Unpopular opinions

[Adeleine]

I wish it was not so, but I see visuals (distinct from graphics quality) and music as core parts of the Pokemon main games, and in-game challenge play just not as a core part. By in-game challenge play, I mean things like battle facilities, challenge modes, and post-game challenge battles. That's distinct from player vs player wifi or local battling.

When I think of the generations GF really cared about in-game challenge play, I think of 3 (introduced Battle Tower), 4 (Battle Frontier and stuff like Gym Rematches), and 5 (multiple things, Challenge Mode sticks out). Other generations carried over some of these things, but unless I forgot about things, the drive to break new ground for in-game challenge play is not there anymore. It's a phase the main games went through, like how "proper" turn-by-turn combat is a phase the Paper Mario games went through.

Gens 6, 7, and 8 seem to have cared considerably more about cross-player battling, with Super Training, Bottle Caps, IV and breeding changes, and the whole shebang. Is this another "phase"? Maybe, but maybe not, since I see cross-player interaction as more core than in-game challenge play.

 

[Lightchao42]

Gens 6, 7, and 8 seem to have cared considerably more about cross-player battling, with Super Training, Bottle Caps, IV and breeding changes, and the whole shebang. Is this another "phase"? Maybe, but maybe not, since I see cross-player interaction as more core than in-game challenge play.

I considering using competitive play as an example in my post of something that isn't "needed" (though of course I don't think a Battle Frontier is quite comparable to music and color, even if a soundless, monochrome Pokémon game would still sell millions). But TPC has ways of making money off competitive players beyond the sales of the games, which is probably the reason why GF is making it more accessible recently.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Despite never caring much for the Battle Frontier myself, I always thought "why include a Battle Frontier, the games sell just fine without it" is a silly way of thinking. Well duh, it's Pokémon, of course it'll sell without a Battle Frontier. I'm sure the games would sell just fine without music, so why does GF even bother with soundtracks? Who needs color either, let's go back to the classic black and white of the Game Boy (was it black and white? I never had an original GB). It doesn't mean GF shouldn't add those features for the people who like them.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be in the games. They could make a Battle Frontier app game and it'll probably sell really well, especially if they put the minimal effort into it (use GBA & DS level of sprites & graphics to save time, fans would also get a kick seeing the Gen VI+ Pokemon in sprite form). GF don't even need to be the ones to do it, get Genius Sonority. The only thing they're doing right now is *looks it up* oh, they're the ones who did Cafe Mix. Well, they can work on two games at once, Cafe Mix is already done and they're just releasing new Pokemon employees. A battle sim game should be easy enough to do on the side. Heck, I'd suggest even making it part of HOME's premium service but that's assuming GF actually wants to make HOME more than a glorified prison...

 

[ttr]

I wish it was not so, but I see visuals (distinct from graphics quality) and music as core parts of the Pokemon main games, and in-game challenge play just not as a core part. By in-game challenge play, I mean things like battle facilities, challenge modes, and post-game challenge battles. That's distinct from player vs player wifi or local battling.

When I think of the generations GF really cared about in-game challenge play, I think of 3 (introduced Battle Tower), 4 (Battle Frontier and stuff like Gym Rematches), and 5 (multiple things, Challenge Mode sticks out). Other generations carried over some of these things, but unless I forgot about things, the drive to break new ground for in-game challenge play is not there anymore. It's a phase the main games went through, like how "proper" turn-by-turn combat is a phase the Paper Mario games went through.

Gens 6, 7, and 8 seem to have cared considerably more about cross-player battling, with Super Training, Bottle Caps, IV and breeding changes, and the whole shebang. Is this another "phase"? Maybe, but maybe not, since I see cross-player interaction as more core than in-game challenge play.

I wholeheartedly believe once the VGC / BSS formats really took off the single player battle facilities took a back seat. While the games are current, the online formats offer much more dynamic competition (imo) than the battle facilities, especially when in person competitions were possible / feasible. It probably is not a coincidence that around the same time as the battle facilities got less love the competitive scene began to heat up. While in the long run though once the online servers go down (as they usually do) the investment in online competition seems wasted, however I think it is fine for what they are aiming for. Online / in-person competition offers something unique that is "difficult" to replicate in the battle facilities. (BIG HOWEVER: they could replicate it though, I would love to see something like the downloadable World Championship Tournament that B2/W2 had, with actual teams used in the Pokemon VGC Championships used in the PWT, but it is difficult to do at the time, you need to know how the metagame develops to make these teams).

It's odd, I would love more investment in battle facilities to give me something more to come back to the old games for, but I really love more the recent focus on the online / in-person competitions. When the games are current, the online ladder offers fantastic competition with fun and innovative teams constantly being used. the constantly evolving sets really works in the favor of the online / in-person competitions, giving new challenges instead of what the developers thought of beforehand. I just wish they preserved the online competitions better.

 

[Siggu]

It's odd, I would love more investment in battle facilities to give me something more to come back to the old games for, but I really love more the recent focus on the online / in-person competitions. When the games are current, the online ladder offers fantastic competition with fun and innovative teams constantly being used. the constantly evolving sets really works in the favor of the online / in-person competitions, giving new challenges instead of what the developers thought of beforehand. I just wish they preserved the online competitions better.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

I'm on the idea that Pokémon is just meant to be "play the main story once, keep playing until the next games come, and never return".

 

[ttr]

I don't see that happening any time soon.

I'm on the idea that Pokémon is just meant to be "play the main story once, keep playing until the next games come, and never return".

I was mainly thinking the same as the VGC tournament I mentioned, throw in some actual competition teams / players in an update to the battle facility roster as the competitions happen. They could even have people at say rank 1 on the ladder's teams saved as well. It's mainly something that I think can liven up the roster while the metagame is ongoing, and give something to be able to go back to and go "oh, that team was good."

 

[Sonikku A]

Glaceon is mediocre design
And it looking like a generic anime girl for the "hair" makes me suddenly realize why so many furries and weebs like it
Which brings me to another point. Eeveelution body types stopped being unique after Gen 2

Seen in silhouette, all after Espeon are thin bodied, no protrusions, with the only difference being ear shape, color, and tail. It makes it seem cookie cutter for a supposed hyper evolving species

 

[DrPumpkinz]

no protrusions

I'm sorry, what do you describe these as?

 

[Sonikku A]

I'm sorry, what do you describe these as?
View attachment 310614View attachment 310615

Leafeon I agree, though it needed to be more

Sylveon noticeably is really only the neck, and looks fake as heck

 

[p0ip0le]

glaceon having a mediocre design is a popular take, and ALL the eeveelutions have the same small, thin, cat-like body, not just "the ones after espeon"

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Glaceon sucks. Leafeon and Sylveon are nice.

 

[Codraroll]

I don't see that happening any time soon.

I'm on the idea that Pokémon is just meant to be "play the main story once, keep playing until the next games come, and never return".

Yes, but what is there left to keep playing for, when the story is made so simple and the region so small you can beat it in a day or two, and there is no postgame? The games have somewhat limited replay value because starting over means deleting your entire progress, but they also distinctly lack things to do aside from multiplayer once the main story is over. The result is that you play for a week or two when they come out, put them away, wait for the next game, and repeat the pattern.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Seen in silhouette, all after Espeon are thin bodied, no protrusions, with the only difference being ear shape, color, and tail. It makes it seem cookie cutter for a supposed hyper evolving species

Ugh, the silhouette argument again. YOU CAN'T USE THE SILHOUTTE ARGUEMENT FOR EVERY DESIGN SITUATION.

For example, in a more action-based multiplayer game where you can see the silhouette of other player's characters through solid objects to know where they are that is a situation appropriate for the silhouette argument. I'm thinking of the likes of Team Fortress 2 or Overwatch. I think in those games it's only the silhouette you have to know what character you're seeing through the object, therefore for the player to understand the situation they're seeing and to make the decision to go in or fall back they must be able to tell what characters/classes are involved from a quick glance. This is where silhouette becomes important, every character should have a unique silhouette. It goes beyond just having the character look good and distinct, there is an additional gameplay value to the silhouette being unique.

However, Pokemon is a turn-based game where once you engage in a battle (whether Wild or against a Trainer) you always know the current opponent you're facing. Therefore, the silhouette is not as important, the only time a silhouette may be used is with a Wild Battle to build-up some excitement about what Pokemon you're encountering. Because of this, SILHOUTTES ARE NOT IMPORTANT IN POKEMON. GF aren't designing every Pokemon thinking "if someone see this Pokemon as a silhouette would they be able to tell them apart?". With some Pokemon they probably do like the Starters and Legendary, but even then the design focus is more on the actual body shape and details rather then conforming the Pokemon to a certain silhouette. Pokemon wants you to see a Pokemon's detail and colors, because that's the part of the Pokemon which is most recognizable (likely because from that you can then guess Typing and possible Abilities & Moves; a silhouette of a Pokemon ain't good for that).

So going back to the discussion in hand, who cares if Eeveelutions after Gen II don't have drastically different silhouettes. The question should be whether the Eeveelution's designs get across what Type it's supposed to be.

• Vaporeon turns blue, ears/mane turn into fins, & tail becomes a fish tail; it's now an aquatic creature so Water-type.
• Jolteon turns yellow & ears/mane/fur all over its body becomes spiky; looks like it was just struck by lightning so Electric-type.
• Flareon's body fur turns red while its mane/hair tuft/tail turns yellow and becomes more puffy; it looks like it's formed of fire so Fire-type.
• Espeon turns lavender, a round jewel appears on its forehead, eyes glow, & tail has forked; sadly the symbiology of the tail is lost of most western viewers but the glowing eyes and forehead jewel may bring to mind mystics or fortunetellers so alludes to supernatural abilities, so Psychic-type since it's no dead thus can't be Ghost-type.
• Umbreon turns black, has red eyes, & glowing yellow rings which brings to mind the moon; it's a creature you don't want encountering in the darkness so Dark-type.
• Leafeon's body turns yellow but it's tail/tips of ears/hair tuft take on a green leafy appearance & has green leafy fur sprouts appear on its chest and legs; its a planimal now so Grass-type.
• Sylveon turns pink, eyes turn light-blue and bug-like light, ears become more roundish, & gains bows and ribbons; it's very feminine with a touch of insect that then could bring to mind modern day depiction of fairies which are small woman with insect wings so Fairy-type.

So, what about Glaceon? Well it turns cyan/light blue which that alone could bring to mind the Ice-type. However after that you do sort of need to read inbetween the lines to confirm that suspicion. It doesn't have Ice on its body, rather its hair tuft turns rigid & blue growing too long bangs. In addition the ears and tip of its tail becomes more angular and uses the same darker color blue, a blue that also colors its feet and diamonds on its back. It's not your typical depiction of ice which is, well, ice but rather a vague notion of ice crystals. The reason for this is likely because, despite the ice crystal depiction, Glaceon is more associated with snow than hard ice. They probably designed it with the thought in mind that it hunts and hides in snow so this would be natural camouflage with additional design details to make it more visually appealing hence the hairdo. Glaceon certainly isn't winning the award for best Eeveelution design but I do think it does represent its Typing. I mean, you say Glaceon doesn't look like an Ice-type so does that mean you also think Dewgong, Jynx family, Lapras, Articuno, Swinub, Sneasel family, Delibird, Spheal family, & Arctovish also don't look like Ice-types?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

For as much as the Pokemon fandom mocks the reasons Masuda gave for the Battle Frontier not being in ORAS, I think he has a point and these kids who were born around/shortly before the time ORAS came out are now going to restaurants (Or at least were a year ago) and their parents are just yeeting an iPad in front of them. The number of upvotes for "This is what the Battle Frontier is going to be in DP remakes" memes with pictures of the SwSh battle tower just can't compare to the number of sales for Pokemon games and at the end of the day the people who wanted the Battle Frontier in ORAS are just a very vocal minority.

See, there's just a teensy-tiny problem with the whole "Pokémon is still going to sell." argument.

As a consumer, would you rather play a terrifyingly dull game with N64-tier textures, little to no replayability because of the outrageous amounts of walls of text that just freeze any sort of pacing cold, non-existent difficulty or you'd like to have an actual polished game? And I didn't even mention the Frontier on that argument.

This nihilist argument of "Nothing cares, Pokémon still sells" is the kind of thinking that turned the Sonic franchise into a complete joke. I could probably think of some others too, I heard Halo is well on its way to become a lolcow too.

Think about the devs too. Crunches to shit out a bunch of mediocre nothingburgers without an ounce of ambition in them. What a fulfilling working experience.

You're totally right that more families have iPads than 3DSes or Switches, but for the families that do have a Nintendo console, particularly a portable one, why would parents shove and iPad in a child's face rather than their Nintendo console with better games?

That's the flaw with the reasoning.

Yeahhhhh... That ain't how things roll. Parents that would just slap a phone in a kid's hand so they get to divert their endless energy into it have little to no concern about the quality of the content their kids get and/or the kids just fumble around and find other stuff anyway.

On the other hand, there is some merit in parents having a bit more control with a Switch, but they'll probably just buy games their kids want because explaining that SwSh is mediocre compared to Golden Age games like Emerald, BW1 and GOAT Platinum is a bit of a chore.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be in the games. They could make a Battle Frontier app game and it'll probably sell really well, especially if they put the minimal effort into it (use GBA & DS level of sprites & graphics to save time, fans would also get a kick seeing the Gen VI+ Pokemon in sprite form). GF don't even need to be the ones to do it, get Genius Sonority. The only thing they're doing right now is *looks it up* oh, they're the ones who did Cafe Mix. Well, they can work on two games at once, Cafe Mix is already done and they're just releasing new Pokemon employees. A battle sim game should be easy enough to do on the side. Heck, I'd suggest even making it part of HOME's premium service but that's assuming GF actually wants to make HOME more than a glorified prison...

Well, that's the idea with the old Stadium Spinoffs and PBR.

Truth be told, I fully expect things like the entire Battle Zone (Frontier Included) to be DLC in the potential Sinnoh Remakes. Unless they specifically add new content, which would be a bit of a task with how much stuff Sinnoh got to begin with.

I wholeheartedly believe once the VGC / BSS formats really took off the single player battle facilities took a back seat. While the games are current, the online formats offer much more dynamic competition (imo) than the battle facilities, especially when in person competitions were possible / feasible. It probably is not a coincidence that around the same time as the battle facilities got less love the competitive scene began to heat up. While in the long run though once the online servers go down (as they usually do) the investment in online competition seems wasted, however I think it is fine for what they are aiming for. Online / in-person competition offers something unique that is "difficult" to replicate in the battle facilities. (BIG HOWEVER: they could replicate it though, I would love to see something like the downloadable World Championship Tournament that B2/W2 had, with actual teams used in the Pokemon VGC Championships used in the PWT, but it is difficult to do at the time, you need to know how the metagame develops to make these teams).

It's odd, I would love more investment in battle facilities to give me something more to come back to the old games for, but I really love more the recent focus on the online / in-person competitions. When the games are current, the online ladder offers fantastic competition with fun and innovative teams constantly being used. the constantly evolving sets really works in the favor of the online / in-person competitions, giving new challenges instead of what the developers thought of beforehand. I just wish they preserved the online competitions better.

I don't really play online, so I gotta ask, how is it? Is the whole "Battle Timer" controversy justified or is it just a bunch of nonsense?

I don't see that happening any time soon.

I'm on the idea that Pokémon is just meant to be "play the main story once, keep playing until the next games come, and never return".

Top 10 WOAT Takes in the thread. Put this one in the Hall of Shame.

Imagine playing GOAT Platinum, shutting the game off after Cynthia and saying "A'ight. That was cool. Time to sell the game on eBay since I'll never play it again."

There's a reason certain games like Ocarina of Time are still highly regarded even decades after their release. A true masterpiece is created to be experienced more than once.

 

[Siggu]

Top 10 WOAT Takes in the thread. Put this one in the Hall of Shame.

Imagine playing GOAT Platinum, shutting the game off after Cynthia and saying "A'ight. That was cool. Time to sell the game on eBay since I'll never play it again."

There's a reason certain games like Ocarina of Time are still highly regarded even decades after their release. A true masterpiece is created to be experienced more than once.

You keep playing until HeartGold and SoulSilver, the new games, come out, and then you don't return to Platinum.

I don't think Game Freak designs Pokémon to be replayable. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on one's preferences (to me it's just a bonus; heck, most of my favourite games have NO replay value whatsoever).

Outside of that one time I accidentally deleted my VC Red savegame, I don't remember if I've ever replayed a Pokémon game. Just a single savegame until the next game comes out, and then "goodbye".

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You keep playing until HeartGold and SoulSilver, the new games, come out, and then you don't return to Platinum.

I don't think Game Freak designs Pokémon to be replayable. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on one's preferences (to me it's just a bonus; heck, most of my favourite games have NO replay value whatsoever).

Outside of that one time I accidentally deleted my VC Red savegame, I don't remember if I've ever replayed a Pokémon game. Just a single savegame until the next game comes out, and then "goodbye".

You heard it here first fellas. The game that has a gigantic emphasis on the number of options you can build a team with and trade with friends is NOT meant to be replayed.

By the way, just what exactly do you mean by "keep playing until the next one comes out?" Playing what? A lot of these games didn't even have online options, to begin with.

 

[Siggu]

You heard it here first fellas. The game that has a gigantic emphasis on the number of options you can build a team with and trade with friends is NOT meant to be replayed.

With its huge emphasis on keeping a collection, until Bank and HOME were released, it was almost impossible to replay a game without losing everything you had (you needed another console or make a very extensive trading process).

... and by the point that drawback is gone, there's a new game.

But now with Bank and HOME one could truly replay to their heart's desire... as difficult as it might be for me to find a reason.

 

[Adeleine]

Mainline mons games just don't have the depth and cost-benefit for me and many others to justify dumping a hundred hours into them.

Having more options to build a team with, like Plat does have, helps depth and cost-benefit for that depth somewhat, but they aren't enough for me. Still the same cities, cutscenes, music, battles, characters, grinding pools, etc. Sure, I still could spend a hundred hours to truly experience Plat's teambuilding variety against the same set of obstacles...

Or... I could play a different route in Three Houses, which also has intricate team composition you can't fully experience on one playthrough, but also has many totally new characters, music, story developments, and battles. I could play a new world in Terraria, which has intricate loadout composition you can't fully experience the first time through and an almost completely rebuilt environment. Hell, I could replay a Persona game, and re-experience a much deeper story/character set and use difficulty settings to better experience the depth of team composition.

Only reasons I'd dump that much time in a mons game are if I'm specifically targeting one feature (e.g. battle facility) or it's been a long time since I last played so that novelty returns. There are features that people find worthy of targeting, but like, not only do new games also have those kinds of features, GF has made some of them better (breeding, shiny hunting, wifi-competitive teambuilding, and wifi battling come to mind). They don't have everything games like Plat had (Battle Factory...), but Battle Factory (not facilities as a whole) is the single feature that may possibly convince me personally to dump that kind of time into a mons game. And it hasn't yet.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

With its huge emphasis on keeping a collection, until Bank and HOME were released, it was almost impossible to replay a game without losing everything you had (you needed another console or make a very extensive trading process).

Ah, I see, you're more of a collector.

I still don't agree with your view, because I think you're missing out on the value of games with good replayability, but now I get where you're coming from.

Having more options to build a team with, like Plat does have, helps depth and cost-benefit for that depth somewhat, but they aren't enough for me. Still the same cities, cutscenes, music, battles, characters, grinding pools, etc. Sure, I still could spend a hundred hours to truly experience Plat's teambuilding variety against the same set of obstacles...

Or... I could play a different route in Three Houses, which also has intricate team composition you can't fully experience on one playthrough, but also has many totally new characters, music, story developments, and battles. I could play a new world in Terraria, which has intricate loadout composition you can't fully experience the first time through and an almost completely rebuilt environment. Hell, I could replay a Persona game, and experience a much deeper story/character set and use difficulty settings to better experience the depth of team composition.

Training teams in-game is more organic and enjoyable than just breeding and grinding endlessly against whatever optimal methods the game got.

And there's the problem, while I can just save my team in another cart (Or backup the whole save in other ways), it's just not enjoyable to replay games that have bad pacing like USUM.

Also, a bit unfair to bring the likes of 3H that actually focus on replayability instead of post-game or online battling. I dunno, looks a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Codraroll]

SILHOUTTES ARE NOT IMPORTANT IN POKEMON

They definitely are, just not for purposes of gameplay in the games. The many different silhouettes of Pokémon help make them easily distinguishable.

 

[Solemn6]

They definitely are, just not for purposes of gameplay in the games. The many different silhouettes of Pokémon help make them easily distinguishable.

This. Silhouettes have got to be my favorite thing about Pokémon. Remember when we saw the shadow of melmetal, and later on, zarude and everyone just went to town? Definitely better then the “mysterious glitch” thing with sirfetch’d where everyone and their mother knew it was a farfetch’d evo

 

[Siggu]

This. Silhouettes have got to be my favorite thing about Pokémon. Remember when we saw the shadow of melmetal, and later on, zarude and everyone just went to town? Definitely better then the “mysterious glitch” thing with sirfetch’d where everyone and their mother knew it was a farfetch’d evo

Well, to be fair with that example, even if it was just a silhouette, most people would have guessed it was a Farfetch'd evolution because it's a bird with duck feet and a gigantic stick object.

Hide

 

[Adeleine]

Also, a bit unfair to bring the likes of 3H that actually focus on replayability instead of post-game or online battling. I dunno, looks a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

The comparison I made is just the reality that explains how people behave, regardless of its fairness. If I have three games that compete for Pokemon's time, all of which share many strengths with it and are on the same consoles (Q2 re persona), and Pokemon is the least deep, has the least rewarding postgame, and is the least rewarding to replay of the group, I probably won't put 100 hours into it.

 

[Solemn6]

Well, to be fair with that example, even if it was just a silhouette, most people would have guessed it was a Farfetch'd evolution because it's a bird with duck feet and a gigantic stick object.

Hide

View attachment 310747

Uhh... what do you mean? It’s obviously a weird galarian lillipup with a baseball bat tail

 

[Bakugames]

I still think the eeveelutions past gen 1 were a mistake (well, not financially), but thats old news

I don't think most pokémon games have that much replayability unless you're a shiny hunter. Can't say about platinum since I dropped that one as soon as I finished the main plot but even the games I really like are pretty unremarkable... I just play them to shiny hunt so I end up having a lot of playtime lol