Metagame Trademarked [Leader's Choice]

Welp, after consideration (and at least for the time being) I have made the decision to quickban wish. To get some of my reasoning as to why I am not banning substitute instead see post #43.

Substitute has sufficient opportunity cost I feel for what it does for the meta. as though substitute is hated by some I feel that a better course of action woudl be dealing with some of the mons behind them as substitutes removal I feel would lead to an even more defensive meta than an offensive one. Substitute is limited to one by default and though wish is the same, having recovery for sub mons when most typically lack it, gives this tm even more safety than it should have. If the time comes and substitute is shown with ample research to be a threat, I will consider with the possile attachment of status moves inclusive of will o wisp, twave and toxic.

for now though Wish is Now Banned as a Trademark. or at least whenever a mod updates as such on the server.


tagging the most likely elated The Immortal to input this change and send the demand that he remove his toxtricity pfp. :psyangry:

jokes aside, please give thoughts and opinions. I am one person trying to run this lol and a busy one at that.

I am also looking for nominations for the Trademarked Viability ranking, though I have a few mons in mind I would appreciate noms alongside replays and/or support.
 
Has any new counterplay emerged for Sub compared to Gen 7? IMO I feel like that might play a part in whether it gets banned or not. I still think Transform and maybe Shell Smash should be looked at in the future.
 
Has any new counterplay emerged for Sub compared to Gen 7? IMO I feel like that might play a part in whether it gets banned or not. I still think Transform and maybe Shell Smash should be looked at in the future.
I think drampa's grandpa puts the new counterplay best:
On Substitute...
I don't find it super cancerous I won't lie. I've found it actually healthy for the metagame so far because it puts a restraint on set-up sweepers, which have a ball with this metagame. I've been trying a number of Sub attackers, and none of them have stood out as broken so far. Dragapult, Toxtricity, Weavile, Kommo-O, and other sound/multi-hit attackers all have ways around Substitute, and are all good mons. Three of those were not around / as relevant last generation btw.
The biggest name here is Dragapult and its Dragon Darts, although Toxtricity gets an honourable mention for having Boomburst at least some of the time. (Admittedly, pretty much none of its trademarks are Overdrive-friendly.) Kommo-o and Sylveon being more firmly OU this round is likely helping counterplay-to-Sub-wise...although I haven't seen Clanging Scales on Kommo-o in the Trademarked ladder lately.
 
Set Up Destroyer

Grapploct @ Leftovers
Ability: topsyturvy
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Octolock
- Drain Punch
- Taunt
- Waterfall/filler attack

Topsy Turvy is way too good in this meta filled with set up, it pains me to say this, but this set might be a tiny bit op. Octolock can prevent them from switching, even though they will swap out. It's just a good set, and I can't explain why.
 
Set Up Destroyer

Grapploct @ Leftovers
Ability: topsyturvy
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Octolock
- Drain Punch
- Taunt
- Waterfall/filler attack

Topsy Turvy is way too good in this meta filled with set up, it pains me to say this, but this set might be a tiny bit op. Octolock can prevent them from switching, even though they will swap out. It's just a good set, and I can't explain why.
I've been running this similar set right now, though I find it doesn't feel too OP:

Grapploct @ Leftovers
Ability: topsyturvy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Octolock
- Circle Throw
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch

At the very least, I recommend a filler attack that punishes Ghosts harder for switching in (and they're immune to Fighting and aren't trapped by Octolock, so they will switch in) - Ice Punch at least has good coverage with Fighting and punishes Dragapult (and freeze haxes Toxapex), though this could be Payback instead if you're not interested in hurting Fairies or Stomping Tantrum (sadly, Grapploct doesn't get Earthquake) instead if your biggest concern is Aegislash.

I personally like Circle Throw because people switch out their neutered mons against my Grapploct a lot, although Taunt is another way to punish switch-ins. (Admittedly, Corviknight is one of the more common switch-ins and does fairly well when Taunted, what with Brave Bird and U-turn.)
 

Electrolyte

Wander With Me
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Two fun sets that have been working well for me:


Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: tailwind
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Defog / Body Press
- Roost
- Brave Bird

Defensive Tailwind Corviknight is a fantastic pivot for balanced teams. Unlike Bulk Up Corviknight, however, Tailwind is where this set truly shines, as it gives offensive breakers the extra speed to clean late-game or keep opposing sweepers at bay. For example, Substitute users like Excadrill and Gengar can reliably beat mirror-matchups and faster multi-hit attackers, eliminating yet another source of opposing counterplay. Wallbreakers like Nasty Plot / Swords Dance users also appreciate the doubled speed, allowing them to out-offense opponents and negate the Speed drop of paralysis. Dracozolt in particular is a fantastic partner, as Charge + Tailwind both cannot be removed by Haze or stat reversing abilities, and its Choice Band Bolt Beak cuts cleanly through teams that rely on such abilities to stop sweepers. Meanwhile, Corviknight itself is incredibly valuable as an all-around Excadrill counter, and can further support its team with Defog and a slow U-turn, providing safe opportunities for Substitutes to be brought in unbroken.



Dragapult @ Choice Band
Ability: disable
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Sucker Punch

Offensive pivot Dragapult has also served me well on the ladder thanks to its combination of power, speed, and longevity after a well-timed disable upon switchin. Most Pokemon only carry one or two moves that can truly threaten Dragapult, and few can maintain an offensive presence even with just a coverage move disabled. In addition, choiced attackers common in offensive teams are completely shut down. This set has fantastic synergy with Substitute users, which can safely scout potent opposing attacks and then switch into Dragapult to disable them. U-turn allows Dragapult to capitalize upon the opportunities created by disable to pivot into more threatening breakers as the opponent's momentum is cut short. CB Dragapult is also generally a fantastic attacker, as Dragon Darts breaks through most common Substitutes and can easily clean off weakened teams.
 
Two parts: So here we go

1. Transform is bugged I think? When using transform Mew, your ability becomes suppressed instead of the opponent's trademark, which is... strange? If this is a bug and gets fixed, Transform would be way more ban worthy, but if it isnt, there isnt much (imo) to ban except getting an idea of your opponents set, which is what transform is for.

2. I wanted to add this trick room team as a sample team, but it might be dumb. It's a trick room team centering around hatterene. The link is right here.
Most of the battles were either won or the opponent forfeited. It's just an all around good team.
 
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Dragapult @ Choice Band
Ability: disable
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Sucker Punch

Offensive pivot Dragapult has also served me well on the ladder thanks to its combination of power, speed, and longevity after a well-timed disable upon switchin. Most Pokemon only carry one or two moves that can truly threaten Dragapult, and few can maintain an offensive presence even with just a coverage move disabled. In addition, choiced attackers common in offensive teams are completely shut down. This set has fantastic synergy with Substitute users, which can safely scout potent opposing attacks and then switch into Dragapult to disable them. U-turn allows Dragapult to capitalize upon the opportunities created by disable to pivot into more threatening breakers as the opponent's momentum is cut short. CB Dragapult is also generally a fantastic attacker, as Dragon Darts breaks through most common Substitutes and can easily clean off weakened teams.
HUZZAH! A man/woman of quality! If you look back in the thread I myself posted a specs gengar set with disable TM trying to get people to understand just how good it can be. I have also tried dragapult, but found the power difference to be staggering on the special side. How effective do you actually find the physical set in practice? To me it just seems like bulk up/iron defense corviknight comes in everytime and forces a switch. Sub mons can be a problem too, if you can't break it with U-turn or Dragon darts then they just get to take advantage of you. Anyway a really nice set I might try out myself!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1061836380
A replay showing proof of concept. REALLY had to work around wish umbreon, but managed to clutch it out
 
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Welp, after consideration (and at least for the time being) I have made the decision to quickban wish. To get some of my reasoning as to why I am not banning substitute instead see post #43.

Substitute has sufficient opportunity cost I feel for what it does for the meta. as though substitute is hated by some I feel that a better course of action woudl be dealing with some of the mons behind them as substitutes removal I feel would lead to an even more defensive meta than an offensive one. Substitute is limited to one by default and though wish is the same, having recovery for sub mons when most typically lack it, gives this tm even more safety than it should have. If the time comes and substitute is shown with ample research to be a threat, I will consider with the possile attachment of status moves inclusive of will o wisp, twave and toxic.

for now though Wish is Now Banned as a Trademark. or at least whenever a mod updates as such on the server.


tagging the most likely elated The Immortal to input this change and send the demand that he remove his toxtricity pfp. :psyangry:

jokes aside, please give thoughts and opinions. I am one person trying to run this lol and a busy one at that.

I am also looking for nominations for the Trademarked Viability ranking, though I have a few mons in mind I would appreciate noms alongside replays and/or support.
Kyurem-Black for A+ or S
This thing is... insane. Automatic attack boost and speed boost? YES PLEASE. Tell me 723 attack isnt a bit broken.
It has coverage for any type that could threaten it depending on what you run. Might even be a bit watch worthy :smogthink:
 
Ok kiddies. Mind u on the home stuff I havent gotten a rral break yet to hop on ps to discuss anything since i had tests over the last two days.

Saturday I should be free so I plan to start discussing methods to tackle substitute in the meta and along with the addition of the new mons in tm .

Also kyub is definitely threat that needs considering if ou doesnt ban him first .

I will also start creation of trademarked vr and will be open to any nominations. Thus far S tiers look like dragapult and Corviknight of what ive seen.
 
Ok kiddies. Mind u on the home stuff I havent gotten a rral break yet to hop on ps to discuss anything since i had tests over the last two days.

Saturday I should be free so I plan to start discussing methods to tackle substitute in the meta and along with the addition of the new mons in tm .

Also kyub is definitely threat that needs considering if ou doesnt ban him first .

I will also start creation of trademarked vr and will be open to any nominations. Thus far S tiers look like dragapult and Corviknight of what ive seen.
Really, corviknight? I don't see much of those and they're pretty easy to counter. But dragapult makes sense.


3970_sweetdreams.gif
The Meta When Wish Is Banned
 
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Yo Im gonna try this out TY
:)

So I can make a move my ability?
Specifically, you just insert a status move's name into the ability slot and it activates when you switch the mon in. You can't use attacks as abilities, use a move as a move and as a ability, and loose the original ability to run a status move as an ability.
 
and loose the original ability to run a status move as an ability.
Wdym by that
The old ability is replaced by the move and becomes a "new" ability that activates the move's effects when the mon switches in. (So putting Swords Dance in the ability slot gives you an ability that raises your attack by 2 stages when you switch in)
 
Okay I've never been really good at explaining things, but I don't think banning Wish as a trademark was enough to make Substitute not unhealthy, if not still broken. Substitute still enables Pokemon to get free damage on other Pokemon, easily set up behind a sub, or just eat up resisted hits while wailing on the opponent.

Losing 25% of health is not even that big of an issue if you have any sort of recovery, or if you're fast and make up for losing so much health by removing multiple members of the opponents team before you can be revenge killed. Not to mention, Pokemon can still run Wish regularly to support Sub abusers. Also, you can bring in Sub users with even decent volt-switch or u-turn plays, allowing for even more free turns to hurt the enemy.

I am not a great or even good player sometimes, I will admit this, but if there's anything I feel strongly about, it's that sub is not healthy for trademarked.
 
I don’t know why I’m so worried about Shell Smash being broken in Trademarked. Maybe it’s because of the huge boosts it grants, maybe it’s because you can run four attacks + augment it further with a boosting item.
 
Just getting back into things, but TR looks good this gen. It was decent last gen, but outclassed by stall, which there wasn't much reason not to play -- but the mons it lost (Sub MHera and TG Xurk) were a little awkward on TR anyway, and it gained the Gen 8 fossils.

These sets have a lot of room for improvement but w/e.

Setter:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Trick Room
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Wish
- U-turn

Jirachi is one of the few mons with TR + pivot. (Other options are Mew, Orbeetle, and a handful of mons that sound very outclassed, like Xatu and Klinklang.) It can also wishpass if necessary, but it shouldn't be necessary. I don't see much reason to use Hatterene as a setter over this -- you don't want your TR setter staying in much.

For offensive mons, pick a Zolt (Charge) and a Vish (Rain Dance). The Arctos have better speed for TR, but the Dracos have better defensive typing and a SR neutrality. Mixed LO Arctovish has unresisted STAB with Fishious Rend + Freeze-Dry, but Band sounds better. Example set:

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: raindance
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fishious Rend
- Leech Life / whatever
- Earthquake / whatever
- Facade

Facade is in case of WoW. Speaking of WoW, Cofa has good synergy -- if a Transform mon switches in on your fossil, you can bring in Cofa, burn it, and either switch out or click Hex.

Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Hex
- Nasty Plot / Pain Split / whatever
- Toxic / whatever
- Trick Room

Other options: LO Bulk Up Conkeldurr (or even Flame Orb Guts Conkeldurr, with status TMs everywhere), Punk Rock / Substitute Toxtricity, Sub/CM Hatterene or Cursola (Cursola also has Strength Sap), NP Vikavolt.

Three notable threats to TR are SD + priority (e.g. Sucker Punch Decidueye), status spam Hex teams (esp. TWave Rotom), and Sub mons like Exca. I'm not sure how to deal with these. Guts Conk could help with status spam, I guess? It's too bad Marowak isn't in this gen. Sparkling Aria bypasses Substitute and has synergy with Rain Dance Dracovish, but I doubt Primarina can switch in on Exca, and that doesn't help much with status spam. Mudsdale learns Double Kick but that's incredibly lame and its only TM options are Stealth Rock or Iron Defense.
 
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https://pokepast.es/d8f5b685f67f7a8e
I have my 1st tm team here,and I pointed out some things they can check on the description
Sirfetch'd @ Assault Vest
Ability: swordsdance
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Knock Off
- Meteor Assault
- Throat Chop
This Sirfetch is a +2 ATK sweeper also with Assault Vest to boost SpD,so nothing much,but pretty good
Araquanid @ Flame Orb
Ability: irondefense
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Facade
- Sticky Web
- Toxic
- Waterfall
This Araquanid has Flame Orb to boost Facade damage and Toxic and Sticky Web to status,and Waterfall in case of Ghost type
Cinderace @ Life Orb
Ability: sandattack
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
Not really that good,because Sand Attack can be countered by M-Bounce/Haze or Heart swap but has a powerful sweep set
Bisharp @ Assault Vest
Ability: toxic
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Throat Chop
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
I like this because it can do something not many sweepers do,check walls.Assault Vest and sweep set team up to make it a force,and facing walls?Never fear,Toxic is there to help.Even if they pivot,they have to come back at some point,and Toxic cant be rid of by pivot.
Grimmsnarl @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: taunt
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Impish Nature
- Spirit Break
- Darkest Lariat
- False Surrender
- Fake Out
Grimmsnarl is a sweeper with Helmet and the Taunt it has makes it a checker for the common Spore or any status will be blocked,so abilities are basically removed if you do the special trademarked charm.
Maractus @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: leechseed
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Petal Blizzard
- Drain Punch
- Wood Hammer
Unfortunatley,the list ends with Maractus
This is a good Maractus,as it has Helmet and Leech seed+Drain Punch back it up from Wood Hammer recoil and Seed Bomb+Petal Blizzard are just fillers,but the powerful Wood Hammer recoil is easily healed in exchange for that

Comment it please,thanks
 
I honestly prefer a devoted TR setter Jirachi like this:

:jirachi:
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: trickroom
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
- Meteor Mash / Wish / Reflect / Light Screen / Toxic / Stealth Rock

Slow pivots are better than fast pivots for getting teammates in. Healing Wish refreshes a teammate for another round. Trick leaves an opponent with a Choice Scarf that truly sucks in Trick Room. I guess this Jirachi can attempt to sweep if it has Meteor Mash, but another support move is probably a good idea. Mew can pull off a similar set and has access to Teleport and Self-Destruct.

On TR teams, I also heavily prefer a secondary Trick Room setter with Substitute as the trademark (such as, yes, Hatterene). They're close to guaranteed to set up Trick Room and take advantage of it.
 
Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: raindance
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fishious Rend
- Leech Life / whatever
- Earthquake / whatever
- Facade

Facade is in case of WoW. Speaking of WoW, Cofa has good synergy -- if a Transform mon switches in on your fossil, you can bring in Cofa, burn it, and either switch out or click Hex.
This might be good for team support, but it feels a bit suboptimal because the 50% boost of rain is replacing the 50% boost of Strong Jaw.

Sirfetch'd @ Assault Vest
Ability: swordsdance
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Knock Off
- Meteor Assault
- Throat Chop
This Sirfetch'd is a +2 ATK sweeper also with Assault Vest to boost SpD,so nothing much,but pretty good
Close Combat is infinitely better than Meteor Assault, and you don't really need two Dark moves. I'd replace Throat Chop with Poison Jab to hit Fairies, or maybe Quick Attack for backup priority. I would also run Speed instead of HP, as it needs more than just Sticky Web to outrun stuff.

Araquanid @ Flame Orb
Ability: irondefense
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Facade
- Sticky Web
- Toxic
- Waterfall
This Araquanid has Flame Orb to boost Facade damage and Toxic and Sticky Web to status,and Waterfall in case of Ghost type
Flame Orb + the lack of Water Bubble means that Waterfall is going to be hitting like a pool noodle. Sticky Web sounds like a good trademark, but Araquanid without Water Bubble sounds kinda ass, so I would replace is with something else. At first glance, Vikavolt seems to be a good choice, as trademarked Sticky Web bypasses its slow speed by getting them up immediately, and it can Volt Switch out into your frailer sweepers.

Alternatively, you could just run a regular Water Bubble Araquanid, because it's strong as hell.

Cinderace @ Life Orb
Ability: sandattack
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
Not really that good,because Sand Attack can be countered by M-Bounce/Haze or Heart swap but has a powerful sweep set
Sand Attack is not a good move as you said, so swap it out for Substitute, because it's phenominal. You also really don't need both Pyro Ball and Flare Blitz, so swap out Flare Blitz for either High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt. or Gunk Shot. You also have two Dark-types capable of using Sucker Punch, so you might also want to swap that out for something else as well. Also swap out U-turn for Bulk Up to better abuse Substitute.

Bisharp @ Assault Vest
Ability: toxic
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Throat Chop
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
I like this because it can do something not many sweepers do,check walls.Assault Vest and sweep set team up to make it a force,and facing walls?Never fear,Toxic is there to help.Even if they pivot,they have to come back at some point,and Toxic cant be rid of by pivot.
Bisharp doesn't need Toxic to check walls. I can check walls just by being stronk. Defiant is very useful on a Sticky Web team because it punishes Defog, and because Sirfetch'd is already using Swords Dance as a trademark, I think a standard Bisharp would be best here. Defiant + SD + Iron Head + Knock + Sucker.

Grimmsnarl @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: taunt
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Impish Nature
- Spirit Break
- Darkest Lariat
- False Surrender
- Fake Out
Grimmsnarl is a sweeper with Helmet and the Taunt it has makes it a checker for the common Spore or any status will be blocked,so abilities are basically removed if you do the special trademarked charm.
Taunt doesn't actually block trademarks. Thunder Wave sounds like a good way to further lower your opponent's speed, while Power Swap can steal their offensive boosts. You once again have redundant moves with Darkest Lariat and False Surrender, so False Surrender can be replaced with something more useful. Sucker Punch sounds good for priority, but Grimmsnarl has a ton of nifty coverage moves. I'm also generally not sold on Fake Out outside of doubles (unless it's STAB or Medicham) so I would drop that for... something. Taunt? Bulk Up? Coverage?

Maractus @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: leechseed
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Petal Blizzard
- Drain Punch
- Wood Hammer
Unfortunatley,the list ends with Maractus
This is a good Maractus,as it has Helmet and Leech seed+Drain Punch back it up from Wood Hammer recoil and Seed Bomb+Petal Blizzard are just fillers,but the powerful Wood Hammer recoil is easily healed in exchange for that
Even if Maractus was good, this moveset is still just awful. Wood Hammer + Petal Blizzard can maybe sometimes be excused if you want the option to avoid recoil, but Petal Blizzard + Seed Bomb is completely useless. You've got a ton of physical attackers already, and HOME just recently dropped, so why not use Celebi instead?

Here's the improved team: https://pokepast.es/f70d403fbfcdfc52
I also changed the items and EVs to make them more conducive to an offensive team.

I don't really know what the important targets are in this meta, which is why a lot of the coverage options are so broad. If someone more experienced than I would like to improve the team further, be my guest.
 
Personal complaint time!

NGas should be better. Since the trademarks are replacements for abilities, why not block them like NGas? But no, it is completely useless unless it's the really rare occasion that someone is using a regular pokemon. It should be able to stop trademarks, but why doesn't it?

Also pheonixace, you need some help moderating. I suggest Heavyweapons because of all the stuff he has been doing to benefit this meta.
 
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