Metagame Trademarked [Leader's Choice]

I also have been watching a few ladder matches and so far have not seen substitute been polarizing...Substitute also admittedly lost a few notable abusers, though conkeldurr is thriving from the few times ive seen it. I feel the addition of home may help me decide on this one as alot of the more threatening sub users get walled by corviknight or corsola or get dealt with by dragapult.
From what I can tell, the top of the ladder is currently mostly Sub Exca + Wish passer, or stall, or both. Here's the current ladder #2 vs the ladder #7: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056918407. I see Wish + Substitute as a strategy with no true counterstrategy and it's natural that it has found its way to the top of ladder in the first 2 days.

I don't see any fundamental reason why the mechanics of gen 8 would make Sub any less of an issue than it was in gen 7. You mention that Sub users can be either walled or revenged by a select few pokemon, but this line of reasoning implies that Sub would only be considered broken if it led to an unpreventable sweep. Substitute is broken because it is a low risk, high reward move that allows for completely safe play on the part of the Substitute user.

Here's an essay I wrote last year about why Substitute is broken in Trademarked if anyone would like the full story.
 
From what I can tell, the top of the ladder is currently mostly Sub Exca + Wish passer, or stall, or both. Here's the current ladder #2 vs the ladder #7: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056918407. I see Wish + Substitute as a strategy with no true counterstrategy and it's natural that it has found its way to the top of ladder in the first 2 days.

I don't see any fundamental reason why the mechanics of gen 8 would make Sub any less of an issue than it was in gen 7. You mention that Sub users can be either walled or revenged by a select few pokemon, but this line of reasoning implies that Sub would only be considered broken if it led to an unpreventable sweep. Substitute is broken because it is a low risk, high reward move that allows for completely safe play on the part of the Substitute user.

Here's an essay I wrote last year about why Substitute is broken in Trademarked if anyone would like the full story.
Will give this a proper review once I get off from work. But I would like to say on both sub and wish I plan to have a proper action take place at the end of the week.

Now unrelated, drampa had brought to my notice some uncompetetive builds involving sleep talk and (once again) eject pack causing a single turn to go on infinitely. Sleep talk didnt cause much issues last gen (possibly do to low use and the random nature of it)however, sleep talk not only causes issues in this regard but also can be used to bypass the bans of moves that ate banned as trademarks like the phasing moves, trapping and sleep inducers. So as such Sleep talk is now banned from Trademarked.

Tagging The Immortal to implement this change.

Regarding sub and wish issue please be patient with me as free time is tight with me as I deal with school and work 4 days out of the week in a row and start my day at 5 am . And I want to reach an end result that makes the meta as balanced and playable as possible (naturally I realize I cant please all sides).
 
Recently topped the early trademark ladder (see proof below), and I wanted to give my thoughts on the meta.

As of now, yes, Substitute is pretty broken and likely should be banned as soon as possible. Having multiple protections for wallbreakers to spam high-powered attacks behind while being immune to most all other trademarks is too much. Most teams are centered around supporting their own Sub mon as best as they can, wether through a trademark Wish or keeping hazards off the field to maximize their Sub turns.

There's two good things about Sub, though: having a relief to punish setup sweeper trademarks and status trademarks. On offense, most teams cannot afford a Haze Toxapex or something of the sort to deal with all the SD, NP, DD, and Shell Smash sweepers this meta facilitates. Instead, having a few offensive sacks and a Sub user of your own can really capitalize on the opponents setup trademarks, although there are exceptions. The next pro is the status immunity and switch in, and I cannot stress this enough, is becoming integral to every trademark team. Status spam is very, very scary, and most teams cannot afford to keep bringing in an Aromatherapy mon or trademark to keep them at bay. Take this replay here at turn 18. I sacked my Clefable the turn prior to break the opposing Sub Gengar, and sent in my Twave Drag to Paralyze it. Here, I needed to go to my Sub Dracozolt when the opponent when to their Twave Rotom to try and debilitate my Drag. Instead, Draco got the sub up, and was able to pressure the rest of the remaining team for the win.

This is still a problem, as both Sub Dracozolt and Sub Genger where the stars of the match. Both players here were experienced in the early meta, but neither team had adequate counterplay as it is hard to build for every Sub sweeper in the meta. I will list some of my favorite anti-Sub sweepers that can capitalize on the right mons below, but still know that it is my opinion that Sub still ought to be gone so that the meta can stabilize a bit better, and maybe be on the look out on some setup sweeper and status trademarks.

Dragapult @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Dragon Dance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Darts
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch
- Phantom Force / Fire Blast

Cloyster @ Choice Band
Ability: Shell Smash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Spikes
- Liquidation / Ice Shard

Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Clangorous Soul
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Drain Punch
- Iron Head
- Earthquake

DD Drag is very strong and breaks a ton of common Sub users, while still being able to pivot and have some useful priority. I prefer CB as it doesn't wear it down as much, but LO and Fire Blast coverage works fine as well. Cloyster is a little unreliable as Icicle Spear and Rock Blast aren't guaranteed to hit the 3-4 times it usually needs to deal with some Sub users like Exca or Sirfetch'd, but its also the one with the most potential. With CB and +2 from the smash, it is super strong and fast, and often only a few very bulky mons like Haze Toxapex and Iron Defense Avalug can deal with it. And thats where Spikes comes in, as it can punish walls by setting up hazards instead. Lastly, the Kom set I propose is meant with longevity in mind rather than Throat Spray special. Being mixed is awesome for hitting most threats, and having Drain Punch + Lefties can give you multiple switch ins. Clang Scales is of course a sound move and can hit through Sub, and usually deals with special sub users, or you can Drain Punch up and not have to worry about a lot of the other set.

https://pokepast.es/df714fe5a4524034

Here's the team I used to top, feel free to use it / abridge it!

Screen Shot 2020-02-03 at 9.49.44 AM.png
 
Grapploct @ Leftovers
Ability: Topsy-Turvy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sucker Punch /Liquidation/Ice Punch
- Detect
- Drain Punch
- Circle Throw

Need a hazer? Why not ZoidbergGrapploct? Topsy-Turvy acts as a stronger Haze, and its respectable 80/90/80 bulk ensures that the now debuffed sweeper will not kill it no matter how much it wants to. Drain punch lets you get some chip damage and heal back up from whatever they tried to hit you with. Circle Throw prevents further setup, Detect lets you read the switch-in's move, and the last move is coverage.
 
Grapploct @ Leftovers
Ability: Topsy-Turvy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sucker Punch /Liquidation/Ice Punch
- Detect
- Drain Punch
- Circle Throw

Need a hazer? Why not ZoidbergGrapploct? Topsy-Turvy acts as a stronger Haze, and its respectable 80/90/80 bulk ensures that the now debuffed sweeper will not kill it no matter how much it wants to. Drain punch lets you get some chip damage and heal back up from whatever they tried to hit you with. Circle Throw prevents further setup, Detect lets you read the switch-in's move, and the last move is coverage.
Why would you ever run Detect over Protect on this set?
 

drampa's grandpa

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:ss/weavile:
Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Throat Chop
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Low Kick / Psycho Cut

This set is probably my favorite in the metagame right now. Ice Shard is super duper good as a revenge killing and cleaning tool, allowing you to not just fold to Dragapult, Kommo-O, and many other sweepers (including those who take neutral damage). Icicle Spear breaks subs but Crash is more reliable in its damage output. Low Kick can 2HKO Avalugg (which I'll talk about in a moment) with a little chip or rolls while Psycho Cut lets you dent Pex.
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 204-242 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (KOs after Clangorous Soul)
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 306-362 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not Soul? just KOs)
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 470-554 (148.2 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 226-267 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 408-480 (125.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 280-331 (106.8 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You hit about 1000 attack, so you're also pretty good at wallbreaking, although there is of course also some extreme bulk in this metagame.

+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 277-327 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (don't try to stay in though, they have priority)


My experience with Weavile so far is that it brings in the majority of my wins when it's on my team. A weakened team can rarely tank all of its attacks, and I either find myself cleaning with Ice Shard versus offensive cores or smacking through chipped mons with power moves, more often the former in this rather offensive meta.

No replays yet but I'll see if I can make one.

:ss/avalugg:
Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: irondefense
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Body Press
- Rapid Spin

This thing is kinda insane. In the replay I posted below it tanks a +6 STAB Super Effective Flare Blitz from a Charizard.
This answers almost every physical sweeper in the metagame, although a few can mash past it if played well. Stuff with Super-Effective STABs mostly, and it can usually tank at least one hit. Anything that isn't boosted, item boosted, and high BP, high attack, and STAB (or using a special move like idk Ember) probably fails to 2hko this thing.

252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (no boost no go)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 90-108 (22.8 - 27.4%) -- approx. 44.1% chance to 4HKO (not even close lol)
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Excadrill is a bit weird. Band just wins if Avalugg switches in. Life Orb loses 70% of the time BUT can flinch. Scarf does about the same as Life Orb but Avalugg is much freer to click Recover. I haven't seen many Excadrill so I'm not sure what's most common, although Scarf seems best to me.)
+6 252 Atk Charizard Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol this doesn't OHKO)


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056552844

On Substitute...
I don't find it super cancerous I won't lie. I've found it actually healthy for the metagame so far because it puts a restraint on set-up sweepers, which have a ball with this metagame. I've been trying a number of Sub attackers, and none of them have stood out as broken so far. Dragapult, Toxtricity, Weavile, Kommo-O, and other sound/multi-hit attackers all have ways around Substitute, and are all good mons. Three of those were not around / as relevant last generation btw.

:conkeldurr: Probably the best I've used so far thanks to great power, priority, and good coverage. I found it either couldn't come in very often because of Sub or lacked power because it wasn't running Close Combat. The fact that Dragapult is everywhere makes its life harder as well.
:cursola: Strength Sap + good coverage + good power, but it detests Dragapult even more than Conk. However it's been my favorite to use so far due to Strength Sap allowing it great sustainability.
:grimmsnarl: Yes, I used this thing. No it didn't work out very well.
:drampa: best boi in the meta, but i have a hard time thinking it's broken. Has serious trouble with the Weavile set I posted above as well as the omnipresent Dragapult and Kommon-O.
:aegislash-blade: free him
There are a lot of others, as Sub is pretty splashable. However I find that Substitute is perfectly balanced and you just have to keep it in mind when you build, the same as any other high tier threat.
When comparing this gen to last, we lost stuff like Heatran, Hoopa-Unbound, every mega, Thundurus, Latios, and more, and gained some neat counterplay. This meta seems much more forgiving to let an opponent get a Sub up in (this argument doesn't go a long ways towards talking about Sub this gen, which is what we should focus on, but I'd like to minimize the comparisons to last generation as it's a whole different ball game).

On Wish...
I really haven't seen it being broken yet. Could the people who want it banned elaborate on why?

On Mew / Transform...
I agree it's a conversation that needs to be had but I'm not sure where I stand yet.
 
:ss/weavile:
Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Throat Chop
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Low Kick / Psycho Cut

This set is probably my favorite in the metagame right now. Ice Shard is super duper good as a revenge killing and cleaning tool, allowing you to not just fold to Dragapult, Kommo-O, and many other sweepers (including those who take neutral damage). Icicle Spear breaks subs but Crash is more reliable in its damage output. Low Kick can 2HKO Avalugg (which I'll talk about in a moment) with a little chip or rolls while Psycho Cut lets you dent Pex.
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 204-242 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (KOs after Clangorous Soul)
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 306-362 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not Soul? just KOs)
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 470-554 (148.2 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 226-267 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 408-480 (125.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 280-331 (106.8 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You hit about 1000 attack, so you're also pretty good at wallbreaking, although there is of course also some extreme bulk in this metagame.

+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 277-327 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (don't try to stay in though, they have priority)


My experience with Weavile so far is that it brings in the majority of my wins when it's on my team. A weakened team can rarely tank all of its attacks, and I either find myself cleaning with Ice Shard versus offensive cores or smacking through chipped mons with power moves, more often the former in this rather offensive meta.

No replays yet but I'll see if I can make one.

:ss/avalugg:
Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: irondefense
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Body Press
- Rapid Spin

This thing is kinda insane. In the replay I posted below it tanks a +6 STAB Super Effective Flare Blitz from a Charizard.
This answers almost every physical sweeper in the metagame, although a few can mash past it if played well. Stuff with Super-Effective STABs mostly, and it can usually tank at least one hit. Anything that isn't boosted, item boosted, and high BP, high attack, and STAB (or using a special move like idk Ember) probably fails to 2hko this thing.

252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (no boost no go)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 90-108 (22.8 - 27.4%) -- approx. 44.1% chance to 4HKO (not even close lol)
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Excadrill is a bit weird. Band just wins if Avalugg switches in. Life Orb loses 70% of the time BUT can flinch. Scarf does about the same as Life Orb but Avalugg is much freer to click Recover. I haven't seen many Excadrill so I'm not sure what's most common, although Scarf seems best to me.)
+6 252 Atk Charizard Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol this doesn't OHKO)


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056552844

On Substitute...
I don't find it super cancerous I won't lie. I've found it actually healthy for the metagame so far because it puts a restraint on set-up sweepers, which have a ball with this metagame. I've been trying a number of Sub attackers, and none of them have stood out as broken so far. Dragapult, Toxtricity, Weavile, Kommo-O, and other sound/multi-hit attackers all have ways around Substitute, and are all good mons. Three of those were not around / as relevant last generation btw.

:conkeldurr: Probably the best I've used so far thanks to great power, priority, and good coverage. I found it either couldn't come in very often because of Sub or lacked power because it wasn't running Close Combat. The fact that Dragapult is everywhere makes its life harder as well.
:cursola: Strength Sap + good coverage + good power, but it detests Dragapult even more than Conk. However it's been my favorite to use so far due to Strength Sap allowing it great sustainability.
:grimmsnarl: Yes, I used this thing. No it didn't work out very well.
:drampa: best boi in the meta, but i have a hard time thinking it's broken. Has serious trouble with the Weavile set I posted above as well as the omnipresent Dragapult and Kommon-O.
:aegislash-blade: free him
There are a lot of others, as Sub is pretty splashable. However I find that Substitute is perfectly balanced and you just have to keep it in mind when you build, the same as any other high tier threat.
When comparing this gen to last, we lost stuff like Heatran, Hoopa-Unbound, every mega, Thundurus, Latios, and more, and gained some neat counterplay. This meta seems much more forgiving to let an opponent get a Sub up in (this argument doesn't go a long ways towards talking about Sub this gen, which is what we should focus on, but I'd like to minimize the comparisons to last generation as it's a whole different ball game).

On Wish...
I really haven't seen it being broken yet. Could the people who want it banned elaborate on why?

On Mew / Transform...
I agree it's a conversation that needs to be had but I'm not sure where I stand yet.
Wish as a TM provides teams with instant recovery just from switching in and out, which makes switching very hard to punish as a whole unless you can punish both the Wish user and what else they may want to switch into. Moreover, Wish in conjunction with Substitute users allows this usually free switch (barring multi-hit moves or other Sub evaders), while bringing the Sub user back to full. This effectively gives the sub user 4 more switch ins, and when it comes to wallbreakers or fast sweepers like Gengar, there's really no denying how threatening it is.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1057735674

Here is a great example of a replay where Wish on both sides dragged it on, and again, the Sub users of Exca and Dracozolt where the stars of the show both sides. Any chance to pressure Clefable to stop Wish passing was met with other walls that could stop the attacker, until there was an easy opportunity to get the Sub mon back in.

Right now, it's Sub that is broken, and Wish just pushes it over the edge further. It could be that after Sub is banned that Wish/Iron Defense/Amnesia cores could be an issue, but that's not the greatest concern.
 
I've been playing quite a few games, and I find it pretty fun. Here's my favorite combo at the moment:

:ss/whimsicott:
Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: encore
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leech Seed
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- U-turn
This annoying dude shuts down any mon trying to sweep. It chips things with Leech Seed and Moonblast, prevents recovery with Taunt, and pivots with U-Turn.

You may be asking what the EVs are for. With this spread Whimsicott outspeeds base 110s so it can switch in this guy first:

:ss/mew:
Mew @ Choice Scarf
Ability: transform
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick
- Encore
- Taunt
- U-turn
Transform Scarf Mew is a very potent revenge killer, and can easily countersweep a team lacking a Hazer when the target is busy trying to boost thanks to Encore.

low ladder example replay, but nevertheless a replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1058655672

some other notes:
- keeping infiltrator on dragapult is kinda cool to surprise sub mons
- reflect/light screen mons like toxapex and corviknight might be more viable than idef/amnesia
- claydol is a really good setter on weather teams cause it gets sr/rspin/teleport
 
I really like Ribombee here.
Let me explain myself.
ribombee-totem.gif.fdf400d8a387ea2addeb0c244b67c488.gif
Ribombee @ Focus Sssh
Ability: quiverdance
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Bug Buzz
So here's the set. As soon as you come in, it's a boost to speed, special defense, and special attack. With Ribombee having 95/70/124 it becomes a speed demon with 520 speed, pretty strong with 433 spattack, and respectable 265 special defense.

With focus sash, you are guaranteed to get a sticky web up, unless taunt.
"Why not just use sticky web" A. Magic Coat. B. Ribombee is meant as a suicide lead, why take the risk setting up when multi hit moves exist. I'd rather be able to get a sticky web up and take 1 or 2 things down than get hit with a multi hit move and die.

Some quick calcs:
+1 252 SpA Ribombee Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

+1 252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 480-568 (164.3 - 194.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Falinks: 378-446 (113.1 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Please feel free to tell me this post sucks or ribombee sucks. Still relatively new to this meta so help me out.
 
So I've been playing on the ladder for a bit now, not really getting anywhere "high" on the ladder, but I've been having some fun and messing around with this set for a bit:

Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: disable
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

This set rocks. I absolutely love it. Disable as an ability is underrated imo, for it's ability to shut down healing moves, choice users and one attack spammers. In conjunction with haze toxapex (as well as the FIRE set of power swap grimmsnarl) it can shut down many different sweepers given the chance to disable their most spammed moves. It can also allow some pokemon to be walled easier due to disable shutting down moves they would otherwise be able to use to get around walls; for example, disabling earthquake can allow toxapex to wall excadrill. Discuss! Share your thoughts! Please?.....
 
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Bean Man With a Timid Nature and max Speed, Ribombee actually hits 571 speed after a QD as opposed to 520. Also, would Disable disable a random move if it activates before a move is used at all or would it disable the first move the foe uses?
 
Also, would Disable disable a random move if it activates before a move is used at all or would it disable the first move the foe uses?
Disable works by disabling the last move the target used. If they haven't used a move, they can't be disabled, therefore disable fails if they haven't used a move since switching in.
 
Bean Man With a Timid Nature and max Speed, Ribombee actually hits 571 speed after a QD as opposed to 520. Also, would Disable disable a random move if it activates before a move is used at all or would it disable the first move the foe uses?
Ye I know, I was excluding that and using its base speed

Since it seems everyone enjoyed my ribombee set, let's show off this toxtricity!

1575980400497.gif
Toxtricity @ Choice Specs/Band
Ability: shiftgear
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA or Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or
Timid/Jolly Nature
- Discharge/ Thunder Punch
- Sludge Wave/Gunk Shot
- Boomburst/Drain Punch
- Volt Switch

Pretty sure this set is self explanatory, your speed is insanely good now with a minimum of 238 and a maximum of a whopping 546. If you go the physical route its attack becomes a beefy 528. But there's the special route which can get you to a respectable 490. Moves are optimized to kill tanks like Pex and Avalugg.

Calcs:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Toxtricity Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 242-288 (79.6 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

0- SpA Toxtricity Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 139-165 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Toxtricity Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

drampa edit: Please don't double post. Edit the sets into your previous post next time.
 
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So I haven't played the tier in a while now, hoping some things were changed but not too much has. HOWEVER, that's all good, and thanks for banning sleep talk some people were using Sleep Talk Volt switch Vikavolt on the ladder which is insane. I've been testing many many many things, and I've found a couple that just kinda work, and I'll share them with you now.


1581090730496.png

Togekiss @ Flame Orb
Ability: psychoshift
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower
- Dazzling Gleam

This set is super good on teams that lack an aromatherapy mon, and ultimately can put some people to sleep (which is a slight exploit maybe but it's really nice regardless). If you get a rest off, flame orb will burn you and bam free burns when you switch in. Pretty simple set, and you could definetely run Nasty Plot over Dazzling Gleam or Air Slash, but I like the 3 attacks version a lot. Weaknesses of this mon is that you gotta send it out for at least a turn to get it going, but it's not too difficult.

1581091012450.png


WOW (Aegislash) @ Choice Band
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw

I know what you're thinking... what the hell is this thing? It's just a revenge killer with some nice bulk and can trip some people up. It 2hkos an Avalugg with Sacred Sword and Sneak 1hkos non-hp invested dragapult. Not much else to say, just puts in some nice work.

1581091192045.png
(shut up gen 3 sprite is nice)

hard brain (Shuckle) @ Leftovers
Ability: powersplit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Infestation
- Toxic
- Protect
- Stealth Rock

This thing is hell stupid. You switch it into a CB Adamant DDance Dragon Darts from Dragapult, and it takes 35%. It then proceeds to set up rocks, toxic people, chip some people down hella easily, and ultimately just make it super annoying to break. This just takes your opponents attack and eats it. GIVE ME YOUR POWER!

1581091378877.png

cancer (Dugtrio) @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Stone Edge
- Memento

Ban me.
 
OK after a degree of consideration. IIII stil kinda dont have a real lean on what to ban (still kinda swamped after my week). I am admittedly leaning more towards Wish however than sub.
however here is my thoughts on both based on what I have seen.

Substitute in trademarked had been an odd place for me last gen and still kind of is now. It benefits teams and offensive mons in alot of ways by providing them a means to have protection from status ailments. However it also lets them take attacks or deal with faster mons that may or may not outspeed them or stuff that usually act as a check to them. Which is where it can be deemed as broken in some regards. However sub mons also have to deal with losing 25% hp everytime they swap in which may in turn become an issue for them with hazards and/or a lack of recovery.
With the removal of substitute alot of things open up:
  1. Status like toxic, thunder wave and will o wisp become more dominant as trademarks. Leaving many offensive mons more likely to just get crippled outright. And with heal bell distribution being gone till home drops and aromatherapy having not the best of distribution either, things dont look well. And even then the meta would still struggle with whole teams just getting statused.
  2. Mew becomes even more of a threat as now it can transform into just about any mon without fear of being blocked by a substitute.
  3. Stall as a whole becomes stronger as wish would still be present and they can freely status ur team and keep mons and theirs healthy with wish support and naturally a mon with aromatherpay or the ability to tank status.
Regarding wish I find that it to be the more bannable of the two evils. Though its not as meta defining or as necessary on most teams in trademarked. It would be wrong to say that it doesnt enhance substitutes effectiveness or make stall more tough to break. Though we lack the chunkier likes of chansey, and alomomola (the former of whom is confirmed to be returning in a few months), there is still mons like clefable, aromatisse that can still provide wish support and even carry aromatherapy as well. It reduces the opportunity cost of using sub in that it provides the substitute mons with recovery and sustainability (something which many submons lack).

I would just like to note I am not trying to be blind on these acusations. Not much people have brought up relevant data to show that sub should be banned this time around and of the teams ive seen on ladder and in tour some mons seem to be strong yes, but in many ways counterable to force to swap out, this is something they would have to consider more carefully without the addition of free healing in wish.

I dont plan on taking a proper stance and action until tomorrow 10pm est at which I will decide which action will be taken moving forward. I just wanna make a choice that moves the meta in the right direction so.

If you feel different please bring proper replays and reasoning, and I would genuinely appreciate more than one pushing the direction or supporting the points brought, but I will do my won research tomorrow as well on ladder.
 
I’d say ban Wish and Substitute as trademarks, then ban Transform, mostly because the latter is basically the same as Imposter in terms of utility, then keep an eye on Shell Smash, it seems pretty suspect to me. That’s just me, though.
 
How do you determine interactions between tms and literally everything else? Some of the interactions feel like they were pulled out of a hat, like ngas and taunt failing to block tms, tms activating before all buffered switches have been resolved, etc.
 
How do you determine interactions between tms and literally everything else? Some of the interactions feel like they were pulled out of a hat, like ngas and taunt failing to block tms, tms activating before all buffered switches have been resolved, etc.
thats a matter of coding question. Taunt isnt suppose to block them by virtue of being abilities which is why assvest doesnt block em. Otherwise the ngas thing I would have to ask the person who coded it , since skill swap, trace and roleplay apply as normal.

anywho here is two sets I have been enjoying on ladder:

Weezing-Galar (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: aromatherapy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Pain Split
- Strange Steam
- Flamethrower

weezing galar is decently chunky and acts as a degree of a counter to the wish users of aromatisse and clefable and also dealing with dragapult. Flamethrower is to scare out or suprise the occacsional steel types, pain split for a degree of recovery and then the other 2 stabs for the aforementioned threats from my first sentence. In terms of special bulk its supported by another mon I use...

Corviknight (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: lightscreen
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
- Brave Bird

May have to change the coverage aroudn but this mon has been a solid screen support mon on my team. Corvi is already chunky in itself but this boosts its lower sp.def stat as well as the sp.def stat for the rest of the team. Tanks pretty well and works good as screen setting pivot.
Note: the evs are ones im currently testing, arent for a specific threat.
 
thats a matter of coding question. Taunt isnt suppose to block them by virtue of being abilities which is why assvest doesnt block em. Otherwise the ngas thing I would have to ask the person who coded it , since skill swap, trace and roleplay apply as normal.
What about the tms activating before all bufferred switches in a turn resolved?
Ok, I might want to explain that one. Normally, when someone buffers a switch, there is absolutely nothing an opponent can do to affect the pokemon that is switching out, with the exception of pursuit. If you switch in a pokemon with a standard ability that activates on switch-in, the ability will activate after all bufferred switches resolve. However, trademarks will activate IMMEDIATELY after the pokemon switches in, which causes tms to occasionally affect a pokemon that is about to switch out. (i.e. Both trainers choose to switch out there mons. A pokemon with tm trick switches in first, tricking a choice scarf onto the opponent BEFORE the enemy carries out the switch. The receiver of the scarf then switches out.)
tbh, I think that mechanic is kinda stupid.
 
What about the tms activating before all bufferred switches in a turn resolved?
Ok, I might want to explain that one. Normally, when someone buffers a switch, there is absolutely nothing an opponent can do to affect the pokemon that is switching out, with the exception of pursuit. If you switch in a pokemon with a standard ability that activates on switch-in, the ability will activate after all bufferred switches resolve. However, trademarks will activate IMMEDIATELY after the pokemon switches in, which causes tms to occasionally affect a pokemon that is about to switch out. (i.e. Both trainers choose to switch out there mons. A pokemon with tm trick switches in first, tricking a choice scarf onto the opponent BEFORE the enemy carries out the switch. The receiver of the scarf then switches out.)
tbh, I think that mechanic is kinda stupid.
can you possibly give a replay showing this happening? Cause to my knowledge abilities dont activate after buffered switches occur, they activate before then. Abilities usually are suppose to activate upon being swapped in. I can try and confirm the situation ingame but it usualy goes

Mon is swapped out
brings in mon
the mon brought in ability activates
Then the opposing mon swaps out

if I am not understanding what you mean , please bring a reply so I can understand if I am mistaken
 

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