Metagame Ubers teambuilding discussion

#1
[Art is pending but you do know me by now]
Introduction: At times, building teams can be frustrating. With generations of powercreep, there seems to be many small intricacies and implicit micro-rules educated players follow when making teams. As an example some players tend talk about having "two Primal Groudon checks per team". There are many more of these these anecdotes flying around, with people being in agreement or disagreement variably depending on the topic. No one has really tried make this resource explicit (definition: explained to formal degree). In no way should the results of this project be interpreted as rules- but rather guidelines. Things tend to change with introduction of new sets, an example being how ORAS Wisp+Protect Gengar serves as a much more reliable check to Arceus-Normal than previous non-protect non-wisp variants, and the consequence leads to a new interpretation of what would suffice are "solid enough" checking prowess against this threat.

Purpose: The purpose of this thread is to discuss matters related to the research questions below. It is a SM Ubers thread but making the occasional backwards reference is OK. As for the results, a comprehensible, consensus-based summary of ways to operationalize choices in building so that people can take part of the results to seamlessly integrate into their own teams.

Research questions for discussion:
1. Handling offensive threats: How would a check-list for Ubers look?
- What is to be included?
- What can be bundled together (think for example in terms of typing resists lumping together several Pokémon that essentially are handled all the same)?
- How does a check list differ depending on the degree of offensive/defensive style of a team?
- Where must we stop generalizing?

[Short example answer]: "In descending order I think every team needs 2 Geomancy Xerneas checks, 1 Fire resist, 1 Ground immunity. However, offensive teams tend to get away with only having Primal Groudon as its Geomancy Xerneas check. I define the degree of offense as [through explanation on view offensiveness]... This is because Marshadow or other priority users tend to pick off a weakened Xerneas reliably. I think we cannot generalize a list further than this because there is are too many minor differences between styles"

2. Playing the hazard game: What are some notable "rules" of the game?
- What entry hazards does a team need and when?
- What teams need hazard support and in which forms does this take?
- How can one balance the tradeoff in using hazard weak Pokémon? What is an acceptable limit of stacking SR weaknesses?
- How do different styles of teams differ in playing the hazard game?
- Where must we stop generalizing?

[Short example answer]: "Every team needs Stealth Rock. When a team only uses Stealth Rock I think Defog is a must. However, in order to support Defogers, especially Arceus-formes, you generally want a cleric.

3. Synergy/strategy: What are some ways one can win a game?
- This is an open ended question that should discuss when a defensive mindset is detrimental to actually getting anything done. Is it acceptable to build a team with neither a truly offensive nor stally approach that covers everything on paper but has trouble threatening things? To what extent is passivity a thing when stall is a prominent playstyle and is based around being passive? What do we mean when we are so negatively inclined towards passivity then?

I will also point out that, posting cores and stuff is probably not the purpose of this thread. Yeah, it might seem silly but this question in specific is a more theoretical discussion.

4. Extra thoughts: Anything else you feel strongly about? Is there a need for more research questions? I'm not a fan of spending too much time on writing the perfect OP so you'll have to fill in the blanks. Hopefully you get the point of this thread and we can work together from there.

Debating in a civil manner over posts made by other people is also encouraged. That is all.
 
#2
1. Handling offensive threats: How would a check-list for Ubers look?
- What is to be included?
- What can be bundled together (think for example in terms of typing resists lumping together several Pokémon that essentially are handled all the same)?
- How does a check list differ depending on the degree of offensive/defensive style of a team?
- Where must we stop generalizing?
So I guess I will take a stab at this question, I think the checklist for dealing with offensive threats in Ubers looks something like the following and I'll organize them in "tiers" of importance:

MOST IMPORTANT:
A Geo Xern Check (3 Attacks), a Z-Geo Xern Check, a Primal Groudon Check (Both Double Dance and Special RP), a Ground Immunity or hard resist

VERY IMPORTANT:
Fairy resists, Ghost and Dark resists, a way of dealing with Marshadow consistently, Hazard Removal, Flying Resist, answer to Support Arc, answer to SD Arceus forms

IMPORTANT:
Priority of some sort, answer to Specs Xern, answer to CM Arceus forms, answer to Jolly Primal Groudon, answer to Primal Kyogre (Both defensive and offensive), some way to break Zygarde-C

Although some of these are not strictly defensive, they are in a sense, since losing to Resttalk Pogre and Zygarde-C is an issue that comes with being unable to switch in offensive threats to them reliably as they easily get chipped without putting enough pressure etc. But this is generally a checklist that I would use to build teams, however each category can be filled out in different ways depending on the team. For example, on some teams you might want to run Primal Groudon and Marshadow, this would allow you to check off 5 of the things on the list, Geo Xern Check, Z-Geo Check, Fairy Resist, SD Arc answer and JollyDon answer. This could be an approach that HO Teams take to this list, while a bulky offense team could opt to use a pokemon like Aegislash, which checks off loosely 5 of the criteria, since it checks Geo Xern, Z-Geo, answer Support Arc, and offers a Flying and Fairy resist, however you should also keep in mind that when looking at this, it is only a soft answer to Flying mons like MMence and Rayquaza and doesnt answer to popular Groundceus, as such you would need additional mons to completely check these off the list. Another option teams can take with tackling setup sweepers like Xern and whatnot, is essentially having no mons that they can "freely" set up on, then utilize priority to finish off these big threats, for example on a team that looks like Excadrill/Yveltal/Xerneas/Arceus-N/Marshadow/Primal-Groudon, you could potentially have a problem with Xerneas if your PDon is offensive, but if Yveltal was to use Flyinium Z then Xern has no mon that it can freely set up on as it takes a lot of damage and punishment from every mon. Of course, its very difficult and also not necessary to have everything on this list, as offensive teams do not need Hazard Removal while stall teams do not need Priority of some sort. Of course adapt the list to your own use because it is not always possible to fill out every part of this list, and some things take higher priority depending on the team. My opinion on building is that you should approach building with an idea, then look at what that idea accomplishes, then look at what it struggles with, then try to fill in the most glaring gaps in it.

I might answer the other questions later, but this is my opinion on the checklist of Ubers.
 
#3
The hazard game is the most important part of teambuilding in my opinion. The metagame is warped around hazards to an extreme degree.

The key concept that I use is "durability" (the length of hazards stay up). If you use offense, then you must use taunt or/and brute force to be durable. If you use bulky offense, then your SR setter must be durable combined with brute force durability. If you use balance, then your SR setter must be durable along with status and anti-cleric control. Stall must be NOT durable.

Stall is an interesting case, since you primarily win through outlasting your opponent and hazards limits the length of the game. So, in stall teambuilding, it's better to be anti-hazards as possible even at expense of your own hazards. You must be not durable until you beat their hazard setters, then you may set your hazards.

Just some quick thoughts.
 

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