Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - Crown Tundra [Zacian-Hero Banned]

[LBN]

You personally attack me and you have no interest in discussing my proposal charitably. I don't care if it's less or more persuasive for you. The only reason that I have platformed your post is because I want to point out how fundamentally dishonest your arguments are.

This is exactly what I meant by bad sequence. You could have attacked the obvious Gothitelle double, doubled your sweeper in, or make literally any other play that take advantage of Gothitelle but you didn't. You deserve to lose there. If you had attacked, the Gothitelle would be useless and can't trap NDM anymore. It was a high risk and high reward play for Zacian Goth user. Sorry that you have to balance risk and reward to make plays to tilt chance of winning in your favor. :(


Gothitelle can't trap Eternatus with Dragon tail nor offensive Eternatus. Even then, Eternatus can actually pp stall Gothitelle's Taunts and get out of situation alive. Yes, Gothitelle can beat Eternatus situationally. Gothitelle should never ever trap Blissey. It can Stoss and Teleport or parahax and Teleport or Toxic to force Rest then Teleport. It also can use Shed shell but I think that Teleport is a Great Move on Blissey that Should Be Used. Please educate yourself before making unasserted claim that Gothitelle and Scarf Kyogre core works because it doesn't.


Is it possible for someone to use SpD Gothitelle to specifically trap Marsh check Phys def Xerneas. Sure. Keep in mind, I've literally never seen this strategy in any of high level games. Maybe it's used, not used. I don't know. Phys def xern is an exceedingly rare set that relies on match up of Zygarde and Marshadow to be useful. It's an inherently volatile strategy and if you brought Gothitelle to neutralize this extremely rare match up. Then, as I see it, it's a competitive teambuilding and evolving metagame occurring. Also, it's not free... Marsh Gothitelle core is nowhere close to being good in this gen as USUM. Zacian RK's Marsh and Gothitelle with extreme success. Stop being dramatic and keep your arguments grounded in the reality rather than imaginary theorymon.


You can control how anti-Gothitelle you want to be in builder. It's two way street. You should be punished if you elect to make yourself Gothitelle weak. Your argument is functionally equivalent to complaining that you lost to a Scarf Kyogre because you didn't have any Kyogre check on your team. In fact, building against Gothitelle is far less restricting than countering powerful pokemon such as Kyogre because all it takes to Goth proof yourself is maximum of one slot on your Gothitelle weak pokemon. You also can make doubles or simply attacking Gothitelle double to neutralize it.

In fact, this clearly demonstrate that Gothitelle is competitive. You make interesting choices in builder and battle to beat it. If you find yourself losing to Gothitelle often, then I suggest that you spend your time getting better at this game rather than litigating your weaknesses away.


You still can boost with my proposal. Stored power is an attacking move and you'd be free to use any other three moves such as Calm mind, Cosmic power, Power-Up-Punch, Nasty plot, and so on. You obviously did not read my post and attacked my idea without any shred of thought and charity.


Incoherent mess here. Well yeah, it's two way street. You're agreeing to what I'm saying. Scope lens Night slash NDM is an obvious exaggeration with no basis in the reality. There are many viable sets that NDM can use to guarantee defeating Gothitelle. It's not my problem that you elect to use RNG prone NDM set to fish hax against Gothitelle as your strategy. I use far better NDM sets and I win more games than you do because of it. It's that simple.


Fair enough about Gothorita, my proposal can be expanded to include Gothorita trivially. I literally suggested banning Gothitelle with no attacking move and you say that I'm anti-ban? You're just lying and attacking my perspective without any shred of charity.

Just for emphasis: I am all for crafting a proposal that eliminates mind-numbing Gothitelle/Gothorita PP stall sets as that I believe this is where most of resentment against Gothitelle/Gothorita comes from. In Pre-DLC meta, Trick Gothitelle was the most popular set and most of high level players thought that it was a fun and interesting metagame to play. So, the problem is clearly not Gothitelle/Gothorita as a whole.

I don't even wanna bother with this so i'm gonna try to keep it short simply because this is just gonna flood the chat with a petty argument between 2 people.

First off you get mad at personal attacks and then pull up like 3 paragraphs later with and i quote "I use far better NDM sets and I win more games than you do because of it. It's that simple." and ALSO "Sorry that you have to balance risk and reward to make plays to tilt chance of winning in your favor. :( " so i don't see how these can't be considered a "personal attack" if saying a take is worse than a previous take is considered one aswell. 2nd off, the Eternatus point.

You can definitely trap an eternatus with gothitelle huh. First off, everytime kyogre decided to ice beam etern, it literally must recover or it will lose to scarf kyogre on the next encounter. That's giving you free gothitelle entry. Also, the pp stalling point. Assuming it isn't dragon tail because if it is you just aren't trapping it. Dynamax cannon/draco meteor have 8 PP, while flamethrower has 24 pp, mystical fire has 16. so you have a maximum of 32 PP after taunts. taunt lasts 3 turns, with 16 effective PP due to pressure. 16 x 3 = 48. You can stall out the attacks. But let's go beyond that real quick, let's say your the cosmic power set and not confide. Reasonably, say you just got up to say.. +3 and your currently resting. A crit dynamax cannon will do 59-70%. Assuming you get the literal max roll on the crit, you still only have a 26.2% chance to kill it with 2 more dynamax cannons after leftovers, and that's still considering you just got a crit max roll on a perfect turn with uninvested dynamax cannon. And mystical fire/flamethrower crits will only do 30-35% for mystical fire and 36-42% for flame. Calcs will be below.

Calcs

Dynamax Cannon
0 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. +3 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 55-66 (16 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle on a critical hit: 205-243 (59.7 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. +3 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 55-66 (16 - 19.2%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Goth is at 30)
0 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 93-109 (27.1 - 31.7%) -- 35.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
The fire coverage
0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle on a critical hit: 124-147 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Eternatus Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle on a critical hit: 104-123 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. +3 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 34-40 (9.9 - 11.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Eternatus Mystical Fire vs. +3 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 28-34 (8.1 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Eternatus Mystical Fire vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 46-55 (13.4 - 16%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 56-66 (16.3 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

So it's entirely clear that it is possible to trap eternatus. Now your other points on it, "what if it's offensive eternatus it won't get trapped" yea it won't get trapped but it's not checking scarf kyogre so who cares. It's also dying to 2 full health spouts after rocks so thats not a risk either. But even if your kyogre has eaten 1 rocks hit eternatus still has a 91% chance to drop to 2 spouts after rocks. In which case they likely have another mon to fill the gap, ferrothorn is likely, and that thing is going to get trapped. Even if it's curse it will lose 1v1, so you've still opened up kyogre if it's ferrothorn. If it's blissey well i hate to break it to you teleport isn't that common despite being good because of it's 4MSS. It needs soft boiled, and a status either twave or tox, but wants teleport toss aromatherapy/bell, rocks, wish, and also confide. So it's common to simply not have teleport, which isn't even shown in blissey's standard set on the damage calc, for both ubers and AG. So it's a fair gamble to assume no teleport because if it is you don't really lose much for trying because breaking news toss is a 5hko w leftovers. which means it can be rest stalled. if you burn pp with status it can wake up, taunt and force more toss use. So you beat that 1v1 too more often that not. Obviously goth cannot trap every single kyogre check as Palkia sees to that, but it's still a viable strategy anyway since Palkia has no recovery. Forgot to mention but say the defensive Etern attacks on the switch in? Well you still can make it not recover so it still makes it likely to get a kill next time Kyogre wants to play. Calcs below.

Calcs

Blissey
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 248 HP Gothitelle: 100-100 (29.1 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 248 HP Gothitelle: 100-100 (29.1 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Offensive Eternatus vs Scarf Kyogre
252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus: 228-270 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus in Rain: 213-252 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus in Rain: 213-252 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus: 228-270 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (131 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus in Rain: 186-220 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Goth vs Ferrothorn
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 109-130 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 92.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 120-142 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (71 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 66-78 (19.2 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 55-66 (16 - 19.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 60-72 (17.4 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
-2 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (71 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 33-40 (9.6 - 11.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

So that's one point done. Next the xerneas point. Yea that core is worse. But who said Marshadow has to be the main abuser? I could put a secondary abuser alongside such as the previously mentioned Kyogre, which is a core that puts high pressure on itemless eternatus anyway and marsh covers the other 3 checks solidly, so it's a solid core. If you think marshadow will serve more purpose if xerneas if removed as opposed to if etern/ferro/bliss is removed for kyogre you can definitely do that. Also niche?? It functions as a zygarde marshadow check and a zekrom soft check while being able to provide cleric support like that's good what. Buzzwole can do this too but doesn't provide cleric utility and a dragon immunity so it's still not overshadowed. Like dude this set is in an outdated sample team so it definitely had and still holds merit. Of course it ain't free half of those were written with semi comedy and semi quickfire examples.

Next point, the 5v6 builder one/Night slash meme set. Before i even begin, what do you think is harder, making sure all your walls have anti Gothitelle techs, which may worsen your matchup against other threats, or slapping gothitelle on your team and pressuring them via existence. The pressure is far more on the walls than it is with Gothitelle, because goth doesn't need to try to trap what it naturally does, it's on the walls to come up with how they plan to avoid goth or flip the script, but this dampens what they can do. Ferrothorn may be able to run shed shell but now it's not running utility umbrella/leftovers and Kyogre has gotten harder. Necrozma can run shed shell but now it suffers from a bigger fear of banded/life orb Zacian. as it can't run boots or leftovers or even helmet to make it so Zacian is easier to handle for both it and the team. Etern can run dragon tail and while that isnt as bad as running the shell, missing out on either toxic and its spikes variant blows, and way less would run dtail etern if goth wasn't here besides the stray resttalk cm ogre, but you have mystical fire that does that anyway, and if its rest cm scald beam, you can take the rest turns to your advantage by switching to a physical threat like groudon, zacian, zekrom and marshadow and begin the pain, or even ferro/Caly leech and go right back to etern to continue the process, Caly-G can also trick. By the way ofc the night slash necrozma was a joke set but i've actually seen a ubers room guy gas it as the magical goth tech of the century so it's not like nobody's thought of it before despite it sucking. By the way if you think walls don't have to go out their way for goth, the fact someone said night slash scope lens necrozma should be all you need to hear, terrible set or not. Calcs below again. By the way for necrozma, if it would want to speed creep war goths, it'd do much worse against zacian.

Calcs again..

Kyogre vs shed shell/Umbrella ferrothorn
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 89-105 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Umbrella)
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 133-157 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (The shell)
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 199-234 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Shell)
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 132-156 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Umbrella)
Zacian vs Necrozma w Leftovers/Helmet/Shell/Boots
Leftovers
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 196-232 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Shed Shell
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 196-232 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO (Shell)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (Shell)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 196-232 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Shell)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Shell)
Speed creeping gothitelle (goth with 204 speed evs or 217 raw)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 185-218 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 183-217 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Boots
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 185-218 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 183-217 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 211-250 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 212-250 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To the groudon point, i'll skip since you never even refuted anything about it. I think the last one is the only 1 i'll touch is your complex ban suggestion. Simply put, It will simply be pivoting the problem and doing it poorly at that. There's a difference between the sleeptrap complex ban that's been in place and something as blanket as that. So you must run an attacking move? Taunt rest cosmic power stored power does virtually the same job it always had but now it can just snowball an entire team if an Yveltal has already been removed, which isn't outlandish. One of the strongest hits available, is CB crunch adamant Zacian. And you wanna know how much it gonna do when goth is +6? 28-33%. And stored power does 72 minimum. The pure strongest is Specs Caly-G and its a bloody 32% chance to even 2HKO with leftovers. and if it's choice scarf Caly-G it does 32-38%, while modest scarf doing 34-41%. Max attack Giratina-O Poltergeist does 29-35. And if you knocked it with a ferro it trapped Giratina Draco going to do an adorable 12-14. Your clause doesn't do anything to change what it can do. Specs Sets still exist uninhibited, and trap sets become potential sweepers, great clause. It's not weak either, After rocks with max powered SP it can just drop a Groudon 43% of the time after 1 rocks. Calcs below for the final time

Calcs.....

Groudon LOL
0 SpA Gothitelle Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Groudon: 291-343 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. +6 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 66-78 (19.2 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Poor Giratina-Origin...
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 102-122 (29.7 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. +6 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 42-49 (12.2 - 14.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Gothitelle Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-Origin: 265-313 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Giratina-Origin Poltergeist vs. 248 HP Gothitelle: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Calyrex-G Broken? Who
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. +6 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 164-194 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. +6 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 164-194 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. +6 248 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 110-132 (32 - 38.4%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gothitelle Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 134-158 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Gothitelle Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 134-158 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zacian needs a buff lul
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. +6 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 98-116 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zacian Crunch vs. +6 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 86-101 (25 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gothitelle Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian: 237-280 (72.9 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
D R A C O V I S H
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle: 120-142 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 75.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 56+ Def Gothitelle in Rain: 180-213 (52.4 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gothitelle Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 322-379 (100.3 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Before i go, i'm going to clarify something. I don't know why people think this, but saying somebody's opinion sucks doesn't automatically make it an attack on character. Gordon Ramsay can say Pineapple on pizza sucks but if i disagree with that opinion and say "this is Gordon's only miss, terrible opinion, alas!" that doesn't mean i think Gordon is a washed up fraud with no personality beyond "be rude" like WHAT.

Ban the goths

 

[Garrett]

Goth-proofing any team involves one of the following:
1.) Relegating item slots on too vulnerable of mons to be Shed Shell
2.) Speed creeping Gothitelle so that you can run a specific moveset which gets out of dodge from what's hopefully the PP stall set; if it's Scarf, get nae-nae'd (btw shoutouts SIlento for being charged with murder so that meme is dead)
3.) Running full-on offense only to be debunked by my last post

The first one is the best argument against why Goth might be competitive, but since the majority of mons that need Shed Shell really want Helmet or a recovery item that it really needs, I haven't really argued it well... but I'll just assert that Goth possesses too much of an iron grip on passive mons. The feeling of building with Goth around to anyone that actually has is really demotivating.

Here's one good example:
Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 136 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Thunder Wave
- Defog
- Roar

is a post Zacian-C ban Ho-Oh set I really like that is speed crept solely so that we can go fishing for Parahax to Roar Goth out, or force it to Rest faster for the same goal. In the same way Zacian-C forced an extremely specific spread on Ho-Oh before (which it defeated with SD, Goth defeats my Ho-Oh with Scarf), I really see this as no different.

Gothitelle can't trap Eternatus with Dragon tail nor offensive Eternatus. Even then, Eternatus can actually pp stall Gothitelle's Taunts and get out of situation alive. Yes, Gothitelle can beat Eternatus situationally. Gothitelle should never ever trap Blissey. It can Stoss and Teleport or parahax and Teleport or Toxic to force Rest then Teleport. It also can use Shed shell but I think that Teleport is a Great Move on Blissey that Should Be Used. Please educate yourself before making unasserted claim that Gothitelle and Scarf Kyogre core works because it doesn't.

The real issue is that I need Dragon Tail (which only otherwise covers CM Ogre) on Etern or SToss + Teleport (which mind you is a very specific combination of moves, one that presumably with Confide means we can no longer run Natural Cure) on Blissey in the first place. I don't even think Teleport Blissey is that great here since running Boots is usually a death sentence for it. Rocks are easy to get up in this tier.

Also "making unasserted claim that Gothitelle and Scarf Kyogre core works because it doesn't"

bro what

There are many viable sets that NDM can use to guarantee defeating Gothitelle. It's not my problem that you elect to use RNG prone NDM set to fish hax against Gothitelle as your strategy. I use far better NDM sets and I win more games than you do because of it. It's that simple.

Orch my man I'm not trying to Luna you but give me one viable set and spread that does this LOL, I honestly don't see how you can Goth-proof an NDM without giving up Helmet or a lot of bulk into Speed. If the only set that can do this is Shed Shell, then NDM cannot competitively be kept Goth-proof. Can't think of one that wouldn't destroy a lot of its defensive utility in Ubers, max-max is there for good reason.

Shadow Tag is one of those things where people WILL find ways to abuse in degenerate ways.

That's fair, but I'd say some are ok for the tier. Warren Wob-Buffett might annoy you with an Encore + Counter/Mirror Coat, but it's an actual gamble of whether you can live hits. Not to mention the more obvious point that Wobb is almost never better than a hard counter to something. Goth is uncompetitive but it inherently looks to guarantee a winning path for another mon on its team. Wobb just plays the stock market on whether or not it'll KO you before you KO it.

Therefore I think it's just Gothitelle + Gothorita that should have the suspect.

Quick add-ons:
1.) I'm on the fence about Calyrex-S being banworthy, but still lean towards not. Definitely deserves a Suspect Test in either case.
2.) Zac-H seems fine in A+ rank after playing some games, I don't think it's at all strong enough to deserve an invitation to AG.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

As someone new to the Ubers tier I had some questions about Palkia! Which set can be run best with him, and is he a good partner for Marshadow?

 

[Fc]

As someone new to the Ubers tier I had some questions about Palkia! Which set can be run best with him, and is he a good partner for Marshadow?

The best sets for mons rn can typically be found here and in the on site previews that are starting to go up, and personally I think the first set listed for palkia with leftovers and spacial rend used is the best as an offensive kyogre check. It can pair well with marshadow, especially if there’s hazards in play since palkia can pressure checks to marshadow such as zygarde while marshadow can threaten blissey and other mons, but they both have to be careful around xerneas to an extent. The team may be a little slow if those are the main breakers, but it could still be a worthwhile core. Marshadow is amazing rn and palkia isn’t too bad itself, so they both could work well.

 

[Fc]

Apologies for the double post, but I compiled all the Round 1 and 2 usage stats from ssnl

Round 1

SSNL R1

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |  243 |  88.04% |  50.21% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |  212 |  76.81% |  51.42% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |  169 |  61.23% |  52.66% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |  140 |  50.72% |  46.43% |
| 5    | Kyogre             |   92 |  33.33% |  47.83% |
| 6    | Xerneas            |   89 |  32.25% |  51.69% |
| 7    | Zygarde            |   76 |  27.54% |  52.63% |
| 8    | Ho-Oh              |   67 |  24.28% |  55.22% |
| 9    | Zacian             |   66 |  23.91% |  51.52% |
| 10   | Ferrothorn         |   51 |  18.48% |  54.90% |
| 11   | Groudon            |   45 |  16.30% |  46.67% |
| 12   | Zekrom             |   39 |  14.13% |  51.28% |
| 13   | Blissey            |   32 |  11.59% |  37.50% |
| 14   | Shuckle            |   31 |  11.23% |  54.84% |
| 15   | Marshadow          |   24 |   8.70% |  58.33% |
| 16   | Regieleki          |   21 |   7.61% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Palkia             |   17 |   6.16% |  35.29% |
| 18   | Tangrowth          |   16 |   5.80% |  56.25% |
| 19   | Ditto              |   15 |   5.43% |  73.33% |
| 19   | Lunala             |   15 |   5.43% |  46.67% |
| 21   | Gothitelle         |   14 |   5.07% |  42.86% |
| 22   | Urshifu-*          |   11 |   3.99% |  36.36% |
| 23   | Aerodactyl         |    9 |   3.26% |  66.67% |
| 23   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    9 |   3.26% |  44.44% |
| 25   | Shedinja           |    8 |   2.90% |  75.00% |
| 25   | Excadrill          |    8 |   2.90% |  25.00% |
| 27   | Rayquaza           |    7 |   2.54% |  85.71% |
| 27   | Galvantula         |    7 |   2.54% |  57.14% |
| 27   | Dracovish          |    7 |   2.54% |  57.14% |
| 30   | Toxapex            |    6 |   2.17% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Landorus           |    6 |   2.17% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Tyranitar          |    6 |   2.17% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Grimmsnarl         |    5 |   1.81% |  60.00% |
| 33   | Barraskewda        |    5 |   1.81% |  20.00% |
| 33   | Corviknight        |    5 |   1.81% |  20.00% |
| 33   | Genesect           |    5 |   1.81% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Buzzwole           |    4 |   1.45% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Giratina-Origin    |    4 |   1.45% |  75.00% |
| 37   | Lugia              |    4 |   1.45% |  75.00% |
| 37   | Ribombee           |    4 |   1.45% |  25.00% |
| 41   | Pheromosa          |    3 |   1.09% |  66.67% |
| 41   | Pelipper           |    3 |   1.09% |  33.33% |
| 41   | Chansey            |    3 |   1.09% |  33.33% |
| 41   | Froslass           |    3 |   1.09% |  33.33% |
| 45   | Slurpuff           |    2 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Kyurem-Black       |    2 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Dialga             |    2 |   0.72% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Klefki             |    2 |   0.72% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Amoonguss          |    2 |   0.72% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Dugtrio            |    2 |   0.72% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Melmetal           |    2 |   0.72% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Cinderace          |    2 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Landorus-Therian   |    2 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Porygon2           |    2 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Mew                |    2 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Kartana            |    2 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Regidrago          |    2 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Wobbuffet          |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Quagsire           |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Tapu Koko          |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Raichu-Alola       |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Jirachi            |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Lycanroc           |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Skarmory           |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Solgaleo           |    1 |   0.36% | 100.00% |
| 58   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Nidoking           |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Diggersby          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Rhydon             |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Reshiram           |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Mewtwo             |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Calyrex-Ice        |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Arcanine           |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Zapdos-Galar       |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Rillaboom          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Zamazenta          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Accelgor           |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Dracozolt          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Dragonite          |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Rotom-Frost        |    1 |   0.36% |   0.00% |

Round 2

SSNL R2

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |  170 |  87.63% |  48.82% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |  160 |  82.47% |  52.50% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |  106 |  54.64% |  50.94% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   80 |  41.24% |  42.50% |
| 5    | Xerneas            |   65 |  33.51% |  41.54% |
| 6    | Zacian             |   64 |  32.99% |  57.81% |
| 7    | Kyogre             |   63 |  32.47% |  41.27% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |   51 |  26.29% |  50.98% |
| 9    | Zekrom             |   42 |  21.65% |  54.76% |
| 10   | Ho-Oh              |   39 |  20.10% |  56.41% |
| 10   | Groudon            |   39 |  20.10% |  56.41% |
| 12   | Ferrothorn         |   25 |  12.89% |  52.00% |
| 13   | Blissey            |   22 |  11.34% |  45.45% |
| 14   | Tangrowth          |   20 |  10.31% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Marshadow          |   20 |  10.31% |  30.00% |
| 16   | Shuckle            |   18 |   9.28% |  61.11% |
| 17   | Gothitelle         |   15 |   7.73% |  53.33% |
| 18   | Ditto              |   14 |   7.22% |  21.43% |
| 19   | Rayquaza           |   13 |   6.70% |  76.92% |
| 19   | Regieleki          |   13 |   6.70% |  46.15% |
| 21   | Lunala             |   12 |   6.19% |  16.67% |
| 22   | Grimmsnarl         |   11 |   5.67% |  63.64% |
| 23   | Palkia             |   10 |   5.15% |  30.00% |
| 24   | Urshifu-*          |    9 |   4.64% |  66.67% |
| 25   | Froslass           |    6 |   3.09% |  83.33% |
| 26   | Jirachi            |    4 |   2.06% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Giratina-Origin    |    4 |   2.06% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Slurpuff           |    4 |   2.06% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Calyrex-Ice        |    4 |   2.06% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Kyurem-Black       |    4 |   2.06% |  25.00% |
| 31   | Shedinja           |    3 |   1.55% |  66.67% |
| 31   | Aerodactyl         |    3 |   1.55% |  66.67% |
| 31   | Landorus           |    3 |   1.55% |  33.33% |
| 31   | Magearna           |    3 |   1.55% |  33.33% |
| 31   | Dracovish          |    3 |   1.55% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Zamazenta-Crowned  |    2 |   1.03% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Victini            |    2 |   1.03% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Hydreigon          |    2 |   1.03% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Mewtwo             |    2 |   1.03% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Pheromosa          |    2 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 36   | Giratina           |    2 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Genesect           |    2 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Galvantula         |    2 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Tyranitar          |    2 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Hatterene          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Dialga             |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Marowak-Alola      |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Lugia              |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Corviknight        |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Melmetal           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Excadrill          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Suicune            |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Zarude             |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Wobbuffet          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Chansey            |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Rillaboom          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Klefki             |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Landorus-Therian   |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Sirfetch’d         |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Magnemite          |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Buzzwole           |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Porygon2           |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Ribombee           |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Cloyster           |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Mew                |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |

These are (hopefully if I got them all) all the stats from the replays posted in the threads which won't include the r2 extension games, and these stats are a big reason that they were mandated in the first place. Ubers recently had a major shift with the banning of Zacian-Crowned, and these stats will help us show how the meta is shaping up to be and if any development is popping up. While raw stats can't completely show everything, it gives some indication on how teams are looking and what's on the rise/fall.


No surprise here, Yveltal maintaining above 87% usage across 2 rounds of the tour. It's the best mon in the meta, and while Calyrex-Shadow inflates the usage drastically, Yveltal can still fit on all styles of teams and perform well due to its raw stats and power.


Second place both weeks, maintaining above 76% usage across 2 rounds. The banning of Zacian-C hasn't freed this thing from being close to necessary at all, so it's keeping up the usage for what looks like at least the near future, but likely much longer. It's still a very good way to beat a lot of things like Zacian-H and Xerneas which are big, as well as not being OHKO'd by many moves and having a solid support movepool.



| 19 | Ditto | 15 | 5.43% | 73.33% |
| 18 | Ditto | 14 | 7.22% | 21.43% |

These stats are super varied, where ditto went from the highest winrate mon in the top 20 by far in round 1, to a mon that scraped out a few wins in the following one. I personally am not a huge fan of ditto in general, and feel like it always does something, but if round 2 shows anything it's that the job is sometimes not the best thing to have on the team, or at least a weird one when compared to round 1.


Sitting right below the big 3 of Yveltal Necrozma and Eternatus both rounds, Calyrex has made its presence known in the meta. With the insanely high Yveltal usage it hasn't matched it yet, but it has stayed comfortably 4th hovering around a 50% winrate but just below both rounds, somewhat expected out of a mon with that much usage, just lower than the 3 mons above it in terms of winrate.


Another big point of discussion here, it had a somewhat lacking round 1 stat wise but shot back up to a positive winrate round 2 while going from just outside of it to a top 20 usage mon. The replays of certain games show its potential much more than pure stats, but still interesting to look at.


So there's a few of the bigger things I noticed, but I wanted to compile these to open up more discussion! What do people think is underrated, how are people liking the meta, stuff like that. This large sample size is quite helpful for advancements in the meta, so it'll be interesting to see what happens in further rounds.

 

[AM]

Think Eternatus is overrated. Good status sponge but I spend more time clicking Recover than doing anything useful, since being forced to recover let's whatever threat come in. At this point I try avoid using it where I can. Meta sucks, mostly due to Calyrex than Goth, Goth hit or miss from the games I watched.

I think Ho-Oh is underrated, keep the boots on it pretty much won't go down for a long time. Marshadow too but I guess it's more so good than just underrated.

 

[shadowpea]

In every round, 50% of the people win, and 50% of the people lose. Yveltal has a near-50% winrate with a 85%+ usage. Almost everyone is forced to use Yveltal. I'm sure a certain horse haven't been behind it or anything.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Eternatus is nowhere as good as Calyrex-SR as usage stats suggest, Calyrex basically has put Yveltal at top. Eternatus is mostly just a passive Kyogre check and food for Goth.

 

[Manaphy]

Think Eternatus is overrated. Good status sponge but I spend more time clicking Recover than doing anything useful, since being forced to recover let's whatever threat come in.

I recommend you try this Blissey set instead of Eternatus:

Blissey @ Utility Umbrella
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
-Shadow Ball / Seismic Toss / Ice Beam
-Confide / Aromatherapy
-Teleport / Confide
-Softboiled

I like it a lot, compared to Eternatus you don’t have to worry about Ogre predicting Ice Beams on you. Plus, it forms a great backup check to Yveltal, freeing up your Yveltal to run more Defense or Attack; Confide makes Blissey an excellent check to Xerneas and CM Kyogre as well. In particular I think checking Xerneas is huge, because many Yve/Etern/NDM cores struggle to beat Xerneas if they only have NDM to check Xern (considering Xerneas beats Nec 1v1). Additionally, Blissey is notably probably the only check for Power Herb Eternatus.

You also have amazing utility options, with Aromatherapy being massively useful for balance and stall teams (fuck Zygarde), and Teleport giving Blissey a ton of momentum as well as an out for Gothitelle. People will criticize Blissey as passive but I really don’t see it when it can Teleport away at any time and get you a lot of momentum, not to mention the massive utility and role compression you get from it.
In terms of abilities, Confide + Teleport is only legal with Healer, so you’d likely want another cleric like Calyrex or Xerneas as a partner. If you chose to run Ice Beam, you can run Serene Grace, which gives each Ice Beam a 20% chance to freeze. This makes Ice Beam really spammable as a high freeze chance will randomly win you games. Just make sure you run it with Aromatherapy, otherwise, run Natural Cure.
Utility Umbrella makes Blissey probably the best check to Specs Kyogre in the whole game, just make sure you don’t switch into a modest one with rocks up. If it’s a Scarf Ogre, you can teleport on it like crazy.

Hell, Blissey can even have uses for HO teams, as seen in my replay here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-540600
I’ve affectionately referred to this HO style as “Blissey HO”. Blissey gives nice role compression for HO teams, and can give you a lot of momentum with Thunder Wave, Rocks, or using Healing Wish to let one of your sweepers come back in and do work. Healing Wish won me my game in this replay. It’s pretty cool and a fresh style for HO imo. Currently, HO teams have to rely on using DD Necrozma as their Xerneas check, which kinda sucks, and also many have to use Yveltal as their Calyrex check, which also kinda sucks. Blissey fills both slots nicely.

Goth hit or miss from the games I watched.

The exact problem with Gothitelle is that it turns games into hit-or-miss matchups.

 

[FearNeverDies]

Now that the meta is on a stable position i think we need to open the discuss for one of the most controversial ubers just after Zacian Crowned: Calyrex Shadow Rider.


Shadow Rider is one of the new legendaries introduces in the crown tundra, just when you see the stats and the moves that he, learn you notice he have, incredible power and impact for the ubers meta game. To much can be said about this mon and for most part of this forum its been said. The point of this disscussion (for the record) is just open the idea to the players that the meta is gonna evolve if we decide to ban Calyrex SR and why we should considerer as a worthy ban.

First of all, we need to take considerer of hes moves and stats: Decent bulk with 100/80/100 with and amazing combination of SpA and speed with 165/150. The third highest of all the special atackers and the fourth highest speed in the game. He dosnt face any competion with that stats and move pool, cause he have acces to the stronger offensive move in the game, Atral barrage with 120 BP ghost type without dropbacks. Is easy to see how strong is the pokemon and how deadly is in the metagame. He finde just one consistent check (Mainly a true counter) on Yveltal, everything else just take massive damage from his atacks including Blissey and Chansey thanks to pyshock. He also have a decent support move pool with things like aromatherapy, WoW, taunt, substitute, encore and both CM and NP this thing even have some "Decent" recovery move in draining kiss and life dew both are weird but there still viable options.

I would no compare Calyrex SR with Zacian Crowned cause the first have some consistente counterplay for his mainly sets and thats not the point of this post, i want to talk about how powerfull is this thing and how even if we ban goth (Probably the only problem for the current meta) teams and playstyle would remind as the same. At the moment nothing is more powerfull than the holy trinity:


You can play without this mons but that dosnt mean this arent strong enought to compete agaisnt the mayority of the metagame, as you still have 3 options to complete the team makes the most part of the meta the same: 1 breaker most part of the times SR, 1 physical threat like groudon or marsh and finally something that check this last two like lunala, zygarde or buzzwole. Break this core with calyrex make things incredible hard to deal with it, as Calyrex SR dosnt face any faster pokemons is easy to protec both offensive and defensive this cores. The impact of SR is huge for the most part of players, as you cant consider other special atackers cause SR alredy outclass most part of them, im gonna give you a few examples.


Worst speed tier, decent coverage and less special atacker makes that you cant considerer mewtwo as a special breaker, still have incredible power and this days sucker punch yveltal is no common as it could be. so mabe it can work but just share same problems as SR without the beneffit of the support move. (No, bulky mewtwo is not a good option)

and
Both are just a worst calyrex, slower, less power and dosnt have a good offensive ability. Luna still have a niche as Zygarde and Groudon check but is to passive for that role and depends on shadow shield. Also rex have better offensive moves, acces to wisp and aromatherapy to support the team made is not totaly outclassed in that way. DW is just a lost cause even with meteor beam and better atack than Lunala. Both struggles to beat Yveltal.


Poor speed tie, terrible defensive type and depends on choice and predict to win, struggles against ho oh and both Blissey wich complete wall this thing, also LO struggles even more cause the longevity and scarf to outspeed etern and KO is just a poor decision., still have a decent special atack and coverage moves.


Decent stats, poor speed tie, depends on lock items and struggles against both Ho oh and Blissey, still have decent moves as blue flare and stone edge but lacks on impact in the late game. Same problem as kyurem longevity, hurts if you are using LO.


Stronger moves, decent special atack and incredible defensive combination on stats and typing, is to slow, lacks on a usful offensive combination stab (Still can hit Xern and Zac with flash cannon), struggles against Blissey (Not ho oh thanks to power gem) and in the worst part cant pass yveltal. Offers decent support to the team but is hard to justified over other ubers.


This thing hurts, decent stats, amazing type and offensive movepool but shit accuracy, cant over pass Blissey and Yveltal and most part of the games you need to worry more for the accuracy of your moves than for the enemy switchs. Still great cause dosnt really need an offensive item to work so you can run leftovers with substitute to punish switchs.


Incredible uber, same as always but offers better defensive synergy, status spam, hex and draco meteor are still usable and acces to defog, CM and substitute and as a Groudon and Zygarde check is amazing, but unfortunately lacks on recovery, have a poor speed tie and is hard to justified in a team over other options, still have a "decent" match against blissey cause the ghost type.

Or you just get outclass by power or cause the support options that SR can run to help the team, nothing to say that is a decent scarf usser and a spectacular specs abuser. Even if SR outclass this things dosnt mean they arent great, is just hard to justified one of this thins over SR most part of the games. Only real reason to not using SR over this things is if you want to test it, have some fun or even if you cant use it, like in the Flying economy tournament. We should considerer ban Calyrex Shadow to help the meta to evolve in something enjoyble even if that is not a real reason to ban it. As long as Shadow Rider reamins on the tier is hard to find variety in the teams and in the teambuilding, cause most part of the times you dont need other special atacker. All of the mention pokemons can overpass the holy trinity most part of the times but they just need more turn than Calyrex to do that, i hope you can see how opressive is this mon for the teambuilding (Not for the battles itself) and how if we ban this, more things can come to the game and make this and better meta.

 

[Garrett]

This thing hurts, decent stats, amazing type and offensive movepool but shit accuracy, cant over pass Blissey

Focus Punch Palkia is a great tech for Blissey/Tyranitar/Ferrothorn.

 

[Fc]

We should considerer ban Calyrex Shadow to help the meta to evolve in something enjoyble even if that is not a real reason to ban it.

I wasn't going to go super in depth on my opinions on Calyrex-S yet at least, but I figure why not at least put out my own opinion on why Calyrex-S should not be banned, or imo even suspect tested, even though there is a large calling for it. I think people are jumping way too fast on things that are new to the meta, and are looking at all the wrong things when considering suspect testing something in Ubers. Focusing on but not intentionally targeting this post since it was the largest one on this topic recently, but I'll try to cover all the bases right here. Speaking on behalf of myself and not anyone else on the council, as the future is still uncertain with regards to specifics.

Timing: I believe that this could be a large factor in why a suspect discussion around this in particular could happen, and I think it's something that has to be thought through before calling for anything or jumping into anything. Calyrex-S has been out for less that 4 months, and Dynamax has been banned on it for less than 3 as of writing this post. That's an extremely short amount of time for something that is easily debatable on if it's broken or not. Mega Ray lasting only a week was an anomaly, but it was insanely hard to argue it wasn't the most broken usable pokemon ever created, maybe even up to now. I think that especially with how bad Zacian-C was also, jumping on the ban train is natural and hoping for things like this to just be removed. While I myself am jumping on the ban train as well for Gothitelle, I thought it was banworthy since before this dlc and think they are quite different in terms of impact for the clear reasons behind Shadow Tag being broken, uncompetitive, and restricting past the point of most things seen in the game, especially for something that isn't an inherently offensive threat.

This is an arguably weak point, because if something is clearly broken then I don't think the length we wait for a suspect should have to be long, but I don't think this is clearly broken. Based on this post, a large argument is to just free up the meta, and I don't think that's ever a reason to ban a mon in Ubers. There's always restriction, you have to somehow check all these broken threats, but if we banned everything that had a small list of viable checks that could even be broken through by the mons then half the tier would be banned. I'll admit that when Caly was first released I saw an easy ban decision, but then Dynamax was banned and as time went on I felt like it became a lot easier to handle, a lot less oppressive, and the recency bias faded. I think post Zacian-C that there's more than enough room to still beat Calyrex, and at the very least the meta should flesh out and even though I doubt the restriction will go away, the in game aspects of it being as powerful may lessen as people adapt.

Teambuilding: This seems to be the main point of concern for people, where they say how restricting it is in the builder, and honestly I agree. It's impossible to build without a check to it barring some full HO, and even then Yveltal is preferred, but it's insanely powerful so no complaints there since a lot of HO would run it anyway. Yveltal is obviously the preferred mon to beat it as shown by the usage stats, and it's clear why. Yveltal is an amazing mon, and I don't think having to run it on most teams unless you want to get creative with picks is a bad thing.

When looking at the list of checks and counters to Caly, I think the best ones to mention are Yveltal, Tyranitar, Porygon2, Ho-oh + another switch in, and if paired with Ho-oh then stuff like Zarude could be used to good effect even. This list is small, but 3 mons that function decent on their own even though p2 likes Ho-oh support then some other possible cores for variety is not that bad imo. I've seen a lot about specs Grass Knot as an argument against ttar, but in around 90% of games just bc of Yveltal usage then it's a worse move overall compared to Aromatherapy, so I think Tyranitar is safe since it isn't even OHKO'd and if that's a huge concern then a pivot like Ho-oh can patch things up nicely. When comparing this to other mons like Kyogre or Zacian-H, I don't see much of a difference, and I feel like that's being ignored. Everything in ubers has minimal counterplay. That's why they're ubers in the first place, nothing reliably switches into them, and the ones that are at the top in ubers can even bypass the other ubers here to check them. Realistically, Kyogre is checked by Eternatus, Ferrothorn, Palkia, and Blissey as frequently used mons, then a few mid mons like Dialga, and niche ones like Zarude, Gastrodon, or Shedinja. This is a small list especially for what's actually being used out of these, but Kyogre doesn't have as good offensive counterplay and has more set variety arguably. I'm not trying to say it's better than Caly, but it lacks reliable checks in a similar way, being able to break almost every mon there with a common set. Specs spout breaks Ferrothorn, specs Ice Beam breaks Eternatus as does spout through webs and cm if it doesn't run an option specifically for that set like Mystical Fire or dtail (in which case twave can do its thing), and Blissey has to run umbrella to not be easily 2HKO'd by specs spout. Dialga is also 2HKO'd by specs spout, palkia has no reliable recovery, etc. Same goes for Zacian-H, its counterplay is like Dusk Mane which banded 2HKO's with rolls, then a steel + a pivot like Tangrowth. Arguably the smallest list of checks in ubers and even they aren't super reliable, but that happens with the power behind ubers. What I'm getting at with this is that all the top tier mons force centralization, and they are all sometimes strong enough to muscle through their checks. I think caly has a much harder time in game which I'll get to next, but even in the builder I find something like Zacian-H harder to manage with variety instead of throwing tang/ho-oh/amoongus + dusk mane on every team.

In Game: I think that compared to in teambuilding, Calyrex-S is much easier to deal with in game given that you pick a good enough way to deal with it. Yveltal is the obvious choice, and I find that Calyrex has quite a hard time breaking through it, let alone quick enough for it to matter in some games. I'll drop a few replays here but I feel like both sides of the argument could just throw replays at each other so I'll keep that to a minimum. With regards to Yveltal specifically since it's the most common check to Caly, against choiced sets it has to get tricked, have rocks go up, switch into rocks and an astral barrage, then it can roost to full. If the caly stays in then it's a few 50/50's in a row, but if there's a Ho-oh pivot or something it should be fine to just switch around unboosted attacks even when choiced. You'd have to get the Yvel really low, keep rocks up, then win multiple 50/50's to break it, and I think that standard Sp.def sets should be enough. Sash on HO can't 2hko with Dkiss and snarl beats that, as it does for sub seed even though U-turn is a better option for that with a revenge killer imo since it's not a useless move against non-caly targets. Outside of just Yveltal, Ho-oh + p2 realistically beats it most of the time if played right, since Caly can't 2hko p2 with specs psyshock, it's actually a very good roll for Caly to only 3hko, and if Ho-oh takes the specs then it never breaks. Trick can be played around to fit the needs of the game, and while not as good as Yveltal, this works. Tyranitar similarly beats most sets in game barring specs grass knot that gets multiple plays right, and as mentioned just a pivot can fix that and speed control can try to remedy it if the check does go down. Ho-oh + Zarude kinda sounds like a meme I mentioned, but it's been used multiple times in tour games and has worked as a team without being unviable because of no Yveltal and Zarude being on it, regardless of if there's a Caly which in theory it has all the necessary tools to beat with pivoting and a wall for everything barring like Pollen Puff which isn't a used move.

Similarly to Zacian-H which I feel like is much harder to deal with in the builder compared to in game if it's prepped for right in the builder, Calyrex-S is much easier to beat in practice. I feel like if I lose to it then it's my fault as a player with a prepared team, compared to something like the previous Zacian-C meta where you got assuranced and you feel like it's just up to 50/50's every time it hits the field that are basically game ending. Caly also doesn't benefit super heavily from Gothitelle, as Yveltal is the best check and it beats goth making that another thing it doesn't have in game and in the builder like Zacian-C. I think the comparisons have to be made so that we can decide where we want the relative cutoff to be for bans and suspects in the tier, something I'll get to more in depth.

I don't know the stances of people in these replays on these opinions, just think they are good high level games that show it being not terrible to deal with when prepped for accordingly. I should honestly expect replays of it winning games thrown back at me but I think anti ban people have to prove a larger point just based on assumed general opinion so I wanted to use these few.

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[Gen 8] Ubers replay: Nalei vs. lord crucify - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
I think this replay shows off decently how you can overwhelm Calyrex, although Crucify just played it extremely well. After getting tricked with multiple hazards up and letting the Yveltal get to around 60 it's still out of range of 2 Calyrex hits, but is instead used offensively by predicting a double. It could have still been preserved and beaten the Calyrex especially with the rocker sleeping, but was still played around well and could have been played safer and still won.

[Gen 8] Ubers replay: Geysers vs. Catalystic - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
Here, Catalystic uses pivots with Blissey and Yveltal to play around the late game Calyrex after it tricks Yveltal without a lot of trouble. It was held off with pressure through the early and mid game, and was dealt with very well with a good core.

[Gen 8] Ubers replay: baconeatinassassin vs. tjay - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
Although a replay with Zacian-C, bacon still plays extremely well around Calyrex with an Yveltal that was tricked turn 14 in a 75 turn game where it stuck around and won. Calyrex can't deal meaningful damage immediately, and even when bacon roosted on the Caly staying in it didn't deal any damage to the team, as it's in the hands of the Calyrex user to click the right attack while being conservative with the limited 8 pp of astral barrage.

Tiering: This is a controversial point, and something that is highly subjective and a problem unique mostly to Ubers. Where other tiers for the most part can follow the tiering policy framework to get a sense of what's right for suspecting / quick banning, Ubers is unique since it was founded off the basis of no bans for anything, and since that hasn't held up no one's sure of what Ubers is or should try to be. This whole topic could be multiple threads by itself as it has been so I'll simply state my opinion on it here and how it relates to Calyrex-S ideally as concisely as possible. I think that if a Pokemon has no reliable checks in game and an extremely overwhelming presence in the builder with minimal offensive counterplay as well, it is too much for the tier. This is the definition of what Zacian-C was, and I don't think anything beyond Zacian-C should be banned off power alone currently. Zacian had sun sets to beat both Quagsire and Dusk mane, Play Rough to stall out quag, sd sets to beat dusk mane, assurance to beat dusk mane, and bulky sets to improof at full. It was insanely fast and bulky, with even adamant Dugtrio not OHKO'ing it at full with 0 bulk investment. I believe that this was not something that was healthy for the meta, and used unreliable measures of hoping for sets and running unviable picks like quagsire to beat it. I don't see any of this in Calyrex-S, and think that banning it would dip too low for the standards I believe should be set. That's a personal opinion of course, but I don't think it is restricting enough or strong enough in game to warrant a ban currently.

Final Verdict: Based on what I think Ubers should strive to hold as a standard for bans as well as the power of Calyrex-S, I don't think that it is banworthy currently. It has too reliable checks and good enough revenge killers to be at the level of what should be considered too much even amongst other ubers. Seems like this may be another discussion to go along with Gothitelle, but discussing the meta is why we're here so I'll leave it at that. These are just my thoughts on Calyrex-S in the current meta, I think that it should remain in the tier due to everything mentioned here.

 

[Ropalme1914]

wasn't going to go super in depth on my opinions on Calyrex-S yet at least, but I figure why not at least put out my own opinion on why Calyrex-S should not be banned, or imo even suspect tested, even though there is a large calling for it. I think people are jumping way too fast on things that are new to the meta, and are looking at all the wrong things when considering suspect testing something in Ubers. Focusing on but not intentionally targeting this post since it was the largest one on this topic recently, but I'll try to cover all the bases right here. Speaking on behalf of myself and not anyone else on the council, as the future is still uncertain with regards to specifics.

Although I agree with a few points, there are some others that I can't really do the same. Although I have already voiced my opinion on Caly, I think going more specifically on what each party thinks about those and the differing opinions are better to understand both sides, so I'll try to do that here.

Timing: I believe that this could be a large factor in why a suspect discussion around this in particular could happen, and I think it's something that has to be thought through before calling for anything or jumping into anything. Calyrex-S has been out for less that 4 months, and Dynamax has been banned on it for less than 3 as of writing this post. That's an extremely short amount of time for something that is easily debatable on if it's broken or not. Mega Ray lasting only a week was an anomaly, but it was insanely hard to argue it wasn't the most broken usable pokemon ever created, maybe even up to now. I think that especially with how bad Zacian-C was also, jumping on the ban train is natural and hoping for things like this to just be removed. While I myself am jumping on the ban train as well for Gothitelle, I thought it was banworthy since before this dlc and think they are quite different in terms of impact for the clear reasons behind Shadow Tag being broken, uncompetitive, and restricting past the point of most things seen in the game, especially for something that isn't an inherently offensive threat.

This is an arguably weak point, because if something is clearly broken then I don't think the length we wait for a suspect should have to be long, but I don't think this is clearly broken. Based on this post, a large argument is to just free up the meta, and I don't think that's ever a reason to ban a mon in Ubers. There's always restriction, you have to somehow check all these broken threats, but if we banned everything that had a small list of viable checks that could even be broken through by the mons then half the tier would be banned. I'll admit that when Caly was first released I saw an easy ban decision, but then Dynamax was banned and as time went on I felt like it became a lot easier to handle, a lot less oppressive, and the recency bias faded. I think post Zacian-C that there's more than enough room to still beat Calyrex, and at the very least the meta should flesh out and even though I doubt the restriction will go away, the in game aspects of it being as powerful may lessen as people adapt.

I think this is a decent point tbh, as the meta also naturally tries to adapt with what's more powerful currently, so new, strong Pokémon do appear more powerful than they are actually are after they're released than later on most of the time. Only thing that I'm not too happy with is the pace of that, which imo shows the lack of many options that we have: at the start, we did use Yveltal and Tyranitar for Calyrex mainly. A few months later, the things that changed is that Yveltal has a dedicated slot to deal with SubSeed sets, so they aren't nearly as oppressive as before, Porygon2 rose up a bit as a viable answer...and that's about it. Even those more niche answers like Zarude are imo reaching a bit, as although they do have some viability attached to them like also helping against Zygarde, the fact that people are digging this far just for non-Yveltal answers even after this time has passed is a bit worrying for me.

Teambuilding: This seems to be the main point of concern for people, where they say how restricting it is in the builder, and honestly I agree. It's impossible to build without a check to it barring some full HO, and even then Yveltal is preferred, but it's insanely powerful so no complaints there since a lot of HO would run it anyway. Yveltal is obviously the preferred mon to beat it as shown by the usage stats, and it's clear why. Yveltal is an amazing mon, and I don't think having to run it on most teams unless you want to get creative with picks is a bad thing.

Can't agree that full HO can afford to go without a check, Yveltal still appears every time on them and it also tends to either include some other form of priority or Regieleki in the case of webs teams as it's the only viable Pokémon faster than it, and even then, just looking at basically any HO team still list Calyrex as one of their biggest threats most of the time. Yveltal is an amazing mon, yes (I even voiced my opinion that it's probably Calyrex holding this thing back to actually show its true power), but not 80% usage good without the utility of making you not lose to one very specific Pokémon. Unlike say, Primal Groudon or Arceus, both Pokémon that had similar usage in the past, those had multiple roles on each team with various sets that did different stuff with some of them barely overlapping each other, while Yveltal is an auto inclusion, compared to those two, has a lot more influence from the others than its own.

When looking at the list of checks and counters to Caly, I think the best ones to mention are Yveltal, Tyranitar, Porygon2, Ho-oh + another switch in, and if paired with Ho-oh then stuff like Zarude could be used to good effect even. This list is small, but 3 mons that function decent on their own even though p2 likes Ho-oh support then some other possible cores for variety is not that bad imo. I've seen a lot about specs Grass Knot as an argument against ttar, but in around 90% of games just bc of Yveltal usage then it's a worse move overall compared to Aromatherapy, so I think Tyranitar is safe since it isn't even OHKO'd and if that's a huge concern then a pivot like Ho-oh can patch things up nicely. When comparing this to other mons like Kyogre or Zacian-H, I don't see much of a difference, and I feel like that's being ignored. Everything in ubers has minimal counterplay. That's why they're ubers in the first place, nothing reliably switches into them, and the ones that are at the top in ubers can even bypass the other ubers here to check them. Realistically, Kyogre is checked by Eternatus, Ferrothorn, Palkia, and Blissey as frequently used mons, then a few mid mons like Dialga, and niche ones like Zarude, Gastrodon, or Shedinja. This is a small list especially for what's actually being used out of these, but Kyogre doesn't have as good offensive counterplay and has more set variety arguably. I'm not trying to say it's better than Caly, but it lacks reliable checks in a similar way, being able to break almost every mon there with a common set. Specs spout breaks Ferrothorn, specs Ice Beam breaks Eternatus as does spout through webs and cm if it doesn't run an option specifically for that set like Mystical Fire or dtail (in which case twave can do its thing), and Blissey has to run umbrella to not be easily 2HKO'd by specs spout. Dialga is also 2HKO'd by specs spout, palkia has no reliable recovery, etc. Same goes for Zacian-H, its counterplay is like Dusk Mane which banded 2HKO's with rolls, then a steel + a pivot like Tangrowth. Arguably the smallest list of checks in ubers and even they aren't super reliable, but that happens with the power behind ubers. What I'm getting at with this is that all the top tier mons force centralization, and they are all sometimes strong enough to muscle through their checks. I think caly has a much harder time in game which I'll get to next, but even in the builder I find something like Zacian-H harder to manage with variety instead of throwing tang/ho-oh/amoongus + dusk mane on every team.

I think dismissing Grass Knot because it's not common due to Yveltal being largerly the choice of check for anyone is not fair because that's directly related to people not using Tyranitar. If Tyranitar becomes more common, Grass Knot is extremely easy fit there - although utility from Aromatherapy is always great, it's more a move that Calyrex can afford than a move that it needs, which is why you also see choiced sets with Nasty Plot over that slot too, something that you quite literally can't even click on some matchups since you want to keep the Choice item. This gets even worse if Nasty Plot LO starts running it, as +2 Grass Knot straight up OHKOes Tyranitar, although I guess Draining Kiss is a bit harder to remove than Aromatherapy there due to the higher vulnerability to chip damage.
Compared to Kyogre, I also think they aren't on the same level. Even just taking the checks that you mentioned on the VR: we start off strong with the top 1 Pokémon as the check, but them see a harsh drop to a B rank Pokémon and just on the third one we already reached the C ranks (imo Porygon2 could be a bit higher tho), with Ho-Oh also being a good A rank mon but that can't do the job by itself. Going into Kyogre tho, we also start with a S rank Pokémon in Eternatus, A on Ferrothorn, and A- on Palkia and Blissey. The drop in quality when we try to search for Calyrex checks here is clear: Kyogre you can still aford high quality Pokémon that would be used regardless, Calyrex there's only one Pokémon that you can fully say the same, with Tyranitar being a mixed bag and actually right above Dialga that you mentioned on the mid mons section for Ogre. Kyogre not having good offensively also hits me as an odd statement: I agree with that for Scarf sets, but every other set is actually better dealt with offensively than defensively due to Kyogre's below average Speed tier, and even Scarf sets are vulnerable to hazards and priority as offensive counterplay. Especially compared to Calyrex, one of offense main headaches rn, I actually think Kyogre can pretty tame when we look at both side by side. Zacian-Hero is more comparable in how limiting it is, yes, but it also comes with higher risk for each play it does due to it being always choice locked with none of its moves being as spammable as Astral Barrage and also having to deal with chip damage from Rocky Helmet and even more vulnerability to status due to burn and no Aromatherapy, although that enters more on your other point.

In Game: I think that compared to in teambuilding, Calyrex-S is much easier to deal with in game given that you pick a good enough way to deal with it. Yveltal is the obvious choice, and I find that Calyrex has quite a hard time breaking through it, let alone quick enough for it to matter in some games. I'll drop a few replays here but I feel like both sides of the argument could just throw replays at each other so I'll keep that to a minimum. With regards to Yveltal specifically since it's the most common check to Caly, against choiced sets it has to get tricked, have rocks go up, switch into rocks and an astral barrage, then it can roost to full. If the caly stays in then it's a few 50/50's in a row, but if there's a Ho-oh pivot or something it should be fine to just switch around unboosted attacks even when choiced. You'd have to get the Yvel really low, keep rocks up, then win multiple 50/50's to break it, and I think that standard Sp.def sets should be enough. Sash on HO can't 2hko with Dkiss and snarl beats that, as it does for sub seed even though U-turn is a better option for that with a revenge killer imo since it's not a useless move against non-caly targets. Outside of just Yveltal, Ho-oh + p2 realistically beats it most of the time if played right, since Caly can't 2hko p2 with specs psyshock, it's actually a very good roll for Caly to only 3hko, and if Ho-oh takes the specs then it never breaks. Trick can be played around to fit the needs of the game, and while not as good as Yveltal, this works. Tyranitar similarly beats most sets in game barring specs grass knot that gets multiple plays right, and as mentioned just a pivot can fix that and speed control can try to remedy it if the check does go down. Ho-oh + Zarude kinda sounds like a meme I mentioned, but it's been used multiple times in tour games and has worked as a team without being unviable because of no Yveltal and Zarude being on it, regardless of if there's a Caly which in theory it has all the necessary tools to beat with pivoting and a wall for everything barring like Pollen Puff which isn't a used move.

Can't disagree much with the Yveltal part, although the vulnerability to Trick exists, it's not the easiest Pokémon to break, that's for sure. However, when it comes to Porygon2 + Ho-Oh, for example, things also can get a bit hard, as Choiced Porygon is not nearly as useful as a Choiced Yveltal still can be, and the pivoting can also become harder if Calyrex chose Nasty Plot over Aromatherapy. Tyranitar also is a bit easier to break than you might think, as you realistically don't need multiple plays right actually:

252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 226-266 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

What this means is that, if you switch into Grass Knot once, you already are at risk of getting 2HKOed by Astral Barrage itself, even without hazards up. Even if you include Leftovers, just having Stealth Rock up on the second case also is a very good chance for Calyrex to win, and guaranteed if you had it up on both cases:

252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (this is assuming Tyranitar coming at 203 HP, which Grass Knot minimal roll + 1 turn of Leftovers)

Also having to justify a team as "not unviable without Yveltal" is not the best indicator too I think, but I'll give it to you it's possible, although you have to go WAY out of your way to do it.

Similarly to Zacian-H which I feel like is much harder to deal with in the builder compared to in game if it's prepped for right in the builder, Calyrex-S is much easier to beat in practice. I feel like if I lose to it then it's my fault as a player with a prepared team, compared to something like the previous Zacian-C meta where you got assuranced and you feel like it's just up to 50/50's every time it hits the field that are basically game ending. Caly also doesn't benefit super heavily from Gothitelle, as Yveltal is the best check and it beats goth making that another thing it doesn't have in game and in the builder like Zacian-C. I think the comparisons have to be made so that we can decide where we want the relative cutoff to be for bans and suspects in the tier, something I'll get to more in depth.

I don't know the stances of people in these replays on these opinions, just think they are good high level games that show it being not terrible to deal with when prepped for accordingly. I should honestly expect replays of it winning games thrown back at me but I think anti ban people have to prove a larger point just based on assumed general opinion so I wanted to use these few.

Fair points, I left my thoughts about why I also think Zacian-H has a similar impact but not the same. Gothitelle also favours Calyrex imo by making some stuff just go more offensive instead of using hard balance builds that are too passive to beat Goth, but Yveltal is a double edged sword. As for the replays, I think some of them bring Calyrex too late where the game was basically lost anyway, although the pressure it does put still is noteworthy. For some replays that I think are worth looking into:

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[Gen 8] Ubers replay: Nora's Child vs. icemaster - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
Although icemaster got a nice burn on Yveltal to help Lunala, it constantly keeps up the pressure since Calyrex is not the only thing Yveltal is necessary for. After Yveltal is worn out enough by the other Pokémon, Calyrex has an open path to sweep even without needing to Trick it at all.
[Gen 8] Ubers replay: Robjr vs. Steels Kitty ♪ - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
After steelskitty Tricks Yveltal, Robjr just has to constantly outplay his opponent every turn since he's basically one good turn away from losing, and even after that, Calyrex still has the Speed control over the field to keep Zacian in check and prepare the entire field for Zygarde, as sacking the other mons would lead to a Calyrex win anyway
I think those replays are just going to be "games where Yveltal was broken" vs "games where Yveltal was not broken", so idk how much it's worth to keep going with that

Tiering: This is a controversial point, and something that is highly subjective and a problem unique mostly to Ubers. Where other tiers for the most part can follow the tiering policy framework to get a sense of what's right for suspecting / quick banning, Ubers is unique since it was founded off the basis of no bans for anything, and since that hasn't held up no one's sure of what Ubers is or should try to be. This whole topic could be multiple threads by itself as it has been so I'll simply state my opinion on it here and how it relates to Calyrex-S ideally as concisely as possible. I think that if a Pokemon has no reliable checks in game and an extremely overwhelming presence in the builder with minimal offensive counterplay as well, it is too much for the tier. This is the definition of what Zacian-C was, and I don't think anything beyond Zacian-C should be banned off power alone currently. Zacian had sun sets to beat both Quagsire and Dusk mane, Play Rough to stall out quag, sd sets to beat dusk mane, assurance to beat dusk mane, and bulky sets to improof at full. It was insanely fast and bulky, with even adamant Dugtrio not OHKO'ing it at full with 0 bulk investment. I believe that this was not something that was healthy for the meta, and used unreliable measures of hoping for sets and running unviable picks like quagsire to beat it. I don't see any of this in Calyrex-S, and think that banning it would dip too low for the standards I believe should be set. That's a personal opinion of course, but I don't think it is restricting enough or strong enough in game to warrant a ban currently.

I actually see a lot of similarities there. Sun Zacian was more specific than Grass Knot Calyrex since Zacian moveslots were all very valuable imo, although not as bulky, Calyrex is an even faster threat that's straight up immune to trapping, and even the hoping for sets parts and using unviable mons I can see when you need to pray for no Grass Knot or Leech Seed or, like Quagsire, are using Zarude to help against it.

If we look at the tiering policy for Ubers, the team building skill IS greatly reduced, especially the creativity factor. It becomes obvious what your choice will be between an S rank mon, a not 100% reliable B rank, a C+ Pokémon that's not very splashable, and a core of an A mon with Regenerator + a random C rank one for 90% of your teams. You don't think about adding Yveltal to your team, you basically simply do unless you go out of your way with a team that you put into your mind that you don't use to use it. This probably has a ton of english errors since I didn't revise it and I tend to skip words when writting fast not on my native language, but hopefully it's fully understandable lol

 

[Garrett]

Eternatus is mostly just a passive Kyogre check and food for Goth.

There is no hard counter to Kyogre that isn't passive. Eternatus is the tier's premier Knock Off and Toxic Spikes (and sometimes even status) absorber, which matchups well against the NDM/Etern/Yveltal core, and is the Ubers analogue of Lando-T or Clef in OU in terms of set variety and ease of use.
100% food for Goth though if it's not Dragon Tail.

Here's why Calyrex-Shadow is on the fence for me, in my opinion:

• Best point for why it's not competitive - It can beat its best check, Yveltal, through a 50/50 which involves Trick/Astral Barrage (which probably kills every other mon on sight). Sound familiar? It's Swords Dance/Assurance 50/50's all over again with Zacian-Crowned in essence. It's more risky (and not entirely the same) in this case, but not by enough.

Some people are trigger happy and click Trick the very first time they can, and some are paranoid and wait 5-6 times before finally doing it. On the defensive end, unless you're with no will to live or win or anything dandy, you'll naturally go to said Yveltal, because you have no choice. One of these sequences you're getting tricked, and if your opponent had enough brain cells to Trick, they'll know how to keep Stealth Rock up and slowly PP stall Yveltal until it's out of Roost, or until Calyrex-Shadow forces a KO given a weakened Yveltal. It's a long winded sequence to win, but one impossible to avoid once it gets started.

If you have a Ho-oh or Blissey/Chansey to absorb the Trick as a pivot, then you've admitted a mon to be crippled for the rest of the game, which just opens the door for the rest of the team (on the Calyrex-Shadow side).

• Sand isn't a high level competitive strategy anymore; Tyranitar at this point is a psychological release from having to run Yveltal on every game.

DLC 1 has made a lot of people assume that DLC 2 sand teams could only be slightly worse than from a DLC ago. It makes no sense. Sand can now be contested by Kyogre and Groudon, and Excadrill is no longer this potent sweeper everyone feared in DLC 1 (Tangrowth/Buzzwole/Zygarde want it to switch in to heal up or set up anyway). The entire presence of Tyranitar is to be good against a specific mon which could still easily tech Grass Knot or Leaf Storm for it, and free up a Stealth Rock slot for NDM. Otherwise, it's a meme, one that should stay in Flying Economy.

The rest of the joke mons like Porygon2, Zarude, etc. express a distate for the lack of diversity of Ubers in handling Calyrex-Shadow, not really for the discovery that "we've found equally viable checks for Astral Barrage."

• Best point for why it's competitive - It can beat its best check, Yveltal, only reliably through a 50/50 which involves Trick/Astral Barrage (which probably kills every other mon on sight). Sound familiar? Well yeah I said it above. A good builder can usually throw on a secondary mon which alleviates a lot of pressure Yveltal would get from mons that lure it in (ex. Tangrowth for SD Groudon which otherwise brings Foul Play Yveltal). This way, Calyrex-Shadow only wins through a risk which costs it a serious price.

Life Orb/Focus Sash sets are not optimal as seen through my own laddering experiences. I feel like people own try out Choice-locked Calyrex-Shadow on non-HO teams is purely to surprise Yveltal, not because it's in any way better.

When comparing this to other mons like Kyogre or Zacian-H, I don't see much of a difference, and I feel like that's being ignored. Everything in ubers has minimal counterplay. That's why they're ubers in the first place, nothing reliably switches into them, and the ones that are at the top in ubers can even bypass the other ubers here to check them. Realistically, Kyogre is checked by Eternatus, Ferrothorn, Palkia, and Blissey as frequently used mons, then a few mid mons like Dialga, and niche ones like Zarude, Gastrodon, or Shedinja. This is a small list especially for what's actually being used out of these, but Kyogre doesn't have as good offensive counterplay and has more set variety arguably.

First, a lot of this discussion seems to be really entrenched in the semantics of what Ubers should or should not be housing: such really asks how broken something has to be for it to deserve an invitation to Anything Goes. This should be clarified. It's not calling anyone out, I just think it's a serious issue when council members and the highest level of tournaments players also don't know what "Ubers formally is compared to AG." I think Gen 8 Ubers is pushing for this change. People know it's strong, but no one knows how strong something has to be to get kicked out of Ubers unless it absolutely has 0 counterplay (even Zacian-Crowned took too long).

With the Kyogre thing, the difference is that Kyogre isn't sweeping the same way Calyrex-Shadow is in most games. Specs gets KO's but its speed stat balances out how it's revenge killed. Scarf is the tradeoff of being weaker, where Scarf Timid is only barely faster than Calyrex-Shadow. People can naturally play around this and it's anyone's game. Blissey and Etern are equipped for all sets, some better than others, but neither are inherently "abused" by a risky 50/50 from Kyogre.

Please quick ban Goth and then suspect Calyrex-Shadow. There's no reason to be shy about calling Suspect Tests or improving an obvious problem. Let the community make a call. Otherwise, waiting too long to fix things becomes the real problem.

 

[LBN]

First, a lot of this discussion seems to be really entrenched in the semantics of what Ubers should or should not be housing: such really asks how broken something has to be for it to deserve an invitation to Anything Goes. This should be clarified. It's not calling anyone out, I just think it's a serious issue when council members and the highest level of tournaments players also don't know what "Ubers formally is compared to AG." I think Gen 8 Ubers is pushing for this change. People know it's strong, but no one knows how strong something has to be to get kicked out of Ubers unless it absolutely has 0 counterplay (even Zacian-Crowned took too long).

With the Kyogre thing, the difference is that Kyogre isn't sweeping the same way Calyrex-Shadow is in most games. Specs gets KO's but its speed stat balances out how it's revenge killed. Scarf is the tradeoff of being weaker, where Scarf Timid is only barely faster than Calyrex-Shadow. People can naturally play around this and it's anyone's game. Blissey and Etern are equipped for all sets, some better than others, but neither are inherently "abused" by a risky 50/50 from Kyogre.

Please quick ban Goth and then suspect Calyrex-Shadow. There's no reason to be shy about calling Suspect Tests or improving an obvious problem. Let the community make a call. Otherwise, waiting too long to fix things becomes the real problem.

Going to bounce off with my own opinion here. Personally i feel that the benchmark should really be just how far you have to go out of your way to manage something beyond just 1 thing. For example, I can make allowances for things like Gastrodonfather, as it also functions as a Dracovish check if your that terrified of it, and is an solid Palkia check, which isnt in high supply. Where i draw the line is when we bring bloody Porygon2 into this. I do not care what you all say pory2 would not be in the VR if the horse ain't exist. Truly what does it even do. It's a blissey with like none of the good qualities Blissey has in checking Kyogre, Offensive Eternatus, and like most special attackers besides the Brony Rider. Other examples i'll give of "things only ran because 1 mon is dumb" to give a general idea of what i mean.

BW2 NU Gyro ball wartortle for Jynx
Gen 8 RU Tangela for Zydog
Arcanine last DLC
Gen8 OU Exploud


Let's also not lie to ourselves Zarude is also stupid. Yea you check zygarde acceptably but come on so does xerneas. Also that 252 252 spdef spread your forced to run is a painful way to use Zarude man 105 speed faster than specs kyogre and you can't even do anything with it because of Celebi's unwanted love child riding Deviantart's new pony OC. Personally i'm on the fence with the Tumblr Rider myself, but can't cap and say it's not questionable.
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zarude: 131-154 (31.7 - 37.2%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO
YOU DONT EVEN OUTHEAL IT COME ON.

I will say though that one pokemon i think has the ability to be talked about is Obstagoon, as practically every other check it has has to check it defensively, Obstagoon can be immune to both stabs and not everyone runs draining kiss, allowing you to hit something generally hard or pivot out w parting shot, which is really good. But then ppl can just put kiss on and lol.



To add to the point of argument on Gothitelle, ULT is in like 2 months. Do i need to explain how utterly vile the ladder will be to play, which already rises the national depression rate by at least 2%, Gothitelle adds like 4% off existing.

Jokes aside though Quickban goth and then test Caly-G. There is absolutely 0 valid argument you can make that proves Gothitelle is in any way healthy for a competitive tier, especially after Orch tried and literally flopped harder than Google Stadia. (You're the only one who did don't get mad at me for making an example out of you) If anyone else who likes their goth gf this valentines and wants to defend her place in this tier would like to share their thoughts to the class they are welcome to, but i think its fairly unanimous that there is truly no place for a pokemon who can remove a pokemon simply by existing to the extent goth and goth mini can. Especially not after it's buffs. I'd say more but almost all of what can be said has been said.

By the way if we ban it now can we ban in back the last 2 gens too k thx.

 

[Fc]

.

A lot of stuff here to respond to so I'll try my best to get to the main points. Seems like people feel a lot stronger about calyrex than I do for how good it is, so I'll try to get to clear up everything I meant and give my reasonings for a few things here.

Can't agree that full HO can afford to go without a check, Yveltal still appears every time on them and it also tends to either include some other form of priority or Regieleki in the case of webs teams as it's the only viable Pokémon faster than it, and even then, just looking at basically any HO team still list Calyrex as one of their biggest threats most of the time. Yveltal is an amazing mon, yes (I even voiced my opinion that it's probably Calyrex holding this thing back to actually show its true power), but not 80% usage good without the utility of making you not lose to one very specific Pokémon. Unlike say, Primal Groudon or Arceus, both Pokémon that had similar usage in the past, those had multiple roles on each team with various sets that did different stuff with some of them barely overlapping each other, while Yveltal is an auto inclusion, compared to those two, has a lot more influence from the others than its own.

I may have misspoke by saying that HO doesn't need a full check to Caly, but in terms of structure it doesn't always need something like Yveltal, and can throw on more natural ways to beat it for HO even though Yveltal is super good on those teams anyway. Screens work well at naturally beating it, and speed control / priority isn't super hard to come by for HO with things like Marshadow, possibly Urshifu, eleki like you mentioned, and just webs + something to take a scarf hit. Not a huge sample size post Zac, but the same principles around screens hold up, and while a check is still needed, HO has very few building restrictions imo.

As for the 80% usage thing, I really don't think that having to use a mon on most teams is a bad thing. This is probably something not a lot of people agree on, but beating one of the biggest offensive threats which I'd hardly call just a specific pokemon while keeping a lot of utility with knock off, uturn, roost, defog, sucker, foul play, etc. isn't something I see as too bad of a position. I don't mind restriction as long as the mon's manageable in game, which I personally think that it is. Again people differ in opinions on that, but I think a well structured team typically beats caly when played well around it. The good use of breakers is to try and get through those well structured teams though, so sometimes it can shine, I just don't think it's insane enough to be considered broken.

I think dismissing Grass Knot because it's not common due to Yveltal being largerly the choice of check for anyone is not fair because that's directly related to people not using Tyranitar. If Tyranitar becomes more common, Grass Knot is extremely easy fit there - although utility from Aromatherapy is always great, it's more a move that Calyrex can afford than a move that it needs, which is why you also see choiced sets with Nasty Plot over that slot too, something that you quite literally can't even click on some matchups since you want to keep the Choice item. This gets even worse if Nasty Plot LO starts running it, as +2 Grass Knot straight up OHKOes Tyranitar, although I guess Draining Kiss is a bit harder to remove than Aromatherapy there due to the higher vulnerability to chip damage.

I dismiss grass coverage for the most part because it's less useful than aroma in almost every case because of how much more common Yveltal is than Tyranitar. Sure if they were to close to even out in usage then Grass Knot would be a great option for removing a big check to it, but without that being a common option I think there's almost no reason to run it unless you want to specifically cteam sand or have another cleric somewhere, and even then it would still be a generally mediocre move in 8-9/10 games due to Yveltal usage.

Compared to Kyogre, I also think they aren't on the same level. Even just taking the checks that you mentioned on the VR: we start off strong with the top 1 Pokémon as the check, but them see a harsh drop to a B rank Pokémon and just on the third one we already reached the C ranks (imo Porygon2 could be a bit higher tho), with Ho-Oh also being a good A rank mon but that can't do the job by itself. Going into Kyogre tho, we also start with a S rank Pokémon in Eternatus, A on Ferrothorn, and A- on Palkia and Blissey. The drop in quality when we try to search for Calyrex checks here is clear: Kyogre you can still aford high quality Pokémon that would be used regardless, Calyrex there's only one Pokémon that you can fully say the same, with Tyranitar being a mixed bag and actually right above Dialga that you mentioned on the mid mons section for Ogre. Kyogre not having good offensively also hits me as an odd statement: I agree with that for Scarf sets, but every other set is actually better dealt with offensively than defensively due to Kyogre's below average Speed tier, and even Scarf sets are vulnerable to hazards and priority as offensive counterplay. Especially compared to Calyrex, one of offense main headaches rn, I actually think Kyogre can pretty tame when we look at both side by side. Zacian-Hero is more comparable in how limiting it is, yes, but it also comes with higher risk for each play it does due to it being always choice locked with none of its moves being as spammable as Astral Barrage and also having to deal with chip damage from Rocky Helmet and even more vulnerability to status due to burn and no Aromatherapy, although that enters more on your other point.

Seems like the Kyogre point may have been one of the worse ones I made, so just to clear up what I meant, I wanted to make the comparison that while Kyogre has more checks, it still doesn't have a ton of actually used ones and it has more set variety to break through those checks. If you bring used sp.def black sludge Eternatus for example then against webs teams specs claims a free kill, or against balance with specs ice beam is doing 65 or so, something it can't recover off safely at all. Maybe not the best comparison, but I think that the options Kyogre has are more diverse to the point where the increased number of high ranked checks balance out because of that diversity and power to break a lot of sets. Comparatively to Calyrex, I find it struggles a lot more to break just Yveltal, let alone cores like Ho-oh + Yveltal + speed control which is a completely justifiable team that would be good regardless of Caly, maybe just a slightly more offensive Yveltal.

Fair points, I left my thoughts about why I also think Zacian-H has a similar impact but not the same. Gothitelle also favours Calyrex imo by making some stuff just go more offensive instead of using hard balance builds that are too passive to beat Goth, but Yveltal is a double edged sword. As for the replays, I think some of them bring Calyrex too late where the game was basically lost anyway, although the pressure it does put still is noteworthy. For some replays that I think are worth looking into:

I'm not sure what would be going offensive enough to the point where it favours Calyrex. Personally I would very rarely if ever pair caly with goth, and the things goth pressures to run offensive sets like dusk mane and zygarde maybe doesn't benefit caly much if at all since it just naturally beats things. Goth feeds on defensive teams but the things it beats aren't ones that caly can't. Maybe in the builder something like p2 maybe be harder to throw on just in fear of goth which p2 can ideally teleport around, but I think goth doesn't impact caly much compared to a ton of other mons that it loves to help.

I actually see a lot of similarities there. Sun Zacian was more specific than Grass Knot Calyrex since Zacian moveslots were all very valuable imo, although not as bulky, Calyrex is an even faster threat that's straight up immune to trapping, and even the hoping for sets parts and using unviable mons I can see when you need to pray for no Grass Knot or Leech Seed or, like Quagsire, are using Zarude to help against it.

Even if sun Zac was more specific, I think especially with groudon being a high tier mon it was easy to justify running, much more so than Grass Knot caly. The switch ins to sun zac just didn't exist for the most part, while knot caly still has Yveltal and the other checks mentioned barring ttar. Also for comparing quagsire to Zarude, I think that Zarude has a genuine niche even outside of caly even though that's a large reason to use it, while as soon as Zacian was banned quag instantly became an unviable mon even with unaware to soft check some things. Zarude could have the same thing happen if caly were to be banned, but checking Zygarde groudon defensive dusk mane and Kyogre seems not bad for a mon.

If we look at the tiering policy for Ubers, the team building skill IS greatly reduced, especially the creativity factor. It becomes obvious what your choice will be between an S rank mon, a not 100% reliable B rank, a C+ Pokémon that's not very splashable, and a core of an A mon with Regenerator + a random C rank one for 90% of your teams. You don't think about adding Yveltal to your team, you basically simply do unless you go out of your way with a team that you put into your mind that you don't use to use it.

Looking at MW usage stats I'd argue that creativity and diversity isn't even that low, as if Zacian-C is ignored then the usage percentage distribution is similar to sm, with 2 top heavy mons, a few in the 45-65 or so range, then some 20% and diversity beyond that. I don't know if creativity in building is reason enough to consider something too much because there's a whole rest of the team that can be customized, and the high usage on every other top mon like dusk mane and etern I think is just a result of the whole meta being restrictive, where you'll struggle with a top threat no matter how you build unless the team is build in a restricted way, at least for balance and bulky offense. A lot of teams just forgo check to stuff like Zygarde or Groudon and use Yveltal for it, and I think that's just the nature of a less diverse meta for balance teams, probably due to the lack of arceus but regardless I think things will still be restricted without caly. Dusk and etern should stay at the top, Yvel will fall but be arguably more potent like you mentioned offensively due to defensive not being needed as much, and checks to other things might become even more used like ho-oh, tang, blissey, etc.

• Best point for why it's not competitive - It can beat its best check, Yveltal, through a 50/50 which involves Trick/Astral Barrage (which probably kills every other mon on sight). Sound familiar? It's Swords Dance/Assurance 50/50's all over again with Zacian-Crowned in essence. It's more risky (and not entirely the same) in this case, but not by enough.

I don't like this comparison a ton, because while it is still sometimes 50/50's, they are no where near as deadly as clicking Assurance on a dusk mane. For Zacian to beat dusk mane, it had to click assurance with rocks up and it was 2hko'd, which typically meant Zacian had no safe answers left. For caly to beat sp.def Yveltal, rocks have to go up and it has to get tricked which takes 1 more turn to do any damage already, then it has to come in on rocks multiple times as caly doubles out, since barrage doesn't 2hko after rocks without specs. Depending on how much sp.def Yvel has, it doesn't even 2hko after 2 rocks switch ins and if it gets outplayed 3 times in a row still can live after 3 rocks switch ins and force another 50/50 if it's scarf tricked or sucker. That's a lot more work for 1 kill with an easier to revenge mon than Zacian just clicking assurance and getting a 2hko. If there's a pivot like ho-oh too I don't see this working well for caly to break on its own, and ideally Yvel isn't the sole check to other huge threats like zyg or something in which case it may be broken easily, but imo that's a builder thing and not a gameplay or standard teambuilding thing.

Some people are trigger happy and click Trick the very first time they can, and some are paranoid and wait 5-6 times before finally doing it. On the defensive end, unless you're with no will to live or win or anything dandy, you'll naturally go to said Yveltal, because you have no choice. One of these sequences you're getting tricked, and if your opponent had enough brain cells to Trick, they'll know how to keep Stealth Rock up and slowly PP stall Yveltal until it's out of Roost, or until Calyrex-Shadow forces a KO given a weakened Yveltal. It's a long winded sequence to win, but one impossible to avoid once it gets started.

Not sure what this is trying to say, but I'm interpreting it as if the opponent tricks Yveltal and outplays with rocks and attacks then they'll win long term. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but that seems like a normal obvious game plan, wear down the wall with good play to get the breaker free in the end game. If they can trick, keep rocks up, and pp stall 16 roosts even with the limited 8 pp of barrage then yeah they should win, but the opponent still has a team that can apply equal pressure to not let a caly balance/bo stall long enough for 16 roosts to run out. Winning those long winded sequences is natural for breakers with good checks, I'd say similar to like toxic zyg slowly beating a tangrowth over time, it happens because the breakers are strong, but caly has a really hard time doing it imo.

If you have a Ho-oh or Blissey/Chansey to absorb the Trick as a pivot, then you've admitted a mon to be crippled for the rest of the game, which just opens the door for the rest of the team (on the Calyrex-Shadow side).

This just happens when a top mon uses trick as an option unfortunately, so while it's good I don't see it as that troubling. Similar to how pre dlc 1 lunala was arguably the best mon, it could just cripple its extremely limited number of checks mostly being just ttar and umbreon with trick. Caly may do it better, but it has sturdier checks it can't just naturally 2hko, but trick will always do this so I think it comes down to a lot of management around it.

Sand isn't a high level competitive strategy anymore; Tyranitar at this point is a psychological release from having to run Yveltal on every game.

DLC 1 has made a lot of people assume that DLC 2 sand teams could only be slightly worse than from a DLC ago. It makes no sense. Sand can now be contested by Kyogre and Groudon, and Excadrill is no longer this potent sweeper everyone feared in DLC 1 (Tangrowth/Buzzwole/Zygarde want it to switch in to heal up or set up anyway). The entire presence of Tyranitar is to be good against a specific mon which could still easily tech Grass Knot or Leaf Storm for it, and free up a Stealth Rock slot for NDM. Otherwise, it's a meme, one that should stay in Flying Economy.

I know we fully disagree on this, because I think sand is a perfectly legitimate and good strategy. It's appeared multiple times in tours (replays below) and has the potential to do well even without Zacian even though again a lack of sample size isn't great for proving points. I already mentioned above how I think grass coverage is just worse on caly, but even if it can be used sand should have natural speed control and doesn't give a ton of opportunities for caly to come in without any punishment of at least chip damage that's meaningful. Regardless of it being worse than in dlc 1 which I think isn't a super fair comparison because imo sand balance was one of it not the very best playstyle in that meta, it's still a legit team structure that can be built in many ways and can still accomplish what a normal team without weather wants to do.

Replays

[Gen 8] Ubers replay: TrueNora vs. Skysolo - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) (mw game)
[Gen 8] Ubers replay: Nalei vs. lord crucify - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) (mw game)
[Gen 8] Ubers replay: Fc04 vs. a rabbit - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) (ltpl game)

The rest of the joke mons like Porygon2, Zarude, etc. express a distate for the lack of diversity of Ubers in handling Calyrex-Shadow, not really for the discovery that "we've found equally viable checks for Astral Barrage."
Best point for why it's competitive - It can beat its best check, Yveltal, only reliably through a 50/50 which involves Trick/Astral Barrage (which probably kills every other mon on sight). Sound familiar? Well yeah I said it above. A good builder can usually throw on a secondary mon which alleviates a lot of pressure Yveltal would get from mons that lure it in (ex. Tangrowth for SD Groudon which otherwise brings Foul Play Yveltal). This way, Calyrex-Shadow only wins through a risk which costs it a serious price.

I don't think either of those mons are jokes, because while their main purpose is for caly, they aren't like something similar to quagisre where they beat borderline no other relevant offensive mons, p2 can check groudon and zygarde as can zarude which can check Kyogre to an extent also. They've been proven to work in tours (replays also below) and are good enough to where I think it's not distaste for a lack of diversity, but experimentation with options that are actually viable which increases diversity without using completely bad mons. It's usually not as optimal as just using Yveltal, but they cover a few different things for teams better so sometimes it's worthwhile using these mons.

Replays

Zarude:
[Gen 8] Ubers replay: Tony vs. Manaphy-- smog - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) (mw game)
[Gen 8] Ubers replay: reje vs. ara - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) (ltpl game where zarude did a ton but got frozen before getting 2 kills and a lot more damage)
P2:
[Gen 8] Ubers replay: JT Yao Moment vs. Catalystic - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) (mw game where it checks multiple mons)

First, a lot of this discussion seems to be really entrenched in the semantics of what Ubers should or should not be housing: such really asks how broken something has to be for it to deserve an invitation to Anything Goes. This should be clarified. It's not calling anyone out, I just think it's a serious issue when council members and the highest level of tournaments players also don't know what "Ubers formally is compared to AG." I think Gen 8 Ubers is pushing for this change. People know it's strong, but no one knows how strong something has to be to get kicked out of Ubers unless it absolutely has 0 counterplay (even Zacian-Crowned took too long).

I wanted to be transparent when discussing the topic of policy and defining ubers, because I'll admit to the fact that I don't know what it should be or what it is, because if people did know what it is definitively then there would be a bit more room to talk about if it fit a certain criteria. I haven't been around long enough to see the shift between old and new ubers with mray ban, but personally I think there has to be a line we can draw roughly, and with what I personally view as too much in the list in my first post, I don't think that caly matches up to the power that should be considered "too much" for ubers. That's highly debatable as always since there's purists on one side and people who want a varied tier for the most enjoyment on the other. I try to stay as midground as possible since I have voted ban on all the suspect tests so far and would do so for stag/goth, but would not for caly. Having a definition for tiering would help greatly, but in the post I linked about tiering which was a discussion at the end of sm, things were left uncertain about what we define the tier as and what policies we follow. But this isn't the thread for discussing tiering policies so I'll just leave it here and say I don't think caly is too much personally.

With the Kyogre thing, the difference is that Kyogre isn't sweeping the same way Calyrex-Shadow is in most games. Specs gets KO's but its speed stat balances out how it's revenge killed. Scarf is the tradeoff of being weaker, where Scarf Timid is only barely faster than Calyrex-Shadow. People can naturally play around this and it's anyone's game. Blissey and Etern are equipped for all sets, some better than others, but neither are inherently "abused" by a risky 50/50 from Kyogre.

Mentioned above how I may have been incorrect or misleading on some things wrt the ogre caly comparison, but I still think that the power ogre has and sets it has makes it come close in terms of restrictiveness and find it has an easier time breaking its checks. Etern isn't equipped for all sets, as specs can do like 60+ and webs can make spout do it instead of ice beam, and bliss does for pretty much every set but still has to choose for either hazards or specs to be the weakness it has. Both still great mons you can obviously rely on for ogre, but not complete counters.

Going to bounce off with my own opinion here. Personally i feel that the benchmark should really be just how far you have to go out of your way to manage something beyond just 1 thing. For example, I can make allowances for things like Gastrodonfather, as it also functions as a Dracovish check if your that terrified of it, and is an solid Palkia check, which isnt in high supply. Where i draw the line is when we bring bloody Porygon2 into this. I do not care what you all say pory2 would not be in the VR if the horse ain't exist. Truly what does it even do. It's a blissey with like none of the good qualities Blissey has in checking Kyogre, Offensive Eternatus, and like most special attackers besides the Brony Rider. Other examples i'll give of "things only ran because 1 mon is dumb" to give a general idea of what i mean.

As I mentioned above, p2 has other uses that make it worthwhile sometimes. Granted, it could very realistically be ur like you mentioned if caly were gone, but that's because it's outclassed at beating other things, but the checks to those other things don't beat caly. P2 can foul play don with analytic and do a ton, and can ice beam zygarde while taking minimal damage. It also is just a solid fat pivot with teleport, but for just don and zyg something like tangrowth or buzzwole is better, they just lose to caly. It's just a thing that happens naturally, if p2 had nothing to offer outside of beating caly there's 0 reason to use it because even yveltal has a pivoting move, recovery, and a stronger foul play, but it has uses outside of caly with role compression so it is used occasionally.

Hopefully I cleared up most of what I was trying to say and raised some other points in the process, but my thoughts still stand that caly is a manageable presence in the meta that has viable and reliable counterplay that can come in multiple forms of mons that are top tier as well as mid tier picks aren't complete trash outside of it.

 

[MMII]

I've seen it twice now and idk if it's actually on the table or not but quick banning goth would be a very bad idea. Quick bans in general should only be used in really extreme cases imo (like mray) cause of how important it is to have the playerbase decide what their ruleset is. It's an especially bad idea in the case of goth because of all of its prior suspect testing history in Ubers. (sorry)

 

[Fc]

Usage stats for losers R3 and R4 of SSNL. I think I'll keep it to every 2 rounds or longer for later rounds just to not flood the thread, but these are interesting regardless. I'll highlight a few things I find interesting after, but here are the raw stats.

Round 3

SSNL R3

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |   88 |  89.80% |  48.86% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   78 |  79.59% |  48.72% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   48 |  48.98% |  47.92% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   45 |  45.92% |  46.67% |
| 5    | Kyogre             |   39 |  39.80% |  51.28% |
| 6    | Xerneas            |   35 |  35.71% |  65.71% |
| 7    | Zacian             |   29 |  29.59% |  48.28% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |   22 |  22.45% |  36.36% |
| 9    | Ho-Oh              |   21 |  21.43% |  52.38% |
| 10   | Groudon            |   17 |  17.35% |  64.71% |
| 10   | Shuckle            |   17 |  17.35% |  52.94% |
| 10   | Ferrothorn         |   17 |  17.35% |  35.29% |
| 13   | Marshadow          |   15 |  15.31% |  53.33% |
| 14   | Zekrom             |   11 |  11.22% |  36.36% |
| 15   | Ditto              |   10 |  10.20% |  90.00% |
| 16   | Regieleki          |    8 |   8.16% |  62.50% |
| 16   | Blissey            |    8 |   8.16% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Lunala             |    6 |   6.12% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Giratina-Origin    |    6 |   6.12% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Palkia             |    6 |   6.12% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Urshifu-*          |    5 |   5.10% |  60.00% |
| 22   | Dracovish          |    4 |   4.08% |  75.00% |
| 22   | Landorus           |    4 |   4.08% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Gothitelle         |    3 |   3.06% |  66.67% |
| 24   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    3 |   3.06% |  66.67% |
| 24   | Tangrowth          |    3 |   3.06% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Barraskewda        |    3 |   3.06% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Dugtrio            |    3 |   3.06% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Rayquaza           |    3 |   3.06% |  33.33% |
| 30   | Lugia              |    2 |   2.04% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Pheromosa          |    2 |   2.04% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Froslass           |    2 |   2.04% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Zamazenta-Crowned  |    2 |   2.04% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Victini            |    2 |   2.04% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Excadrill          |    2 |   2.04% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Grimmsnarl         |    2 |   2.04% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Galvantula         |    2 |   2.04% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Shedinja           |    2 |   2.04% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Ribombee           |    1 |   1.02% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Magearna           |    1 |   1.02% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Magnemite          |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Cinderace          |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Tyranitar          |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Calyrex-Ice        |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Heatran            |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Landorus-Therian   |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Quagsire           |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Mew                |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Dialga             |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Zarude             |    1 |   1.02% |   0.00% |

Round 4

SSNl R4

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |  159 |  89.33% |  49.06% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |  152 |  85.39% |  53.29% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |  105 |  58.99% |  53.33% |
| 4    | Zacian             |   67 |  37.64% |  50.75% |
| 5    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   60 |  33.71% |  43.33% |
| 6    | Xerneas            |   59 |  33.15% |  50.85% |
| 7    | Kyogre             |   54 |  30.34% |  38.89% |
| 8    | Zygarde            |   44 |  24.72% |  45.45% |
| 9    | Ho-Oh              |   38 |  21.35% |  44.74% |
| 10   | Groudon            |   33 |  18.54% |  57.58% |
| 11   | Zekrom             |   32 |  17.98% |  43.75% |
| 12   | Marshadow          |   22 |  12.36% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Blissey            |   20 |  11.24% |  55.00% |
| 13   | Shuckle            |   20 |  11.24% |  45.00% |
| 15   | Lunala             |   16 |   8.99% |  75.00% |
| 15   | Regieleki          |   16 |   8.99% |  56.25% |
| 15   | Ferrothorn         |   16 |   8.99% |  43.75% |
| 15   | Ditto              |   16 |   8.99% |  37.50% |
| 19   | Tangrowth          |   15 |   8.43% |  73.33% |
| 20   | Gothitelle         |   14 |   7.87% |  57.14% |
| 21   | Grimmsnarl         |    9 |   5.06% |  55.56% |
| 22   | Rayquaza           |    7 |   3.93% |  57.14% |
| 22   | Palkia             |    7 |   3.93% |  28.57% |
| 24   | Froslass           |    6 |   3.37% |  66.67% |
| 24   | Dracovish          |    6 |   3.37% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Excadrill          |    5 |   2.81% |  80.00% |
| 26   | Urshifu-*          |    5 |   2.81% |  80.00% |
| 26   | Shedinja           |    5 |   2.81% |  80.00% |
| 26   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    5 |   2.81% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Pheromosa          |    4 |   2.25% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Slurpuff           |    4 |   2.25% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Gastrodon          |    3 |   1.69% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Tyranitar          |    3 |   1.69% |  66.67% |
| 32   | Galvantula         |    3 |   1.69% |  66.67% |
| 32   | Ribombee           |    3 |   1.69% |  66.67% |
| 32   | Aerodactyl         |    3 |   1.69% |  33.33% |
| 32   | Buzzwole           |    3 |   1.69% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Suicune            |    2 |   1.12% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Tapu Koko          |    2 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Xatu               |    2 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Amoonguss          |    2 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Landorus           |    2 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Kyurem-White       |    2 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Giratina-Origin    |    2 |   1.12% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Porygon2           |    1 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Lycanroc           |    1 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Rillaboom          |    1 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Mewtwo             |    1 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Dialga             |    1 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Zarude-Dada        |    1 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Dracozolt          |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Chansey            |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Zarude             |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Lugia              |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Reshiram           |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Azelf              |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Mew                |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Magearna           |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Kyurem-Black       |    1 |   0.56% |   0.00% |

The big 3 is still on top, but with an interesting drop in Eternatus usage to below 50% in Round 3. Shuckle and Ferrothorn usage were high though with Blissey not far behind, so an increase in HO teams with more variety in ogre checks probably led to this. It picked right back up to almost 60% the next round so it was nothing major. Yveltal sits at the top once again, with dusk mane only 10 uses behind it in R3 and 7 uses behind in R4. They're both right up there for borderline mandatory status, and their strengths are showing in their usage.


| 1 | Yveltal | 159 | 89.33% | 49.06% |
| 2 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 152 | 85.39% | 53.29% |
| 3 | Eternatus | 105 | 58.99% | 53.33% |
| 4 | Zacian | 67 | 37.64% | 50.75% |
| 5 | Calyrex-Shadow | 60 | 33.71% | 43.33% |
For the first time in the 4 rounds, Calyrex-Shadow was not right behind the 3 mentioned above in Round 4, but was 5th behind Zacian. Zacian had a higher winrate along with 7 more uses, showing that it's really adapting to the meta without the crowned version around, and is one of the biggest offensive threats the tier has to offer. It's still less splashable than the crowned version but the usage is showing it slowly go up from the start of the tour. This thing cannot be underestimated, and is working its way up the threat list very fast.
Alternatively, R4 saw Calyrex-Shadow's worst performance usage percentage wise and a slightly below average one win percentage wise. I expect this to go back up a bit in win percentage but the usage honestly may not, as the extreme Yveltal usage among other checks like Ho-oh having good usage coupled with the rise of Zacian as a breaker has led it to fall off a little bit stat wise. Still threatening as ever, but it may be facing more stiff competition as a breaker now with the meta naturally adapting to it.


| 15 | Ditto | 10 | 10.20% | 90.00% |
| 15 | Ditto | 16 | 8.99% | 37.50% |

For the second post in a row Ditto saw an insane win rate in 1 round with the other having it be lackluster. 90% is huge in R3 and was likely also helped by the Shuckle usage being higher than ever in that round so it could take on HO well. 37.5% is definitely not as great, but I just find it interesting how ditto can pop off one week, stay in the same usage rank but fall off hard in terms of win rate.


| 24 | Tangrowth | 3 | 3.06% | 33.33% |
| 19 | Tangrowth | 15 | 8.43% | 73.33% |

Tangrowth went up a ton in usage as well as win percentage from Round 3 to 4, showing just how good it is in the meta. It has a ton of utility moves with Sleep Powder, Knock Off, Leech Seed, etc. while being arguably the best pivot into CB Zacian's attacks when paired with a steel and a CC resist as well as a great check to Groudon, Zygarde, and Zekrom among other things. The usage percentage was actually higher in round 2, but it still had it's best win rate in R4 and came back big after that drop in R3.


| 24 | Gothitelle | 3 | 3.06% | 66.67% |
| 20 | Gothitelle | 14 | 7.87% | 57.14% |

Gothitelle had great rounds in terms of winrate, with it only being used 3 times in R3 but winning 2 of those, and having the highest usage percentage as well as second highest winrate behind R3 in R4. It's showing to be just as potent as ever and is higher in terms of stats from the first 2 rounds, so it's definitely something that's proving to be a problem while also being insane on paper. Ban Goth.

Once again, would like to open up discussion on these stats! While for the most part they stay similar at the top, there was a recent shake up with Zacian entering that peak and there's definitely some middle of the pack mons I didn't touch on, so those are always interesting as well. The newest community survey was also just posted, another great outlet to get input out there for the council to see about the meta.

 

[Icemaster]

Hello everyone, Shadow Tag is being suspected, be sure to participate!

 

[Fc]

Usage stats for Round 5 and 6 of seasonal as well as for LTPL post Zacian-C ban, something I forgot to add before so I'll do so now and discuss all of them. I couldn't get the replays of 1 set in round 6 fsr but nothing major.

Round 5

SSNL R5

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   64 |  82.05% |  51.56% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   63 |  80.77% |  49.21% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   51 |  65.38% |  58.82% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   33 |  42.31% |  51.52% |
| 5    | Zacian             |   28 |  35.90% |  46.43% |
| 6    | Ho-Oh              |   26 |  33.33% |  53.85% |
| 7    | Xerneas            |   23 |  29.49% |  56.52% |
| 7    | Kyogre             |   23 |  29.49% |  43.48% |
| 9    | Zygarde            |   20 |  25.64% |  45.00% |
| 10   | Groudon            |   13 |  16.67% |  38.46% |
| 11   | Zekrom             |   12 |  15.38% |  33.33% |
| 12   | Shuckle            |    9 |  11.54% |  44.44% |
| 12   | Ferrothorn         |    9 |  11.54% |  22.22% |
| 14   | Regieleki          |    8 |  10.26% |  62.50% |
| 14   | Marshadow          |    8 |  10.26% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Tangrowth          |    6 |   7.69% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Ditto              |    6 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Blissey            |    6 |   7.69% |  33.33% |
| 19   | Gothitelle         |    5 |   6.41% |  80.00% |
| 19   | Dracovish          |    5 |   6.41% |  40.00% |
| 19   | Lunala             |    5 |   6.41% |  40.00% |
| 22   | Excadrill          |    3 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Tyranitar          |    3 |   3.85% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Palkia             |    3 |   3.85% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Grimmsnarl         |    3 |   3.85% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Zarude-Dada        |    2 |   2.56% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Klefki             |    2 |   2.56% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Landorus-Therian   |    2 |   2.56% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Buzzwole           |    2 |   2.56% |  50.00% |
| 26   | Urshifu-*          |    2 |   2.56% |  50.00% |
| 26   | Arcanine           |    2 |   2.56% |  50.00% |
| 26   | Slurpuff           |    2 |   2.56% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Kyurem-White       |    2 |   2.56% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Ribombee           |    2 |   2.56% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Rayquaza           |    2 |   2.56% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Hippowdon          |    1 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Giratina-Origin    |    1 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Froslass           |    1 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Calyrex-Ice        |    1 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Melmetal           |    1 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   1.28% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Landorus           |    1 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    1 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Porygon2           |    1 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Blacephalon        |    1 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Magearna           |    1 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Pheromosa          |    1 |   1.28% |   0.00% |
| 36   | Shedinja           |    1 |   1.28% |   0.00% |

Round 6

SSNL R6

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Yveltal            |   97 |  88.18% |  49.48% |
| 2    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   87 |  79.09% |  52.87% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   66 |  60.00% |  56.06% |
| 4    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   44 |  40.00% |  59.09% |
| 5    | Zacian             |   39 |  35.45% |  51.28% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |   35 |  31.82% |  51.43% |
| 7    | Xerneas            |   33 |  30.00% |  51.52% |
| 8    | Ho-Oh              |   27 |  24.55% |  59.26% |
| 9    | Zygarde            |   26 |  23.64% |  57.69% |
| 10   | Blissey            |   17 |  15.45% |  47.06% |
| 11   | Marshadow          |   16 |  14.55% |  31.25% |
| 12   | Zekrom             |   15 |  13.64% |  46.67% |
| 13   | Tangrowth          |   14 |  12.73% |  35.71% |
| 14   | Groudon            |   13 |  11.82% |  53.85% |
| 15   | Regieleki          |   12 |  10.91% |  25.00% |
| 16   | Gothitelle         |   11 |  10.00% |  36.36% |
| 16   | Shuckle            |   11 |  10.00% |  27.27% |
| 18   | Ferrothorn         |    9 |   8.18% |  44.44% |
| 18   | Ditto              |    9 |   8.18% |  44.44% |
| 18   | Lunala             |    9 |   8.18% |  22.22% |
| 21   | Aerodactyl         |    6 |   5.45% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Urshifu-*          |    5 |   4.55% |  60.00% |
| 22   | Galvantula         |    5 |   4.55% |  40.00% |
| 22   | Shedinja           |    5 |   4.55% |  40.00% |
| 22   | Amoonguss          |    5 |   4.55% |  40.00% |
| 22   | Palkia             |    5 |   4.55% |  20.00% |
| 27   | Slurpuff           |    3 |   2.73% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Tyranitar          |    3 |   2.73% |  66.67% |
| 27   | Rayquaza           |    3 |   2.73% |  66.67% |
| 27   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    3 |   2.73% |  33.33% |
| 27   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |   2.73% |  33.33% |
| 32   | Zarude             |    2 |   1.82% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Excadrill          |    2 |   1.82% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Zarude-Dada        |    2 |   1.82% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Arcanine           |    2 |   1.82% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Mewtwo             |    2 |   1.82% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Azelf              |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Calyrex-Ice        |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Giratina-Origin    |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Dracovish          |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Toxapex            |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Dugtrio            |    1 |   0.91% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Pheromosa          |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Ribombee           |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Suicune            |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Solgaleo           |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   0.91% |   0.00% |

LTPL

Post Zacian-C LTPL Games

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   29 |  96.67% |  51.72% |
| 2    | Yveltal            |   25 |  83.33% |  44.00% |
| 3    | Eternatus          |   20 |  66.67% |  35.00% |
| 4    | Zacian             |   15 |  50.00% |  60.00% |
| 5    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   11 |  36.67% |  36.36% |
| 6    | Ho-Oh              |   10 |  33.33% |  70.00% |
| 6    | Zygarde            |   10 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Kyogre             |    9 |  30.00% |  44.44% |
| 9    | Xerneas            |    7 |  23.33% |  42.86% |
| 10   | Groudon            |    5 |  16.67% |  40.00% |
| 10   | Ferrothorn         |    5 |  16.67% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Tangrowth          |    4 |  13.33% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Blissey            |    4 |  13.33% |  75.00% |
| 12   | Zekrom             |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Grimmsnarl         |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Froslass           |    2 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Gothitelle         |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Zarude-Dada        |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Galvantula         |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Cloyster           |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Ditto              |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Tyranitar          |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Marshadow          |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Excadrill          |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Urshifu-*          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Reshiram           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Porygon2           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Lunala             |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Suicune            |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Palkia             |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |

Feel obligated to talk about these 3 and how their usage is at this point, and an interesting thing actually happened between them. For both round 5 of seasonal and the LTPL games after the Zacian-C ban, Necrozma-DM had more usage than Yveltal which I think is the first time in recent tours that Yveltal hasn't been #1 in usage. Both stats saw decent Grimmsnarl and Zarude usage with some Porygon2 and Tyranitar thrown in there and Ho-oh as always near the top so it makes a little sense that with how insane the Fariy-types are currently, namely Zacian, Necrozma-DM would pop up as the most used while Yveltal alternatives are explored.


Back to these 2 as well, and this time Calyrex-S was back on top for usage between the 2 seasonal rounds, but a decent bit below in LTPL. Still interesting how they're both right up there competing for best breaker, personally I think Zacian is generally a better mon due to how much harder it is to consistently wall since there isn't 1 individual wall that can live any 2 hits, but Calyrex-S came back in ssnl usage so it'll be interesting to see what happens as the rounds get later with less total games.


I think Zarude is quite good overall and should probably be seeing a bit more use, but it's stats aren't terrible generally. 2/2 wins in r5 and 1/2 in both r6 and ltpl shows that it's at least getting used a few times and slowly might show that it's a worth while pick due to it's quite nice traits for the general meta currently.


This mon is falling off quite hard in usage, seeing none in ltpl and r6 of ssnl. Post Zacian-C it's starting to become clear that Tangrowth may be the better physical wall for the job they try to share, so I only expect this to go downhill sadly.


Excadrill had a 100% winrate across all of these stats, showing that it still has a place and is a solid mon overall. Imo lead sets aren't the greatest of things but I do think sand is quite solid overall since it can cover a lot of mu's while maintaining an offensive presence, so I think it's something that may become more utilized as time goes on. Tyranitar didn't have 100% in all but still only ever lost 1/3 in both ssnl rounds and won the only one in ltpl, good sand team stats generally.

As rounds progress there's less and less stats to comment on so I think I'll leave it at that, and would like to know what people think generally about these! Sample size is getting more condensed and the clear mons at the top are shining but there are still some cool lesser used picks like Zarude and the sand core I like to highlight, so I want to open up more discussion once again. Left Gothitelle out of this one as it is currently being suspect tested, so thoughts on that in that thread are also quite important.

 

[Garrett]

My posts about Ubers are usually long and I think that deters people from reading so here's a shorter one. Goth's fate is settled (people with reqs know at this point what they're voting for), so I want to turn attention to our two broken hitters: Calyrex-Shadow and Zacian-H.

There's been quality essays going back and forth (Fc vs. Ropalme1914 - World War III) about Caly-S in this thread. I don't think it's "broken," but I think it saps a lot of enjoyment out of the tier. Specs Astral Barrage without question requires a Yveltal because Blissey is nuked by Psyshock.

Tangrowth + Ho-Oh is a cool core for pivoting into banded Zacian-H, but Swords Dance sets always loom and "force" an NDM. Again, Zacian's not "broken" because, quoting Patrick Star, "we have the technology [to counter Zacian]" but it feels so painful building.

I get Ubers is the highest tier that bans mons and so likely it's the strictest one to make individual cases for, but the tier is demonstrably stale. If people are ok with balance styles with few unique permutations and the sheer amount of people that have said "fuck it" and exclusively load Webs and anti-Webs to ladder, so be it; however, I'm definitely up for the idea of suspecting both so the masses can decide what the future is. If the community stays true to keeping anything that's competitive (which these are probably), I'm happy so as long as we test them.

 

[Jokler]

Been reading through the thread and it mostly seems to be about the "Big 5" being Zacian H, Calyrex SR, Yveltal, NDM, and Eternatus., the former two in particular and obliviously the mon with quite possibly most controversial mechanic ever and suspect of the hour, Gothitelle. I wanted to steer the conversation away from these huge presences and talk about some niche mons and some huge huge threats in their own right but who simply can't approach the level of the aforementioned mons.

I laddered with a screens team for the suspect test and wanted to highlight some sets that I found to be very great-

1)
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
It has one great thing for it- Calyrex S. Grimm not only checks but can switch into and proceed to set up screens in the Calyrex's face, a mon that is particularly troublesome for offense. Eternatus almost never running poison moves gives it another mon to switch into to set up free screens. Having priority on screens is amazing to especially considering the prevalence of Webs. This defensive utility is something that no other Screens Setter can replicate. Taunt is another amazing tool. I prefer Spirit Break over T Wave to 2HKO literally the most common mon in Ubers instead of being stone walled by it and also to break Calyrex's Subs. While Screens are inherently inconsistent, Grimm really gives you the best utility you can find in that role.

2)
Zekrom @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 80 HP / 108 Atk / 40 Def / 28 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
This set is absolutely incredible with Screens. The EV spread allows you to kill Zacian H at +1 after rocks and survive 2 Precipice Blades from defensive Groudon under Screens. It also avoids the 2HKO from scarfed Ice beam from Kyogre and can stall out even Adamant Orb Modest Dialga Draco Meteors. All under screens obviously.
From that you can figure out just how bulky this thing gets. After playing Ubers for a while, I noticed that the tier is not too well equipped to handle Zekrom. Most teams rely on EQ NDM as their Zekrom check and then picking it off with their priority or faster Scarfer to revenge it. This set completely flips that idea on it's head. Under screens EQ does nothing and it can very easily get the 3 DDs necessary to outspeed Scarfed Calyrex or just stay healthy enough after 2 to survive Astral Barrage. Sucker Punch, Extreme Speed and Shadow Sneak also bounce right off. Funnily enough it even switches into and sets up on Zyg, defensive T arrows not even 3HKOing and even avoids the glare that Zyg loves to throw out. Yveltal and Ho oh also run back to their pokeball on seeing Zekrom enter the field, giving it that free DD. Those are just the mons it gets quite safe set up vs but it can grab that policy boost even vs Eternatus, Xern, Goudon, Dialga etc. Those are not the ideal scenarios but in a tight game getting those clutch kills could be game changing.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1301222790-krayvecec3g0kn7cxyloo8goefue79fpw This battle right here showed this scenario in full effect. If you read the chat you can see that our immensely knowledgeable opponent here very selflessly pointed out for the benefit of "bad players" like us that, this was an "unwillable" match up for him, which I don't agree with but after Zekrom set up, he could really only go for Hax. This was only one of the examples of Zekrom sweeping. I have a lot of replays with different scenarios where Zekrom set up. For some reason even when I almost got the required reqs, I was facing still facing 1300s players but I will be glad to share those replays as well if you want.

3)
Calyrex-Ice @ Weakness Policy
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Atk / 80 Def / 52 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower
- Swords Dance

This is another mon that absolutely becomes busted under screens. It is already very fat naturally but under screens it is ridiculous. This EV spread OHKOes the standard Ho-oh at+2. This thing has absolutely disgusting bulk. It is barely 3HKOed by SunSteel strike from defensive NDMs. It chews Specs Astral Barrage, Water Spout. Heck it even shrugs off Yveltal's Super Effective Dark Aura boosted attacks and Shadow Sneak bounces right off.
For the most part, it is overshadowed by it's ghost type counterpart but on this team it helped immensely against 2 problem matchups for offense, Webs and Ditto. There have been so many battles in which it just set up TR near end game killed 3-4 mons. With how prevalent Webs are rn ( Shuckle is top 15 usage in Ubers with Slurpuff also making top 40), having such a great check to them for offensive teams is a godsend.
It follows the same principle of setting up on NDM, most team's go to check for Calyrex Ice. It bad defensive typing really works well for it here because it easily gets it's policy activated. Literally the top 5 mons in Ubers, all can activate it.
I think this iteration is particularly good on Calryex-Ice because the opponent is caught in a catch 22 situation. It they use supereffective moves on it, it can snowball like nothing else with TR and WP and if they don't, then it literally takes nothing from other attacks and SDs and TRs to do the exact same thing.



Azelf is really not a mon I would rank as even having a niche in the Ubers meta game. I only used it because it has taunt + Stealth rocks with decent speed. It can force shuckle to only get up one hazard or even non against red card variants and it also completely denies NDM, Groudon and Dialga from getting up rocks. It can also knock off Yveltal and Ho-oh, two very common defoggers. Really though, that is where the good things I can say about it end. It struggled mightily against other leads such as magic coat slurpuff, Exca, etc. Very average mon.

NDM and Yveltal are the part of the "big 5" as I mentioned before. NDM is basically the face of Weakness Policy abuse and is just an incredible, incredible mon overall. As Fc pointed out Yveltal is indeed amazing despite it being near mandatory. No need to say much more for these two. We all already know about these two.


In closing I would definitely encourage everyone to give these sets a shot. I know mons are not exactly under the radar but still I feel they should be talked about a bit more.

 

[SiTuM]

Azelf is really not a mon I would rank as even having a niche in the Ubers meta game. I only used it because it has taunt + Stealth rocks with decent speed. It can force shuckle to only get up one hazard or even non against red card variants and it also completely denies NDM, Groudon and Dialga from getting up rocks. It can also knock off Yveltal and Ho-oh, two very common defoggers. Really though, that is where the good things I can say about it end. It struggled mightily against other leads such as magic coat slurpuff, Exca, etc. Very average mon.

azelf is indeed really bad. it loses against any HO lead:
shuckle just uses its mental herb, aero is faster and just taunts, slurpuff has magic coat + unburden makes it faster if you knock it, galvantula is a 50/50 between webs and thunder, accelgor is faster and drill has spin.

i really wouldnt recommend using this lead to anyone. if you want a fast lead with taunt, aero is very probably what you search for.

on another note,

3)
Calyrex-Ice @ Weakness Policy
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Atk / 80 Def / 52 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower
- Swords Dance

i totally agree with the fact that calyrex-ice is an incredible mon, but i definitely think any take on trick room is sadly useless. caly-ice needs way too many turns to set up, and so to be in a correct position to sweep, otherwise there are a lot of mons that can prevent it from sweeping, particularly ho-oh, defensive ogre and defensive lunala.

i also encourage everyone, not testing jokler's sets, sadly (even if i think wp zekrom is a cool idea), but to try and be a little more creative in your building. using yveltal + dm + eternatus is good, but it's incredibly boring, and we're jumping into the same kind of shitty meta like in usm, where you could pdon + mag + yveltal and win any kind of matchup you wanted. i wont give any ideas, as i'm still in ssnl and i'm cooking some fire, but please, innovate.

 

[JT Yao]

azelf is indeed really bad. it loses against any HO lead:
shuckle just uses its mental herb, aero is faster and just taunts, slurpuff has magic coat + unburden makes it faster if you knock it, galvantula is a 50/50 between webs and thunder, accelgor is faster and drill has spin.

i really wouldnt recommend using this lead to anyone. if you want a fast lead with taunt, aero is very probably what you search for.

on another note,



i totally agree with the fact that calyrex-ice is an incredible mon, but i definitely think any take on trick room is sadly useless. caly-ice needs way too many turns to set up, and so to be in a correct position to sweep, otherwise there are a lot of mons that can prevent it from sweeping, particularly ho-oh, defensive ogre and defensive lunala.

i also encourage everyone, not testing jokler's sets, sadly (even if i think wp zekrom is a cool idea), but to try and be a little more creative in your building. using yveltal + dm + eternatus is good, but it's incredibly boring, and we're jumping into the same kind of shitty meta like in usm, where you could pdon + mag + yveltal and win any kind of matchup you wanted. i wont give any ideas, as i'm still in ssnl and i'm cooking some fire, but please, innovate.

I wanted to directly address this post because SiTuM brings up a point that I'd like to address and go deeper into.

For better or worse, right now, the state of SS Ubers is very stale at best. And this is putting it *really* nicely. As I mentioned in the Gothitelle Suspect Thread, there exists a metaphorical chain that wraps around the tier and forces almost every team to run the same permutation of mons. And while you can opt to deviate from the above permutations by running innovative or niche sets, they will almost certainly lose to some standard permutation of teams. The Sample Teams, for better or worse, are among some of the best teams in the tier. Unfortunately, that really isn't saying much. And it's not the fault of the builders or the Ubers Council. It's the fact that this tier leaves very little room for creativity due to the ubiquitous omnipresence of three unhealthy links of the chain I mentioned earlier. Thankfully, Shadow Tag is being suspected right now, but the other two links (Calyrex-S and Zacian-H), will eventually have to be looked at before anyone can start innovating something amazing.

As for innovation, there are two sets I'd like to examine. The first of which is my own, and admittedly is not very optimal. But hey, that's the price I'm willing to pay for to innovate in this tier!



Calyrex-Shadow @ Life Orb
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Astral Barrage
- Hyper Beam

In my opinion, this Calyrex-S is set is the one that fits best on Webs builds. Sub Nasty Plot Calyrex-S gets plenty of chances to set up, and can lure in Yveltal. Once it is behind a Substitute and achieves a +2 Special Attack boost by virtue of Nasty Plot, Calyrex-S can potentially OHKO a Max/Max Yveltal, if it is running Modest Nature. Of course, a Timid Nature can be used if you're worried about losing Speed Ties in the scenario that Webs aren't up, but where's the fun in that?

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 406-478 (89.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 441-520 (106.2 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Hyper Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 649-764 (99.5 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Rest In Peace Special Walls. And yes, if Blissey doesn't have Shadow Ball, just set up to +6 on its face and OHKO it. As my dear friend and esteemed colleague BasedWhat? would say (or at least probably think), "Stunt on these Hoes!" Most Yveltal don't run both Sucker Punch and Snarl, so obviously using this set requires a fair bit of prediction. Still, this is the closest thing I could get to making Calyrex-S actually good on Webs. I'm saying this because Sash Calyrex-S is arguably just as shitty as Sash Marshadow.




Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 80 HP / 220 Atk / 112 Def / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Scale Shot
- Thousand Waves
- Rest

Meet the most potent Zygarde set in the current metagame. This is not an original set; I first saw this set way back when DLC2 dropped around the end of October/early November. At that time, steelskitty and Zesty43 were using this set, and I now realize the appeal to it. By deceiving your opponent into thinking this is just a Defensive Coil Zygrade, you can essentially have opportunities to trap many passive defensive threats ranging from Necrozma Dusk Mane, Ferrothorn and Tangrowth, to more offensive threats like Groudon and opposing Zygarde. Once you trap with Thousand Waves, the way this set works is to Coil up to +6 Attack and then proceed to Scale Shot. Scale Shot is an inherently weak move, which is why this set needs as much Attack investment as possible. Thankful, at +6 Attack, Zygarde-C can practically OHKO every relevant threat in the tier (bar very, very bulky threats which I won't bother listing). The HP investment allows Zygarde-C to tank up to 5 Grass Knots from Tangrowth once it has transformed, courtesy of Leftovers and Zygarde-C having gigantic HP. The Defense investment allows Zygarde-C to better handle Defensive Dragon Dance variants of Necrozma Dusk Mane, as well as Defensive Swords Dance variants of Groudon. Finally, 96 Speed EVs is all you need to outspeed Timid Scarf Kyogre at +2 Speed. I've found through plenty of testing that this Zygade set pairs the best with Specs Calyrex-S on Balance builds. Truly an innovative set if I've ever seen one, and major props to steelskitty and Zesty43 for discovering it!

That's all for now folks! I'll hopefully post some more unique and interesting/innovative sets once this meta resolves and isn't a stale end piece of white bread (props if you got the Ed, Edd n' Eddy reference). Have a great day everyone!

Edit: Added the link to the video I made a reference to before!

 

[Jokler]

I read this reply and wanted to break this down-

azelf is indeed really bad. it loses against any HO lead:
shuckle just uses its mental herb, aero is faster and just taunts, slurpuff has magic coat + unburden makes it faster if you knock it, galvantula is a 50/50 between webs and thunder, accelgor is faster and drill has spin.

i really wouldnt recommend using this lead to anyone. if you want a fast lead with taunt, aero is very probably what you search for.

on another note,

Now, I already mentioned in my post about the limits of this particular Azelf's viability, how it struggles with other leads and the only role it was expected to perform. So you really didn't have to make this post in the first place. But you made it anyway and there were some things that stood out to me. You say that "shuckle just uses its mental herb, aero is faster and just taunts, slurpuff has magic coat + unburden makes it faster if you knock it, galvantula is a 50/50 between webs and thunder, accelgor is faster and drill has spin." but does that not apply to aero as well? I mean sure aero speed ties aero but the rest is exactly the same for both. Drill will still spin on it, Accelgor is faster than both and oh yeah, Shuckle still has the mental herb against both. If your entire argument is aero has defog for opposing hazards then Azelf also has Magic coat which helps as much if not more.
I am not saying aero is unviable or Azelf is super viable but what I am saying is that both are niche leads that CAN work in Ubers. You really can't make a case for either being strictly better. You run what your team benefits more from. I didn't run Magic Coat because I benefited more from knock. There is not right or wrong here.

i totally agree with the fact that calyrex-ice is an incredible mon, but i definitely think any take on trick room is sadly useless. caly-ice needs way too many turns to set up, and so to be in a correct position to sweep, otherwise there are a lot of mons that can prevent it from sweeping, particularly ho-oh, defensive ogre and defensive lunala.

Now, this is just plain wrong. TR is DEFINITELY not "sadly useless". It is the easily the most common Calyrex Ice set used (76% according to Pikalytics), and for good reason. Offence is know to run rampant in Ubers and Ditto has fair usage too and having a tool this powerful to turn the tables on them is invaluable. TR, while niche, is also a difficult matchup for offence, again improved by Calyrex. You say that it requires many turns to set up for it to sweep but it only requires the one to set up TR against something it can get policy activated into chilling neigh or maximum two if it plans on SDing into TR. With it's near Giratina level bulk, that scenario is not exactly difficult to come by either. As to it not being in a correct position to sweep and the mons you mentioned, there are always going to be checks to every mon. You don't expect to sweep with Zygarde until their Buzzwole is alive. Calyrex is not supposed to sweep turn 1. It is supposed to clean up offence or break open a team depending on what you require from it. Calyrex at the very LEAST can create dangerous pins for your opponents, one of their mons falls so Calyrex's teammates are that much more closer to overwhelming them and it usually does a lot more. Secondly, even the mons that you mentioned are fundamentally flawed in checking Calyrex Ice.

i)
Firstly, defensive Ho-oh absolutely doesn't stop it as I already mentioned in the original post -

+2 128+ Atk Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 415-489 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you SD on the switch, Ho-oh is already in OHKO range, from there you can either TR against Sacred Fire or Lance against Whirlwind. even if you get burned in the former scenario, then you can weaken it to highly exploitable levels for your teammates like NDM. Also this is the absolute best case scenario for your opponent. If you set up TR against something that can prop the weakness policy, Ho-oh is toast.

ii)
Defensive Ogre is extremely rare in the current meta game. According to Pikalytics, more than 70% are choiced so-

+2 128+ Atk Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

and even if they ARE defensive then -

+2 128+ Atk Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Kyogre Scald vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Calyrex-Ice in Rain through Light Screen: 71-84 (17.6 - 20.8%) -- 75.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

You easily beat them 1v1, even if you do get burned, then still yet again you weaken it for NDM or Zygarde or something in the back.

iii)
As for Lunala-

+2 128+ Atk Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 283-333 (59.2 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even if they wisp, they still get 2HKOed and hexxing means propping the policy. You can't even roosts stall it. Yet again it can only beatCalyrex if it was facing it 1v1 but not proceed to switch in and beat it. Perhaps you may even have propped it's shield before. Not to mention only 40% of the Lunalas are Boots.

This was just some little tidbits I thought I would mention but these scenarios are rare. You get your policy + TR combo easily against the mons with extremely high usage like Eternatus, Yveltal, etc. You can get it up against Offence and this set is custom made specifically to set up on NDM. These are almost omnipresent in Ubers. It is hard to call it useless when it is so good against the general meta game. Even against it's worst matchups it is still able to accomplish something of note as I highlighted above.
Last thing to mention here is that a lot of times, it doesn't even need the +2. Get up TR against a mon in neutral Lance range against a weakened team and a +1 is enough to sweep. It should not be forgotten that it's 165 base attack with 130 bas power stab is still ridiculously powerful at neutral let alone +1. My point is it has way to many options to get that set up that you mention for it to sweep.

You didn't actually say which set is that you consider to be incredible either. You just called this one useless.

i also encourage everyone, not testing jokler's sets, sadly (even if i think wp zekrom is a cool idea), but to try and be a little more creative in your building. using yveltal + dm + eternatus is good, but it's incredibly boring, and we're jumping into the same kind of shitty meta like in usm, where you could pdon + mag + yveltal and win any kind of matchup you wanted. i wont give any ideas, as i'm still in ssnl and i'm cooking some fire, but please, innovate.

This was the one that seemed the most odd to me. You encourage everyone to not test my sets and be creative but this is literally THE thread for Set discussion, it's even in the name. People come here to get ideas and get a glimpse of what is being innovated. If you dislike that (I don't know why though?, there is nothing wrong with people exchanging ideas and discussing what they enjoy), then, honesty, I don't mean to me rude, you shouldn't even be in this thread.

You say that using Eternatus, NDM and Yveltal is boring but the thing is, while I don't agree that using them is boring, if you read the first line I very clearly said that mons other than the big 5 deserve to be discussed as well. I have actually shared the sets of other mons and not the ones you call, "boring". Why even ask people to be innovative and when they do share innovative sets, ask people not to use them?


You also outright reject other sets as being "bad" by very generic explanations that absolutely don't paint a clear picture of their role in the meta game. Others you reject by calling "boring" and last bunch you simply reject on account of being more creative. In a way you have restricted yourself more than anyone else. Restricting yourself so much is the complete opposite of being creative that you preach about.

The 3 that you mention IMO, don't really restrict creativity but allow it to blossom as with such a solid core, you can confidently run unconventional picks. They directly also encourage creativity because they all can all run like 10 different sets.

Lastly, the thing that gets me the most is that your post simply didn't try to contribute anything meaningful to the discussion. You very clearly mockingly belittle everything I said in my post with the most generic obvious shortcomings of mons which absolutely don't reflect their viability. Secondly, you don't make any arguments for your own claims. you say TR Caly is bad but then fail to mention any better set. You say that the NDM and friends core is boring but you don't suggest any alternative cores. I can understand your position that being in ssnl, you can't reveal your team but in that case either you don't make an argument if you can't back it up or you be willing to share at least something may it be old teams or something. Your post was clearly meant out of malice and didn't even try to be remotely constructive. I don't know what ill-will you have with a person over internet that you literally haven't seen before just then let alone meet them but I guess you must have your own reasons.

Well, I personally have no ill-will against you and if it seemed rude to you, then please forgive me. I just wanted to just set the record straight about somethings that you had said that I thought were misleading. Now, I hope you and all the others that read this have a wonderful.
Good day to you kind sir and good day to all the lads.