A good in game Pokemon is an offensive Pokemon with decent speed. But Grass is a bad offensive type (Grass, Fire, Poison, Bug, Flying, Steel, Dragon resist it) so it's not the best type ever :) Too bad, Grass starters are my favourite and I always chose the Grass starters first (except in BW / BW2 where I chose Oshawott and then Tepig)
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
I wouldn't say that Grass starters are bad, but comparatively, they tend to not perform as well as the Fire or Water starter.
Due to Grass being a mostly defensive typing, there aren't too many opportunities for it to shine in offensive scenarios. Considering how most ingame teams focus more on speedy/powerful attackers(of which there are very few Grass starters representing that), grass starters tend to be overlooked in favor of more offensive typings.
Gen 3 Sceptile, for example, struggles big time early-mid game, having very little use in gyms 2-6, due to not having any moves during that period over base 70 power(or any truly effective moves at all), but improves a good deal afterwards, then struggles with two members of the Elite Four and is useless against the Champion. Compare this to Blaziken, who is very good early game, only really struggling with gyms 6-8, and performs very well in the Elite Four, or Swampert who has very few problems throughout the entirety of the game.
In Gen 4, Torterra is fine, but suffers from a few problems. It's hideously outclassed by the other two starters performance-wise. Infernape pretty much has everything you need, and is arguably one of the best ingame 'mons in Gen 4. Empoleon has the advantages of having an awesome water/steel typing, with the utility of of a water-type, alongside good all around stats. It also has a fairly poor midgame performance, having very few options to take on gyms 2, 3, 5, and 7.
Gen 5 needs little introduction, what with Samurott pretty much being the only reliable starter to use.
Gen 6 allowed Chesnaught to shine a little bit, but its horribly outclassed ingame by Delphox, and struggles with a few gyms due to being slow.
Due to Grass being a mostly defensive typing, there aren't too many opportunities for it to shine in offensive scenarios. Considering how most ingame teams focus more on speedy/powerful attackers(of which there are very few Grass starters representing that), grass starters tend to be overlooked in favor of more offensive typings.
Gen 3 Sceptile, for example, struggles big time early-mid game, having very little use in gyms 2-6, due to not having any moves during that period over base 70 power(or any truly effective moves at all), but improves a good deal afterwards, then struggles with two members of the Elite Four and is useless against the Champion. Compare this to Blaziken, who is very good early game, only really struggling with gyms 6-8, and performs very well in the Elite Four, or Swampert who has very few problems throughout the entirety of the game.
In Gen 4, Torterra is fine, but suffers from a few problems. It's hideously outclassed by the other two starters performance-wise. Infernape pretty much has everything you need, and is arguably one of the best ingame 'mons in Gen 4. Empoleon has the advantages of having an awesome water/steel typing, with the utility of of a water-type, alongside good all around stats. It also has a fairly poor midgame performance, having very few options to take on gyms 2, 3, 5, and 7.
Gen 5 needs little introduction, what with Samurott pretty much being the only reliable starter to use.
Gen 6 allowed Chesnaught to shine a little bit, but its horribly outclassed ingame by Delphox, and struggles with a few gyms due to being slow.
I've personally have used Venusaur in three different Gens:
Gen I (Yellow): Razor Leaf FTW
Gen III (LeafGreen): I still say it is the best choice as once it starts facing dangerous foes, you should have Water and Fire-types.
Gen VI (X): It was still a very valuable partner on my team...though to be honest, after learning it wouldn't be getting Giga Drain at all, I did trade it over to Alpha Sapphire and used the move tutor (I have BP to spare, especially with Generation VII coming out)...after the first time you get to Lumoise...
Chikorita, while I love the designs of the line, just feels underwhelming when I used it (along with the other two Johto starters) in SoulSilver.
I've never used Sceptile (never really liked the design), mostly since I do liek Mudkips (I can't resist Water/Ground-types).
Torterra is awesome, but I love Infernape (my first Pokémon) and 'ape is just the perfect in-game 'mon.
I do like Serperior's design and I do like Contrary Leaf Storm, but you don't get that in-game. Instead, you have to deal with one of the most boring movepools ever.
I personally have yet to use Chespin outside of the first battle of my current playthrough of X (I took it out since I am using a team of nothing but PU 'mons), but I do like how it plays in competitive (especially now that it has Drain Punch) and I love the design.
Honestly, the main reason most Grass starters aren't among the most beloved Pokémon is simply that they are rarely the best choice. Their underwhelming in-game ability hurts. Though in the case of Venusaur, it really is the design (I like it, but still not as much as Blastoise or Charizard).
Gen I (Yellow): Razor Leaf FTW
Gen III (LeafGreen): I still say it is the best choice as once it starts facing dangerous foes, you should have Water and Fire-types.
Gen VI (X): It was still a very valuable partner on my team...though to be honest, after learning it wouldn't be getting Giga Drain at all, I did trade it over to Alpha Sapphire and used the move tutor (I have BP to spare, especially with Generation VII coming out)...after the first time you get to Lumoise...
Chikorita, while I love the designs of the line, just feels underwhelming when I used it (along with the other two Johto starters) in SoulSilver.
I've never used Sceptile (never really liked the design), mostly since I do liek Mudkips (I can't resist Water/Ground-types).
Torterra is awesome, but I love Infernape (my first Pokémon) and 'ape is just the perfect in-game 'mon.
I do like Serperior's design and I do like Contrary Leaf Storm, but you don't get that in-game. Instead, you have to deal with one of the most boring movepools ever.
I personally have yet to use Chespin outside of the first battle of my current playthrough of X (I took it out since I am using a team of nothing but PU 'mons), but I do like how it plays in competitive (especially now that it has Drain Punch) and I love the design.
Honestly, the main reason most Grass starters aren't among the most beloved Pokémon is simply that they are rarely the best choice. Their underwhelming in-game ability hurts. Though in the case of Venusaur, it really is the design (I like it, but still not as much as Blastoise or Charizard).
Yes. Just yes. The only one with a good movepool (I'm looking at you, Serperior) and stats (Emboar, why are you so slooooowwww? And another Fire/Fighting-type?).
Emboar is decent in game with Flame Charge to help him against his speed. His main problem is his lack of good fighting STAB
Hammer Arm
10 pp ... 90% accuracy ... Drops speed :( and needs a heart scale (but it's easy to find in BW but needs to be backtracked)
10PP really isn't that bad, and 90% accuracy I can deal with. Speed drops are whatever.
Honestly, Torterra is one of my favorite starters. I love tanky Pokemon like it and although I never finished Pearl (Fantina... I hate you.) my Torterra in it was a valuable member of my team and helped sweep a lot of teams.
When you're overleveled and already a slow starter you don't care about that speed drop because everything already outspeeds you or you will probably outspeed people for a while.
My favorite Grass starters have been Bulbasaur, Treecko, and Chespin, mostly due to their higher utility for in-game purposes than others of their type. Unfortunately, I happen to like all of the Kanto, Hoenn, and Kalos starters.
Another opinion, though I'm not sure about its popularity in the fandom: For in-game purposes, I've been thinking about using Pokémon whose artistic designs consist of a shared motif or theme, even if the types don't have optimal elemental synergy with one another. For example, a team based around witchcraft could easily use mons like Delphox, Mismagius, Gothitelle, Gourgeist, Seismitoad, and Lunatone. Has anyone else used Pokémon for the flavor-based side?
Another opinion, though I'm not sure about its popularity in the fandom: For in-game purposes, I've been thinking about using Pokémon whose artistic designs consist of a shared motif or theme, even if the types don't have optimal elemental synergy with one another. For example, a team based around witchcraft could easily use mons like Delphox, Mismagius, Gothitelle, Gourgeist, Seismitoad, and Lunatone. Has anyone else used Pokémon for the flavor-based side?
To some degree, though not like that. That does sound like a fun idea for a playthrough team.
I've always thought it would be neat to actually have NPCs that had themes to their party (aside from what their trainer class usually has them using). Like some other ideas:
Eeveelutions (I think this one would be rather interesting AND you can technically have each Eeveelution as early as Level 2 so you can train them us as you normally would a Starter and early caught wild Pokemon)
Fossil Pokemon (Another interesting idea. Sure they'll all be Rock-types but that would be part of the challenge, especially in games which have a Grass- and Fighting-type Gym Leader/Elite Four (and also Water- and Steel-types to an extent))
Pikaclones (Pikachu family, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu, Emolga, Dedenne. MAYBE Marill if you want to stretch it)(Another interesting one that may be even more limiting and challenging if there's a Ground-type Gym Leader/Elite Four)
No Evolutions (Farfetch'd, Kangaskhan, Pinsir, Tauros, Lapras, Ditto, Aerodactyl, Unown, Girafarig, Dunsparce, Qwilfish, Shuckle, Heracross, Corsola, Delibird, Skarmory, Stantler, Smeargle, Miltank, Sableye, Mawile, Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, Illumise, Torkoal, Spinda, Zangoose, Seviper, Lunatone, Solrock, Castform, Kecleon, Tropius, Absol, Relicanth, Luvdisc, Pachirisu, Chatot, Spiritomb, Carnivine, Rotom, Audino, Throh, Sawk, Basculin, Maractus, Sigilyph, Emolga, Alomomola, Cryogonal, Stunfisk, Druddigon, Bouffalant, Heatmor, Durant, Furfrou, Hawlucha, Dedenne, Carbink, Klefki)(Looking at the list maybe you should limit the list by only using Pokemon with no evolutions in that game's Regional Dex (which maybe even add in some Pokemon that didn't have an evolution at that time). Eitherway could be interesting to see how a Pokemon that doesn't change appearance and general stat wise grows stronger and becomes better and better at its role)
Middle Stage (Ivysaur, Charmeleon, Wartortle, Metapod, Kakuna, Pidgeotto, Nidorina, Nidorino, Gloom, Poliwhirl, Kadabra, Machoke, Weepinbell, Gravaler, Haunter, Dragonair, Bayleef, Quilava, Croconaw, Golbat, Pikachu, Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Flaaffy, Skiploom, Seadra, Pupitar, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp, Silcoon, Cascoon, Lombre, Nuzleaf, Kirlia, Vigoroth, Loudred, Marill, Lairon, Vibrava, Sealeo, Shelgon, Metang, Grotle, Monferno, Prinplup, Staravia, Luxio, Roselia, Gible, Magneton, Rhydon, Electabuzz, Magmar, Togetic, Piloswine, Porygon2, Dusclops, Servine, Pignite, Dewott, Herdier, Tranquill, Boldore, Gurdurr, Palpitoad, Swadloon, Whirlipede, Krokorok, Gothorita, Duosion, Vanillish, Klang, Eelektrik, Lampent, Fraxure, Zweilous, Quilladin, Braixen, Frogadier, Fletchinder, Spewpa, Floetta, Doublade, Sliggoo)(If you're wondering why I have some Pokemon out of order I ordered them when they became a mid evolution. Also, like the previous group, you may want to do this with the Regional Dex but that may remove some Pokemon available who weren't a mid stage by that point. Anyway, an often overlooked and some may even say underappreciated group of Pokemon it would be interesting to experience what these Pokemon have to fully offer)
Gimmick (Ditto, Unwon, Wobbuffet family, Power Trick Shuckle, Present Delibird, Smeargle, Slakoth/Slaking, Shedinja, Normalize Skitty, Castform, Kecleon, Order move Vespiquen, Sunny Day Cherrim, Rotom, Zen Mode Darmanitan, Yamask family, Archen family, Zorua family, Protean Greninja, Meowstic, Aegislash, Inkay family, Metronome user, Nature Power user, Secret Power user)(Now what counts as a gimmick may vary but I consider it having Signature Moves or/and Abilities which would greatly effect the way you play them be it by design or choice. Sure a lot more Pokemon could fall under that rule but I consider the ones I mentioned the most notable. I don't think I need to explain why this idea is interesting)
Pseudo Legendary (You could also add in Pokemon who's level of evolution is abnormally high. Anyway the idea here would be to see how a Pokemon who take a long time to fully evolve gets there and when they do watch them dominate)
Early Bug (Caterpie fam, Weedle fam, Ledyba fam, Spinarak fam, Wurmple fam, Kricketot fam, Burmy fam, Sewaddle fam, Scatterbug fam)
Early Bird (Pidgey fam, Spearow fam, Hoothoot fam, Taillow fam, Wingull fam, Starly fam, Pidove fam, Fletchling fam)
Early Rodent (Rattata fam, Sentret fam, Zigzagoon fam, Bidoof fan, Patrat fam, Bunnelby fam)
Canine (Growlith fam, Snubbull fam, Houndour fam, Smeargle, Poochyena fam, Electrike fam, Riolu fam, Lillipup fam, Furfrou)
Feline (Meowth fam, Skitty fam, Absol, Shinx fam, Glameow fam, Purrloin fam, Litleo fam, Espurr fam)
Pokemon Traits (Egg Group, Color, Body Style)
Admittedly these are very simple theme, but hey, if you have an idea for a theme here's the National Dex.
Fossil Pokemon (Another interesting idea. Sure they'll all be Rock-types but that would be part of the challenge, especially in games which have a Grass- and Fighting-type Gym Leader/Elite Four (and also Water- and Steel-types to an extent))
Pikaclones (Pikachu family, Plusle, Minun, Pachirisu, Emolga, Dedenne. MAYBE Marill if you want to stretch it)(Another interesting one that may be even more limiting and challenging if there's a Ground-type Gym Leader/Elite Four)
No Evolutions (Farfetch'd, Kangaskhan, Pinsir, Tauros, Lapras, Ditto, Aerodactyl, Unown, Girafarig, Dunsparce, Qwilfish, Shuckle, Heracross, Corsola, Delibird, Skarmory, Stantler, Smeargle, Miltank, Sableye, Mawile, Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, Illumise, Torkoal, Spinda, Zangoose, Seviper, Lunatone, Solrock, Castform, Kecleon, Tropius, Absol, Relicanth, Luvdisc, Pachirisu, Chatot, Spiritomb, Carnivine, Rotom, Audino, Throh, Sawk, Basculin, Maractus, Sigilyph, Emolga, Alomomola, Cryogonal, Stunfisk, Druddigon, Bouffalant, Heatmor, Durant, Furfrou, Hawlucha, Dedenne, Carbink, Klefki)(Looking at the list maybe you should limit the list by only using Pokemon with no evolutions in that game's Regional Dex (which maybe even add in some Pokemon that didn't have an evolution at that time). Eitherway could be interesting to see how a Pokemon that doesn't change appearance and general stat wise grows stronger and becomes better and better at its role)
Middle Stage (Ivysaur, Charmeleon, Wartortle, Metapod, Kakuna, Pidgeotto, Nidorina, Nidorino, Gloom, Poliwhirl, Kadabra, Machoke, Weepinbell, Gravaler, Haunter, Dragonair, Bayleef, Quilava, Croconaw, Golbat, Pikachu, Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Flaaffy, Skiploom, Seadra, Pupitar, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp, Silcoon, Cascoon, Lombre, Nuzleaf, Kirlia, Vigoroth, Loudred, Marill, Lairon, Vibrava, Sealeo, Shelgon, Metang, Grotle, Monferno, Prinplup, Staravia, Luxio, Roselia, Gible, Magneton, Rhydon, Electabuzz, Magmar, Togetic, Piloswine, Porygon2, Dusclops, Servine, Pignite, Dewott, Herdier, Tranquill, Boldore, Gurdurr, Palpitoad, Swadloon, Whirlipede, Krokorok, Gothorita, Duosion, Vanillish, Klang, Eelektrik, Lampent, Fraxure, Zweilous, Quilladin, Braixen, Frogadier, Fletchinder, Spewpa, Floetta, Doublade, Sliggoo)(If you're wondering why I have some Pokemon out of order I ordered them when they became a mid evolution. Also, like the previous group, you may want to do this with the Regional Dex but that may remove some Pokemon available who weren't a mid stage by that point. Anyway, an often overlooked and some may even say underappreciated group of Pokemon it would be interesting to experience what these Pokemon have to fully offer)
Gimmick (Ditto, Unwon, Wobbuffet family, Power Trick Shuckle, Present Delibird, Smeargle, Slakoth/Slaking, Shedinja, Normalize Skitty, Castform, Kecleon, Order move Vespiquen, Sunny Day Cherrim, Rotom, Zen Mode Darmanitan, Yamask family, Archen family, Zorua family, Protean Greninja, Meowstic, Aegislash, Inkay family, Metronome user, Nature Power user, Secret Power user)(Now what counts as a gimmick may vary but I consider it having Signature Moves or/and Abilities which would greatly effect the way you play them be it by design or choice. Sure a lot more Pokemon could fall under that rule but I consider the ones I mentioned the most notable. I don't think I need to explain why this idea is interesting)
Pseudo Legendary (You could also add in Pokemon who's level of evolution is abnormally high. Anyway the idea here would be to see how a Pokemon who take a long time to fully evolve gets there and when they do watch them dominate)
Early Bug (Caterpie fam, Weedle fam, Ledyba fam, Spinarak fam, Wurmple fam, Kricketot fam, Burmy fam, Sewaddle fam, Scatterbug fam)
Early Bird (Pidgey fam, Spearow fam, Hoothoot fam, Taillow fam, Wingull fam, Starly fam, Pidove fam, Fletchling fam)
Early Rodent (Rattata fam, Sentret fam, Zigzagoon fam, Bidoof fan, Patrat fam, Bunnelby fam)
Canine (Growlith fam, Snubbull fam, Houndour fam, Smeargle, Poochyena fam, Electrike fam, Riolu fam, Lillipup fam, Furfrou)
Feline (Meowth fam, Skitty fam, Absol, Shinx fam, Glameow fam, Purrloin fam, Litleo fam, Espurr fam)
Pokemon Traits (Egg Group, Color, Body Style)
Admittedly these are very simple theme, but hey, if you have an idea for a theme here's the National Dex.
There were a couple collectors in Platinum; one of who had a team of the Kanto eeveelutions and the other of which had a team of Espeon and Umbreon. Collectors were always some of my favourite trainers for that sorta gimmick; there was another who had a team of Honey Tree 'mon and another who had a team of Safari Zone 'mon.
I like how scientists use x items, although in practice they get OHKOd before they can do anything with it. Didn't jugglers used to switch out their Pokemon all the time too? I wouldn't mind seeing gimmicky trainers too that use say FEAR Rattata or Toxic Orb Facade.
I always thought Kadabra had a much cooler and interesting design than Alakazam. He has that sweet tail and mysterious red marking.
I always thought Kadabra had a much cooler and interesting design than Alakazam. He has that sweet tail and mysterious red marking.
Oh God, please no. The amount of bullshit FEAR team puts you through in competitive play is hair-tearing enough as it is (fuck the Sturdy buff in Gen 5 - one of the most stupid shit about the game apart from the useless starters ; worse in all generations by far). The Shell Bell Aron, Sturdy+Recycle+Berry Juice Magnemite, etc. was so stupid unless you have Rocks up or Mold Breaker. This is much more bullshit when you consider that the average player plows through the game with 4 attacks mon and don't use Stealth Rock or status apart from para and sleep often.
Just be glad that Aron can't learn Bullet Punch. That would be the only way FEAR would ever be mostly competitive and less of a gimmick.
(For bored people, it is legal in STABmons...)
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Still a bullshit that wastes your time and is very cheap to lose 1 Pokemon to unless you have a Ghost-type (Ttar's Sand Stream cancels your 1 HP left and it can Pursuit Ghosts).
EDIT: I forgot that Taillow can learn Endeavour. Anyway, I still see FEAR in OU when I go play sometimes. It's incredibly annoying, just as much as Evasion and Baton Pass.
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I think the only time I've ever seen FEAR actually used when I play is when I've used it.
And it is cute how you think Ghosts are safe as my FEAR Taillow once knocked out a Giratina. Scrappy is evil.
So Random Passerby sometimes see FEAR in OU when Vader_the_White only sees it when he's using it. Are you sure you weren't battling each other? :P
Nope as I've never used it in OU. Just in Anything Goes where I have six FEAR Taillow. And once when I tried it out against an acquaintance (the aforementioned Giratina). And I have tried to use it in STABmons, but I have never gotten a chance to send it out.
Okay, I'm bring this back since I just had an idea for such a team:
The Unloved Ones; or the Team of Misfit 'Mons
What do I mean by that? Simple: using nothing but Pokémon that are virtually no one's favorites. Ranging from despised (Lickilicki, Garbodor, Vanilluxe) to the merely forgettable (Lumineon), it would make for an interesting playthrough team.
If anyone has any more suggestions of this idea, please, tell me since I might try this out. Mostly to give Garbodor, Vanilluxe (who has surprisingly decent stats), and Lumineon their time in the sun.
