Undervalued Moves

[-Zer0-]

Revenge

This move was made for Hitmontops with Technician. Here's a quick calculation for you:

60 BP x 1.5 (Technician) = 90
90 x 1.5 (STAB) = 135

That's right, on a Technician Hitmontop, it's more powerful that Close Combat!

Now, you may think, "What about that annoying -3 priority?" Well, remember, Technotops will be carry a variety of Fake Out/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch, so priority is not an issue, as that are alternatives.

But it gets even better, Revenge has a special ability, which doubles it's strength if it takes damage from a direct attack on the same turn. So if you know you can survive an upcoming attack, you can hit the opponent with a 270 Base Power move, now that IS hefty.

There's nothing special here. It's not more powerful than CC. CC has 180 power after STAB, revenge has 135.

 

[LightWolf]

Revenge

This move was made for Hitmontops with Technician. Here's a quick calculation for you:

60 BP x 1.5 (Technician) = 90
90 x 1.5 (STAB) = 135

That's right, on a Technician Hitmontop, it's more powerful that Close Combat!

Now, you may think, "What about that annoying -3 priority?" Well, remember, Technotops will be carry a variety of Fake Out/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch, so priority is not an issue, as that are alternatives.

But it gets even better, Revenge has a special ability, which doubles it's strength if it takes damage from a direct attack on the same turn. So if you know you can survive an upcoming attack, you can hit the opponent with a 270 Base Power move, now that IS hefty.

I see 2 problems:

1. You forget that, if you add STAB to CC then its a 180BP move more powerful than Revenge.

2. If it's special ability activates it turns into a 120BP move and won't get Technician boost.

 

[Stagnant]

Accupressure- Boosts the user's Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, Speed, accuracy, or evasion with uniform probability by two stages. In a Double Battle, either the user or the user's ally can be chosen as the target.

Whirlpool*- This move lasts for 2-5 turns as a passive effect, so the user can choose other moves after using this while it is still in effect. It does 1/16 damage at the end of the turn for each turn in effect, and prevents the target from switching. The effect goes away when the user switches, even if the 2-5 turn counter isn't up.

Disable- This move lasts for 2-5 turns as a passive effect, so the user can choose other moves after using this while it is still in effect. It does 1/16 damage at the end of the turn for each turn in effect, and prevents the target from switching. The effect goes away when the user switches, even if the 2-5 turn counter isn't up.

Charm*- Lowers the target's Attack two stages.

Knock Off- Removes the target's item. Has no additional effect on Pokémon with Sticky Hold or Multi-type.

Counter - If hit by a physical attack, returns double the damage done. Does not affect Ghosts, but hits everything else for the same damage.

MirrorCoat - If hit by a special attack, returns double the damage done. Does not affect Darks, but hits everything else for the same damage.

Magic Coat -The following moves will not affect the user of Magic Coat, but rather, are bounced back at their user:

• All moves that induce status as their only effect (including Yawn), except Teeter Dance
• All moves that do no damage but alter the target's stats (including Flatter and Swagger), except Defog and Memento
• Attract
• Block
• Gastro Acid
• Leech Seed
• Mean Look
• Spider Web
• Worry Seed

Taunt- Forces the target to use damaging moves for 3-5 turns. Prevents the use of Assist, Copycat, Me First, Metronome, Mirror Move, and Sleep Talk. Does not prevent the use of Bide, Counter, Endeavor, Metal Burst, or Mirror Coat.

Mirror Move - Uses the last move targeted at the user by a Pokemon that's still on the field. Moves that have more than one target count as long as the Mirror Move user was one of the targets. If the user hasn't been targeted by a move since it has been out, Mirror Move will fail. Mirror Move can copy moves even if they fail, miss, don't affect the target, or are blocked by Protect, Detect, or a Substitute.

Muddy Water - Has a 30% chance to lower the target's accuracy one stage.

Perish Song - All Pokémon on the field faint after 3 turns. Even Pokemon that are in the invulnerable stage of Bounce, Dig, Dive, Fly, and Shadow Force are affected. The effect is removed by switching.

Tickle - Lowers the target's Attack and Defense one stage.

*= Has one or more Counterpart(s).

 

[Bran]

Taunt is undervalued?? Tell that to the Deoxys-S and Gyarados that use it constantly. Plus, Revenge is kinda pointless in this generation, thanks to close combat.

Charm: I think this move is better in some situation than Reflect. It can force switches on the opponent to set yourself up in a better scenerio and more switches for stealth rock/spikes to deal their damage.

Counter/Mirror Coat: These moves have increases in value a bit thanks to the addition of focus sash to guarantee the counter or mirror coat will go through and ensure the OHKO.

Brine: If the opponent is below half health, the BP of this move shoots up to 130. It's kinda situational, but it's a nice move for a revenge kill in addition to having surf if the pokemon has a limited movepool.

 

[monkymeet]

I don't believe Disable does that...

From Smogon:

Prevents the last move the target used from being used again for 4-7 turns. Only one move per target can be Disabled. Disable fails if the targeted move has no remaining PP. The target does nothing if the move it was about to use is Disabled that turn.

 

[Bran]

Disable- This move lasts for 2-5 turns as a passive effect, so the user can choose other moves after using this while it is still in effect. It does 1/16 damage at the end of the turn for each turn in effect, and prevents the target from switching. The effect goes away when the user switches, even if the 2-5 turn counter isn't up.

You must of been thinking of Wrap. monkymeet explained the move already. At least in this generation, it doesn't become totally useless with 80% accuracy.

 

[Khyl]

Revenge

This move was made for Hitmontops with Technician. Here's a quick calculation for you:

60 BP x 1.5 (Technician) = 90
90 x 1.5 (STAB) = 135

That's right, on a Technician Hitmontop, it's more powerful that Close Combat!

Now, you may think, "What about that annoying -3 priority?" Well, remember, Technotops will be carry a variety of Fake Out/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch, so priority is not an issue, as that are alternatives.

But it gets even better, Revenge has a special ability, which doubles it's strength if it takes damage from a direct attack on the same turn. So if you know you can survive an upcoming attack, you can hit the opponent with a 270 Base Power move, now that IS hefty.

I find Revenge to be useful on Hariyama. Hariyama is a defensive Pokemon, and is slow anyways, so he can take the hit, and hit back with an attack as strong as a Close Combat. Speaking of which, using CC on Hariyama is very unfavorable, having your defenses dropped.

The only other viable STAB move on him is Force Palm, which has the same power as an unboosted Revenge, although it does have the paralysis chance. Bottom line, Revenge can be as strong as CC, without worrying about defense drops.

 

[lati0s]

[quote/]Also iirc Technician doesn't boost Revenge when it gets its power boost as it bypasses the 60 BP limit[/quote]

actually im pretty sure you still get the technician boost.
ive never tested it directly but i know that you still get the boost on payback when it's power is doubled, so i assume it would work the same way with revenge

 

[Kietharr]

Although that's based on pure luck. While having the other 50% to your demise.

Its not viable.

It's perfectly viable as a high confusion rate move, but I wouldn't be purposely using it on predominantly physical pokemon, use it on special pokemon or walls that don't care about the attack boost and it just confuses them, letting you set up support stuff. I use it in UU all of the time.

 

[Solidus]

Quick Attack - This move is unreliable for the most part, but in a pinch, it can combat against a 1 HP Salac Berry Reversal(Or Flail) Pokemon when you have no other option.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I'm pretty sure payback isn't minus priority though, in other words, it isn't an avalanche clone, it behaves differently, and can hit first if I remember.

 

[Abacus]

Encore: Anything that tries to set up screens, tries to stat up, sets up rocks, or substitutes hates this move. Both slow and fast encores have their uses; I have had success using Togekiss, Shuckle and Alakazam with this move (could never get Lopunny to work, sadly...). Forces switches and gives you free ones.

U-Turn: Free switch to a counter, great on leads if you win the match-up.

 

[lati0s]

I'm pretty sure payback isn't minus priority though, in other words, it isn't an avalanche clone, it behaves differently, and can hit first if I remember.

that's true but the concept is the same
the move power is doubled making it more than 60 and you still get the technician boost

 

[Chinese Dood]

Rock Tomb/Ice Wind: Use it on switch, and then you can proceed to outspeed and hopefully kill the foe. Best used on tanks.

Also, along with those 2 Speed lowering moves is the other move that nobody remembers, called Mud Shot, which is exactly the same as Icy Wind (same accuracy, pp, base power, both special attacks), except of ground type. Of course not that many pokemon learn it, since it isn't a tutored move in Platinum like Icy Wind is. Kabutops and Mamoswine are the only ones that can learn both.

 

[doc]

Although that's based on pure luck. While having the other 50% to your demise.

Its not viable.

It as more usable in double battles as you can use it on say slowbro since it has own tempo to prevent confusion

 

[MegaMewtwo]

Also, along with those 2 Speed lowering moves is the other move that nobody remembers, called Mud Shot, which is exactly the same as Icy Wind (same accuracy, pp, base power, both special attacks), except of ground type. Of course not that many pokemon learn it, since it isn't a tutored move in Platinum like Icy Wind is. Kabutops and Mamoswine are the only ones that can learn both.

I'm pretty sure Mud Shot doesn't guarantee a speed drop, while the other two do.

 

[Farewell]

Exactly what it says on the box. Here's my contribution:

Swagger - It's definitely a bit of a gamble, but thanks to confusion damage being based on attack it can easily turn the tides against a physical sweeper. I've managed to swagger some lethal physical sweepers who proceeded to kill themselves in one-to-two hits (had to prevent switching first), for example a Rampardos.

Swagger works great against Special Sweepers with low Defense too, like Gengar, Azelf, Alakazam, etc.

Also, it works against low Defense Walls like Blissey. Swagger is like Tricking a Choice Band, you increase the opponent's Attack, but skrew them over in the process, just predict carefully...

 

[Chinese Dood]

I'm pretty sure Mud Shot doesn't guarantee a speed drop, while the other two do.

That's what I mean when I say people just don't know about this move, because it indeed has 100% chance of lowering speed just like the other two.

 

[MegaMewtwo]

That's what I mean when I say people just don't know about this move, because it indeed has 100% chance of lowering speed just like the other two.

Weird. I could've sworn I've seen Mud Shots not lower speed, but it seems you're right.

 

[Tytus]

I've always wondered why Disable isn't used more often. If you're speedy, it makes Choice users useless and forces switches to boot. Not to mention it prevents what was probably your opponents strongest attack from hitting you for a guaranteed four turns.

Very few fast Pokes learn it though; Alakazam and Froslass stand out. I suppose bulky stuff could use it too, Dusknoir and Slowbro get it.

 

[1059860]

SUPER FANG -- Cuts HP in half disregard of how defensive the opponent is.

 

[rippersteveM5]

SUPER FANG -- Cuts HP in half disregard of how defensive the opponent is.

But the only viable users of it are Raticate and Bibarel (Pachirisu wtf). Could maybe work on a tanking Bibarel set. And taking 50% out of Blissey has gotta hurt.

 

[Imran]

Revenge

This move was made for Hitmontops with Technician. Here's a quick calculation for you:

60 BP x 1.5 (Technician) = 90
90 x 1.5 (STAB) = 135

That's right, on a Technician Hitmontop, it's more powerful that Close Combat!

Now, you may think, "What about that annoying -3 priority?" Well, remember, Technotops will be carry a variety of Fake Out/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch, so priority is not an issue, as that are alternatives.

But it gets even better, Revenge has a special ability, which doubles it's strength if it takes damage from a direct attack on the same turn. So if you know you can survive an upcoming attack, you can hit the opponent with a 270 Base Power move, now that IS hefty.

Actually Close Combat is:

120 x 1.5 (STAB) = 180 so no in fact it is not better than Close Combat although I agree that it may be viable as an attacking move due to the fact that most people want their 'Tops to be quite sturdy. I have never however used Hitmontop, so I may be missing something vitally important.

 

[Anti]

Also iirc Technician doesn't boost Revenge when it gets its power boost as it bypasses the 60 BP limit

actually im pretty sure you still get the technician boost.
ive never tested it directly but i know that you still get the boost on payback when it's power is doubled, so i assume it would work the same way with revenge

You don't get the Tech' boost on Pursuit when your opponent switches, so I'd say the same for Revenge. You don't get the Tech' boost on Payback if you get attacked first either.

 

[garo]

Encore: Anything that tries to set up screens, tries to stat up, sets up rocks, or substitutes hates this move. Both slow and fast encores have their uses; I have had success using Togekiss, Shuckle and Alakazam with this move (could never get Lopunny to work, sadly...). Forces switches and gives you free ones.

U-Turn: Free switch to a counter, great on leads if you win the match-up.

encore ruins stat ups and substitutes for sure, but what is exactly the benefit from encoring a reflect or a stealth rock?, the pokes who set up this stuff usually switch out after that or sacrifice themselves, so you encore a stealth rock, he stills set up rocks, switch out, the encore ends and he doesnt even need to sacrifice the poke he was planning to.

also this thread reminds me the "unconventional tactics" thread posted half year ago.