Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon Battle Mechanics Research (Read Post #2)

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*Credit to OmegaDonut for the previous XY mechanics research thread.

Pokemon Sun/Moon Research Thread

Rules for this Thread

1. Discussion is limited to suggestions for the list, or new information revealed on battle mechanics. Limit discussion to battle mechanics only. That means:

  • Do NOT discuss competitive implications for the new changes.
  • Do NOT discuss the new training methods. That will be handled in a separate thread.
  • Do NOT discuss type changes to existing Pokémon. That is already handled in another thread.
2. Avoid vague questions like "does X still work the same?" or "How does new move Y work?" We need a specific idea to test.

Other guidelines will probably be added at the discretion of the moderators soon enough.

USUM Move Flags: https://pastebin.com/UfXxewxD

New Move/Z-Move Data: https://pastebin.com/i83MBkQQ

New Mechanics

Moves
  • Mind Blown:
  • Photon Geyser:
  • Plasma Fists:
Z-Moves
  • Clangorous Soulblaze:
  • Splintered Stormshards:
    • We know Splintered Stormshards removes terrains. What about Ion Deluge/Tailwind/other field effects I'm forgetting? E
    • ntry hazards?
  • Let's Snuggle Forever:
  • Searing Sunraze Smash:
  • Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom:
  • Light That Burns the Sky:
Abilities

Items

Other Mechanics

Possible Mechanics Changes

Moves

Z-Moves

Abilities

Items

Other Mechanics

Known Information

Moves
  • Mind Blown:
    • Can be used if the user is at or under 50% of their Max HP and the user will faint first before the move damages the opposing Pokemon (This varies depending if animations are turned off or on (Marty)). If the user's Max HP is an odd number the amount of HP subtracted will be rounded UP hence Mind Blown cannot be used more than two times without the user recovering HP. (Kalalokki and UltiMario)
    • Damp prevents the use of Mind Blown. (Kalalokki)
    • Mind Blown doesn't interact with Reckless or Rock Head, but the damage is prevented by Magic Guard. It's not counted as a secondary effect by Sheer Force. You only lose half your HP once for Parental Bond, between the hits, so you can faint before the 2nd hit of damage is dealt. Shedinja predictably and KOes itself in a single Mind Blown (UltiMario).
    • Gives you recoil should you miss, if protected by Wonder Guard, and also if it's absorbed by the likes of Flash Fire. It does not give recoil if it's negated by Powder, beside the fixed Powder damage, nor during heavy rain. (Kalalokki)
  • Photon Geyser:
    • This move ignores the target's Ability. (DaWobeleft)
    • If the user's current Attack stat is higher than their Special Attack stat, this move is treated as a physical attack and uses the target's defense to calculate damage. Otherwise it is treated as a special attack. (Merritt, Worldie, DHR [scroll down for the others])
    • Uses the user's actual highest stat (Attack or Special Attack) not their base stat. (UltiMario)
    • In the case of a tie in Attack and Special Attack stats, Photon Geyser will use Special Attack to determine its damage and be treated as a special attack. (UltiMario)
    • When going off the user's higher Attack stat the move is treated as physical and will activate Weak Armor and be weakened by reflect. (Marty)
    • If the user is burned while their raw Attack stat is higher than their Special Attack, Photo Geyser deals half the damage. The damage dealt is based on the higher raw Attack stat which is then halved by the burn. (UltiMario)
  • Plasma Fists:
    • Plasma Fists applies the Ion Deluge effect, i.e the effect that turns Normal-type moves to Electric-type moves, (Literally says "A deluge of ions showered the battlefield!") the turn it is used. Just like Ion Deluge, it only lasts until the end of that turn. Plasma Fists must actually deal damage to get the "Ion Deluge" effect. (UltiMario and Kalalokki)
  • Wide Guard:
    • Now reduces damage dealt by spread Z-moves to 25% like Protect (DaWobeleft). This effect applies in both Single and Double battles and is extended to any ally Pokemon if the Z-move is aimed at them instead of the Wide Guard user. The damage reduction effect does not stack with Protect. (Marty) Reduces the damage done to both the Wide Guard user and ally pokemon if hit by Clangorous Soulblaze. (DaWobeleft)
Z-Moves
  • Clangorous Soulblaze:
    • Must deal damage to give the stat boost to the user. If it is used on a Fairy-type and fails it will not boost the user's stats. (Kalalokki)
    • Stat boosts from this move are affected by Sheer Force, Contrary, and Simple respectively. (Kalalokki)
    • Can still be used even if the user is under the effect of Throat Chop. (source)
  • Splintered Stormshards:
    • Does NOT remove Trick Room, Gravity, Pledge move comboes, or Weather effects active on the field. (Kalalokki)
  • Let's Snuggle Forever:
  • Searing Sunraze Smash:
  • Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom:
  • Light That Burns the Sky:
    • Uses the opposing Pokemon's Special Defense to calculate damage regardless if it used the user's Attack or Special Attack stat. (UltiMario)
Abilities
  • Neuroforce:
    • Boosts damage from super-effective attacks by 1.25x. (source)
    • Neuroforce and Expert Belt stack. (UltiMario)
    • Can be removed by Gastro Acid and Worry Seed, as well as swapped with Skill Swap, taken by Role Play, and given by Entrainment. (Kalalokki)

Items

Other Mechanics
  • You can only UltraBurst once per battle and it does not use up your mega evolution or Z-move for the battle. (UltiMario)
  • The turn you become Ultra Necrozma, you press an "Ultra Burst" button, where Mega/Z-Move usually shows up. This prevents you from using your Z-Move the same turn you Ultra Burst. Necrozma uses Ultra's speed stat on the turn it Ultra Bursts. (UltiMario)
  • Z-Move and Ultra Burst are only related through Ultranecronium-Z. You don't actually use up your Z-Move until you use Light That Burns The Sky with Necrozma. (UltiMario)
  • You're limited to 1 Dusk Mane with your N-Solarizer and 1 Dawn Wings with your N-Lunarizer (your fusion key items). (UltiMario)
  • None of the new moves introduced in Ultra Sun/Moon are restricted to the Pokemon who learns them. i.e Smeargle can sketch Mind Blown or Photon Geyser and use them. (Kalalokki)
  • When connecting to Pokemon Sun/Moon and Pokemon Ultra Sun/Moon only Ultra Sun/Moon are allowed to select battle rules, so all mechanics will apply based on Ultra Sun/Moon's mechanics. (Marty)
 
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Ok so opening this up since the game has started to spread and we may as well start asking questions about these new moves. Notice the move flag (courtesy of Marty) link at the top of the first post answers a few questions about the nature of these new moves so please look at that before asking questions. Right below the aforementioned link are descriptions for the new moves (Courtesy of Kazo). As always these threads are NOT the place to discuss the competitive value or lack-thereof any findings posted here so please refrain from doing or you will be infracted. For now, I'd prefer we stick to bringing up questions regarding new content and no "does this still work the same as in 'x game version/generation" at all.
 
  • How much is the boost given to super-effective moves by the ability Neuroforce?
  • How long does the Ion Deluge effect last when the move Plasma Fist is used?
  • On the turn that either Dusk Mane or Dawn Wings transform into Ultra Necrozma, which forme's speed stat is used to determine the attack order? (I assume it's Ultra's since that's how Mega Evolving works but doesn't hurt to check)
  • If Plasma Fists is used versus a Ground-type Pokemon, does the Ion Deluge effect still activate? What about when Plasma Fists is used versus a Pokemon with Volt Absorb or Lightningrod? (I assume the answer is no, but doesn't hurt to check)
  • If Clangorous Soulblaze is used versus a Fairy-type, does Kommo-O get the stat boosts? (Again, assume not but might as well check)
  • We know Splintered Stormshards removes terrains. Does it remove weathers? What about Magic Room/Wonder Room/Trick Room/Gravity/Ion Deluge/Tailwind/other field effects I'm forgetting? What about Rainbow/Swamp/Sea of Fire (the effects that result from combining Pledge moves)?
 
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  • If Necrozma's attack is higher than its SAtk, does Photon Geyser / LTBTS hit the enemy's defense or SDef?
  • How exactly does Necrozma transform into Ultra Necrozma? Does it always happen at the start of its first turn out?
  • (Not sure if already known) Does the evasion drop of Prankster Defog get blocked by Dark-types? Not obvious since Defog is field-targeted, not enemy-targeted iirc
  • If Plasma Fists' effect lasts longer than one turn, does it affect Zeraora's own Normal-type moves?
  • Can Mind Blown be used while below 50% health? Are the 50% subtracted before or after dealing damage?
  • What is the additional effect of Let's Snuggle Forever?
 
Ok I've tested a few of the questions:

  • Splintered Stormshards does NOT remove weather or Trick Room for sure, the other are a bit harder to test for me atm but I don't think those would get removed either. Not sure about pledge moves tho.
  • Clangorous Soulblaze does NOT give you boosts if the move is used against a Fairy-type
  • Mind Blown CAN be used if your health is below 50% and it is subtracted before you deal the damage. You actually even faint before the damage is dealt. Also out of sheer coincidence, I noticed it is also blocked by Damp.
  • Plasma Fists only works on the turn it is used and there's NO Ion Deluge effect if used on Ground-types, doubt anything would change if used on Lightning Rod/Volt Absorb either
  • Pretty sure this was tested last game, but Prankster Defog is BLOCKED by Dark-types too
I'll try some others another time
 
Question related to Mind Blown, if Blacephalon's HP is an odd number, would the 50% round up or down? That is, without any other damage, could Blacephalon ever use Mind Blown twice without fainting?
 
Does Photon Geyser take stat boosts/drops into account when deciding its catagory? Like, if you burn a Dusk Mane Necrozma that's used Calm Mind a few times, will Photon Geyser still be Physical or will it switch to Special?
 
Edit: looks like some of this was done while i was making this post but whatever.

MattL said:
  • How much is the boost given to super-effective moves by the ability Neuroforce?
  • How long does the Ion Deluge effect last when the move Plasma Fist is used?
  • On the turn that either Dusk Mane or Dawn Wings transform into Ultra Necrozma, which forme's speed stat is used to determine the attack order? (I assume it's Ultra's since that's how Mega Evolving works but doesn't hurt to check)
  • If Plasma Fists is used versus a Ground-type Pokemon, does the Ion Deluge effect still activate? What about when Plasma Fists is used versus a Pokemon with Volt Absorb or Lightningrod? (I assume the answer is no, but doesn't hurt to check)
Click to expand...

Neuroforce applies the Expert Belt effect. It does the damage increase in the same step as expert belt (which is different than, say, items like Soft Sand or Earth Plate), which results in the same damage rolls as if Necrozma had expert belt.

The turn you become Ultra Necrozma, you press an "Ultra Burst" button, where Mega/Z-Move usually shows up. This prevents you from using your Z-Move the same turn you Ultra Burst. Necrozma uses Ultra's speed stat on the turn it Ultra Bursts.

Edit: Also, as far as I can tell, only Dawn Wings/Dusk Mane can Ultra Burst. Base Necrozma can't.

Plasma Fists applies the Ion Deluge effect (Literally says "A deluge of ions showered the battlefield!") the turn it is used. Just like Ion Deluge, it only lasts until the end of that turn. Plasma Fists must actually deal damage to get the Ion Deluge effect.

Linkin Karp said:
  • Can Mind Blown be used while below 50% health? Are the 50% subtracted before or after dealing damage?
Click to expand...

Yes, it can, KOing you in the process. The 50% is subtracted after dealing the damage, but you still faint first if both health bars are reduced to 0 for some reason (Thanks Gamefreak). The 50%, unlike literally everything else in Pokemon, is actually rounded UP, which means that you can't get 3 mind blowns off from an odd HP number.
 
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  • Can you have both a DW and DM Necrozma on the same team? If yes, can you ultra burst more than once per match?
  • Does ultra burst prevent other Pokémon from using z moves
  • Does Mimikyu’s z move have any special effect?
  • Does Neiroforce stack with expert belt?
 
Linkin Karp said:
  • If Necrozma's attack is higher than its SAtk, does Photon Geyser / LTBTS hit the enemy's defense or SDef?
Click to expand...
Looks like Necrozma's moves hit special defense, regardless of the attacking stat used.

DrPumpkinz said:
Does Photon Geyser take stat boosts/drops into account when deciding its catagory? Like, if you burn a Dusk Mane Necrozma that's used Calm Mind a few times, will Photon Geyser still be Physical or will it switch to Special?
Click to expand...
Uses highest actual instead of highest base. Ex a SpA stat at 200 at +2 (400) would get used over an Atk stat stat of 300.

Swaggy-G said:
  • Can you have both a DW and DM Necrozma on the same team? If yes, can you ultra burst more than once per match?
  • Does ultra burst prevent other Pokémon from using z moves
  • Does Neiroforce stack with expert belt?
Click to expand...

You're limited to 1 Dusk Mane with your N-Solarizer and 1 Dawn Wings with your N-Lunarizer (your fusion key items). Assuming N-Solarizer is US ecxlusive and N-Lunarizer is UM Exclusive, you can't have these Pokemon on the same team (but if the opposite item is somewhere present in the game, you can ignore this. I have no idea if it's exclusive or not, and obviously hackmons can ignore this limit). You can only Ultra Burst once per battle.

Z-Move and Ultra Burst are only related through Ultranecronium-Z. You don't actually use up your Z-Move until you use Light with Necrozma.

Only relevant for hackmons, but Neuroforce and Expert Belt stack. I'm not exactly sure how though. Damage formula was probably altered to put Neuroforce in there as its own instance, since it stacks with Ebelt in a way that creates "impossible" damage rolls (something that no combination of stats/abilities/items can roll with the current formula as far as I can tell).
 
UltiMario said:
Looks like Necrozma's moves hit special defense, regardless of the attacking stat used.


Uses highest actual instead of highest base. Ex a SpA stat at 200 at +2 (400) would get used over an Atk stat stat of 300.



You're limited to 1 Dusk Mane with your N-Solarizer and 1 Dawn Wings with your N-Lunarizer (your fusion key items). Assuming N-Solarizer is US ecxlusive and N-Lunarizer is UM Exclusive, you can't have these Pokemon on the same team (but if the opposite item is somewhere present in the game, you can ignore this. I have no idea if it's exclusive or not, and obviously hackmons can ignore this limit). You can only Ultra Burst once per battle.

Z-Move and Ultra Burst are only related through Ultranecronium-Z. You don't actually use up your Z-Move until you use Light with Necrozma.

Only relevant for hackmons, but Neuroforce and Expert Belt stack. I'm not exactly sure how though. Damage formula was probably altered to put Neuroforce in there as its own instance, since it stacks with Ebelt in a way that creates "impossible" damage rolls (something that no combination of stats/abilities/items can roll with the current formula as far as I can tell).
Click to expand...

I’m pretty sure from story text that the N-Lunariser and the other one are not version exclusive. They tend not to make it impossible to obtain a Pokemon form even by trading.

If it’s a once per battle thing, does Ultra Bursting count as your Mega?
 
Do dusk mane/dawn wing necrozma have to hold a specific item in order to exist or can they hold any item like most other pokemon can?
 
lalala45 said:
Do dusk mane/dawn wing necrozma have to hold a specific item in order to exist or can they hold any item like most other pokemon can?
Click to expand...
The use a key item to exist. Think Kyurem and the DNA link pins. As a result, they can hold any item, and if they hold Ultra Necrozium-Z They can become Ultra Necrozma in a way just like Mega Evolution.
 
  • In the list of Z-Move data, Splintering Stormshards has Effect 415 and Light That Burns The Sky has effect 417. Let's Snuggle Forever has effect 416, which is unlisted on what it does like the other 2. What is this effect?
  • Does transforming Necrozma into Ultra Necrozma take up your Mega Evolution slot?
  • Can Neuroforce be negated?
  • Can Splintered Stormshards remove entry hazards such as Stealth Rock or Spikes?
  • We know the Special Rockruff can breed, but can it pass down Own Tempo and therefore evolve into Dusk forme?
 
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The game uses exact words for many of its mechanics. If it resembles a Mega Evolution but does not say it's a Mega Evolution, then it won't count as one.

But then again, it's Game Freak so it should be tested.
 
In SM, Slush Rush did not give immunity to Hail if the pokemon otherwise would take damage from it. Have they made Slush Rush work like other weather stat boost abilities and have it give immunity to the weather (Hail) in USUM?
 
Hey, can Neuroforce be replaced or switched to an ally through moves and abilities such as Simple, Skill Swap, etc?
 
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Is Mind Blown's "recoil" damage canceled by Rock Head ? I assume that it is canceled by Magic Guard, but could someone confirm ? Is it boosted by Reckless ?
 
Which moves from Solgaleo's movepool does Dusk Mane Necrozma have access to, and which moves from Lunala's movepool does Dawn Wings Necrozma have access to? All of them? Or just the signature moves? Or something else?
 
MattL said:
Which moves from Solgaleo's movepool does Dusk Mane Necrozma have access to, and which moves from Lunala's movepool does Dawn Wings Necrozma have access to? All of them? Or just the signature moves? Or something else?
Click to expand...

They keep Necrozma's level-up and tutor moves (which you can find in one of the pastebins) only thing they get are the special moves (Moongeist Beam/Sunsteel Strike) which replace the last move in Necrozma's move set when it fuses (assuming that last move isn't a Necrozma unique move like photon geyser, otherwise it'll replace the next move up). They're like Kyurem B/W in this regard where Solgaleo/Lunala are just fodder.
 
Nexus said:
They keep Necrozma's level-up and tutor moves (which you can find in one of the pastebins) only thing they get are the special moves (Moongeist Beam/Sunsteel Strike) which replace the last move in Necrozma's move set when it fuses (assuming that last move isn't a Necrozma unique move like photon geyser, otherwise it'll replace the next move up). They're like Kyurem B/W in this regard where Solgaleo/Lunala are just fodder.
Click to expand...

This is confirmed? Kinda an odd choice when they could have just replaced Prismatic Laser.

This has interesting implications for Ultra Necrozma, because that means it *must* have either Sunsteel Strike or Moongeist Beam in its moveset (unless you can delete them after fusing), and you can't really bluff between physical/special sets without wasting a moveslot. Also makes PP Maxing those moves SUPER annoying in game.
 
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