuse people. We should closely monitor the threads and try to come up with some rule of thumb, based on evidence and experience, on what we would consider an objective threshold to threadhogging in these new threads.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I'd be fine with this proposal as well, but consider the implications competitively of having two threads. We almost always have only one competitive stage open at a time. Having two threads for art gives the wrong emphasis off in terms of public relations. From the outside, it would look like art is more important because we devote an entire thread to just commenting on it.

Again, I am fine with this and wouldn't be upset if we put it forward. I am often reluctant to push through a big change, particularly when its decision will effect a part of the process immediately. Do what you think is best, flavor mods, and I will be cool with it!

Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled. I hate phone posting.
 

DougJustDoug

Knows the great enthusiasms
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Moderator
I agree that there are pros and cons with doing two threads. It's not a perfect solution, but we almost never get perfect solutions in CAP. It's always about tradeoffs here. I think the pros outweigh the cons enough on this to give it a try.

To Birkal's point -- yes I agree this takes the "Art is a special snowflake in CAP" to a new level, and that's not a good thing. But I think we can easily say -- this isn't about being "special", it's just a volume thing. CAP art threads get more posts and views than other threads, BY A MILE. Like TEN TIMES more. We are splitting it into two threads, because we need two threads to handle it properly. This happens all over the place in forums -- a mega-thread gets split up, a big thread prompts the creation of a subforum, etc. So, I don't think it's that big of a deal, that CAP is taking its biggest thread and splitting it in two.

I agree with PSG that we'll need to be very tolerant as mods, if we do this. I'm sure people will be posting in the wrong threads, and we'll need to move lots of posts back and forth. I don't think we should hammer rules and reminders in the thread constantly. We'll probably just need to clean the thread up very actively, and after a while, people will realize what is going on just by looking at the threads.

I also agree that threadhogging rules can be removed from the art OP's, if we do two threads. As PSG said, even a rule of thumb is unnecessary. There are only a couple of artists that have been really bad about spamming art and sketches in the past, and we can handle those if they come up.

Hyperactive commenters are much more common, but if we have a thread dedicated to commentary, I think it is much less of a problem with frequent posting there. I suspect that commentary thread will have about as much of a problem with threadhogging as we have in normal competitive threads. Yes, there are some people who talk a lot, and maybe even a bit more than they should in the spirit of collaborative community discussion. But rarely do we get someone that takes it to a level where it needs moderation (outside of the art thread, of course).

If we do two threads, and an artist posts a block of comments in an art post, how do we handle that? We can't copy & edit posts with Xenforo. So we have three choices, I think:
  1. Edit the post with something like "MOD EDIT: Please move these comments to the commentary thread."
  2. Edit the post, remove the comments, send a PM with the removed comments to the artist and tell them to please post the comments in the commentary thread.
  3. Do nothing. Leave it there and hope it doesn't cause others to follow suit. Over time, people will realize what is going on, and the problem should correct itself.

I think #2 is the way to go, but it will be a lot of work for mods. But then again, we have to mod the hell out of the art thread anyway, so I don't see it as additional work really.
 
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paintseagull

pink wingull
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Okay, there are too many uncertainties about this new system and we are trying to have a PR about it when the thread is supposed to already be up. We haven't yet agreed to what the detailed purpose of the two threads would be, how we'd moderate them, or how their OPs should look like. Two changes - the removal of likes, and getting rid of hard posting limits - are enough for one PR cycle. I propose we shelf this idea until after CAP 20 Art Subs is done with. I'd like to solicit more opinions from artists after CAP 20, maybe even put a poll up to see what people prefer.

During CAP 20 Art, we can get a sense of where we are with posting frequency, how fast pages turnover, and how that changes in time. If we see something we think is threadhogging, let's warn the user first before deleting. Make a note of how often that person was posting. I take back the idea of a rule of thumb - if it's posted in the OP, let's face it, it's a rule. The rule of thumb should be for internal use and we simply don't have the data on how fast the thread will move and evolve to even figure out what that should look like.

Let's keep it simple for now and try to encourage an active and dynamic thread with lots of feedback to keep our artists happy.

My proposal for OP change to reflect removal of likes / threadhogging rule simplification:
(Also I want to delete this, it's so mean and unnecessary and not actually true in my experience with CAP :( "If your design is any good, people will comment on it. If your design gets no feedback, then your design is not very good. Consider the silence to be your feedback.")


Posting Rules

Intentionally or unintentionally, thread-hogging tends to be more prevalent in the art submission thread compared to other CAP threads. In order to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance to showcase their designs and air their opinions, thread-hogging will be moderated. If you wish to add new comments or art, but don't want to hog the thread, please consider editing your most recent post to add new content.

Posting Rules: Artists
  • Artists can post any work-in-progress (WIP) artwork in order to solicit feedback or to help develop ideas. WIP artwork does not need to conform to the standards of a Main Design. It can be in any medium or stage of completion, but it must be related to an original art design by the poster.
  • Each post should contain no more than one (1) full sized image which is no larger than 640 pixels in either dimension with a filesize no larger than 200 kB . Artists should post links to additional art or use linking thumbnails. Each thumbnail can be no larger than 150 pixels in either dimension. Any number of thumbnails can be included in a post.
  • The use of hide tags does not circumvent or alter any of the image posting rules.
  • Images must be in jpg, png or gif format and must be hosted on a reliable image hosting service (such as imgur or puush). Do not use the forum's 'Upload a File' feature. Do not use Iaza or Ezimba.
  • Out of courtesy to users with lower bandwidth, artists should not post links to images with filesizes exceeding 500 kB. You must include a warning if you do.
  • Do not post inconsequential updates to designs. Only if you have made a significant change should you post an update in the thread.
  • Do not post to state your intended design. You may not reserve an idea for yourself.
  • No bumping or begging, especially for feedback. If your design is any good, people will comment on it. If your design gets no feedback, then your design is not very good. Consider the silence to be your feedback.
  • Do not post questions asking for help in making art. For art resources on Smogon, check out Smeargle's Studio.

Posting Rules: Commenters
  • Please DO post constructive feedback for artists. Use the like button if all you have to say is "I like this."
  • Do not post ideas or images to serve as inspiration for artists or attempt to commission an artist in the thread to render your idea.
  • Do not declare any artwork as "the winner" or make similar comments to that effect. Such posts are insulting to all the other competing artists.
  • Do not comment that a design does or does not "look like a Pokemon/Digimon". There is no artistic style guide for Pokemon and therefore such comments are unable to be substantiated or refuted.
  • Do not repost images from the thread. When quoting a post, remove any images.

Additionally, please do not suggest names for your or other peoples' concepts, as it may bias the name poll. Everyone should have a fair chance to suggest a name during the naming stage.



----

Once we're in agreement, let's make sure someone makes the thread asap! Quany is around and has agreed to make a 2nd-post index of images again, so if you are making the thread, be in touch with her please!
 
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