When I voted for space, I mean space as in outer space, not space as in spacetime. Quite frankly, if it turns to the latter, I will be immensely disappointed.
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Typing: The Mod
- Thread starter Gravity Monkey
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- Status
I'm curious as to why people aren't designing types to reign in dangerous mons or help weaker ones. Lets look at fairy and perhaps the biggest victim: Hydreigon. Hmmm? What's this, it looks like BW Hydra has no true counters... surely a single type that resists its STABs isn't going to... drop it to UU viability. Hmmmm... HMMMMM!?
Meanwhile a Pokemon like Clefable, who only gained 10 SpAtk and a new typing, is still sitting high in OU.
So when we think agenda, we have to think of the effects new types can have on the meta. In fact, when can we start theorycrafting out the meta? I know its too early to test, but with 3 new types, its time (heh) to take heart and start looking at the winners in this mod's space and see which types and individual mons come out ahead.
EDIT: By the way, another type that's starting to suffer is fighting. It still has 5 SE hits including the gatekeeper status as anti-normal, but now it has 7 resist types AND an immunity to its attacks. Bug and grass at least hit all things to some degree, barring niche abilities.
So when someone says I have an agenda, yes! I have x + (x^2-x)/2 agendas. With our current type roster being at 21, I have 231 type agendas.
Meanwhile a Pokemon like Clefable, who only gained 10 SpAtk and a new typing, is still sitting high in OU.
So when we think agenda, we have to think of the effects new types can have on the meta. In fact, when can we start theorycrafting out the meta? I know its too early to test, but with 3 new types, its time (heh) to take heart and start looking at the winners in this mod's space and see which types and individual mons come out ahead.
When I think space, I think 3 things: the 'ether', gravity or lack thereof, and celestial bodies that aren't lunar such as planets, comets and meteors. Spacetime is probably just that: Space/Time dual type. Granted, having a Space/Time type version of flying press would be pretty cool provided Time works out well.
EDIT: By the way, another type that's starting to suffer is fighting. It still has 5 SE hits including the gatekeeper status as anti-normal, but now it has 7 resist types AND an immunity to its attacks. Bug and grass at least hit all things to some degree, barring niche abilities.
So when someone says I have an agenda, yes! I have x + (x^2-x)/2 agendas. With our current type roster being at 21, I have 231 type agendas.
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Wait. It dropped ONE WHOLE TIER?
This is true, but we should also have a lot of focus on stuff that makes sense. I would say there is logic between almost every vanilla type matchup in the game with the exception of a few Fairy resistances.
The smugness wasn't needed. It doesn't sound like much, but let's try a similar analogy: Marshadow has a hard to resist STAB combo. New Heart types resisting both of its STABs places heavy 4mss on it. Suddenly it's retested in OU and because Heart types are worth slapping on teams, Marshadow is forced to switch moves. Deemed no longer too good for OU, it may see use in Ubers still, but, what was that quote you said.
Granted, there is astronomical difference between Ubers and OU, but this could be significant to shift usage.
A better example might be Scrafty who liked almost irresistible STABs. It dropped from UU to NU over the course of new gens. There are likely other factors but I won't doubt that fairy resisting both of its STABs and giving it a 4x weakness was a major contributor. It dropped in Gen 6 despite Knock Off getting a significant power boost when removing an item mind you, so there's something afoot, and I think it's twinkling in our face.
Marshadow is not the only one who got banned into Uber even when both STABs will get resisted by one Type. Blaziken got banned from OU simply because of Speed Boost and Pheromosa also got banned from OU does to insane offensive stats which is further abusable with Beast Boost and can U-Turn to kill any hope of Revenge Kill (in addition of Tapu Lele's Psychic Surge bringing one of the best Terrains), as well as a versatile learnset.
Instead of hoping to bring down some Uber Pokémon back to OU, we should just as well focus on buffing Pokémon lagging behind OU and lower tiers by not just giving them the new types, but also giving them much needed stat boost (reasonable that is), especially if most of their Base Stats would be way too low to make great potential with the interesting, unique typing.
I think that types should be helpful, but not at the cost of nonsensical type matchups. When I made my type matchups (and hopefully, the others did too), I tried to balance "What needs help" and "what makes sense for this type to be like.", Which is why i gave bug, poison, and eventually grass super-effective hits on it, because diseases and poisons are a common way to beat aliens in fiction, and it is usually plants and bugs that carry diseases. I gave Ice a SE hit on it because it is more common in space than even on our world. I made Fire weak to it because of there being no oxygen in space. I didn't make flying weak to it because, while yes, flying is less useful in space, it doesn't actively harm them (except due to death, but if i counted all the things that died in space half of the types would be weak to it), now yes, a blackhole does make them useless, but again, if I counted that, everything would be weak to it because nothing can get out of a blackhole, not even light. Sorry if I started to ramble on there, i just wanted to say something about the "balancing types vs making a sensible type matchup" debate that seems to be starting up.
I think that we should be allowed to vote on it being space or cosmic type. I mean, everyone is talking about it as outer space, the only thing that i think people are using spacetime for is, well, the space and time matchup, which makes sense.
After much consideration, I have come up with a more reasoned version based on science and shit.
Space
Attacking
2x: Steel, Flying, Ground, Heart
.5x: Rock, Grass, Bug
0x: Ice (could become resist instead)
Gravity will crush steel types in on their own weight. Sure iron can make your spacecraft fly, but in hyper-grav/extreme magnetism you're not going to want to be wearing plate armor. Likewise, gravity neuters the flying type, so a bird flying free will plummet and likely break. Meanwhile, on the flipside, the ground does not hold well under massive pressure and heart needs more oxygen. Fire meanwhile under great gravity can burn in other ways. Unless we add a magma type to represent burning magma, there's no way a lava slug should be weak to space as lava doesn't need oxygen, just massive heat from gravity.
Rock resist is due to the rocky nature of asteroids. Sure metals are in asteroids too, but not as prevalent as rocks. Bugs tend to thrive as light as they are and even can breath in space, likewise when space doesn't exist, so too doesn't temperature. Thus a universe without space (and by penalty time, but time can melt ice or something) is technically at absolute 0 Kelvin. Thus ice keeps space away. Grass is the one true filler here.
Defending
2x: Water, Electric, Dragon, Fairy
.5x: Steel, Normal, Ground, Poison, Flying, Fire
Water is heavy: unlike most things in the universe, its solid form (Ice), it's actually less dense than its liquid state. Earth is pretty dense and has a lot of water, although an Iron Core doesn't hurt. Meanwhile, Electric light zips through the universe at the same speed regardless of space or not. Fairies and their affinity with space can obliterate them, and Dragons? Well, dragons in this universe seem almost unworldly. Almost beyond time and space, so they say screw the rules and destroy both.
Steel again will either become too light or weighted down before they land, same with tackles being floated away and the earthly type is too grounded. Flying again could be splatted against the earth. The fire may not suffocate from space types, but the actual fire moves seem to mostly be fiery and not heat based, however, because there are a few like Heat Wave and Lava Plume not being combustion based, full on immunity wouldn't be a good idea. Poisons tend not to be as strong in a vacuum. The body doesn't function right, neither do the virus cells when they get zapped with radiation, a very space age technology thing. It's filler enough that it could be nixed.
Space
Attacking
2x: Steel, Flying, Ground, Heart
.5x: Rock, Grass, Bug
0x: Ice (could become resist instead)
Gravity will crush steel types in on their own weight. Sure iron can make your spacecraft fly, but in hyper-grav/extreme magnetism you're not going to want to be wearing plate armor. Likewise, gravity neuters the flying type, so a bird flying free will plummet and likely break. Meanwhile, on the flipside, the ground does not hold well under massive pressure and heart needs more oxygen. Fire meanwhile under great gravity can burn in other ways. Unless we add a magma type to represent burning magma, there's no way a lava slug should be weak to space as lava doesn't need oxygen, just massive heat from gravity.
Rock resist is due to the rocky nature of asteroids. Sure metals are in asteroids too, but not as prevalent as rocks. Bugs tend to thrive as light as they are and even can breath in space, likewise when space doesn't exist, so too doesn't temperature. Thus a universe without space (and by penalty time, but time can melt ice or something) is technically at absolute 0 Kelvin. Thus ice keeps space away. Grass is the one true filler here.
Defending
2x: Water, Electric, Dragon, Fairy
.5x: Steel, Normal, Ground, Poison, Flying, Fire
Water is heavy: unlike most things in the universe, its solid form (Ice), it's actually less dense than its liquid state. Earth is pretty dense and has a lot of water, although an Iron Core doesn't hurt. Meanwhile, Electric light zips through the universe at the same speed regardless of space or not. Fairies and their affinity with space can obliterate them, and Dragons? Well, dragons in this universe seem almost unworldly. Almost beyond time and space, so they say screw the rules and destroy both.
Steel again will either become too light or weighted down before they land, same with tackles being floated away and the earthly type is too grounded. Flying again could be splatted against the earth. The fire may not suffocate from space types, but the actual fire moves seem to mostly be fiery and not heat based, however, because there are a few like Heat Wave and Lava Plume not being combustion based, full on immunity wouldn't be a good idea. Poisons tend not to be as strong in a vacuum. The body doesn't function right, neither do the virus cells when they get zapped with radiation, a very space age technology thing. It's filler enough that it could be nixed.
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This is actually pretty interesting, I like it. I'll probably put a revised version of mine own later.
Why can't it be both? I mean, yes, dark type translates to evil, but there are still some moves linked to actual darkness, like night daze or dark pulse.
I'm not sure what "science" sources you are using to determine this, but there are some incorrect statements here:
- "ground does not hold well under massive pressure" - ground needs gravity to hold it together, though it does turn to rock under massive pressure (and heat)
- "Fire meanwhile under great gravity can burn in other ways" - fire requires heat, fuel, and an oxidizing agent (usually oxygen) to burn, in outer space there is not enough of any of these for fire to burn and gravity doesn't really have anything to do with it other than keeping the things together
- "lava doesn't need oxygen, just massive heat from gravity" - lava/magma isn't actually fire, it's molten rock, and it's hot because of the decay of radioactive isotopes present in the magma (like uranium), gravity itself doesn't produce heat
- "Bugs tend to thrive as light as they are and even can breath in space" - bugs don't thrive in outer space and certainly can't breathe without oxygen; tardigrades are special in that they enter a state of suspended animation (essentially freezing time for themselves) to survive, but can only do so in space for up to 10 days
- "when space doesn't exist, so too doesn't temperature" - temperature is the way we measure the amount of heat in something, it doesn't mean anything to say it doesn't exist; space is very cold since there is much there to retain heat
- "Thus a universe without space (and by penalty time, but time can melt ice or something) is technically at absolute 0 Kelvin. Thus ice keeps space away" - I have no idea what you're trying to say here
- "time can melt ice or something" - time itself doesn't cause ice to melt, absorbing energy from its surroundings is what causes ice to melt
- "Water is heavy: unlike most things in the universe, its solid form (Ice), it's actually less dense than its liquid state" - you know what's heavier than water? most rocks and metals; this and the second part don't explain why water is super effective against Space
- "Electric light zips through the universe at the same speed regardless of space or not" - you're confusing electricity with electromagnetic waves/photons; while they are related, they are not equivalent, as electricity requires a medium to travel through while electromagnetic waves do not, so electricity cannot travel through outer space while the light a lightning bolt produces can
- "Fairies and their affinity with space can obliterate them" - I'm not sure what this means
- I'm not sure what most of the last paragraph is supposed to mean in terms of why Space should resist them
Considering this is Pokemon and not a science course, I think it's best not to delve to deeply into the specifics of scientific understanding for this pet mod or any pet mod. It becomes too confusing even for me.
Revised Matchups
Offensive:
2x: Fighting, Psychic, Fairy, Space, Fire
Fighting can't protect you from a plasma weapon, Psychics wouldn't be able to understand aliens, Those from space wouldn't believe in fairies and fairies need belief to exist, Aliens would be around the same strength, and Fire can't exist in space.
1x: Normal, Dark, Water, Flying, Grass, Rock, Ground, Heart
.5x: Bug, Electric, Time, Ice
Bugs can survive in Space for a while, Plasma is what Electricity is made of, Time is considered the 4th dimenion of space, and Ice isn't really bothered by space.
0x: None
Defensive:
2x: Bug, Electric, Poison, Space, Grass
Bugs and plants carries diseases, which aliens wouldn't be used to, Electric, Space, and Ice, See above, and Poisons wouldn't likely be the same on an alien planet.
1x: Dark, Flying, Ground, Heart, Dragon, Fairy, Psychic, Normal, Fighting
.5x: Time, Fire, Fairy, Heart, Ice
Time, Fire, and Fairy, See above, Ice can't make something extremely cold even colder, and your heart wouldn't be able to survive in space.
0x: none
Offensive:
2x: Fighting, Psychic, Fairy, Space, Fire
Fighting can't protect you from a plasma weapon, Psychics wouldn't be able to understand aliens, Those from space wouldn't believe in fairies and fairies need belief to exist, Aliens would be around the same strength, and Fire can't exist in space.
1x: Normal, Dark, Water, Flying, Grass, Rock, Ground, Heart
.5x: Bug, Electric, Time, Ice
Bugs can survive in Space for a while, Plasma is what Electricity is made of, Time is considered the 4th dimenion of space, and Ice isn't really bothered by space.
0x: None
Defensive:
2x: Bug, Electric, Poison, Space, Grass
Bugs and plants carries diseases, which aliens wouldn't be used to, Electric, Space, and Ice, See above, and Poisons wouldn't likely be the same on an alien planet.
1x: Dark, Flying, Ground, Heart, Dragon, Fairy, Psychic, Normal, Fighting
.5x: Time, Fire, Fairy, Heart, Ice
Time, Fire, and Fairy, See above, Ice can't make something extremely cold even colder, and your heart wouldn't be able to survive in space.
0x: none
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I don't get why or how Space would do anything other than resist Ice. The whole Ice resisting Space thing seems like a weird flip of what how it would be, seeing as there is nothing about Ice, winter, or coldness that gives it an actual edge or advantage over outer space, while outer space itself is already cold, so logically attacking it with Ice based moves would make zero sense. It makes even less sense based on such logic for Ice to be super effective to Space.
I get it, y'all want Ice to be better, but Ice already picked up two resistances, was retroactively granted a resistance to both Flying and Ground (making Ice the only typing besides Steel of all types to resist the combo) + another type to hit super effectively, arguably already giving it better defensive leverage than half of the existing type chart and making it one of the best typings around. And speaking on that, since y'all are so hellbent on typing equality, why are they no new Ice resists? Its the best offensive typing, so you would think all of the subs would include one?
I get it, y'all want Ice to be better, but Ice already picked up two resistances, was retroactively granted a resistance to both Flying and Ground (making Ice the only typing besides Steel of all types to resist the combo) + another type to hit super effectively, arguably already giving it better defensive leverage than half of the existing type chart and making it one of the best typings around. And speaking on that, since y'all are so hellbent on typing equality, why are they no new Ice resists? Its the best offensive typing, so you would think all of the subs would include one?
Well, Ice is one of the things that can exist in space without much problems, unlike.... well, most things really. Comets are made out of ice, and they're commonly associated with space. Honestly I messed up with my new typing and meant for space to resist ice with ice resisting space, since neither really hurt the other, so thanks for pointing that out.
Matchups
Offensive
x2: Fire, Flying, Heart, Steel
x0.5: Bug, Dark, Rock, Time
x0: Space
Fires can't burn without oxygen, birds get confused without up/down, hearts die, and steel can get crushed by high gravity.
Bugs are adaptable (tardigrades can live in space for a while), darkness produces black holes which suck in space, rocks don't care about where they "live", and spacetime is one thing so they resist each other. Also space can't hurt other space, hence the immunity.
Defensive:
x2: Electric, Dark, Psychic
x0.5: Fairy, Fire, Flying, Heart, Time
x0: Space
Electricity travels easily through space, and psychics and darks can control it.
Similar idea as SE for resists, fairies are unable to do much to space.
btw Space/Fighting seems good offensively
Offensive
x2: Fire, Flying, Heart, Steel
x0.5: Bug, Dark, Rock, Time
x0: Space
Fires can't burn without oxygen, birds get confused without up/down, hearts die, and steel can get crushed by high gravity.
Bugs are adaptable (tardigrades can live in space for a while), darkness produces black holes which suck in space, rocks don't care about where they "live", and spacetime is one thing so they resist each other. Also space can't hurt other space, hence the immunity.
Defensive:
x2: Electric, Dark, Psychic
x0.5: Fairy, Fire, Flying, Heart, Time
x0: Space
Electricity travels easily through space, and psychics and darks can control it.
Similar idea as SE for resists, fairies are unable to do much to space.
btw Space/Fighting seems good offensively
i like how nobody noticed or said anything about the top secret thing that i edited into my submission post
dead inside
You mean the Rotoms? they seem interesting, though i think a digital clock would be better than an analog clock since rotom's possessing technology.
I can get behind that comprimise. Its just that it seemed really illogical for Ice to resist Space and not vice verse. But both of them resisting each other is fine enough after giving some thought.
That looks pretty cool!
They already have distinct niches from their respective original forms. In fact, both are much better than theirs original form (Latias-mega's CM stored power set is insane due to her bulk and Latios-mega is such a great wallbreaker). This may help theirs original form to be good again ig tho. Anyways...
(not base formes, they need a niche lol)
-Photon Geyser
-Moonlight
-Hyperspace Hole
-Gravity
-Cosmic Power
-Aurora Beam
-Teleports behind you
-Meteor Mash
-Spacial Rend
-Prismatic Laser
-Vacuum Wave
-Moonlight
-Hyperspace Hole
-Gravity
-Cosmic Power
-Aurora Beam
-Teleport
-Meteor Mash
-Spacial Rend
-Prismatic Laser
-Vacuum Wave
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The Pokemon/move list I was editing is almost exactly the same as Gojiratar's so I'll skip posting them.
Move: Solar Wind
Typing: Space
Category: Special
Base Power: 90
Accuracy: --
Power Point: 10 (16)
Effect: Never misses
Z-Effect: 160 BP
Explanation/Niche: Bulkier Space type Pokemon need reliable damage in order to play safely. Pokemon that do not rely on their damage output such as Clefable* will benefit from this.
Move: Cosmic Force
Typing: Space
Category: Special
Base Power: 110
Accuracy: 85
Power Point: 10 (16)
Effect: 30% chance to raise user's speed by one stage.
Z-Effect: 185 BP
Explanation/Niche: For the strong special attackers that appreciate the extra power (and chance for game changing speed boost) such as Porygon-Z*.
Move: Spatial Awareness
Typing: Space
Category: Status
Base Power: --
Accuracy: --
Power Point: 25 (40)
Effect: User is unaffected by status moves such as Leech Seed and Thunder Wave for five turns.
Z-Effect: Cures status ailments of user.
Explanation/Niche: Gives an opportunity for the user to set up without being hindered by status moves but still is vulnerable to secondary effects from moves like Discharge.
Ability: Zero Gravity
Effect: Status moves will never miss (unless target is semi-invulnerable).
Explanation/Niche: Celesteela never missing Leech Seed? Cresselia never missing Toxic? Clefable never missing Thunder Wave?
Ability: Absolute Zero
Effect: Speed is not checked for the first turn this Pokemon is on the field (ie first turn is always a speed tie). Does not affect the priority of moves.
Explanation/Niche: Makes powerful Pokemon such as Palkia more threatening when switching in. Can also act as a shaky check to Choice Scarf users and set up sweepers who are about to cause a lot of damage to a team.
Items: Cosmic Plate (Arceus plate), Space Memory (Silvally memory), Spaceium-Z (type Z-Crystal), Juna Berry (type-resist berry)
Generic Z-Move: Supermassive Event Horizon
Move: Solar Wind
Typing: Space
Category: Special
Base Power: 90
Accuracy: --
Power Point: 10 (16)
Effect: Never misses
Z-Effect: 160 BP
Explanation/Niche: Bulkier Space type Pokemon need reliable damage in order to play safely. Pokemon that do not rely on their damage output such as Clefable* will benefit from this.
Move: Cosmic Force
Typing: Space
Category: Special
Base Power: 110
Accuracy: 85
Power Point: 10 (16)
Effect: 30% chance to raise user's speed by one stage.
Z-Effect: 185 BP
Explanation/Niche: For the strong special attackers that appreciate the extra power (and chance for game changing speed boost) such as Porygon-Z*.
Move: Spatial Awareness
Typing: Space
Category: Status
Base Power: --
Accuracy: --
Power Point: 25 (40)
Effect: User is unaffected by status moves such as Leech Seed and Thunder Wave for five turns.
Z-Effect: Cures status ailments of user.
Explanation/Niche: Gives an opportunity for the user to set up without being hindered by status moves but still is vulnerable to secondary effects from moves like Discharge.
Ability: Zero Gravity
Effect: Status moves will never miss (unless target is semi-invulnerable).
Explanation/Niche: Celesteela never missing Leech Seed? Cresselia never missing Toxic? Clefable never missing Thunder Wave?
Ability: Absolute Zero
Effect: Speed is not checked for the first turn this Pokemon is on the field (ie first turn is always a speed tie). Does not affect the priority of moves.
Explanation/Niche: Makes powerful Pokemon such as Palkia more threatening when switching in. Can also act as a shaky check to Choice Scarf users and set up sweepers who are about to cause a lot of damage to a team.
Items: Cosmic Plate (Arceus plate), Space Memory (Silvally memory), Spaceium-Z (type Z-Crystal), Juna Berry (type-resist berry)
Generic Z-Move: Supermassive Event Horizon
Something to consider doing: run a calc vs. an all-type mon to see how each type lands against this 20+ type mon. Currently, Ice hits 2x, while nothing else even hits for neutral damage.
This can be pretty scary when you consider that Freeze Dry can hit for 4x.
As such, I'm on board with space and space having a pure resist relationship.
This was actually a danger in the last Type crafting mod. Ice was SE vs 3 of the types. Freeze Dry had 8 SE hits!
This can be pretty scary when you consider that Freeze Dry can hit for 4x.
As such, I'm on board with space and space having a pure resist relationship.
This was actually a danger in the last Type crafting mod. Ice was SE vs 3 of the types. Freeze Dry had 8 SE hits!
I'll just make want Light-type to resist Ice. From now on, be sure to have your type to either resist Ice or have neutral damage to it, everybody. I got a feeling that Freeze Dry will have increased viability in term of utility.
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