Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v2 - Pokemon Home Edition

[Fc]

Thread Guidelines

- Discussion should only be focused around SV Ubers and its metagame. No national dex stuff.
- Discussion should only be focused around what is currently (or recently announced will be) available! Theorymon on the upcoming DLC are a no go in here until it arrives.
- Follow the rules, and keep things peaceful.
- Do not post one liners, try to make each post meaningful.
- Questions go here.
- Other generations discussion goes here.

Notable Returning Pokemon:


Notable New Pokemon:



(s/o Guard, list taken from AG metagame discussion thread)
Notable Moveset Differences

- Mewtwo gained Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Power Gem
- Kyogre lost Block, Roar, Scald, Toxic
- Groudon gained Body Press, Spikes, Will-O-Wisp
lost Dragon Tail, Heat Crash, Roar, Rock Polish, Toxic
- Rayquaza gained Stealth Rock, U-turn
lost V-create
- Dialga gained Trick, Focus Blast
- Palkia gained Trick
lost Focus Punch, Roar
- Giratina lost Poltergeist, Roar, Toxic
- Arceus gained Aura Sphere, Body Press, Bulk Up, Dragon Dance, Dragon Tail, Flare Blitz, Foul Play, Gunk Shot, Healing Wish, Power Gem, Stored Power, Taunt
lost Defog, Frustration / Return, Shadow Force, Refresh, Roar, Whirlpool
- Landorus gained Crunch, Taunt, Nasty Plot
lost Defog, Explosion, Gravity, Knock Off, Rock Polish, Toxic
- Magearna gained Psychic, Psyshock, Spikes
lost Heal Bell
- Zacian gained Trailblaze, Poison Jab
lost Assurance
- Eternatus gained Fire Blast, Fire Spin
lost Meteor Beam, Mystical Fire
- Urshifu gained Swords Dance
- Regieleki lost Rising Voltage
- Calyrex lost Aromatherapy

 

[Taka]

- Calyrex lost Aromatherapy

 

[Death Phenomeno]

Is the Legend Plate still dummied out? Is tehre any reason to believe it will be made available in the future?


On another topic, Eternatus lost Eternabeam.

 

[bdt2002]

I tend to be more of a Past Gens OU kind of guy myself, but I’ve always had a fascination with potentially overcentralizing metagame threats. Always being able to learn more about these tiers and why some of my takes are trash helps me as a more casual player and is often times more fun than actually battling. kind of like that one time recently when i said ho-oh would be good for gsc ou, seriously why did i think that was smart again?

Back during The Crown Tundra, I was already feeling a bit skeptical about this Pokémon upon release, but in the context of Gen 8 Ubers I think I would have to agree with how its suspect test turned out (i.e., Calyrex-Shadow was far more manageable in a metagame with no Zacian or Zacian-Crowned). Nowadays, while I think Calyrex-Shadow has the potential to match other AG household names like Mega Rayquaza and the aforementioned Zacian Formes in power and viability, I think it’s far healthier for that tier than either of those examples were. In a metagame dominated by Eternatus/Necrozma-DM/Yveltal cores, Gen 8 Ubers Calyrex-Shadow feels almost like the tier’s great equalizer. Really strong and viable, but it keeps the metagame intact and gives it its identity, much like the Primals of the 3DS era.

Calyrex-Shadow is being placed in a very favorable environment to perform well in the Pokémon HOME stages of Scarlet & Violet Ubers. Terastalizing exists, Yveltal is still AFK for now, and that base 150 Speed should be self-explanatory by now. Certainly there’s no way it doesn’t get banned this time, right? Right!? Well… I wouldn’t be so sure. What this metagame lacks in Yveltal, it makes up for in the rising popularity of Ting-Lu, and it requires Terastalizing to try and beat threats like Scarf or Booster Energy Flutter Mane as well as faster Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu sets.

 

[Magcargo]

Don't play this meta, but I wonder if Calyrax Shadow will be busted now. Even without Tera, Calyrax benefits massively from Yveltal being gone & tera let's it completely bypass the few remaining checks like Tyranitar. Maybe Tera Normal/ Dark mons can rise up as checks, but it's hard to say.

 

[bdt2002]

Don't play this meta, but I wonder if Calyrax Shadow will be busted now. Even without Tera, Calyrax benefits massively from Yveltal being gone & tera let's it completely bypass the few remaining checks like Tyranitar. Maybe Tera Normal/ Dark mons can rise up as checks, but it's hard to say.

I personally don’t think it will be. It will warrant a suspect test more than likely, but I feel like Ting-Lu is basically built to beat to beat this thing. Coverage options outside of Tera Blast remain limited, too. Calyrex-Shadow’s two 4x weaknesses really are its Achille’s heel, and while Tera Normal can be a great option to improve Calyrex-Shadow’s matchups, I’m not sure that’s worth not using your Terastalizing on something else.

 

[Wooper Person]

Is there a potential ban incoming for both dogs like in SS? Both were nerfed, but they still posses speed tiers above 135, thus being hard to revenge kill barring Scarfed mons (even then, their bulk allows them to not be revenge killed by the likes of Speed boosted Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle).
Despite all the new Pokémon dropping, I don't see any concrete answers to them aside from just using revenge killing them with the few faster threats like Scarf Miraidon/Koraidon, Calyrex-Shadow, etc.
Some defensive Arceus formes might be able to somewhat answer them, but I still think it'll be worth suspecting both after the meta settles a bit (and when leaves lol).

 

[Nyx]

- Landorus gained Crunch, Taunt, Nasty Plot lost Defog, Explosion, Gravity, Knock Off, Rock Polish, Toxic

Not sure how impactful it’ll be in Ubers specifically but Landorus also lost Superpower

 

[Taka]

I personally don’t think it will be. It will warrant a suspect test more than likely, but I feel like Ting-Lu is basically built to beat to beat this thing. Coverage options outside of Tera Blast remain limited, too. Calyrex-Shadow’s two 4x weaknesses really are its Achille’s heel, and while Tera Normal can be a great option to improve Calyrex-Shadow’s matchups, I’m not sure that’s worth not using your Terastalizing on something else.

i disagree. Ting-Lu still has the issue of not being able to check Caly longterm thanks to its reliance on Leftovers. Its also kind of put under a lot of pressure by Miraidon already, so checking both is incredibly difficult. Draining Kiss also heals back a huge percentage thanks to Ting-Lu's raw HP.

Plus, I think it is always worth at least considering Calyrex-S's tera type in a game, as it is definitely in consideration for top 3 in the meta right now, maybe even no1. Also, Tera Normal is probably not the best Tera type for Caly-S, since Tera Fairy and Fight make it much more potent offensively. While its still early on in the metagame, I think Caly may encourage much more offense heavy builds thanks to its incredible speed, though this might be a symptom of a day 1 metagame.

Just to get the ball rolling, what do you guys think are some solid cores with the new released Pokemon?

I'm thinking and will form a pretty potent offensive core. On top of being in contention for the best two pokemon in the tier, they share a check in Ting-Lu, and Miraidon/Calyrex-S can break through opposing special walls for the other to sweep late game.

 

[Lasen]

This metagame is absolutely ridiculous; I've barely scratched the 1550s because it's just a matter of "whose lures worked out first"; I've seen non-Normal Arceus formes tech into Tera Normal for the Extreme Speed boost and immunity to being revenge killed by Calyrex-S, I've seen DD Zacian-C sweep teams because they didn't pack a Skeledirge and Ting-Lu feels useless when a last mon Calyrex-S can just use you as set-up fodder. I personally am a big fan of the Double Dance Calyrex-S sets - it both catches lazy builders off-guard who are trying to force their way through with Electric Terrain + Arceus, and you can get some OK-ish recovery back through Tera Fairy Draining Kiss.

Sticky Web is also in a pretty OK position. On one hand, every Webs setter sucks and loses to other dedicated leads- Glimmora, Grimmsnarl, Azelf, Froslass, Stealth Rock Rayquaza all can take it down or stop Webs from being set up (I guess you can Tera Ghost/Steel to stop the first two...). On the other, you no longer care about anything revenge killing you and are free to run Taunt on Calyrex-S to stop phazing attempts.


DD Arceus also feels like it deserves to be explored by the community. Forcing opponents to revenge kill you with opriority is sometimes a tall ask when you can Terastallize to dance around both Extreme Speed from E-Killer and Sucker Punch from Chien-Pao (who uses the dog anymore? only me).


anyways, dumb HO I built in -2 seconds.

 

[Inspirited]

This thing weirdly really good at giving rain options to deal with brokens while being a broken itself later on. Rainy Wave Crash really hurts Arceus so that can't get another SD on you and so that your own Arceus or a Jet Punch might finish it off. This being ghost is more helpful than I initially thought and has been super useful so far.

 

[Edgar]

 

[Ransei]

Is the Legend Plate still dummied out? Is tehre any reason to believe it will be made available in the future?


On another topic, Eternatus lost Eternabeam.

My thoughts are that,
Legend Plate is still ineffective. There is no reason to believe it would be made available in the future. It was probably meant to be exclusive to Legends Arceus and would have interfered with the concept of Terastallization anyway.

 

[Manaphy]

While it's still very early, I think it's clear Calyrex-S and Tera are hilariously busted right now and need to go. The meta seems absolutely focused on HO with games being decided by Tera 50/50s, lead MUs, and whoever happens to have the better match-up. Balance can only hope to try to keep up with things like Scarf Tera Water Ogre and Ditto, which is never the sign of a healthy metagame.

By the way, here's a free HO :)

 

[Taka]

Just wanna shed some light on some other guys that are not bad, but are kind of overshadowed right now by Caly, Ekiller, and Zacian.


Despite losing tools such as Roar and Dragon Tail, Groudon gaining Will-O-Wisp is a nice little tool that helps it take on Koraidon and Zacian decently well on more offensive teams. The lack of a recovery move still hurts it long term, but Wisp + access to Spikes makes it a decent offensive tool on some teams especially considering how dire removal is right now.


Fairy: the lack of a real fairy until now means that this mon has a real niche of being able to pivot into the multitude of dragon stab flying around. CM is also a pretty decent wincon that doesn't let Calyrex-S setup on it for free, while also taking on Miraidon decently well. I've been liking Tera Ground with max HP + little bit of spatk investment to guarantee the OHKO on Zacian-C after Tera/CM.

Dark: dark does standard dark things by sitting on Calyrex-S before it uses Tera, while also leading well into Grimmsnarl screens teams. solid mon, and can throw off strong Foul Plays to dissuade setup in front of it. We've been in need of a good defensive dark outside of Kingambit (speaking of, kingambit is still not bad rn), and this one is here to stay. Being weak to Zacian's Play Rough and Koraidon's Close Combat, on top of Calyrex's general tera types is annoying, but it’s another thing you can potentially circumvent with Tera. It still has issues with hazards that make it worse in this metagame though.


Toxic Spikes are only absorbed by three relevant Pokemon at the moment: Eternatus, Glimmora, and Clodsire. Glimmora most likely will not be around throughout a match to absorb Toxic Spikes, and Clodsire is currently having issues dealing with the strongest Pokemon in the metagame, so Eternatus is basically the only absorber at the moment. Eternatus also sets up Toxic Spikes, takes on standard DD Miraidon decently well, and most importantly is not super passive. All three of these traits, plus its ability to check Kyogre, will definitely be important in the current metagame.


Though there aren't as many relevant ground-types in this metagame, Giratina-O can act as an offensive defogger in a meta with very little removal options. Access to status like Wisp + TWave, paired with a strong Hex + Draco Meteor, as well as access to Shadow Sneak to revenge kill Calyrex-S, makes Gira-O a solid option on some teams. It can also utilize tera types such as Poison + Steel to further improve its matchup into its main weakness against Zacian / Miraidon. Also the spikes immunity is super key for its longevity.


Thanks to Kyogre, rain is much better than before and less contingent on avoiding Wild Charge Koraidon and Sub Encore Iron Bundle, and we have a houndstone that is not awful. Ghost typing is good against Ekiller, Last Respects is as stupid as ever, and Basculegion has a spammable secondary STAB in Wave Crash thanks to its decent attack stat, Rain, and Tera. Its still kind of mediocre however and can have issues into the multitude of Dragons around / still being outsped by anything just speed boosting moves, but unlike Houndstone, this Last Respects user is actually viable.

But yea, Calyrex-S is absolutely stupid and although Nasty Plot sets are ridiculous, you can't forget about Scarf being the bane of all offense and Specs plowing through anything remotely fat.

 

[Stallion]

This metagame is depressing as fuck.

 

[MrE]

The horse is silly good.


Not much fun playing this tier rn imo

 

[LouisIX]

"hey what the hell is this 180 atk and 115 speed mon with a full accurate 120 stabs holy shxt we gonna quick ban it omfg"

Ten years later

"165 atk and 150 speed with 120 full accuracy stabs? Oh come on take it easy we will wait to see"

 

[bdt2002]

Well, we made it through Day 1 of one of the more… “anticipated” Ubers metagames we’ve had in quite some time. I’m very curious to see what the Ubers council or whatever they’re called thinks of the Day 1 metagame, as it’s likely still too early to make any major tiering decisions. I anticipate the biggest problem with this tier won’t be any one specific Pokémon, but rather scrambling to try and find out what the actual problems are. Is Calyrex-Shadow to blame? What do people think of Miraidon now? Is Terastalizing the issue? How are Zacian and Zacian-Crowned performing after their nerfs from last generation?

I’m very interested in everyone’s thoughts right now, and for the time being I think we should give this tier some more time to establish itself and see what counterplay develops to potentially problematic threats, if any. Mega Rayquaza and pre-nerf Zacian-Crowned were both banned because they were the unquestionable best Pokémon in the game to a degree where players of equal skill level simply cannot compete against teams built around such Pokémon without using such teams or strategies themselves. Those both felt like the Meta Knights of not just their respective metagames, but their respective eras of existence. I don’t think something at that level has emerged in this metagame quite yet.

 

[MrE]

Well, we made it through Day 1 of one of the more… “anticipated” Ubers metagames we’ve had in quite some time. I’m very curious to see what the Ubers council or whatever they’re called thinks of the Day 1 metagame, as it’s likely still too early to make any major tiering decisions. I anticipate the biggest problem with this tier won’t be any one specific Pokémon, but rather scrambling to try and find out what the actual problems are. Is Calyrex-Shadow to blame? What do people think of Miraidon now? Is Terastalizing the issue? How are Zacian and Zacian-Crowned performing after their nerfs from last generation?

I’m very interested in everyone’s thoughts right now, and for the time being I think we should give this tier some more time to establish itself and see what counterplay develops to potentially problematic threats, if any. Mega Rayquaza and pre-nerf Zacian-Crowned were both banned because they were the unquestionable best Pokémon in the game to a degree where players of equal skill level simply cannot compete against teams built around such Pokémon without using such teams or strategies themselves. Those both felt like the Meta Knights of not just their respective metagames, but their respective eras of existence. I don’t think something at that level has emerged in this metagame quite yet.

Tera is what makes everything feel super broken and is imo what's making it hard for all the tiers to figure out what is and isn't actually broken. Having said that even without tera I still think the horse would be a silly mon.

 

[Fc]

Since it’s day 1 I’m being lenient but a reminder after a few posts in this thread to not post one-liners, if you have comments about the metagame please expand the post to something with substance. I appreciate everyone participating in discussion regardless, though.

That said, the council hears you and we’ve been discussing potential ways to approach the metagame internally as well as with shiloh / other knowledgeable tl’s, we should have some more information for the process going forward tonight.

 

[corvere]

pex bulky offense is still great as tspikes are still good
arceus-ground is being slept on, dragon dance sets are one of the best pokemon in the format as it absolutely demolishes offense (And bulky teams too if taunt or flare blitz as coverage)

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Recover / Flare Blitz / Taunt

koraidon is better than ever, arceus eternatus giratina zacian are all mons that korai can win against with its sd flame charge set.. low kick is the preferred fight stab option now as everything is fat
life orb 3 attacks agility / recover eternatus is a very good offense mon as absorbing tspikes is invaluable, as is checking rain at least once

 

[OriginalBoat]

the lack of a real fairy

 

[Royal1604]

I don't know how to express all my feelings about this home metagame so i'll try to be quick: this is by far one of the dumbest metagame i've ever played. It obviously can't stay as it is now, and we'll need to have a serious reflexion about what we want for the future of the tier.


This is a secret for nobody that I am a Calyrex-S hater since it has been released, and I always wanted it to be banned in SS. I think we've reached a point with SV and tera, a point where Caly-S doesn't belong to the tier anymore. It basically forces a Tera normal in every comp, and you're almost forced to Tera everytime to avoid being OHKOed. Double Dance/Scarf sets are the bests atm for me. The most disgusting Pokemon i've played against, and by far.


Not as strong as I expected, but forcing Koraidon in every team, limitating teambuilding options, otherwise you just get sweeped by the scarf version, especially when it's paired with...


This is strong, not OP cause it needs rain to be efficient, but when rain is up this is a really big threat, especially in late game. I don't knowhow strong it really is because Koraidon is everywhere, but clearly a Pokemon to think about when you're building.


The nerfs were good, even if the SD set is a huge wallbreaker if you're playing against a fat team. I want to see how it'll become in future metagames, but not as broken as it was in SS.


Both extreme killer and DD tera Normal other forms are good sweepers, pressuring a lot of Pokemon in the current metagame. We'll need to see how it'll go when all will be stabilized, but we should see a lot of those (and maybe types we weren't used to).

I won't talk about the pre-home legendaries, since they are all pretty strong in the metagame (hi Koraidon)

The metagame is one of the most offensive we've had in the recent years, you can't really play fat teams cause you get outscaled by all the threats of the tier. I don't dislike it, but playing most of games on Caly-S ties makes me cry. We need to find solutions to balance it, and i'm sure we'll find them, all together.

That's all for now folks, let's see at the 1st suspect (soon).

 

[bdt2002]

Regieleki @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Transistor
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Electro Ball
- Explosion
- Volt Switch
- Extreme Speed

This is a set I made as a complete joke on a team full of Ground-Type lures, because hey, what’s the best way to beat an extremely fast Ubers metagame than by going even faster? Having something to outspeed even the fastest Calyrex-Shadow doesn’t hurt, either. The part I wasn’t expecting was for this to actually work. Turns out that 822 Speed Electro Ball boosted by Tera Electric, Transistor, and very possibly Electric Terrain does truly horrifying damage to anything that isn’t a Ground-Type or a Miraidon. From what I can tell, this set appreciates Light Screen being eliminated from the game, meaning Grimmsnarl checks like Zacian-Crowned and Brick Break users might make for good teammates.

I’ve already made it to 1250 elo with this set on a team with a scout lead Palafin, Zacian-Crowned, and this Arceus set inspired by a sample set from National Dex Ubers:



Arceus @ Leftovers
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Taunt

1250 elo is still lower than I want to be at right now, but I really wanna try and develop this “core” to feel less like a gimmick strat and more like something a player might actually find in a high-level tournament setting.