Tiering mega evolutions separately

[Zarel]

So the question of whether or not megas should be tiered separately is really controversial, despite being a pretty minor part of the thread I was originally trying to post.

So let's create a separate thread for it.

Also a poll, because I'm curious what people think of it. Note that the poll is non-binding, and decisions are always up to the individual tiering leaders.

 

[Hugendugen]

Quoting some relevant posts from the other thread:

Just to reiterate:

<@Hugendugen> I don't really care too much either way about most of the points in the thread
<@Hugendugen> I just dont want mega mons tiered differently from their base forms
<@Hugendugen> since they change in game
<@Hugendugen> through mega evolution
<@Hugendugen> similar to meloetta/darmanitan/castform [also cherrim/aegislash]

I'm actually a little iffy on shaymin being tiered as two different pokemon, since it can also change form mid-battle (if it's frozen).

I think the main reason we won't tier Mega Evolutions separately from their unevolved counterparts is the fact that our tiering system centers around usage statistics. In order to be tiered correctly, we have to go off the usage of the base Pokemon being used in battle.

In this regard, tiering all of the Megas separately from the base forme creates a situation in which we are tiering ~28 Pokemon based solely on "power level" rather than actual usage. EDIT: There's a distinct disconnect, I'm not sure which would be more affected, the base or the Mega, I think the base.

Bans are the exception, and as fusx points out, we only ban what is broken in its simplest form. Hence, we ban the Mega Stone if that is in itself causing a Pokemon to be broken.

The reason we want to ban the Mega Stone rather than the Pokemon as a whole is that we are banning only what is broken (the Mega Stone) and not a combination ban (Mega Stone + Pokemon), or worse, a subset in-battle Pokemon (Mega Evolution). I won't delve into the particulars of the Blaziken ban, because that is where the simplicity aspect of the broken clause comes into play and not for the scope of this thread.

There's about two relevant Pokemon that can actually cause this to happen, 0 SpA Tyranitar and 0 SpA Blissey using Ice Beam. Pretty much everything else within reason that uses Ice Beam or Tri Attack will OHKO Shaymin-S outright. For pretty much all intents and purposes, Shaymin-S and Shaymin are two distinct Pokemon.

I'm aware that it's pretty niche and I wont argue too adamantly for it, for practical reasons, but I still think that as a matter of principle, Shaymin and Skymin should be considered the same Pokemon in usage stats and tiering.

 

[Zarel]

lol, 13 to 1? Why was there so much arguing about something that uncontroversial?

 

[soulgazer]

Posting just to say I meant to vote No; the question was unclear to me and I had to ask around to get it u-u.

 

[Pocket]

it wasn't really controversial... It was just me supporting an idea you brought up, because I thought we could calculate the usage of megas separately from its regular form (like different Arceus types). But apparently that's not the case(?), so tiering megas separately is incompatible with our long established usage-based tiering.

 

[Zarel]

it wasn't really controversial... It was just me supporting an idea you brought up, because I thought we could calculate the usage of megas separately from its regular form (like different Arceus types). But apparently that's not the case(?), so tiering megas separately is incompatible with our long established usage-based tiering.

It's definitely possible to calculate the usage of megas separately, by looking at item usage...

 

[Royalty]

I didn't realize this was solely for usage based tiering, I also meant no.

 

[Arcticblast]

It's definitely possible to calculate the usage of megas separately, by looking at item usage...

This results in a scenario that can artificially bolster the usage of Mega Evolutions when more than one Pokemon on a team is holding its Mega Stone. A team could feasibly run both Garchomp @ Garchompite and Gyarados @ Gyaradosite and Mega Evolve depending on the opposing team composition - Mega Garchomp would blow through stall while Mega Gyarados would be able to sweep more offensive teams; when taking into account that neither of these Pokemon are bad without their Mega Stone, this potentially warrants the use of both on the same team. Of course though, if we were to tier Mega Evolutions separately, this creates an inconsistency with the game - you can only Mega Evolve one Pokemon per battle. If the Garchomp in the above example doesn't Mega Evolve in order to evolve Gyarados, are both Pokemon counted as their Mega form? What if neither of them Mega Evolve? What would happen then?