Metagame Trademarked

The Moment you have (me included) have all been waiting for folks. With the blessing of sir ti I now bring to you:

175617

Substitute Is Being Suspected as a Trademark

If you ask any of the better players , and as many of you have made clear, substitute is without a doubt the strongest trademark in the meta. Though it provides alot of utility to teams it also however is very lacking in terms of actual counterplay and with the right mons behind them and team support they can easily carry an entire team to victory. There are options of get through or break through sub but in many cases we find them to be inconsistent and not efficient enough to consistently deal with all sub users. And yes the hoopa U suspect isnt done but TI has permitted to be able to start a suspect for sub this late into it, giving us exactly two weeks for sub suspect.
How to Vote:
  • Make an alt with SUB at the start of the name.
  • Have at least 30 games on the alt
  • Have a gxe of 78 minimum
  • Vote BAN, DO NOT BAN, or ABSTAIN
  • I would prefer a small paragraph explaining your reasoning for your vote
Substitute will be allowed on ladder for the duration of the suspect. The suspect will end in two weeks on May 31st at 7am est.

Edit: Reqs will be given to winners and runner ups for Trademarked dailies on 5/20 and 5/27.
 
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alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Now that I finally have my reqs, here are my thoughts on Hoopa-U.

At first I was on the fence about it, and I was (and still am) surprised that it was suspected before Substitute. The meteoric rise of Substitute Hoopa-U, I thought, was a symptom of a much greater disease. However, after careful consideration, I’ve come to realize that in this case the “symptom” is more akin to hemorrhaging than sneezing. Hoopa-U completely turns the meta on its head, and this is especially apparent when you consider than Substitute only became a dominant force after its absence because it completely invalidates any other Substitute users with Hyperspace Fury. I haven’t seen such a clear case of “broken checking broken” since the Aegislash/Pheromosa debacle. In the absence of Substitute, Hoopa-U manages to become even more problematic, as opposing teams lose Substitute-abusing switch-ins like Buzzwole (probably the absolute best Hoopa-U answer) and Conkeldurr, which tank Hyperspace Fury and force a switch-out if you can get them in safely. (Even these lose to the less common but still notable Hyperspace Hole sets.) Also, since Substitute is no longer available to Hoopa-U, other sets that are even more devious will rise to take its place, such as Nasty Plot, Laser Focus and even Trick, making it a lot more difficult to predict. Additionally, there’s basically no downside to putting Hoopa-U on any team—it’s more splashable than Lando or even Chansey. All of this adds up to make an absolutely ridiculous Pokémon that probably should have been banned from the beginning, and I think it’s about time that we ban Hoopa-Unbound.
 

Attachments

Tapu Koko @ Magnet
Ability: thunderwave
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roost
- Defog

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Band
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: substitute
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Rock Slide

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Heal Bell

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: haze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Taunt
- Toxic

Empoleon @ Assault Vest
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Earthquake
- Liquidation
- Ice Beam
- Aqua Jet
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Alright, I'm done laddering. I have been using mainly sub heatran and sub alolawak, and the ridiculous amount of work they put in is a shame. Evene without wish, having 4 subs is more than enough when ur sub user is a wallbreaker like marowak. Stuff like sub conkeldurr isnt very problematic, but when you have an actual sub abuser, this trademark is no joke.


A random team that I built and actually wins cuz sub alolawak is insane:
Stakataka @ Life Orb
Ability: stealthrock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Trick Room

Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Fang

Cresselia @ Eject Button
Ability: Trick Room
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lunar Dance
- Ice Beam
- Moonblast
- Recycle

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Substitute
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Bone
- Fire Punch
- Bonemerang
- Swords Dance

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: raindance
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald

Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Fly
- U-turn


Also I tried playing a stall game vs a dude who had slowbro+pex+chansey+rotomwash+gliscor, my heatran almost got rid of all of them but lost on a 5050 so im sad cuz i dont have an epic replay showing sub's brokenness. Just wanted to say that some pokémons become godlike with @ sub, they just dont care about anything and kill everything. Scariest sub users are 404+ HP mons and ghosts (buzzwole, ttar, alolawak, gengar, hoopa ) cuz they come in on chansey which is a popular mon and they destroy its teammates. I've lost 6-0 to sub marowak and am not ashamed of it; sub is broken.

I'm voting BAN SUB.
 
(Galvantula) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: stickyweb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Bug Buzz
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]

One of my favourite Pokemon in this meta. He's a very good lead because of his speed and his ability to Volt Switch if the Matchup isn't favorable. In addition, if your opponent lead Landorus without Scarf you can easily OS him with HP-Ice. You also can run it with Focus Sash to win your 1vs1 or to become a switch in to some Pokemon slower. The only issue with him is the accuracy of Thunder without Coumpound Eyes, so maybe you can try Thunderbolt. He's a great counter to a lot of offensive theat like Garchomp & Weavile.

To work in pair with the Sticky, I run Celeestela offensive.

(Celesteela) @ Metronome
Ability: leechseed
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Autotomize

Leech seed offers the possibility to run it with Metronome instead of Leftovers. He can easily switch in and restore his HP. Autotomize is here if the Sticky is removed or to counter scarf. Spamming Air Slash can makes Celesteela easily sweep a entire team.

And now, my third and last favourite Pokemon : Kommo-o

(Kommo-o) (M) @ Kommonium Z
Ability: dragondance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch

Dragon Dance first tour makes him faster than his opponent. Close combat is a powerful stab. Poison Jab is here to kill every fairy and Ice Punch is used to counter Lando-T. Using Z-Clanging Scales after one DD create a real monster.
 
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175887

Identifying as SUBi mon courroux
Well i just got the reqs, and im not going to make a soliloquy like my boy Ktutverde. So i will say let's ban this shit it's too op. You come in and it's a free switch everytime. Heatran sub just completely destroy the tiers and when he have a wish support it's even more OP imo. I also saw and been rekt by a komoo o Sub focus punch lmao it was incredibly strong and with the wish support as chansey everytime. So yeah i will definitely vote BAN
 
Leech seed offers the possibility to run it with Metronome instead of Leftovers. He can easily switch in and restore his HP. Autotomize is here if the Sticky is removed or to counter scarf. Spamming Air Slash can makes Celesteela easily sweep a entire team. Let's spam flinch and Spa Boost.
Now pardon me if I'm wrong here

But wouldn't giving Celesteela the ability leech seed remove the Beast Boost and thus not boost its Spa for every kill?
 
Now pardon me if I'm wrong here

But wouldn't giving Celesteela the ability leech seed remove the Beast Boost and thus not boost its Spa for every kill?
You are totally right ! Beast Boost is removed by Leech seed, but after some Air slash it is like you had your boost. I'm gonna edit my post, thank you.
 
176033


God, laddering is a massive pain right now. I'm going to vote Ban substitute. The metagame is exhausting to play in right now. While teams may differ slightly the vast majority on the ladder are built around a Wish-Substitute core. Wether that substitute user is Buzzwole, Tyranitar, Heatran, Celesteela, Scizor, Hoopa-C or Kommo-o doesn't matter.

Essentially it not only lets you switch in your wallbreaker for free but inconjunction with Chansey you can do it indefinitely. A lot of the games I played came down to who can overcome the others wish-sub core or even worse - who would win the Heatran speed tie - with a metagame brimming with potential it's saddening to see it boil down to that.

The most effective teams on the ladder were those who best supported their sub-wish core. It's one thing to overcome a wish-sub core without support but when it's supported by hazard stackers, volt-turn cores and pursuit trappers your counter-play becomes severely limited.

That being said, I absolutely adore this metagame. It's refreshing and the potentials are immense. I look forward to playing more and seeing how the metagame evolves when/if substitute is canned.
 


DO NOT BAN. imo the only broken user was hoopa-u. if you must, ban the one or two abusers some of you are claiming are broken. but sub itself is fine and i did not face any issues with it while laddering to convince me otherwise. i can probably understand a marowak-a test tho.

also ban chansey. wish chansey is too good for tm.
 
aw man I have to delurk now
subbuzzgraf.png

I don't think Substitute is such an outlier on the risk/reward curve. There are ways to pressure Sub teams and increase the risk of bringing in (or leaving in) a Sub mon, even when it's part of a SubWish core:

- Hazard-stacking teams force a Sub user to choose between eating chip damage and/or poison on their Sub/Wish mon and Defogging

- Trick mons like Noivern can disable something that's left in without a Sub

- VoltTurn chip damage can break a Sub and force physical Sub users out, especially when paired with WoW users like Cofagrigus or strong attackers

- Sub-bypassing moves like Noivern's Boomburst, Primarina's Sparkling Aria, Kommo-o's Clanging Scales, Specs TG Xurk's Round, and Gardevoir-Mega's Hyper Voice can force Sub users out

- Chansey switchins can be predicted and answered with Knock Off or a Pursuit trapper like Weavile or Bisharp

- Z-moves can bypass a weakened Chansey's Protect

Importantly, most of these tools would still be useful after a Sub ban. Hazard stacking, Trick, VoltTurn, Knock Off utility, Pursuit trappers, and Z-moves have valid utility other than dealing with Sub. Even most of the bypassing moves would still be useful - the only exceptions are Sparkling Aria (probably outclassed by Scald) and Round.

And is Sub itself the problem, or is it the SubWish core? Since a mon that's going to take 25% on switchin needs recovery to viably come in >4 times, which isn't an unreasonable demand in a bulky meta like TM, the number of viable Sub users drops off dramatically outside a SubWish core - of the mons Imperator Romanum listed, the only ones with reliable recovery (i.e. 50%) are Buzzwole and Scizor, and I hardly ever see Scizor. (There's also Gliscor on stall, and I think I've seen Sub Hydreigon and Vikavolt once or twice.) So Sub sets on mons like Alolawak, Tyranitar, and (to a lesser extent because immune to Toxic Spikes) Heatran will be heavily pressured outside SubWish.

Of the components of the core, Sub has a wider range of viability than Wish. I'll usually want Sub no matter what I'm building - to give a physical attacker protection from WoW TMs, give a utility mon a free turn (e.g. U-Turn/Defog/Roost Scizor), or just have an answer to TMs like Leech Seed - but running Wish strongly encourages stall or at least semi-stall, so if the core turns out to be overcentralizing and/or broken, I'd rather see Wish go than Sub.

Sure, most teams are going to have a Sub user (whereas offensive teams don't need Wish) but just because something is central to a meta doesn't mean it's overcentralizing - cf. Pdon in Ubers, Lando-T in OU, Imposter Chansey and Sturdinja in BH, Tomohawk in Gen 6 CAP, or even WoW here in TM, which strongly discourages the use of physical attackers that aren't either Fire-type or running TM Sub. These are all things that you'll usually want to run - Pdon is at >70% usage in Ubers 1760 - and that you'll want to prepare for, but (unlike e.g. Hoopa-U) you have a decent range of options in preparing for them.

tl;dr: voting DO NOT BAN

Mega Roomba (Magearna) @ Assault Vest
Ability: trickroom
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Aura Sphere
- Fleur Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch

Primarinyaa (Primarina) @ Choice Specs
Ability: reflect
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Lt. Xurge (Xurkitree) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tail Glow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Round

Richard Nixon (Marowak-Alola) @ Thick Club
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Knock Off
- Bonemerang

Spikesbane (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
- Roost

Punch Buggy (Buzzwole) @ Fightinium Z
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Roost

AV Mag sets TR and pivots out. Aside from late-game or clicking Ice Beam on a predicted Ground switch-in, that's all it does. If Mag gets KOed, you probably lose - there's no backup TR setter. But I haven't needed one.

Reflect Primarina might look like it's entirely an anti-Sub teamslot, but it's also there to check SD Goli, surprise Ferro switchins with HP Fire, and set a screen for the rest of the team, which aside from Buzzwole doesn't have much physical bulk. Primarina hardly ever clicks Ice Beam, so could run Scald (for burns) or Hydro Pump (for OHKOing 252/252+ Heatran, although with the damage calculator's specially defensive set Hydro Pump only provides an ~11% higher chance of netting the OHKO than Sparkling Aria) instead - I'm not really losing a moveslot to Sub here. Could maybe be replaced with WoW Jellicent or Trick Noivern.

Specs TG Xurk breaks things. It 2HKOs Eviolite Chansey. I am losing a moveslot to Sub here, but Xurk's movepool makes the Kardashians look deep so who cares.

SD Alolawak also breaks things. Not much to say here. Bonemerang loses 10% accuracy vs. Earthquake to break subs and sashes, although does anything run a sash?

Zapdos is a defogger. It isn't very good and could stand to be replaced, but I'm not sure what with. Usually gets sacced after the opponent's hazard setter is down. I had Heat Wave on it instead of HP Ice for a while.

Buzzwole is a slow, hard-hitting Sub user. I haven't tried Focus Punch on it, but that could work too, especially for more damage on the Z-move against the Protect of a low-HP Chansey. This slot was Conkeldurr for a long time, but it didn't have enough bulk and Drain Punch as sole recovery wasn't reliable enough.

 
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but just because something is central to a meta doesn't mean it's overcentralizing - cf. Pdon in Ubers
I think you do bring some good points and it's nice to have a diverse array of opinions, but I don't think this part is exactly accurate - sure, Ubers can't really ban PDon, because it's Ubers at the end of the say, but that doesn't mean PDon isn't extremely overcentralizing and that it wouldn't be banned in most normal metagames.
 
176164


BAN. ban wish also.

Some sub users suck, ill be honest. like Ktütverde said sub conk sucks. But most sub users are indeed broken. Its more than a few. Not to forget once you ban one pokemon another could take its place. Sub + Wish allows a pokemon to switch in many times. All these things combined make banning sub what seems like the correct thing to do. But what I think should have happened was a wish suspect and then suspect sub. I feel wish is going to be banned. I would definitely like to hear what other people think of wish beyond some of the comments ive read. It just is so hard to punish w/ wish.

Ik this is like nothing but im going to go outside lol.
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
I think some details aren't clear here. There are people who want to ban:
-Sub
-The best sub users
-Wish
-Chansey

I agree with banning sub and maybe suspecting chansey. However I don't really agree with banning all the "broken" sub users cuz 1) that will take forever (3, 4, 5, suspects?) and looks like a very artificial way of dealing with the sub issue. Otherwise I like TheImmortal's idea. I also don't agree with banning wish: the only annoying wish user is chansey, umbreon and alomomola are not problems at all for example. I have to say that while chansey makes sub problematic, the other way round works too: imagine pairing chansey with a pokemon able to make infinite disguises: that's pretty much the concept of shedinja stall but with something totally safe and strong over shedinja.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-911890796 : reminder of sub's insanity and 100% safe use of it.

Good ideas ranking (by me):

1) banning sub.

2) not banning sub and banning chansey. But this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-912044794 will keep happening (credits to Clefable , that's their team and it's broke af).

3) not banning sub and banning wish as a whole. Seems weird cuz only chansey can use sub very well. You could tell me: "but Arena trap was banned in OU----->PU". Remember that there is only 3 arena users: dug, dig and trapinch, and all of them were problematic in their respective tiers.

4) not banning sub nor wish and banning the broken sub users:
-marowak-alola (cant be countered),
-hoopa (ghost-psychic) (ignores opposing subs with hyperspace hole),
-blacephalon (power, free setup on chansey, beats heartswap magearna easily),
-buzzwole (immense bulk and focuspunch) ,
-heatran (impossible to counter/ safe trapping),
-tyranitar (safe trapping),
-weavile (safe trapping),
-kommo-o (kommoniumZ DD nightmarish behind a sub)

Any other complex ban idea isn't good. Regarding TI's idea (4), it's true that there aren't so many Sub abusers (eh, there are almost 1K pokemons and my list above only has 8 pokemons). But Trademarked doesn't allow the use of so many pokemons: only the best users of the best abilities are worth using. It's not centralized, but not a tier where u can use everything either. I do believe these are the 8 really broke sub users, and banning 8 pokemons one by one when they all are banworthy because of sub only makes little sense imo.

Thx for reading! I'm looking forward reading replies to my post, so we can hopefully get a clearer picture of the current metagame's problems.
 
Some sub users suck, ill be honest. like Ktütverde said sub conk sucks.
I'm sorry for picking apart another post, but how is Buzzwole one of the best sub abusers in the meta and Conk sucks as a sub user? Conk has a 100+ HP sub, STAB FPunch and access to Knock Off, it's slightly stronger than Buzz and way slower, fitting TR well. If we were to ban the sub users
ktüt mentioned, I'm sure Conk would take its place in many teams. Not having Roost is not really relevant for as long as Wish is still allowed. (Taunt I guess? lol)

As for the Wish vs Sub debate, even tho I had a Wish Chansey in my team, between just the sheer pressure of Sub Tran + TSpikes and the recovery from Lefties + Protect, most matches I didn't even need Wish healing for Tran. I'm sure banning Chansey or even Wish wouldn't change how oppressive Sub is, both at teambuilding and during a battle.
 
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SUSPECT FOR HOOPA U IS OVER

The results are

Ban:10
do not ban: 0
Abstain: 1

So with a landslide of 90.90% for ban, hoopa u is now banned in trademarked.

tagging The Immortal


SideNote: Vr for trademarked is almost done (though sub suspect may flip it upside down if banned) and I will try to have it posted by tonight.Some are still being contested but most are cemented and I would be willing to accept any nominations if you cna reasonably prove something deserves a placement or should be higher or lower. Thanks to Funbot28 for creating the doc for in the first place to help with the vr and SamHPL for contributing with some placements. Also to Imperator Romanum for giving some further nom and placement ideas through a vr that he and a few om room users made. Honestly I cant hop on ladder as much as i would like to since I work for a larger part of the day, so honestly any nominations are greatly appreciated.

Edit: and Ktütverde for contributing alot as well lol. Sorry memory bad lol and it was late for me when I was posting
 
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I'm sorry for picking apart another post, but how is Buzzwole one of the best sub abusers in the meta and Conk sucks as a sub user? Conk has a 100+ HP sub, STAB FPunch and access to Knock Off, it's slightly stronger than Buzz and way slower, fitting TR well. If we were to ban the sub users
ktüt mentioned, I'm sure Conk would take its place in many teams. Not having Roost is not really relevant for as long as Wish is still allowed. (Taunt I guess? lol)

As for the Wish vs Sub debate, even tho I had a Wish Chansey in my team, between just the sheer pressure of Sub Tran + TSpikes and the recovery from Lefties + Protect, most matches I didn't even need Wish healing for Tran. I'm sure banning Chansey or even Wish wouldn't change how oppressive Sub is, both at teambuilding and during a battle.
oh i think ypu read it wrong. i think both should be banned although i feel like wish before sub to test. sub woul d still prob be broken agreed . now that i think about it conk maybe could be good but the teams ive used so far havent been hurt by it at all. maybe i could be more open minded to its effects on other teams bit 2bh i havent seen it do well yet.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
SUSPECT FOR HOOPA U IS OVER

The results are

Ban:10
do not ban: 0
Abstain: 1

So with a landslide of 90.90% for ban, hoopa u is now banned in trademarked.

tagging The Immortal


SideNote: Vr for trademarked is almost done (though sub suspect may flip it upside down if banned) and I will try to have it posted by tonight.Some are still being contested but most are cemented and I would be willing to accept any nominations if you cna reasonably prove something deserves a placement or should be higher or lower. Thanks to Funbot28 for creating the doc for in the first place to help with the vr and SamHPL for contributing with some placements. Also to Imperator Romanum for giving some further nom and placement ideas through a vr that he and a few om room users made. Honestly I cant hop on ladder as much as i would like to since I work for a larger part of the day, so honestly any nominations are greatly appreciated
For the VR, please put Crabominable in D. It's an excellent abuser of sub+focus punch, as well as being able to shit on stuff in trick room. I can pull up some replays, but they are pre-hoopa-u ban. I'll make a team with it to try to get reqs for sub suspect and post replays here.
 
176213


I'm voting BAN.

I didn't even know if I was gonna actually go for reqs and was just trying some stuff out at low ladder and decided to use Clefable's team. I just kept playing not even really thinking about it and ended up only realizing how close I was when I was at like 25 games. Really, really fun team (more fun to use than mine lol) and Mirror Move Koko is a godsend against the Sub Tran spam that has been going on. The Eject Button spam + MM + MF give you a lot of options on how to handle threats and that's fun. Still, as fun as the team is, it's another showing of how strong Sub Tran is, and just Sub in general.
 
Yeah yeah I don't have reqs to vote, but I might as well put down what I think about Substitute in Trademarked.

Simply put: Substitute should not remain legal in Trademarked because it enables unfairly-easy win conditions for any team. It doesn't matter what kind of team you're running or playstyle you're aiming to use; Substitute grants you an easier and sometimes undeserving victory by allowing a nearly-free setup opportunity with very limited risk or counterplay against it.

On Offensive teams, Substitute enables a free switchin or setup opportunity for your cleaner or sweeper to run over the opponent. Now you don't have to worry about poor defenses or setup availability nearly as much as before, because more often than not it's a freebie for you. On Defensive and especially Balance teams, however, Substitute just becomes insulting. On top of supplying the user with an easy switchin, it also has the benefits of a free recovery with Wish, additional defenses with Screens, easier hazard removal with Defog, and the ability to set up whatever it well pleases with the free time it's given, on top of (and this is the big one) not burdening any momentum your team may have. This means your Stall core can now run offensive pressure with a random Substitute sweeper like Kartana because it can afford the space, or a setup enabler like Breloom because it now has a free opportunity to mess up the opponent, or a booster like Victini or Kommo-o because your opponent will have to adapt to the new change in pace you brought in while you can set it up without issue.

The last example explains exactly what I think the problem with Substitute is: It lets the player easily set up new rules for the match while forcing the opponent to play by them. Even though there are ways to combat Substitute so that it doesn't become inherently overpowered, the sheer amount of free pressure it puts on the opponent for the simple reason of running it is incredibly unhealthy, especially with Wish users (hi, Chansey) granting them free entry to do whatever they want for almost no real cost.

In short, Substitute allows effortless turnarounds and pressure to the point that it's pretty much as bad as allowing Sleep moves in Trademarked, and has every reason to be banned.
 
I have to say that while chansey makes sub problematic, the other way round works too: imagine pairing chansey with a pokemon able to make infinite disguises: that's pretty much the concept of shedinja stall but with something totally safe and strong over shedinja.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-911890796 : reminder of sub's insanity and 100% safe use of it.
Sub isn't as safe as infinite Disguise would be - you lose 25% if you have 25% to lose. Sub mons without reliable recovery or Wish support can effectively be damaged by forcing them out, since they're going to lose 25% plus hazard damage when they come back in.

In this case, Kommo-o forces out Alolawak and then gets sacced to MMaw, but if Kommo-o had been kept alive, it could've forced out or KOed Alolawak on the second switchin (assuming rocks stayed up) even under TR:

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Kommo-o: 202-238 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 144-169 (44.4 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If you're playing CAP (which is what I know best; I don't play standard tiers much), you're running Tomohawk (a physical wall with Prankster Haze and Roost) as your only answer to Cawmodore (a Belly Drum sweeper), and you see a Cawm in team preview, you have to make sure your Tomo can live a +6 Bullet Punch so it can Haze off the BD. Sub attackers, like Cawmodore, are things you have to prepare for and play around - but there are a variety of answers to them that can put in other work. In the case of Cawmodore, Tomohawk was the physically defensive mon til gen 7 brought in more Fairies, and Kommonium Z Kommo-o would still be a strong setup sweeper with a sound move.

I'm sorry for picking apart another post, but how is Buzzwole one of the best sub abusers in the meta and Conk sucks as a sub user?
Buzzwole has more physical bulk (important for a physical Sub user, since even the threat of a broken Sub forces it out if there's a WoW TM in the back) and reliable recovery in Roost, whereas the only advantage Conkeldurr has over Buzzwole is access to Knock Off.

Reliable recovery makes a big difference in longer games - without it, your opponent will have a much easier time whittling your Sub user down to below 25% + hazards. If Conk has to come in on something, your opponent can just switch to a Reflect / Cotton Guard / Iron Defense mon or a defensive Fighting resist like Toxapex, and then what do you do?
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
176254

When I saw myself consistently winning with a copypasted sample team that everyone in the meta should be prepared for, to the extent that I peaked at 12th and 15th on the ladder with two separate alts, I knew that something was rotten in the state of Trademarked. The exact nature of that “something” is pretty clear—namely, Substitute. Here are some of the things I’ve seen people running as Substitute answers, in case you don’t think it’s a problem:
-Primarina
-Meloetta
-Noivern
-Swellow
-Infiltrator Chandelure
-Hoopa-Confined
-Chatot
-Flash Fire Air Balloon Heatran, which hard counters the common Sub Heatran set
-An honest-to-God Infiltrator Jumpluff

I have Heatran as my Substitute user, and it’s absolutely ridiculous. Even the things that theoretically check it can lose to it. The only things that can even remotely switch into it are bulky Water-types and other Sub users, and even then, the Water-types take a solid chunk from Magma Storm and get trapped. It’s also one of the best scouting Pokémon out there—just clicking Protect and switching into Me First/Mirror Move/[insert other appropriate response] is one of the least risky strategies I’ve ever adopted in any game. That strategy alone completely invalidates every offensive playstyle. I’ve beaten teams that were specifically built around countering Substitute. I’ve won against competent, well-put-together teams with a team of Heatran and five bad memes. Substitute has carried me to near the top of the ladder multiple times. It’s completely braindead, nearly impossible to reliably beat, and severely restricts teambuilding. For those reasons, I, and everyone else on the ladder, believe that Substitute should be banned with extreme prejudice.
 
Ladies and gentlemen, step right up step right up!

Is substitute Heatran setting your defensive cores ablaze? Are you finding Marowak-A impossible to switch into? Does Chansey make you want to pull your hair out?

Well, look no further! I bring you the next generation of Trademarked memes; one pokemon and one set that can make all your dreams come true!


I present, Trick Assault vest Tapu Fini!

176269


Tapu Fini @ Assault Vest
Ability: trick
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 12 SpA / 176 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Scald
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Alright alright, I'll stop now.

Trick Tapu Fini was inspired by a switcheroo Noivern I saw on the ladder. Tapu Fini has a couple things over most of the other trick users, like Mew/Victini/Togekiss etc. mainly its excellent water/fairy typing alongside its natural bulk and access to defog/taunt and other utility moves. The set is very standard and is nothing out of the ordinary so I won't spend much time explaining it (12 SpA for the guranteed 2HKO on offensive Heatran and 8 speed for speed creeps)

Trick in the current metagame

Trick is shockingly effective against the metagame right now. Most teams on the ladder are built around a combination of two or more of these five playstyles; wish-sub cores, hazard dominance, stall, trick room and volt-turn. If you use Tapu Fini right you can cripple all of these playstyles.

Note: Tapu Fini wont break these cores alone, it's not a wall or stallbreaker - it's meant to cripple your opponents team by throwing a wrench, or in this case Assault vest, in their plan.

Wish Chansey

Tapu Fini is one of the few ways to reliably decimate Chansey cores. If your pokemon is faster than Chansey you can hard switch into Tapu Fini and swap its eviolite out with your Assault Vest - essentially neutralising Chansey as a reliable wish passer for the rest of the game. It can't use protect, status you or heal up in a prolonged fight.

Substitute

Here I'm mainly referring to Heatran, Excadrill, Celesteela and Marowak-A. The first three function best when they can use their status moves. Taunt for Heatran, Rocks for Excadrill and Leech seed for Celesteela. Without access to these mons they're significantly easier to handle. Chansey can 1v1 Heatran without Taunt, Excadrill can't toxic or put up rocks and Celesteela can't sit behind a substitute leeching of your team. Give them a gift and watch your opponent try to win without their stallbreaker or hazard setter. Marowak-A is the most fun though, not only will you prevent them from Swords dancing up but Trick removes their Thick Club - making them laughably weak. Adamant Flare Blitz only has a 6% chance to 3HKO Chansey.
Unfortunately you won't really beat the rest of the sub users, Buzzwole and Tyranitar don't care if they have assault vest or not.

Volt-turn & Hazard dominance

With some insight into your opponents team and who their hazard controllers are, for example Defog Zapdos/Landours-Therian/Koko, a well placed trick can shift the hazard domain into your hands. Usually they have either defog or recovery/stealth rock/reflect as their TM, Assault vest will either prevent them from defogging outright or recovering more health.

Trick Room

Probably the worst match up for this mon, but Trick Room can still be used effectively to neutralise powerful wallbreakers like Marowa-A, Specs Xurkitree, Primarina and Stakataka. You can also Trick Assault Vest to their secondary Trick Room setter to prevent them from setting up more Trick Rooms.

Stall

Here is where Tapu Fini can really shine. I've added a replay of me using the set against SamHPLs stall team below to showcase how Tapu Fini can cripple your opponent. Stall applies less offensive pressure which allows you to really stock around your opponents items over a long game. A lot of the stall teams use Assault Vest Magearna and that's great news, now you can give your assault vest to their Chansey and then take Magearnas Assault Vest and pass it along to their Heatran or Pursuit trapper. Tapu Fini also has Nature's madness and taunt which is even more annoying to stall.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-914233533 (Facing off versus SamHPL s stall-team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-914277363 (Another stall team)
 
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Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
SUSPECT FOR HOOPA U IS OVER

The results are

Ban:10
do not ban: 0
Abstain: 1

So with a landslide of 90.90% for ban, hoopa u is now banned in trademarked.

tagging The Immortal


SideNote: Vr for trademarked is almost done (though sub suspect may flip it upside down if banned) and I will try to have it posted by tonight.Some are still being contested but most are cemented and I would be willing to accept any nominations if you cna reasonably prove something deserves a placement or should be higher or lower. Thanks to Funbot28 for creating the doc for in the first place to help with the vr and SamHPL for contributing with some placements. Also to Imperator Romanum for giving some further nom and placement ideas through a vr that he and a few om room users made. Honestly I cant hop on ladder as much as i would like to since I work for a larger part of the day, so honestly any nominations are greatly appreciated
It's not like I didn't enjoy contributing and doing most of the VR structure with Funbot, but I would appreciate not being forgotten and seeing SamHPL being thanked for a couple meaningless things, you know.

Also if it isn't clear enough, buzzwole completely outclasses conkeldurr and actually checks landorus and garchomp. Also has many more useful resists, better bulk, better speed. Don't use it in TR it 's not strong enough and has to predict too much, unlike sub marowak-alola which totally outclasses it there. Try it out first before ranking it where it doesn't belong at all, besides it's not even better than buzzwole on paper, so I really don't understand what is not obvious in my statement.

edit (to avoid double posting):
Ladies and gentlemen, step right up step right up!

Is substitute Heatran setting your defensive cores ablaze? Are you finding Marowak-A impossible to switch into? Does Chansey make you want to pull your hair out?

Well, look no further! I bring you the next generation of Trademarked memes; one pokemon and one set that can make all your dreams come true!


I present, Trick Assault vest Tapu Fini!

View attachment 176269

Tapu Fini @ Assault Vest
Ability: trick
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 12 SpA / 176 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Scald
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Alright alright, I'll stop now.

Trick Tapu Fini was inspired by a switcheroo Noivern I saw on the ladder. Tapu Fini has a couple things over most of the other trick users, like Mew/Victini/Togekiss etc. mainly its excellent water/fairy typing alongside its natural bulk and access to defog/taunt and other utility moves. The set is very standard and is nothing out of the ordinary so I won't spend much time explaining it (12 SpA for the guranteed 2HKO on offensive Heatran and 8 speed for speed creeps)

Trick in the current metagame

Trick is shockingly effective against the metagame right now. Most teams on the ladder are built around a combination of two or more of these five playstyles; wish-sub cores, hazard dominance, stall, trick room and volt-turn. If you use Tapu Fini right you can cripple all of these playstyles.

Note: Tapu Fini wont break these cores alone, it's not a wall or stallbreaker - it's meant to cripple your opponents team by throwing a wrench, or in this case Assault vest, in their plan.

Wish Chansey

Tapu Fini is one of the few ways to reliably decimate Chansey cores. If your pokemon is faster than Chansey you can hard switch into Tapu Fini and swap its eviolite out with your Assault Vest - essentially neutralising Chansey as a reliable wish passer for the rest of the game. It can't use protect, status you or heal up in a prolonged fight.

Substitute

Here I'm mainly referring to Heatran, Excadrill, Celesteela and Marowak-A. The first three function best when they can use their status moves. Taunt for Heatran, Rocks for Excadrill and Leech seed for Celesteela. Without access to these mons they're significantly easier to handle. Chansey can 1v1 Heatran without Taunt, Excadrill can't toxic or put up rocks and Celesteela can't sit behind a substitute leeching of your team. Give them a gift and watch your opponent try to win without their stallbreaker or hazard setter. Marowak-A is the most fun though, not only will you prevent them from Swords dancing up but Trick removes their Thick Club - making them laughably weak. Adamant Flare Blitz only has a 6% chance to 3HKO Chansey.
Unfortunately you won't really beat the rest of the sub users, Buzzwole and Tyranitar don't care if they have assault vest or not.

Volt-turn & Hazard dominance

With some insight into your opponents team and who their hazard controllers are, for example Defog Zapdos/Landours-Therian/Koko, a well placed trick can shift the hazard domain into your hands. Usually they have either defog or recovery/stealth rock/reflect as their TM, Assault vest will either prevent them from defogging outright or recovering more health.

Trick Room

Probably the worst match up for this mon, but Trick Room can still be used effectively to neutralise powerful wallbreakers like Marowa-A, Specs Xurkitree, Primarina and Stakataka. You can also Trick Assault Vest to their secondary Trick Room setter to prevent them from setting up more Trick Rooms.

Stall

Here is where Tapu Fini can really shine. I've added a replay of me using the set against SamHPLs stall team below to showcase how Tapu Fini can cripple your opponent. Stall applies less offensive pressure which allows you to really stock around your opponents items over a long game. A lot of the stall teams use Assault Vest Magearna and that's great news, now you can give your assault vest to their Chansey and then take Magearnas Assault Vest and pass it along to their Heatran or Pursuit trapper. Tapu Fini also has Nature's madness and taunt which is even more annoying to stall.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-914233533 (Facing off versus SamHPL s stall-team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-914277363 (Another stall team)
I like the trick+AV concept, but as Clefable likes to say, "switching is broken" in Trademarked. Essentially people will either switch to activate trademarks or attack. Chansey without any moves and just the trademark wish is still extremely good. I don't really imagine trick being very useful since people just hit and run in this tier.
 
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