Tiering different formes of Pokemon separately

[Lily]

Hi.

As far as I'm aware, tiering Pokemon differently based on forme differences hasn't been touched since Generation 4. In Platinum, the Rotom appliances were released, and Smogon made the decision at the time to tier them all together - despite having obvious movepool differences, they all shared a stat distribution and typing. In Generation 5, each Rotom appliance had its Ghost typing replaced with a different one, resulting in them being tiered differently and ending up spread across every tier from OU to NU. This creates a precedent:

If a Pokemon's typing or stats change as a result of a forme change, they will be tiered separately. Otherwise, all formes will be placed in the same tier.

In virtually every case, this has worked out. Most recently, we've seen Indeedee's gendered forms tiered differently - Female Indeedee currently resides in RU, while Male Indeedee is in RUBL. And up until now, there wasn't really an issue, but tier shifts a few weeks ago changed that by taking a Pokemon from UU: Toxtricity.



Toxtricity was a polarising Pokemon in UU, mostly on the basis of its Shift Gear sets. It was considered potentially unhealthy or banworthy a few times, though nothing was ever pushed for; this could've ended up happening at some point, but it didn't, because it received enough usage in OU to rise up there.
I want to be very clear with one thing: this isn't myself or anyone else begging for Toxtricity to be released back into UU or to go against the usage-based tiering model. The issue here is an inconsistency that I want to touch on.

For those unaware, Toxtricity's two formes, Amped and Low Key, have the same stats and typing, but have different movepools. They're mostly the same, but Amped Toxtricity learns Shift Gear and Venoshock (neither of which Low Key Toxtricity can learn) and Low Key Toxtricity learns Magnetic Flux and Venom Drench (neither of which Amped Toxtricity can learn). They also have an ability difference; Amped Toxtricity has access to Plus, while Low Key Toxtricity has access to Minus. This creates a strange rift in tiering, because these two Pokemon have actual, tangible differences that go beyond a cosmetic level. These movepool differences aren't irrelevant, either; as can be seen in Toxtricity's OU analysis, Shift Gear is present on the only moveset recommended for use in OU, while UU had perfectly viable Choice Scarf and Choice Specs sets. If both formes were tiered differently, this would still be doable - OU could use Shift Gear on Amped Toxtricity, while UU could use Choice Scarf and Choice Specs on Low Key Toxtricity.

There is another example of this, though it's pretty minor. Both Basculin formes currently sit in NU, despite having different ability selections (both have access to Adaptability and Mold Breaker. Red Stripe Basculin has access to Reckless as its third ability, while Blue Stripe Basculin has access to Rock Head). Their movepools are the same, but they are still different from something like Polteageist's Antique forme, which is purely cosmetic and offers no unique in-battle traits. All currently viable Basculin sets use Adapatability regardless, so this doesn't matter much, but it's still something worth taking note of.

In short, I think that current tiering policy should be updated to account for any forme differences a Pokemon may have that go beyond being purely cosmetic. It's fine to tier something like Red Minior and Blue Minior the same, as they have no differences other than their colour which offers no competitive value, but Toxtricity, Basculin, and potentially other Pokemon I'm forgetting could be tiered differently and could then add something to different lower tiers.

Impacted Pokemon in the current generation:
Toxtricity (Amped, Low Key)
Basculin (Red Stripe, Blue Stripe)

Kind of off-beat, but as far as I'm aware the Meowstic formes are tiered differently rn, despite only having some small movepool differences and an ability difference. I'm fairly sure that that's pretty much the same thing, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


To end this off I'll address a couple of questions that might pop up.

What if the usage stats are diluted?
This is a fair concern; there are most likely people on the ladder using something like Amped Toxtricity just because they prefer how it looks without actually taking advantage of the movepool changes it has. There isn't really a "counterpoint" to this, though. It's not like people are required to use optimal sets. This may end up in something like Red Stripe Basculin dropping to PU despite being perfectly viable in NU like Blue Stripe Basculin just because it's less popular, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, and if it's unbalanced in PU then it can be banned to PUBL regardless. This issue is unavoidable - I could use Female Indeedee without taking advantage of any of its traits on the UU/OU ladder and it'd be strictly inferior to Male Indeedee, but that's just the nature of the ladder. Don't think this is a major issue.

Where do we draw the line?
This isn't up to me, but as I said before, I think that the line should be as follows:

If a Pokemon's forme change results in a movepool, typing, or stat distribution change, it will be tiered differently from its other forme(s). If a difference is purely cosmetic and offers absolutely no changes otherwise, it will not be tiered differently.

Others may have different opinions on this, but hey that's what this thread is for.

What about event Pokemon that have specific limitations, such as a locked nature, an otherwise unobtainable move, or a shiny lock?
One could make the argument that these Pokemon should be tiered differently, but I don't think it holds much water. Take the example of Aura Sphere Raikou, which is only obtainable through an event and is both shiny locked and must use a Rash nature. This is, in my opinion, very different to something like Low Key Toxtricity, because it is not an actual forme change. It would result in complex tiering and bans if we were to say:

Event Raikou cannot use Aura Sphere in UU.

as opposed to:

Amped Toxtricity is in UUBL and cannot be used in UU.

This can also be applied to Pokemon like V-Create Rayquaza, Glaciate Victini, and Sludge Bomb Zoroark pre-SWSH.

What about Keldeo and Resolute Keldeo?
That's a tricky one. Those formes don't actually have any movepool differences, but Resolute Keldeo needs to have Secret Sword, so it does give some information to the opponent. I think the easiest way to address this would simply be to not change anything in Keldeo's place as its movepool doesn't change, or to place the lower-used version of Keldeo in "OU by technicality", "UU by technicality" etc. wherever it ends up.

Why does this matter?
To people who only play OU it probably doesn't. For lower tier players, this opens up some opportunities right now in addition to setting a precedent for the future if another Pokemon like Toxtricity or Basculin is released later on. From what I've been able to gather, the current system is considered pretty messy; while this isn't a particularly elegant solution either, it's more consistent.

Thank you for reading.

 

[atomicllamas]

Just a heads up this has been a (5 page) discussion in this forum in the past. Not that it isn’t worth revisiting because I don’t think there was a super final conclusion based on my skimming (at least not on page 5!). Seems like it’s TDK ’s fault.

 

[Ruft]

Another form that I believe to be relevant to the topic at hand is Magearna-Original. This is another case of a form being tiered in accordance with its base form.

Now, this form does not have a differing movepool, typing, or stat distribution from Magearna's base form, but the difference is not entirely cosmetic either. Magearna-Original has a minimal IV spread of 31 HP, 30 Attack, 30 Defense, 31 Special Attack, 31 Special Defense, and 0 Speed IVs, since that's the IV spread it has from its event and Hyper Training can only increase IVs, not decrease them (and you obviously can't breed Magearna). This means you have less freedom to play around with its IV spread compared to base form Magearna and so Magearna-Original is less adaptable and thus objectively less viable. After all, fully special sets prefer having 0 Attack IVs to decrease confusion self-damage, Foul Play damage, Strength Sap healing, Beat Up damage to a partner in doubles formats, etc. (Sure, it's fine if you're running physical moves like Iron Head, but it still gives information to your opponent, which I suppose does give potential bluffing opportunities, but the point is there's a non-cosmetic difference.) I can think of some even more niche cases where it's better to have less bulk or Special Attack as well. Of course, in practice, this rarely ever matters and there's no doubt Magearna-Original would be Uber as well, but for consistency sake I figured it was worth bringing up since it's not specifically addressed in your post. You address similar cases in the question about event Pokemon, but in this specific case there is an actual form difference; tiering Magearna-Original differently wouldn't result in complex tiering like your example of event Raikou would. I guess my point is that the line you draw should be slightly more refined to answer the question of if a case like Magearna-Original should be tiered differently or not (I think, in addition to differing movepool, typing, and stat distribution, you should incorporate differing ability access as a precedent too by the way).

As for my personal opinion on your overall proposal, I support it since it paves the way for more consistency within our tiering process, which is always a good thing.

EDIT: spatulakun pointed out to me that, in addition to what I described here, Magearna-Original doesn't have access to the USM tutor moves, which is another significant disadvantage.

 

[Marty]

I've been PMed about this topic a few times this year by multiple people. Surprisingly, none of them brought up Toxtricity, but all of them brought up Meowstic. Because yes, Meowstic have been tiered together since XY. I keep referring them to the PR thread atomicllamas linked because it still makes sense today.

If you open up minor movepool changes between form(e)s as a benchmark for tiering separately, then there's nowhere to draw the line that isn't a subjective mess. Cosplay Pikachu each have one different move à la Rotom, and Vivillon has two forms that can't have Egg moves, just as some examples. Differing types or base stats are objective metrics that have worked well and don't require tiering admins to say "but wait, what about X" every time a new generation rolls around.

I would strongly encourage everyone to read the previously linked thread to get a better idea of where today's standards came from before forming an opinion. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3580299/

 

[Hogg]

I'm of the opinion that as the games change (and we’ve seen a LOT of major transformations since 2016) we can certainly revise policy to better reflect the current situation. That said, a lot of what was brought up in the thread linked by llamas and Marty is still relevant. I think it’s worth discussing whether we want to retain this policy, but I also think that the line we’ve drawn is overall working well by creating an unambiguous answer to the frequent question of “where should we tier XXX?”

I think that last bit is more or less essential. I don’t want to end up with a policy that creates more gray areas, because that allows people to essentially try to game policy to change how a certain ‘mon is tiered. This policy is largely coming up because UU didn’t want to give up Toxtricity (especially not its non-Shift Gear sets, which were great ways to break through the TeleTurn cores that are super common right now without being unbalanced). I’d love to see Toxtricity back as much as anyone, but I’m very wary of creating an overall policy change just so a single tier can use a certain pokemon.

If this is something that the community wants to address because our current policy, which was made at a time before we had things like regional forms and which was built largely off of policy that came about during the DPP era, no longer reflects the current state of the game, then I would want to see proposals that create a clear delineation for how something should be tiered. In particular, I’d like to see the following issues addressed:

1. What constitutes a different form? Are we specifically going with things that share a Dex number but are accompanied by both a sprite change and a name change? (So, for example, Gastrodon vs Gastrodon-East and the various Vivillon designs would qualify as separate forms, but things such as different Spinda designs would not.) What about the Totem forms from SM?

2. What constitutes a movepool change? This is the really key one, and the area I’m most worried about, because the proposal as written in the OP doesn’t really clarify. The Keldeo example is a good one. If someone from RU decides they really want Keldeo in their tier, do the movepool differences between Keldeo and Keldeo-Resolute allow them to argue that they should be tiered separately, and thereby dilute the UU usage to the point that one or both Keldeos drop?

Basically, what I like about the current policy is that it never creates a scenario where something can be re-tiered based on how good someone is at convincing any given tiering admin that X pokemon actually belongs in Y tier. If we feel that the policy is outdated, I’d like to make sure that any new policy is similarly clear cut.