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I think the most broken thing right now is Araquanid. 100/120/172 bulk and Regenerator makes it bulkier than Toxapex both on the physical and special sides, with the same number of weaknesses (only 3) to boot. Unlike Toxapex, it has enough offense (90 Atk) to run Assault Vest, and AV with the previously mentioned bulk makes it a better special (and physical, obviously) wall than Chansey. Fortunately, it has a Rock weakness, so at least whoever runs Araquanid will be forced to run hazard control to fully utilize Regenerator.
Now, with a buffed Attack stat and with Water Bubble being Huge Power for Water moves, it can also be a scary wallbreaker, hitting harder with Liquidation than Crawdaunt with its Adaptability Crabhammer. Unlike Crawdaunt, it has the bulk to be able to set up. Araquanid also has Spider Web to trap a passive foe, set up on them and atempt a sweep. Many possibilities. Again, fortunately, Araquanid doesn't get Aqua Jet and it is quite slow, so it's more of a wallbreaker than a sweeper. Unless you're using a Trick Room team, that is...
The vanilla Araquanid set, suicide lead, also gets a buff, with Spikes and Drizzle to further support its teammates. Granted, there's nothing broken about Drizzle Araquanid, it's just that more sets means more unpredictability and it'll be hard to predict and counterplay Regenerator/Water Bubble sets already.
The opposing Farfetch'd used Brave Bird!
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Araquanid lost 96.5% of its health!
The opposing Farfetch'd is damaged by the recoil!
Araquanid used Liquidation!
The opposing Farfetch'd lost 36% of its health!
The opposing Farfetch'd fainted!
Araquanid restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Araquanid's taunt wore off!
Yeah, I'd agree. Went a bit too far with his design, probably would drop some of that spdef and def and put it into spatk for a mixed attacker. Probably also not have Swords Dance, Bulk Up is fine alone. Hariyama also is ridiculous alongside Rampardos, pure bulk and pure power is terrifying.
Also a few errors were popping up such as U-Turn and Spectral with Golisopod and Rock Head on Rampardos.
Hariyama is truly a threat that should be looked at. 150/100/100 bulk is ludicrous. it can pull off offensive sets and defensive ones with little worry.
Hariyama @ Flame Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Ability: Guts
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch / Close Combat
- Facade
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off / Bulk Up / Slack Off
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD or 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Ability: Thick Fat
Adamant / Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
Hariyama @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Ability: Unaware
Careful Nature
- Slack Off
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off / Circle Throw
- Toxic / Bulk Up
These are Hariyama's main sets - not including things like Belly Drum - and each of them have very different checks and different styles of play. Its Guts set is a terrifying wallbreaker with its Guts boosted attacks. It also turns into a great status absorber. It practically 2HKOes the entire metagame and has no viable switchins. Its a Conkeldurr - UU situation tbh. Its Assault Vest set, probably its most balanced set, blanket checks almost every viable special attacker, and every Ice and Fire (other than Arcanine). Its a good slap on to balance builds as a glue mon. Its defensive Unaware set to me is probs the most annoying one to face, since it can outlast every set up sweeper and can potentially set up itself and reverse sweep.
Rampardos ain't broken, as it has solid defensive checks and is weak to most common forms of priority. Pitiful 97/60/60 bulk doesnt help it either. And 109 speed is only cool in the fast paced meta.
Hariyama is truly a threat that should be looked at. 150/100/100 bulk is ludicrous. it can pull off offensive sets and defensive ones with little worry.
Hariyama @ Flame Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Ability: Guts
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch / Close Combat
- Facade
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off / Bulk Up / Slack Off
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD or 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Ability: Thick Fat
Adamant / Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
Hariyama @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Ability: Unaware
Careful Nature
- Slack Off
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off / Circle Throw
- Toxic / Bulk Up
These are Hariyama's main sets - not including things like Belly Drum - and each of them have very different checks and different styles of play. Its Guts set is a terrifying wallbreaker with its Guts boosted attacks. It also turns into a great status absorber. It practically 2HKOes the entire metagame and has no viable switchins. Its a Conkeldurr - UU situation tbh. Its Assault Vest set, probably its most balanced set, blanket checks almost every viable special attacker, and every Ice and Fire (other than Arcanine). Its a good slap on to balance builds as a glue mon. Its defensive Unaware set to me is probs the most annoying one to face, since it can outlast every set up sweeper and can potentially set up itself and reverse sweep.
Rampardos ain't broken, as it has solid defensive checks and is weak to most common forms of priority. Pitiful 97/60/60 bulk doesnt help it either. And 109 speed is only cool in the fast paced meta.
I knew someone would eventually talk about the buffed Hariyama. Reason why I had made the bulk 150 / 100 / 100 is that Fighting is not that good of a Defensive Type, especially with the raise of more viable Flying, Psychic and Fairy. Hariyama is actually slow at 70 and thus the such new viable threats doesn't need Chioice Scarf to outrun it. The same bulk is supposed to combat the power creep found in the official USUM OU metagame and well... it might work too much or not seeing the echoing situation.
That's an impressive in-depth description of why Hariyama is a big fat threat. I hope it will not work too well and make this guy the Fighting-type Landorus does to how well he performs in both offensive and defensive presences...
EDIT: The best I can tell is that the best way to judge if a Pokémon would deemed too overpowered, too underwhelming or just about right is after the Type Optimization's Grand Slam tourney. Any optimized Pokémon that ended up Uber-level overpowered is a guaranteed red flag and thus a top priority.
I had put Spirit Shackle in the learnset as Gen 6 and forgot Rampardos' ability Rock Head.
Good thing that this is got tested before the Open.
Speed Tier for Type Optimisation Pokemon here AKA the only competitive related thing I can help with ;_;
Fast+ refers to 252+ Speed
Fast refers to 252 Speed
Bulky is 0 Speed EVs
Scarf included
724: Scarf Fast+ Electrode
711: Scarf Fast+ Accelgor
691: Scarf Fast+ Glalie
658: Scarf Fast Electrode
646: Scarf Fast Accelgor
628: Scarf Fast Glalie
625: Scarf Fast+ Ariados
602: Scarf Fast+ Unfezant
595: Scarf Fast+ Flygon
592: Scarf Fast+ Zoroarl
592: Scarf Fast+ Zangoose
592: Scarf Fast+ Lunatone
592: Scarf Fast+ Glaceon
592: Scarf Fast+ Cryogonal
592: Scarf Fast+ Armaldo
582: Scarf Fast+ Salazzle
579: Scarf Fast+ Talonflame
575: Scarf Fast+ Primeape
575: Scarf Fast+ Heatmor
568: Scarf Fast Ariados
562: Scarf Fast+ Dedenne
559: Scarf Fast+ Luxray
559: Scarf Fast+ Farfetch'd
549: Scarf Fast+ Lycanroc
547: Scarf Fast Unfezant
546: Scarf Fast+ Froslass
542: Scarf Fast+ Mightyena
542: Scarf Fast+ Arbok
541: Scarf Fast Flygon
538: Scarf Fast Zoroarl
538: Scarf Fast Zangoose
538: Scarf Fast Lunatone
538: Scarf Fast Glaceon
538: Scarf Fast Cryogonal
538: Scarf Fast Armaldo
529: Scarf Fast+ Golisopod
529: Scarf Fast Salazzle
526: Scarf Fast+ Scrafty
526: Scarf Fast+ Leafeon
526: Scarf Fast+ Jynx
526: Scarf Fast Talonflame
523: Scarf Fast Primeape
523: Scarf Fast Heatmor
523: Scarf Fast+ Rampardos
523: Scarf Fast+ Clawitzer
513: Scarf Fast+ Gallade
511: Scarf Fast Dedenne
509: Scarf Fast+ Toxicroak
509: Scarf Fast+ Porygon-Z
509: Scarf Fast+ Nidoking
509: Scarf Fast+ Lycanroc-Midnight
509: Scarf Fast+ Lilligant
509: Scarf Fast+ Kangaskhan
509: Scarf Fast+ Girafarig
509: Scarf Fast+ Bastiodon
509: Scarf Fast+ Arcanine
508: Scarf Fast Luxray
508: Scarf Fast Farfetch'd
506: Scarf Fast+ Vanilluxe
499: Scarf Fast Lycanroc
496: Scarf Fast Froslass
493: Scarf Fast+ Victini
493: Scarf Fast+ Parasect
493: Scarf Fast+ Mew
493: Scarf Fast+ Mandibuzz
493: Scarf Fast+ Chimecho
493: Scarf Fast Mightyena
493: Scarf Fast Arbok
483: Scarf Fast+ Emboar
482: Fast+ Electrode
481: Scarf Fast Golisopod
478: Scarf Fast Scrafty
478: Scarf Fast Leafeon
478: Scarf Fast Jynx
476: Scarf Fast+ Seviper
476: Scarf Fast+ Beartic
475: Scarf Fast Rampardos
475: Scarf Fast Clawitzer
474: Fast+ Accelgor
470: Scarf Fast+ Magmortar
466: Scarf Fast Gallade
463: Scarf Fast Toxicroak
463: Scarf Fast Porygon-Z
463: Scarf Fast Nidoking
463: Scarf Fast Lycanroc-Midnight
463: Scarf Fast Lilligant
463: Scarf Fast Kangaskhan
463: Scarf Fast Girafarig
463: Scarf Fast Bastiodon
463: Scarf Fast Arcanine
460: Fast+ Glalie
460: Scarf Fast Vanilluxe
448: Scarf Fast Victini
448: Scarf Fast Parasect
448: Scarf Fast Mew
448: Scarf Fast Mandibuzz
448: Scarf Fast Chimecho
447: Scarf Fast+ Rotom-Fan
447: Scarf Fast+ Garbodor
440: Scarf Fast+ Volcanion
439: Fast Electrode
439: Scarf Fast Emboar
433: Scarf Fast Seviper
433: Scarf Fast Beartic
431: Fast Accelgor
427: Scarf Fast+ Victreebel
427: Scarf Fast+ Shiftry
427: Scarf Fast+ Kricketune
427: Scarf Fast Magmortar
420: Scarf Fast+ Druddigon
419: Fast Glalie
416: Fast+ Ariados
410: Scarf Fast+ Nidoqueen
410: Scarf Fast+ Crustle
406: Scarf Fast Rotom-Fan
406: Scarf Fast Garbodor
401: Fast+ Unfezant
400: Scarf Fast Volcanion
397: Fast+ Flygon
394: Scarf Fast+ Poliwrath
394: Scarf Fast+ Lapras
394: Scarf Fast+ Hariyama
394: Fast+ Zoroarl
394: Fast+ Zangoose
394: Fast+ Lunatone
394: Fast+ Glaceon
394: Fast+ Cryogonal
394: Fast+ Armaldo
388: Fast+ Salazzle
388: Scarf Fast Victreebel
388: Scarf Fast Shiftry
388: Scarf Fast Kricketune
386: Fast+ Talonflame
383: Fast+ Primeape
383: Fast+ Heatmor
382: Scarf Fast Druddigon
379: Fast Ariados
377: Scarf Fast+ Wigglytuff
377: Scarf Fast+ Toucannon
377: Scarf Fast+ Muk-Alola
376: Bulky Electrode
375: Fast+ Dedenne
373: Scarf Fast Nidoqueen
373: Scarf Fast Crustle
372: Fast+ Luxray
372: Fast+ Farfetch'd
368: Bulky Accelgor
366: Fast+ Lycanroc
365: Fast Unfezant
364: Fast+ Froslass
361: Fast Flygon
361: Fast+ Mightyena
361: Fast+ Arbok
361: Scarf Fast+ Musharna
361: Scarf Fast+ Incineroar
361: Scarf Fast+ Cresselia
359: Fast Zoroarl
359: Fast Zangoose
359: Fast Lunatone
359: Fast Glaceon
359: Fast Cryogonal
359: Fast Armaldo
358: Scarf Fast Poliwrath
358: Scarf Fast Lapras
358: Scarf Fast Hariyama
356: Bulky Glalie
353: Fast Salazzle
353: Fast+ Golisopod
351: Fast Talonflame
351: Scarf Fast+ Goodra
350: Fast+ Scrafty
350: Fast+ Leafeon
350: Fast+ Jynx
349: Fast Primeape
349: Fast Heatmor
348: Fast+ Rampardos
348: Fast+ Clawitzer
344: Scarf Fast+ Torterra
343: Scarf Fast Wigglytuff
343: Scarf Fast Toucannon
343: Scarf Fast Muk-Alola
342: Fast+ Gallade
341: Fast Dedenne
339: Fast Luxray
339: Fast Farfetch'd
339: Fast+ Toxicroak
339: Fast+ Porygon-Z
339: Fast+ Nidoking
339: Fast+ Lycanroc-Midnight
339: Fast+ Lilligant
339: Fast+ Kangaskhan
339: Fast+ Girafarig
339: Fast+ Bastiodon
339: Fast+ Arcanine
337: Fast+ Vanilluxe
333: Fast Lycanroc
331: Fast Froslass
329: Fast Mightyena
329: Fast Arbok
328: Fast+ Victini
328: Fast+ Parasect
328: Fast+ Mew
328: Fast+ Mandibuzz
328: Fast+ Chimecho
328: Scarf Fast+ Snorlax
328: Scarf Fast+ Meganium
328: Scarf Fast+ Cofagrigus
328: Scarf Fast+ Bellossom
328: Scarf Fast Musharna
328: Scarf Fast Incineroar
328: Scarf Fast Cresselia
322: Fast+ Emboar
321: Fast Golisopod
319: Fast Scrafty
319: Fast Leafeon
319: Fast Jynx
319: Scarf Fast Goodra
317: Fast Rampardos
317: Fast Clawitzer
317: Fast+ Seviper
317: Fast+ Beartic
316: Bulky Ariados
313: Scarf Fast Torterra
313: Fast+ Magmortar
311: Fast Gallade
311: Scarf Fast+ Dunsparce
309: Fast Toxicroak
309: Fast Porygon-Z
309: Fast Nidoking
309: Fast Lycanroc-Midnight
309: Fast Lilligant
309: Fast Kangaskhan
309: Fast Girafarig
309: Fast Bastiodon
309: Fast Arcanine
307: Fast Vanilluxe
305: Scarf Fast+ Guzzlord
302: Bulky Unfezant
299: Fast Victini
299: Fast Parasect
299: Fast Mew
299: Fast Mandibuzz
299: Fast Chimecho
298: Bulky Flygon
298: Scarf Fast Snorlax
298: Scarf Fast Meganium
298: Scarf Fast Cofagrigus
298: Scarf Fast Bellossom
298: Fast+ Rotom-Fan
298: Fast+ Garbodor
296: Bulky Zoroarl
296: Bulky Zangoose
296: Bulky Lunatone
296: Bulky Glaceon
296: Bulky Cryogonal
296: Bulky Armaldo
295: Scarf Fast+ Probopass
293: Fast Emboar
293: Fast+ Volcanion
290: Bulky Salazzle
289: Fast Seviper
289: Fast Beartic
288: Bulky Talonflame
288: Scarf Fast+ Araquanid
286: Bulky Primeape
286: Bulky Heatmor
285: Fast Magmortar
284: Fast+ Victreebel
284: Fast+ Shiftry
284: Fast+ Kricketune
283: Scarf Fast Dunsparce
280: Fast+ Druddigon
278: Bulky Dedenne
277: Scarf Fast Guzzlord
276: Bulky Luxray
276: Bulky Farfetch'd
273: Fast+ Nidoqueen
273: Fast+ Crustle
271: Fast Rotom-Fan
271: Fast Garbodor
270: Bulky Lycanroc
268: Bulky Froslass
268: Scarf Fast Probopass
267: Fast Volcanion
266: Bulky Mightyena
266: Bulky Arbok
262: Scarf Fast+ Sandslash-Alola
262: Scarf Fast+ Magcargo
262: Fast+ Poliwrath
262: Fast+ Lapras
262: Fast+ Hariyama
262: Scarf Fast Araquanid
259: Fast Victreebel
259: Fast Shiftry
259: Fast Kricketune
258: Bulky Golisopod
256: Bulky Scrafty
256: Bulky Leafeon
256: Bulky Jynx
255: Fast Druddigon
254: Bulky Rampardos
254: Bulky Clawitzer
251: Fast+ Wigglytuff
251: Fast+ Toucannon
251: Fast+ Muk-Alola
249: Fast Nidoqueen
249: Fast Crustle
248: Bulky Gallade
246: Bulky Toxicroak
246: Bulky Porygon-Z
246: Bulky Nidoking
246: Bulky Lycanroc-Midnight
246: Bulky Lilligant
246: Bulky Kangaskhan
246: Bulky Girafarig
246: Bulky Bastiodon
246: Bulky Arcanine
244: Bulky Vanilluxe
240: Fast+ Musharna
240: Fast+ Incineroar
240: Fast+ Cresselia
239: Fast Poliwrath
239: Fast Lapras
239: Fast Hariyama
238: Scarf Fast Sandslash-Alola
238: Scarf Fast Magcargo
236: Bulky Victini
236: Bulky Parasect
236: Bulky Mew
236: Bulky Mandibuzz
236: Bulky Chimecho
234: Fast+ Goodra
230: Bulky Emboar
229: Fast Wigglytuff
229: Fast Toucannon
229: Fast Muk-Alola
229: Fast+ Torterra
229: Scarf Fast+ Wishiwashi
229: Scarf Fast+ Bronzong
226: Bulky Seviper
226: Bulky Beartic
222: Bulky Magmortar
219: Fast Musharna
219: Fast Incineroar
219: Fast Cresselia
218: Fast+ Snorlax
218: Fast+ Meganium
218: Fast+ Cofagrigus
218: Fast+ Bellossom
213: Fast Goodra
209: Fast Torterra
208: Bulky Rotom-Fan
208: Bulky Garbodor
208: Scarf Fast Wishiwashi
208: Scarf Fast Bronzong
207: Fast+ Dunsparce
204: Bulky Volcanion
203: Fast+ Guzzlord
199: Fast Snorlax
199: Fast Meganium
199: Fast Cofagrigus
199: Fast Bellossom
196: Bulky Victreebel
196: Bulky Shiftry
196: Bulky Kricketune
196: Fast+ Probopass
192: Bulky Druddigon
192: Fast+ Araquanid
189: Fast Dunsparce
186: Bulky Nidoqueen
186: Bulky Crustle
185: Fast Guzzlord
179: Fast Probopass
176: Bulky Poliwrath
176: Bulky Lapras
176: Bulky Hariyama
175: Fast Araquanid
174: Fast+ Sandslash-Alola
174: Fast+ Magcargo
166: Bulky Wigglytuff
166: Bulky Toucannon
166: Bulky Muk-Alola
159: Fast Sandslash-Alola
159: Fast Magcargo
156: Bulky Musharna
156: Bulky Incineroar
156: Bulky Cresselia
152: Fast+ Wishiwashi
152: Fast+ Bronzong
150: Bulky Goodra
146: Bulky Torterra
139: Fast Wishiwashi
139: Fast Bronzong
136: Bulky Snorlax
136: Bulky Meganium
136: Bulky Cofagrigus
136: Bulky Bellossom
126: Bulky Dunsparce
122: Bulky Guzzlord
116: Bulky Probopass
112: Bulky Araquanid
96: Bulky Sandslash-Alola
96: Bulky Magcargo
76: Bulky Wishiwashi
76: Bulky Bronzong
Consider that there aren't much to talk with (although fortunately, the Type Optimization Open sign-ups is only in two weeks), I might suggest a Role Compendium and which Optimized Pokémon will fits in the roles. We already know that Hariyama can be a wallbreaker (even stallbreaker), a stall, a Specially Defensive Tank, and even a reverse sweeper thanks to G-Luke pre-Open review about this Pokémon.
The other things, such as Viability Ranking, would be too early since we do not really know if anything would be really broken or underwhelming, but I did already highlighted Optimized Pokémon we should keep our eyes open on them if any of them could be too powerful for OU. For those who haven't caught up, Cookie Butter had already warned us about Araquanid, and G-Luke had already did a well-detailed explanation on how Hariyama's bulk makes it very, very dangerous in both offensive and defensive sets.
Consider that there aren't much to talk with (although fortunately, the Type Optimization Open sign-ups is only in two weeks), I might suggest a Role Compendium and which Optimized Pokémon will fits in the roles. We already know that Hariyama can be a wallbreaker (even stallbreaker), a stall, a Specially Defensive Tank, and even a reverse sweeper thanks to G-Luke pre-Open review about this Pokémon.
The other things, such as Viability Ranking, would be too early since we do not really know if anything would be really broken or underwhelming, but I did already highlighted Optimized Pokémon we should keep our eyes open on them if any of them could be too powerful for OU. For those who haven't caught up, Cookie Butter had already warned us about Araquanid, and G-Luke had already did a well-detailed explanation on how Hariyama's bulk makes it very, very dangerous in both offensive and defensive sets.
I can work on something tomorrow. No promises, since I've got quite a few finals coming up & I'm innately lazy and forgetful, but I've already had some ideas on working on sets for every mon. I probably could throw in Role Compendium as something to work on, then post it as a WIP for what I have done.
Yeah echoing sentiments that Fur Coat Arcanine can be a bit too bulky with Fire Lash. Hariyama as well is hard to take down, and I have been using Cofagrigus to at least disable Unaware but still.
I think the next step for now is to pick the ones that seem the most problematic (Araquanid, Hariyama and Arcanine judging from the posts) and have a slate where we change/remove moves and redistribute stats.
Kind of want to do this before the Tourney, although do people want to do this after the Tourney to truly get the best idea of what's broken or not?
Also, we talked about the more overwhelming entries- are there any Pokemon you feel are a bit too underpowered right now that needs a little buff?
Yeah echoing sentiments that Fur Coat Arcanine can be a bit too bulky with Fire Lash. Hariyama as well is hard to take down, and I have been using Cofagrigus to at least disable Unaware but still.
I think the next step for now is to pick the ones that seem the most problematic (Araquanid, Hariyama and Arcanine judging from the posts) and have a slate where we change/remove moves and redistribute stats.
Kind of want to do this before the Tourney, although do people want to do this after the Tourney to truly get the best idea of what's broken or not?
Also, we talked about the more overwhelming entries- are there any Pokemon you feel are a bit too underpowered right now that needs a little buff?
The reason why I suggested after the tourney is that we never truly know what is really the most threatening. While the Big Three (Araquanid, Hariyama, Fur Coat Arcanine) are pretty obvious threats, there might be a few that might manage to get past our radar and be proven as threatening as any of those three, if not even more. After all, maybe Lilligant might be a more threatening Quiver Dance sweeper than we thought!
For those who I think needs a buff, I feel like Lycanroc-Midday wouldn't perform all that well compared to other Optimized physical fast sweepers and is 4x weak to Fighting, making Mach Punch an easy solution. Its fast yes, but there are faster Optimized Rock-type Pokémon like Lunatone.
Having been going through for the past half hour over the winners (up to druddigon) in the goals of creating a role compendium or whatever it's spelled, I've got two I've noticed might be a wee bit weak.
YoshiBlaze's Dedenne doesn't look threatening at all, with a mix of an only decent Physical STAB, poor options for electric STAB (The best being recoil Wild Charge or ThunderPunch), a set of stats leaving it struggling to find the role it wants, and abilities that make pre gen 5 Nidoking happy it has Poison Point. If it had Zing Zap or Wood Hammer, a more offensively laid stat spread/ability set, or just stuck to its guns (and its typing's guns) and going either full support or full special attacker, it'd have a niche, but I just don't see any reason to use it over our other cleaners/sweepers like Emboar, Rampardos, or Araquanid besides the interesting typing.
In a similar vein, Origin's Garbodor leaves little for me personally to work with. 100 / 130 / 107 / 40 / 107 / 86 stat spread is nice, but nothing revolutionary (100/100/100 is nearly underwhelming in this pet mod), with a below average speed tier and alright Attack. Meteor Mash and Earthquake do patch coverage, and Recover is fantastic for anything expecting to come in more than once (and Levitate + Defog is a duo of abilities I like), but he doesn't find himself doing anything that another mon can't do better. Want a Defiant user? Farfetch'd and Kanga do it better. Maybe if he had Skill Link I'd find him hilarious as a Rock Blast/Bullet Seed-spamming machine, but iunno.
Hmm, maybe Wishiwashi? Wishiwashi wasn't that great before, now it has a BST reduction, making it less bulky and weaker physically (granted, the difference is small but it's there). Giving it Belly Drum seems... odd, as it loses 50% HP and makes it more likely to revert to Solo form. Z-Belly Drum could work to recover back to 50% HP, but that's assuming the opponent won't deal the final 25% to turn you into Solo form. Aqua Jet and Gyro Ball are pretty nice, no complaints there, but I don't think it'll make it much more viable. It's weaker than standard Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
Having been going through for the past half hour over the winners (up to druddigon) in the goals of creating a role compendium or whatever it's spelled, I've got two I've noticed might be a wee bit weak.
YoshiBlaze's Dedenne doesn't look threatening at all, with a mix of an only decent Physical STAB, poor options for electric STAB (The best being recoil Wild Charge or ThunderPunch), a set of stats leaving it struggling to find the role it wants, and abilities that make pre gen 5 Nidoking happy it has Poison Point. If it had Zing Zap or Wood Hammer, a more offensively laid stat spread/ability set, or just stuck to its guns (and its typing's guns) and going either full support or full special attacker, it'd have a niche, but I just don't see any reason to use it over our other cleaners/sweepers like Emboar, Rampardos, or Araquanid besides the interesting typing.
In a similar vein, Origin's Garbodor leaves little for me personally to work with. 100 / 130 / 107 / 40 / 107 / 86 stat spread is nice, but nothing revolutionary (100/100/100 is nearly underwhelming in this pet mod), with a below average speed tier and alright Attack. Meteor Mash and Earthquake do patch coverage, and Recover is fantastic for anything expecting to come in more than once (and Levitate + Defog is a duo of abilities I like), but he doesn't find himself doing anything that another mon can't do better. Want a Defiant user? Farfetch'd and Kanga do it better. Maybe if he had Skill Link I'd find him hilarious as a Rock Blast/Bullet Seed-spamming machine, but iunno.
I kind of wanted Garbodor to be a bulky attacker, so maybe it could sacrifice some of its low speed and attack for greater bulk? Does a stat spread of 120 / 120 / 110 / 40 / 110 / 70 seem better? I don't want to take away anymore from its special attack stat if I don't need to. As for its abilities, Levitate immunizes it from its main weakness, Oblivious was there to prevent it from being Taunted but could be switched out for something better, and Defiant was there to discourage Defogging away the hazards it sets.
I dunno what would you guys and girls think but Optimized Wigglytuff might be rather lackluster; while bulky, it lacked viable recovery when not running Technician + Draining Kiss, and its STABs, Dazzling Gleam and Air Slash, are rather weak. Aerilate can solve the weak Flying STAB with Hyper Voice though. Meanwhile it got no way to set up outside of Competitive, and you may not always run this Ability unless if the increasing presence of Intimidate and Defog users start to bother you.
Slightly off-topic but another important I would like to note is that since almost Optimized Pokémon will have a viable niche, it may certainly shake up the OU metagame more than never does to viable newcomers with even more varied type combination. New speedy Ice-type threats can cause Landorus-T to use Choice Scarf more than ever, Toxapex will be annoyed by more viable Electric-type threats and wallbreakers, and Tapu Lele, while able to hold on its own against its own checks, will not appreciate having to deal with Specially Defensive or fast Steel-type threats such as Snorlax, Alolan Muk and Zangoose.
Hmm, maybe Wishiwashi? Wishiwashi wasn't that great before, now it has a BST reduction, making it less bulky and weaker physically (granted, the difference is small but it's there). Giving it Belly Drum seems... odd, as it loses 50% HP and makes it more likely to revert to Solo form. Z-Belly Drum could work to recover back to 50% HP, but that's assuming the opponent won't deal the final 25% to turn you into Solo form. Aqua Jet and Gyro Ball are pretty nice, no complaints there, but I don't think it'll make it much more viable. It's weaker than standard Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
Leafeon- SD Sweeper / Sun Sweeper
Dedenne- SD Sweeper / Support
Bellossom- Sun Setter / QD Tank
Electrode- CM Sweeper
Luxray- Hail Sweeper / Guts
Arbok- Coil Tank / Coil Sweeper
Arcanine- Honestly fucking anything besides a pivot. He's good enough to wallbreak, stallbreak, tank, setup, etc.
Magmortar- Wallbreaker
Volcanion- Nuke
Zoroark- Illusion / Special Sweeper
Incineroar- Tank
Accelgor- Suicide Lead / Mixed Sweeper
Kangaskhan- Defog Bait / Bulk Up Tank
Rampardos- Physical Nuke / Suicide Lead
Lycanroc-Midnight- Wallbreaker / Sweeper
Cofagrigus- Mixed Bulk Tank
Girafarig- Z-Happy Hour
Chimecho- Supporter
Bronzong- Mixed Tank / Special Tank / Steel Trapper
Armaldo- CB Nuke / Sweeper
Garbodor- Defog Bait / All-Rounder
Cresselia- Fat
Goodra- Tank / Supporter
Nidoqueen- Supporter / Special Wallbreaker
Nidoking- Physical, Special, or Mixed Sweeper
Muk-Alola- Mixed Tank
Musharna- Supporter / Tank
Snorlax- Wincon / Specially Bulky Tank
Heatmor- Skill Link Sweeper
Zangoose- SD Sweeper
Druddigon- Dragon Dance Tank / Sheer Force Wallbreaker
Seviper- Strong Jaw + DD Sweeper
Lapras- Hail Sweeper / Tank
Wishiwashi- Belly Drum Sweeper (?)
Araquanid- Support / Tank / SD/Bulk Tank
Clawitzer- Nuke
Scrafty- Dragon Dance Sweeper
Torterra- Tank / Shell Smash Sweeper
Lunatone- Support / Special Sweeper
Mew- Tail Glow Sweeper / Support (Can run most roles with its kit)
Lilligant- QD Sweeper
Ariados- Support
Any notes, extra info, etc is greatly appreciated and much needed, since I'm only one guy and I don't know everything a moveset/stat spread/ability set can give. Anyone else smarter on their subs or having done more testing than I, let me know either here or in DMs.
An idea on Wishiwashi, though, talking about things that look bad - Instead of changing the School form, which already is decent enough for what it is, we change the solo form instead.
Currently, the stats look like this:
Solo- 45/20/20/25/25/40
Schooling- 45/140/130/140/135/30
How about this idea, which makes Belly Drum more effective: Schooling makes Wishiwashi tankier but also slower, since they have to travel together, so when low on HP you're easy to revenge kill, but also much, MUCH scarier offensively.
An idea being like this:
Solo form's stats turn into 65/115/40/95/40/150, making him actually incredibly threatening when he's at low HP, gotten easier via Belly Drum. It also means he doesn't NEED to run Aqua Jet if you can get into range faster.
Schooling form turns into 65/140/130/140/135/30, since the HP of the base form changes.
ofc I'd rather go ahead and have people rework this Wishiwashi and come up with their own ideas on a different time, but throwing it out here.
Leafeon- SD Sweeper / Sun Sweeper
Dedenne- SD Sweeper / Support
Bellossom- Sun Setter / QD Tank
Electrode- CM Sweeper
Luxray- Hail Sweeper / Guts
Arbok- Coil Tank / Coil Sweeper
Arcanine- Honestly fucking anything besides a pivot. He's good enough to wallbreak, stallbreak, tank, setup, etc.
Magmortar- Wallbreaker
Volcanion- Nuke
Zoroark- Illusion / Special Sweeper
Incineroar- Tank
Accelgor- Suicide Lead / Mixed Sweeper
Kangaskhan- Defog Bait / Bulk Up Tank
Rampardos- Physical Nuke / Suicide Lead
Lycanroc-Midnight- Wallbreaker / Sweeper
Cofagrigus- Mixed Bulk Tank
Girafarig- Z-Happy Hour
Chimecho- Supporter
Bronzong- Mixed Tank / Special Tank / Steel Trapper
Armaldo- CB Nuke / Sweeper
Garbodor- Defog Bait / All-Rounder
Cresselia- Fat
Goodra- Tank / Supporter
Nidoqueen- Supporter / Special Wallbreaker
Nidoking- Physical, Special, or Mixed Sweeper
Muk-Alola- Mixed Tank
Musharna- Supporter / Tank
Snorlax- Wincon / Specially Bulky Tank
Heatmor- Skill Link Sweeper
Gojiritar- SD Sweeper
Druddigon- Dragon Dance Tank / Sheer Force Wallbreaker
Seviper- Strong Jaw + DD Sweeper
Lapras- Hail Sweeper / Tank
Wishiwashi- Belly Drum Sweeper (?)
Araquanid- Support / Tank / SD/Bulk Tank
Clawitzer- Nuke
Scrafty- Dragon Dance Sweeper
Torterra- Tank / Shell Smash Sweeper
Lunatone- Support / Special Sweeper
Mew- Tail Glow Sweeper / Support (Can run most roles with its kit)
Lilligant- QD Sweeper
Ariados- Support
Parasect- Support / SD Sweeper
Golisopod- Revenge Killer / Bait & Punish
Magcargo- Tank
Shiftry- Rain Sweeper / Nuke
Victreebel- Tank / Role Compressor
Meganium- Contrary Steamroller / Tank
Jynx- Hail Setter / NP Sweeper
Porygon-Z- Click B To Blow (Special Nuke)
Guzzlord- Tank
Victini- Physical Nuke / Mixed Nuke / Defog Bait
Talonflame- Click Flying Move To Win
Salazzle- Special Sweeper
Any notes, extra info, etc is greatly appreciated and much needed, since I'm only one guy and I don't know everything a moveset/stat spread/ability set can give. Anyone else smarter on their subs or having done more testing than I, let me know either here or in DMs.
An idea on Wishiwashi, though, talking about things that look bad - Instead of changing the School form, which already is decent enough for what it is, we change the solo form instead.
Currently, the stats look like this:
Solo- 45/20/20/25/25/40
Schooling- 45/140/130/140/135/30
How about this idea, which makes Belly Drum more effective: Schooling makes Wishiwashi tankier but also slower, since they have to travel together, so when low on HP you're easy to revenge kill, but also much, MUCH scarier offensively.
An idea being like this:
Solo form's stats turn into 65/115/40/95/40/150, making him actually incredibly threatening when he's at low HP, gotten easier via Belly Drum. It also means he doesn't NEED to run Aqua Jet if you can get into range faster.
Schooling form turns into 65/140/130/140/135/30, since the HP of the base form changes.
ofc I'd rather go ahead and have people rework this Wishiwashi and come up with their own ideas on a different time, but throwing it out here.
About Guzzlord
252+ SpA Choice Specs (Vanilla) Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD (Optimized) Guzzlord: 584-690 (119.9 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs (Vanilla) Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD (Vanilla) Guzzlord: 708-834 (120.6 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lowering HP to increase defenses changes nothing. Giving it minmaxed offenses would work though. If it's made physical, consider giving it strong physical Ghost STAB better than Shadow Claw. Special would be better because of Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball, just saying.
About Wishiwashi
Buffing the stats of Solo form sounds good. I feel like it should be something like 80/40/40/45/45/140 (BST 390), and keep 80/130/100/140/100/20 (BST 570) School form.
About Guzzlord
252+ SpA Choice Specs (Vanilla) Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD (Optimized) Guzzlord: 584-690 (119.9 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs (Vanilla) Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD (Vanilla) Guzzlord: 708-834 (120.6 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lowering HP to increase defenses changes nothing. Giving it minmaxed offenses would work though. If it's made physical, consider giving it strong physical Ghost STAB better than Shadow Claw. Special would be better because of Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball, just saying.
About Wishiwashi
Buffing the stats of Solo form sounds good. I feel like it should be something like 80/40/40/45/45/140 (BST 390), and keep 80/130/100/140/100/20 (BST 570) School form.
Added the trio for the electric slate (was waiting for them to be in the winners post) and changed Gojiratar to Zangoose. Iunno how I messed that one up, probably a lack of soda for the day.
What are your guys thoughts on possibly doing a rebalancing slate? We could do reworking the overpowered mons we've come up with and vote on a set of them (I've heard echoes of Hariyama/Arcanine/Araquanid so we could do that?), we could do underpowered mons, or we could do a blend of them all and have two sessions of voting, one for overpowered/underpowered, etc. Hearing all of your input helps us make decisions better tuned to what you all want.
Added the trio for the electric slate (was waiting for them to be in the winners post) and changed Gojiratar to Zangoose. Iunno how I messed that one up, probably a lack of soda for the day.
What are your guys thoughts on possibly doing a rebalancing slate? We could do reworking the overpowered mons we've come up with and vote on a set of them (I've heard echoes of Hariyama/Arcanine/Araquanid so we could do that?), we could do underpowered mons, or we could do a blend of them all and have two sessions of voting, one for overpowered/underpowered, etc. Hearing all of your input helps us make decisions better tuned to what you all want.
I would say a blend of both; vote for three Pokémon you find the most overpowered atm and three another you had found underpowered. The top three overpowered Pokémon will get a slight nerf to become easier to deal with in one Rebalance Slate, and then the top three voted Pokémon as underpowered will be next in the next Rebalance Slate.
EDIT: Making a spreadsheet with the Optimized Pokémon list, basic Role Compendium (that might be expanded later), and details that comes later such as Viability Ranking, Rebalance Sheet (to make track of changed Optimized Pokémon during the Rebalance Slates), and how many winning submissions a single user have. I will release it when I added all Optimized Pokémon and completed the Role Compendium.
Its not completed since only ThePrincessGardevoir listed the most of those he can tell, and I am only a beginner in Smogon terms, but if anyone can help with which Optimized Pokémon can fit in which roles, PM me.
OH! And Ludicrousity your Incineroar have 580 BST instead of the maximum of 570, so I may want you to decrease its stats a little to reach back to the limit.
While we are at it, would anyone mind if we organize a "playtest" Tourney to investigate further and see further into anything that needs to be balanced without waiting for the Grand Slam Open? I'm may not be in but I will definitely help out to analyze most of the matches as much as possible.
Its only an option but if we do, we will be able to determine who's broken and who's underwhelming or not. Otherwise we should playtest further and try to use as many Optimized Pokémon as possible.
We already know the main culprits (Hariyama/Arcanine/Araquanid), but just remember; there might be potential threats that managed to get past our radar.
While we are at it, would anyone mind if we organize a "playtest" Tourney to investigate further and see further into anything that needs to be balanced without waiting for the Grand Slam Open? I'm may not be in but I will definitely help out to analyze most of the matches as much as possible.
Its only an option but if we do, we will be able to determine who's broken and who's underwhelming or not. Otherwise we should playtest further and try to use as many Optimized Pokémon as possible.
We already know the main culprits (Hariyama/Arcanine/Araquanid), but just remember; there might be potential threats that managed to get past our radar.
