Ugly Babies: The UnderUsed of Little Cup

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Antar

Antar

is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Top Programmer Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
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It gives me great joy to announce that LC UU is now a playable format with a searchable ladder on Pokemon Showdown (pending a server restart)!

In the interests of getting this party rolling, this post will be rather spartan for now, but I'll flesh this out with flair in the coming days.

This is the banlist:
Abra, Aipom, Archen, Bellsprout, Bunnelby, Carvanha, Chinchou, Corphish, Cottonee, Cranidos, Croagunk, Diglett, Drilbur, Dwebble, Ferroseed, Fletchling, Foongus, Gastly, Honedge, Houndour, Larvesta, Lileep, Magnemite, Mienfoo, Misdreavus, Munchlax, Onix, Pawniard, Ponyta, Porygon, Scraggy, Snubbull, Spritzee, Staryu, Timburr, Tirtouga, Trubbish, Vullaby, Vulpix, Zigzagoon

Also, as of Semptember 10, Omanyte is LC BL and is also banned from the tier.

Here's an approximate threatlist based on Little Cup stats:
Code: 
| 41   | Elekid             |  3.242% |
| 42   | Clamperl           |  3.226% |
| 43   | Omanyte            |  3.140% |
| 44   | Hippopotas         |  3.136% |
| 45   | Shellder           |  3.017% |
| 46   | Taillow            |  2.978% |
| 47   | Torchic            |  2.965% |
| 48   | Slowpoke           |  2.825% |
| 49   | Froakie            |  2.548% |
| 50   | Riolu              |  2.499% |
| 51   | Surskit            |  2.378% |
| 52   | Frillish           |  2.325% |
| 53   | Koffing            |  2.293% |
| 54   | Inkay              |  2.236% |
| 55   | Stunky             |  2.168% |
| 56   | Aron               |  2.095% |
| 57   | Mantyke            |  2.011% |
| 58   | Anorith            |  1.965% |
| 59   | Natu               |  1.941% |
| 60   | Darumaka           |  1.924% |
| 61   | Lickitung          |  1.841% |
| 62   | Drifloon           |  1.815% |
| 63   | Axew               |  1.751% |
| 64   | Growlithe          |  1.704% |
| 65   | Doduo              |  1.620% |
| 66   | Sandshrew          |  1.617% |
| 67   | Magby              |  1.610% |
| 68   | Pineco             |  1.549% |
| 69   | Machop             |  1.537% |
| 70   | Tentacool          |  1.520% |
| 71   | Duskull            |  1.513% |
| 72   | Gothita            |  1.496% |
| 73   | Bulbasaur          |  1.451% |
| 74   | Meowth             |  1.447% |
| 75   | Cubone             |  1.444% |
| 76   | Bronzor            |  1.443% |
| 77   | Purrloin           |  1.434% |
| 78   | Eevee              |  1.385% |
| 79   | Tyrunt             |  1.327% |
| 80   | Snover             |  1.326% |
| 81   | Phantump           |  1.265% |
| 82   | Wailmer            |  1.191% |
| 83   | Wooper             |  1.190% |
| 84   | Zorua              |  1.150% |
| 85   | Dratini            |  1.136% |
| 86   | Spinarak           |  1.089% |
| 87   | Buneary            |  1.067% |
| 88   | Cacnea             |  1.020% |
 
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The Little Cup UU community is likely to be so small that it doesn't really make sense to have a suspect council--competitive players should easily be able to make their voices heard simply by posting in this thread. As for policy decisions (mainly, the formation of a "borderline" banlist), they will be handled exclusively by me.

That is to say,

All hail Czar Antar I, long may he rain.​

I will be a benevolent tyrant--if I make a decision you disagree with, feel free to be vocal about it. The gulags will be reserved exclusively for people who question the cuteness of the Almighty Inkay.

686Inkay.png

Those of you who know me from other suspect discussions know that my ban philosophy is that banlists should be minimal--only Pokemon that are truly broken are likely to be banned by me.

"Suspect tests" will be handled in the following way: if you think something should be banned, make a team that uses the Pokemon and climb to the top of the ladder. If you can make it into the top 5 and you can show me five replays of you winning against good players, largely because of the broken Pokemon, then I will strongly consider the ban.

(I'll likely consider it even if you're just complaining that something's broken, but I like strong evidence)

Feel free to PM/VM me to ask any questions about this policy.
 
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LC UU Speed Tiers​
By Yagura (kind of stolen from Ray Jay \o/)

Introduction
As Pokemon in Little Cup are at level 5, there is a narrower range of Speed stats that are present than in Smogon’s other metagames, and this often makes the decision of whether or not to maximize the Speed stat a far more difficult one. Furthermore, Pokemon with a variety of base Speed stats sometimes reach the same maximum Speed due to the fact that it takes more than 4 EVs to increase the stat by one point. Below, you will find each Speed stat that LC Pokemon are capable of reaching, along with how many EVs the Pokemon needs to acquire that stat.

Tier 1 (33 - 40 Spe)

Speed Stat / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature / EVs / Boost
38 / Buizel / 85 / + Speed / 236 / +2
36 / Buizel / 85 / Neutral / 236 / +2
... / Anorith, Deerling / 75 / Neutral / 236 / +2
34 / Drifloon / 70 / + Speed / 196 / +2
... / Surskit / 65 / + Speed / 236 / +2

Analysis: Tier 1 is reserved for Pokemon that reach the highest stats of practical importance in Little Cup. All of these with the exception of Deerling have their Speed doubled by their ability under certain conditions. These Pokemon are, for the most part, very frail, and typically handled through strong priority attacks.

Tier 2 (26 - 32 Spe)
... / Kabuto / 55 / + Speed / 236 / +2
30 / Elekid / 95 / + Speed / 236 / +1
... / Horsea / 60 / Neutral / 196 / +2
... / Venipede / 57 / Neutral / 220 / +2
... / Kabuto / 55 / Neutral / 236 / +2
28 / Elekid / 95 / Neutral / 236 / +1
... / Taillow / 85 / + Speed / 236 / +1
... / Binacle, Dratini, Mantyke / 50 / Neutral / 196 / +2
... / Exeggcute, Shellder / 40 / + Speed / 196 / +2
... / Cherubi, Golett, Omanyte / 35 / + Speed / 236 / +2
27 / Taillow / 85 / Neutral / 236 / +1
26 / Exeggcute, Shellder / 40 / Neutral / 196 / +2
... / Cherubi, Golett, Omanyte / 35 / Neutral / 236 / +2
... / Clamperl / 32 / + Speed / 180 / +2
... / Aron, Oddish, Petilil / 30 / + Speed / 196 / +2
... / Rhyhorn / 25 / + Speed / 236 / +2

Analysis: Tier 2 is mostly composed of slower Pokemon that can quickly elevate their Speed (Shellder, Omanyte) and the rest of the Pokemon have an ability that doubles their Speed in certain weather conditions. This tier is mostly important for finding the maximum stat each of these Pokemon can hit; most of the time, however, weather sweepers or Shell Smash sweepers opt to use a nature that boosts Attack or Special Attack, as the only things that can outspeed them are typically other set-up sweepers. It is worthy of noting that 19 Speed Pokemon such as Buizel, when equipped with Choice Scarf, can at least Speed tie with a good majority of these Pokemon, even when the latter are at +2.

Tier 3 (19 - 25 Spe)
25 / Froakie / 71 / + Speed / 188 / +1
... / Mankey / 70 / + Speed / 196 / +1
... / Cyndaquil / 65 / + Speed / 236 / +1
24 / Axew / 57 / + Speed / 220 / +1
... / Clamperl / 32 / Neutral / 180 / +2
... / Aron, Oddish, Petilil / 30 / Neutral / 196 / +2
... / Rhyhorn / 25 / Neutral / 236 / +2
22 / Axew / 57 / Neutral / 220 / +1
... / Bagon, Darumaka, Dratini / 50 / + Speed / 196 / +1
... / Amaura / 46 / + Speed / 228 / +1
... / Gothita, Inkay, Torchic / 45 / + Speed / 236 / +1
21 / Bagon, Darumaka, Dratini / 50 / Neutral /196 / +1
... / Amaura / 46 / Neutral / 228 / +1
... / Gothita, Inkay, Torchic / 45 / Neutral / 236 / +1
... / Larvitar / 41 / + Speed / 188 / +1
... / Shellder, Snover, Teddiursa / 40 / + Speed / 196 / +1
... / Machop / 35 / + Speed / 236 / +1
20 / Voltorb / 100 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Elekid, / 95 / + Speed / 236 / None
19 / Elekid, / 95 / Neutral / 236 / None
... / Meowth, Poliwag / 90 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Buneary, Buizel, Glameow, Wingull / 85 / + Speed / 236 / None
... / Magby / 83 / + Speed / 252 / None

Analysis: This tier represents the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier and what other Pokemon hit in their attempts to outspeed them. There are two Pokemon that can actually outspeed all of these unboosted as they hit 20 Speed, 21 is therefore the minimum stat for a Choice Scarf Pokemon to hit if it wants to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. Many of the Pokemon above at +1 are listed as they are commonly seen with a Choice Scarf, due to their effectiveness in handling the 19 Speed Pokemon or for revenge killing anything else in the tier that does not boost Speed.

Tier 4 (15 - 18 Spe)
18 / Blitzle / 76 /+ Speed / 228 / None
... / Anorith, Deerling, Doduo, Minccino / 75 / + Speed / 236 / None
... / Stunky / 74 / + Speed / 244 / None
17 / Litleo, Rattata, Woobat / 72 / + Speed / 180 / None
... / Froakie / 71 / + Speed / 188 / None
... / Combee, Drifloon, Helioptile, Mankey, Natu, Spearow, Treecko / 70 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Espurr / 68 / + Speed / 212 / None
... / Finneon, Purrloin / 66 / + Speed / 228 / None
... / Charmander, Cyndaquil, Electrike, Finneon, Joltik, Remoraid, Sandile, Skorupi, Smoochum, Surskit, Zorua / 65 / + Speed / 236 / None
... / Pansage, Pansear, Panpour / 64 / + Speed / 244 / None
... / Goldeen, Snivy / 63 / + Speed / 252 / None
16 / Chimchar / 61 / + Speed / 188 / None
... / Barboach, Fennekin, Growlithe, Horsea, Karrablast, Riolu, Rufflet, Spoink, Starly, Tynamo / 60 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Axew, Venipede / 57 / + Speed / 220 / None
... / Pidgey, Pumpkaboo (Small) / 56 / + Speed / 228 / None
... / Ducklett, Eevee, Ekans, Kabuto, Lillipup, Noibat, Zubat / 55 / + Speed / 236 / None
15 / Skiddo / 52 / + Speed / 180 / None
... / Pumpkaboo (Average) / 51 / + Speed / 188 / None
... / Bagon, Binacle, Darumaka, Dratini, Krabby, Mantyke, Skitty, Swablu, Swinub / 50 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Tyrunt / 48 / + Speed / 212 / None
... / Amaura, Pumpkaboo (Large) / 46 / + Speed / 228 / None
... / Gothita, Inkay, Seel, Tepig, Torchic / 45 / + Speed / 236 / None
... / Clauncher / 44 / + Speed / 244 / None
... / Pancham / 43 / + Speed / 252 / None

Analysis: This is the tier in which the vast majority of unboosted LC UU resides. In these tiers, it is often easy for Pokemon to get lost among the crowd and not have any real desire to run maximum Speed, so similarly to tier 2, this is merely to demonstrate what the absolute maximum Speed these Pokemon could potentially be at. Important to note is the fact that although 19 Speed is typically regarded as the number to hit, there aren't many Pokemon that hit a maximum of 18 Speed, so this stat is statistically only slightly less advantageous.

Tier 5 (11 - 14 Spe)
14 / Flabébé, Gible / 42 / + Speed / 180 / None
... / Larvitar, Pumpkaboo (Super) / 41 / + Speed / 188 / None
... / Frillish, Goomy, Shellder, Snover, Teddiursa / 40 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Phantump / 38 / + Speed / 212 / None
... / Cacnea, Cherubi, Golett, Machop, Omanyte, Scatterbug / 35 / + Speed / 236 / None
... / Chespin / 33 / + Speed / 252 / None
13 / Clamperl / 32 / + Speed / 180 / None
... / Aron, Elgyem, Klink, Oddish, Petilil, Skrelp / 30 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Bergmite / 28 / + Speed / 212 / None
... / Paras, Rhyhorn / 25 / + Speed / 236 / None
12 / Litwick, Solosis / 20 / + Speed / 196 / None
... / Slowpoke, Wooper / 15 / + Speed / 236 / None
11 / Trapinch / 10 / + Speed / 196 / None

Analysis: Here's where the slowest Pokemon in LC hit their maximum stats. Most of these Pokemon will never want to run a max Speed set, as EVs are better spent in their defenses, but there are a few exceptions. This mostly include Pokemon such as Oddish or Aron who have the means to boost their Speed, so maximizing the stat allows them to get more out of their boost.
 
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Little Cup UnderUsed Viability Rankings
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Viability Rankings Council:

To be added soon.

Tier List:

S-Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC UU tier. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Click to expand...

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Clamperl
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Elekid
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Shellder

A-Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.
Click to expand...


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Doduo
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Gothita
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Hippopotas
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Inkay
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Koffing
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Lickitung
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Purrloin
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Riolu
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Sandshrew
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Shellos
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Slowpoke
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Surskit
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Taillow

Other Pokémon will be added soon.

IF YOU THINK THAT A POKEMON SHOULD BE MOVED UP OR DOWN PM YOUR THOUGHTS WITH SOME SOLID ARGUMENTS, DO NOT POST IT HERE.
 
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Clamperl hype *-*
Looks like a fun tier, looking forward to play it as well :toast:
 
I'm gonna really enjoy this tier, I think. Sticky Webs look very viable in this, plus it's a great chance for our unsung, overlooked, and outclassed heroes to get some love.
 
Looking at the initial threatlist, I see nothing that can safely switch into Doduo. also, Clamperl's gonna be a huge threat.
 
Clamperl and Omanyte look strong as fuck in this meta, gonna be amazing sweepers. Can't think of much to counter them besides Lickitung, Slowpoke, Mantyke, (but hp electricmight start to occur, cos oma doesn't need earth power that much without chinchou and gunk here) and like,,, scarf Elekid. Shellder is also strong as fuck, Slowpoke is the only big counter i see. Smashers gonna rule this meta.
 
There are really some crazy options available for this. HippoShrew is down here making Sand a fun option, and Omanyte + Clamperl + Shellder being down here means that we should expect to see lots of Shell Smash. On that note, OMANYTE IS UU AHJKFHAJKDHKJADH.

Also Elekid and Doduo are going to be fantastic options.

Overall this meta is infested with Water-types and that will make Pokemon that can check them great. Elekid and Slowpoke for sure, and maybe this will help Grass-types as long as they don't get torn apart by Ice Beams.
 
This might be really early I think I'll just go ahead and say that Omanyte is broken and deserves a quick ban. Omanyte already has few counters that are OU (Ferroseed, Cottonee that can switch on the smash and Encore, Mach Punch Timburr and Vacuum Wave Croagunk, Specially bulky Pokémon like Munchlax and Porygon) leaving only few weak "counters" like Defensive Snover and Mantyke (but HP Electric can be used as like Rowan said Earth Power isn't needed with Chinchou and Croagunk being LC OU) that can't deal with it with the same effectiveness as the Pokémon mentioned before, and it can't be revenge killed with the lack of fast scarfer with a move able to KO it except Scarf Elekid. I gave Omanyte a try and it can make Pokémon like Doduo and Taillow set up baits and go ahead and sweep (here is a replay to show how it can easily sweep through teams). Like I said this is be really early but I don't believe there Pokémon we'll discover that are able to wall Omanyte that are LC UU so I think it'll be better to quick ban it (I don't know how it got that low usage..). There is Clamperl too that might be a problem but I don't feel it's as broken as Omanyte is because it relies on Deep Sea Tooth to double its Special Attack so it can't boost its defenses with Eviolite like Omanyte, it might be a problem in the future but now I think Omanyte is the priority.
 
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Seems great. I love unusual mons, so LC UU is just perfect imo.
But some mons, like Clamperl/Omanyte, maybe Shellder, are really op for this meta.

Omanyte can be banned to LC UU imo, Yagura has said everything.
Clamperl can be banned too imo. Srsly who can take a hit ? Ferroseed.
But Ferro is banned, and HP Electric +2 can easily OHKO Mantyke and Tentacool.
And I can take priorities, Acro is banned, and the Pawniard's Sucker Punch too :

236 Atk Guts Taillow Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

And he can rise to 26 spd with a Shell Smash, better than 60 spd scarf like Larvesta, for exemple.
I think he could be banned, but it's just my opinion ofc.
 
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Honestly I'd rather if we want to quickban anything with theorymon we ban Shell Smash. Everything with it in this tier seems stupid.
Metagame predicts:

Torchic is going to annoy people like no other. It is decently effective already in normal LC where Fletch makes the amount of viable receivers very small.

macle will finally be able to make a good frog team

Riolu for #1 fighting type. SD HJK Crunch Copycat seems hard to stop.
 
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There are some RIDICULOUSLY good defensive Pokemon available here (Lickitung, Slowpoke and Hippopotas immediately come to mind), so I figured I would try to build a stall team.
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 36 SpA / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Scald
- Slack Off

Lickitung @ Eviolite
Ability: Oblivious
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Heal Bell

Hippopotas @ Eviolite
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 5
EVs: 132 HP / 20 Atk / 212 Def / 100 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

Cacnea @ Eviolite
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Bullet Seed
- Spikes

Koffing @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 236 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Clear Smog
- Toxic Spikes

Kabuto @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 36 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcuu-160682145 - earlier rendition of the team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcuu-160689550
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcuu-160703091
The lack of defensive hazard removers can be a hassle (kabuto and sandshrew lack recovery, baltoy is weak to knock off and recyclejuice sucks, pineco is absolutely awful as anything other than a suicide lead), but I think the sheer defensive prowess of some of these available Pokemon should still render stall a viable strategy.

Antar said:
Yagura, The Czar (that is, me) is holding off on banning anything for at least a week. Then we'll decide whether to ban Omanyte or Shell Smash.
Click to expand...
I understand where you're coming from, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Omanyte is completely broken. Is it possible to leave Omanyte banned for the time being, and once a week passes, remove this ban and decide whether Omanyte/Shell Smash/whatever should be banned instead? It's honestly not fun to have to build entire teams around beating Omanyte alone, and I don't think it's a very good way to start the tier off.
 
Hippopatas with sand shrew as well as all 3 of those smashers are problematic but they are also all between #42 and #45 tightly packed in there. I suggest that the list either be extended to #45 or even to #50 instead of 40.
 
Stratis said:
Hippopatas with sand shrew as well as all 3 of those smashers are problematic but they are also all between #42 and #45 tightly packed in there. I suggest that the list either be extended to #45 or even to #50 instead of 40.
Click to expand...

Antar said:
Yagura, The Czar (that is, me) is holding off on banning anything for at least a week. Then we'll decide whether to ban Omanyte or Shell Smash.
Click to expand...

wait a week bro stop tryna discuss bans
 
Corporal Levi, I hear what you're saying, but seeing as there are *some* defensive counters & checks for Omanyte, I'd rather we wait and see if the metagame can adapt around it and stabilize. A day in, we're still only in theorymonning territory.

Stratis, the OU-UU cutoff isn't by rank, it's by usage percentage. Those Pokemon are not Overused. Hence, they're welcome in UU.
 
Pretty surprised that Slowpoke is in LC UU, it has a nice typing (albeit, Knock Off weak), finds it easy to recover health and is rather bulky. Same goes for Hippopotas bulk-wise, and it can set up Stealth Rock. I haven't seen Tyrunt mentioned yet, I'd like to see how that fares as a DD sweeper. Overall, can't wait to play this!
 
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