Research Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon Battle Mechanics Research (Read Post #2)

Nexus

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Apparently wide guard now reduces the damage on Z-moves (regardless if the base move was spread or not apparently) according to this vid here: https://twitter.com/DaWoblefet/status/932129260713717760

Can anyone double check and check the interaction with quick guard, if any?

Also check if the reduction applies to only the wide guard user or to an ally Pokemon as well?
 
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DaWoblefet

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Apparently wide guard now reduces the damage on Z-moves (regardless if the base move was spread or not apparently) according to this vid here: https://twitter.com/DaWoblefet/status/932129260713717760

Can anyone double check and check the interaction with quick guard, if any?

Also check if the reduction applies to only the wide guard user or to an ally Pokemon as well?
Beat me to it! It does apply to the ally of Wide Guard as well, see this tweet.

Other things to test:
-Wide Guard + Protect stacking for this
-Wide Guard + Z-move an ally; self-Wide Guard and self-Z-move
-Clangorous Soulblaze's interaction
-Singles interaction

This confirmed did not happen in regular Sun/Moon.
 
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This introduces a consistency issue between SM and USUM, right? As in, which cartridge is in use determines what effect Wide Guard has on Z Moves?

Given that we just got a spread Z-move, this sounds like a bug that cropped up because they changed Wide Guard to accommodate that move and forgot to have the reduction apply to only that Z-move.
 

Marty

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This introduces a consistency issue between SM and USUM, right? As in, which cartridge is in use determines what effect Wide Guard has on Z Moves?
The games refuse to allow a player with Sun or Moon to choose the battle rules when communicating with Ultra Sun or Ultra Moon, so matches between them use the Ultra game's mechanics.

Edit:
Other things to test:
-Wide Guard + Protect stacking for this
-Wide Guard + Z-move an ally; self-Wide Guard and self-Z-move
-Singles interaction
-Stacking Wide Guard and Protect doesn't increase the protection since the Z-Move damage quartering is only in one place in the damage formula, and only checks if protection was bypassed at all.
-Using a Z-Move on your Wide Guarded ally does reduce the damage.
-Happens in Singles as well.

Can't test Soulblaze since I only have one copy of an Ultra game.

Also Quick Guard wasn't touched at all, still behaves the same with Z-Moves.
Another edit: To clarify this, Quick Guard still doesn't interact with non-priority Z-Moves and still reduces damage from Gale Wings Supersonic Skystrike and Prankster Z-Nature Power and whatever else that would grant a Z-Move priority.
 
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I'm pretty sure, everyone is already fed up with this, but have some little more Stomping Tantrum insights:
  • For Future Sight, only the inital Launch of the attack counts towards Stomping Tantrum. No boosts if it misses, hits a dark type, or the target is yourself. Using Future Sight and havong it fail, because the target is already about to get hit by a Future Sight, will of course bost Stomping Tantrum.
  • Splash doesn't boost Stomping Tantrum. In general, if an attack doesn't fail but also doesn't achieve anything (like using Imprison multiple times) Stomping Tantrum doesn't get a boost. (Things like Shell Trap explicitly state, that they fail.)
  • In the same line of Moves used via Instruct, Dancer or Magic Coat/Magic, moves used via Snatch will boost Stomping Tantrum if they fail

  • Mind Blown gives you recoil should you miss, if protected by Wonder Guard, and also if it's absorbed by the likes of Flash Fire. It does not give recoil if it's negated by Powder, beside the fixed Powder damage, nor during heavy rain.
So, since it probably doesn't fail, it would be interesting to know wether an ineffective Mind Blown boosts Stomping Tantrum or not. It still does animate, right?
 
I'm pretty sure, everyone is already fed up with this, but have some little more Stomping Tantrum insights:
  • In the same line of Moves used via Instruct, Dancer or Magic Coat/Magic, moves used via Snatch will boost Stomping Tantrum if they fail
This actually gets me curious (implying there's any mon that gets Fake Out + Stomping Tantrum, for science)
If you Fake out, then Oranguru outspeeds and Instruct a fakeout that fail and you queued Stomping Tantrum that turn, does said ST get a boost?
 
This actually gets me curious (implying there's any mon that gets Fake Out + Stomping Tantrum, for science)
If you Fake out, then Oranguru outspeeds and Instruct a fakeout that fail and you queued Stomping Tantrum that turn, does said ST get a boost?
I was getting really worried there, that i was remembering something wrong, because suddenly I didn't get the results I suspected. I had performed a Fake Out with my lagging Tail Smeargle succesfully and instructed it next turn, so it would fail, and Smeargle would execute a Stomping Tantrum against my Oranguru. The result was, that Stomping Tantrum did not get a boost. It was not the fault of Fake Out either, as having it fail normally would boost it next turn. And turns out Next Turn is the Keyphrase here. I had previously tested with a relatively fast Pokémon, which would move first and later copy a move via Instruct, Dancer or Magic Bounce.

For Stomping Tantrum to trigger, the previously failed move must also lie in the previous turn. Fake Out and a slower Instruct will net you a boost on the next turn (Fake Out must not only be used on the first turn, but also be the first move on that turn to succeed...), but if the last move was succesful and a repeat through a faster Instruct fails, its basically a wasted move. I do not know if the opposite holds true; if repeating a failed move und executing it succesfully with a faster instruct will rob Stomping Tantrum of its boost (which could otherwise potentially mean two boosted Stomping Tantrums in one turn?)

I guess that means you are also no longer interested in Hitmonlee, Hariyama, Incineroar and Kangaskhan, who would get both moves - which also reminds me that Stomping Tantrum needs to be tested on the second hit of Parental Bond...
 

MacChaeger

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I'm pretty sure, everyone is already fed up with this, but have some little more Stomping Tantrum insights:
  • For Future Sight, only the inital Launch of the attack counts towards Stomping Tantrum. No boosts if it misses, hits a dark type, or the target is yourself. Using Future Sight and havong it fail, because the target is already about to get hit by a Future Sight, will of course bost Stomping Tantrum.
  • Splash doesn't boost Stomping Tantrum. In general, if an attack doesn't fail but also doesn't achieve anything (like using Imprison multiple times) Stomping Tantrum doesn't get a boost. (Things like Shell Trap explicitly state, that they fail.)
  • In the same line of Moves used via Instruct, Dancer or Magic Coat/Magic, moves used via Snatch will boost Stomping Tantrum if they fail



So, since it probably doesn't fail, it would be interesting to know wether an ineffective Mind Blown boosts Stomping Tantrum or not. It still does animate, right?
Could you test the rest of the moves that call other moves, namely Assist, Copycat, Me First, Metronome, Mimic, Mirror Move, Nature Power, and Sleep Talk? Also, does successfully getting the Z-effect out of a status move while the move itself fails still count as a fail?

Edit: what about moves like Psych Up, Guard Swap, and Power Swap that always animate even if they didn't actually accomplish anything?
 
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Edit: what about moves like Psych Up, Guard Swap, and Power Swap that always animate even if they didn't actually accomplish anything?
I believe it was tested that if the move does nothing but doesn't fail (so animation executes, and no "but it failed" message), it doesn't trigger ST as it's still a successful action
 

Merritt

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Hey! So after seeing a brief post earlier today about Photon Geyser hitting defense on a Stakataka, I was curious and asked Worldie to test it ingame on a Chansey since its lopsided defenses offer a fantastic picture of what to expect and easy verification of what defensive stat it hit. There's pictures below to show the stats of Necrozma and Chansey's level to verify.

At level 56 there is 0 way for Photon Geyser hitting special defense to OHKO, but it did so, proving that it does in fact hit opponent defense if Necrozma's attack is higher.


 
Coming with the calcs of the above.

Apparently, Photon Geyser seems to actually hit defense if it uses the Attack stat.
I've tried with a couple Chanseys, using my own (timid, because) Dusk Mane Necrozma
upload_2017-11-23_18-26-57.png

upload_2017-11-23_18-27-22.png


We've inputted a simulation on smogon calc with those results
1) Photon geyser hitting the poor 5 def
upload_2017-11-23_18-43-31.png


2) Inputting 105 as base defense to simulate Photon Geyser hitting spdef and checking the calcs again
upload_2017-11-23_18-47-10.png



If Photon Geyser was hitting Spdef, there was absolutely no way it'd ever die in 1 shot.
So there's some evidence that if fired off Attack or at very least if fired from Dusk Mane Necrozma, Photon Geyser it will actually hit the defense stat.
 

DHR-107

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To confirm what Merritt and Worldie have said, we also got out my Blissey and battled with Worldie's Necrozma Dusk Mane.

Prior to Ultra Reforming, the hit from Photon Geyser hit my Physical defense (My Blissey took approximately 65% damage), after Ultra Necrozma was on the field, due to its Timid nature, it hit me with its Special Attack, dealing a significant amount less in response.

Battle Video: TWBG-WWWW-WWWW-558D
 
If it deals damage coming from the Atk stat, is this because its category changes to Physical, or is this a new mechanic that we haven't seen before? (I assume you can determine the category of the move by whether it activates a Kee Berry or a Maranga Berry.)
Photon Geyser uses Atk and Def stats? Sounds like a Physical move to me... what happens if you use CounterCoat on it?

Edit: While I remember, I saw a YouTube video of a SOS Chansey Mudbray using Rototiller. As nobody was Grass type, the game just said that they weren't affected. Does this count as a success or failure from the point of view of Stomping Tantrum? Does Flower Shield act the same way? Also, PS doesn't do this, it says the move failed; is this because the mechanic changed from previous versions?
 
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Photon Geyser uses Atk and Def stats? Sounds like a Physical move to me... what happens if you use CounterCoat on it?

Edit: While I remember, I saw a YouTube video of a SOS Chansey using Rototiller. As nobody was Grass type, the game just said that they weren't affected. Does this count as a success or failure from the point of view of Stomping Tantrum? Does Flower Shield act the same way? Also, PS doesn't do this, it says the move failed; is this because the mechanic changed from previous versions?
Are you sure it was a Chansey that used Rototiller? Chansey can't normally learn that move.
 
Can't test Counter/Mirror Coat against my allies, but Photon Geyser from the Attack stat activates Weak Armor and is weakened by Reflect, so it must actually become Physical.
So the initial Special move type is pretty much just so that it gets a special Shattered Psyche with a Psychium Z?
 

Marty

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Can you test what happens when attack and special attack are the same?
This was established already; Special Attack is used if they're equal.
does z-photon geyser always count as special, or will it turn physical if the attack stat is higher?
Depends which Z-Photon Geyser you're talking about. Light That Burns the Sky behaves the same way as Photon Geyser because it's also a property of that Z-Move, while Shattered Psyche remains Special all the time because it takes the base move's listed category, which is Special.

Edit: Everything mentioned about Photon Geyser today I've now implemented on Pokemon Showdown, including the below post.
 
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