Unpopular opinions

[Sonikku A]

What are you classifying as a "gimmick" Pokemon? I cannot discern any pattern.

Tangela and Lickitung are just... Pokemon. Same with Roselia, Torkoal, Tropius, and Chimecho. Certainly less gimmicky than Miss-Obscenely-High-HP-Without-Any-Defense, Stupid-Duck-That-Only Exists-As-A-Pun, Weak-Fish-That-Becomes-A-Dragon, or Cloud-With-Tits-That-Changes-Form-Based-On-The-Weather.

I still wanna smack the guy that designed that, but yeah

A gimmick isn't "every paired mon" or "every single stage mon". Gimmicks need some sort of definition. Otherwise every generic mon is a gimmick mon
Let's look at the first 3 gens
Gen1;
-Farfetch'd is a gag hard to get that's weak as hell
-Magikarp is a high maintenance pathetic mon to become Gyarados
-Nido line being Gender exclusive
-Chansey being a hyper min maxed mon that's rare
-Ditto transforming when no one else bar Mew can
-Eevee's many evos

Gen 2;
-Dunsparce being intended to be rare and weak
-Wobuffet being incapable of direct attack
-Unown... just having Hidden Power
-Blissey being an even bigger min maxed mon
-Smeargle being capable of learning any move via Sketch
-Suudowoodo being deceptively rock
-Roamers technically (So the beast trio)

Gen 3
-Wurmple random evo chance
-Volbeat/Illumise being a gendered pair (though this barely counts)
-The Plusle/Minun pair in both being a Pikaclone, AND being so double team oriented in build
-Kecleon being the mon GF designed around an ability, noticeably being the first to show it off early
-Shedinja being a literal shed shell
-Slakoth/Slaking for Truant beasts
-Chimecho for hyper rarity
-Feebas being Magikarp 2.0
-Spinda 360 + spots
-Castform being weather reliant
-Lati Twins as roamers
-Deoxys being form cart reliant
-Altaria for being deceptively a dragon

Note that all of these are either a weak joke, incredibly rare, hyper odd for stats, or feature a new mechanic exclusive. Not "oh every paired mon" or "every single stage"

 

[Pikachu315111]

Ugh, what counts as a gimmick Pokemon is going to be a huge discussion that I don't have the time for right now.

Right now all I'll says is that the definition of a gimmick Pokemon has somewhat changed over the years. In recent times they generally apply to a Pokemon with a unique Ability, Move, or some other mechanic they only have. However in the early days a gimmick usually more had to do with how you got the Pokemon and it's "role" than more about it's design. To start off, here are what I think the "Gimmick" Pokemon of Gen I were and why:

• Pikachu: Yes, believe it or not, I do think Pikachu counts as a gimmick Pokemon even in the original Red & Blue. As the story goes, Kōji Nishino liked Pikachu so much he didn't want players to find it easily, so he placed it early in the game in Viridian Forest with a low encounter rate (guess he either didn't know or wasn't allowed to remove it from the Power Plant where it was more commonly found). Of course, his plan backfired and many players did find it, but in a way this resulted in Pikachu sort of being a tutorial Pokemon of sorts that some locations have rarely encountered Pokemon. And of course its popularity from the manga and anime made this early rare appearance even more special.
  
  
• Nidoran: A very loose gimmick as otherwise they're normal Pokemon. It was the very first attempt to have sexual dimorphism in the game with the limited technology they had. This is a more world building gimmick as the real world is full of animals that genders look different from one another, so to make the Pokemon world feel naturally it would have some too. In later gens they would be able to actually do sexual dimorphism in a few ways while keeping it all one species/family. But for both Nidoran's family the only thing connecting them is that a female Nidoran can lay eggs of a male Nidoran.
  
  
• Farfetch'd: We all know why it's here. Meant as a sort of prank and a pun on the phrase its based on, you trade a commonly found Spearow for what you think is a rare and powerful Pokemon. And while Farfecth'd is a BIT more powerful then Spearow at first, it'll soon become deadweight as you play through the game and all your other Pokemon get stronger. Not only that, had you trained a Spearow instead, it would have eventually evolved into the more powerful Fearow. Farfecth'd is rare but that's all it had going for it, it was weak in battle otherwise and meant as a joke and maybe to teach them that just because its rare doesn't mean its good (or maybe a lesson of patience instead of seeking immediate gratification).
  
  
• Gastly family: The only Ghost-types in the game, that alone could qualify it being gimmicky but there's more. Because it's not exactly Gastly itself that's the gimmick, but rather the Pokemon Tower. First time you visit Lavender Town you can visit the Pokemon Tower with nothing stopping you... BUT you can't catch anything because every wild Pokemon is a ghost! However you can still battle the trainers, all the rather creepy Channeler who are saying weird stuff, and that's when you first see both Gastly and Haunter. When you finally get the Silph Scope, you find out that the ghosts this whole time have been Gastly (at least implied as Cubone also appeared as Ghost due to game mechanics). You can finally catch one as well, a souvenir for one of the games more unique moments.
  
  
• Onix: Onix in my opinion was made for one reason: to look impressive. Up till Brock's Gym all the Pokemon you've fought up till now were just oddly colored small animals, hardly "monsters". Then Brock throws out this gigantic rock snake. The game has suddenly changed. It's no longer a game full of cutesy monsters, Onix marked the point where it showed Pokemon came in all shapes and sizes, from cute to cool to strong to weird. Not only that, if you were unprepared, Onix was a challenge to take down with it usually being your Starter the only one able to face it with their Special attacks. From Brock after you'll start encountering the more fantastical Pokemon to catch and train yourself, but first you gotta defeat the gatekeeper.
  
  
• Voltorb Family: From pretty much the start of the game your trained to pickup Pokeballs you see on the ground cause they contain cool items or, usually prompted, a new Pokemon! So you're in the power plant, you see a Pokeball, interact with it without thinking, AND battle. Mimics are nothing new to adventure games, monsters that disguise themselves as objects such as chests to sneak attack unsuspecting players. I would argue the Voltorb family are one of the best mimics ever made. Okay, you can maybe see how a chest can be made into a monster, but a Pokeball? that handheld futuristic device used to catch Pokemon? Surely that can't ever have a Pokemon made of it... and then you realize the player character can't tell a difference from a few inches/centimeters to an entire foot/half a meter. And that's only a start of Voltorb's oddity as, unlike other Mimics or a Pokeball, it can't open up (and when it evolves it instead grows a mouth) and looks like a digital device (with mysterious lore to match) than an old object made of wood or metal. And finally, there's the odd fact that, since it is a Pokemon, you can catch it in a Pokeball, a Pokeball inside a Pokeball.
  
  
• Cubone Family: Gastly isn't the only made special from the Pokemon Tower. I think you hear about Cubone before you're able to encounter it, how its prizes for the skull on its head. Notably there's a Cubone who lost its mother in the care of Mr. Fuji. When you get the Silph Scope you can finally start encountering them and catch one for yourself, but that's not the end. The ghost that was keeping you from entering the top levels of the tower is revealed to be a Marowak, the ghost of the Cubone's mother! Defeating it puts its soul at ease, letting you pass to rescue Mr. Fuji, not only for him to give you the Poke Flute, but also so he can help take care of the Pokemon in his care including the orphaned Cubone. It's part of a small bittersweet story that's one of the standouts in Pokemon, one which has gotten some love in recent years with the Origins mini-series and Let's Go adding onto it.
  
  
• Hitmonlee & Hitmonchan: So you get through the Fighting Dojo, the old Gym of Saffron City, and for defeating the karate master you get a prize: ONE of the two Pokemon the karate master fought you with. Them, the Starters, and the Fossils are the only moments you gotta pick between one-of-a-kind Pokemon. However this is the only one you have to fight for and, unlike the Starters and Fossils, both of these Pokemon are relatively similar; you're honestly not losing much from picking one over the other. But it could be because of that which makes it a harder decision cause now you gotta make your judgement of smaller details and preference rather then a specific Type like the Starters or a Physical/Special attacker like with the fossils. And whatever you pick, if you want to complete the dex, you'll need a friend to give you the other one anyway (at least to register it in your dex before trading back).
  
  
• Magikarp family: Probably something we don't think of as a gimmick, but it is and more than just because its a weak Pokemon that evolves into a super strong Pokemon. It also has to do with the ever-memorable Magikarp salesman. Though he's probably more memorable from the anime, he originates from the game where he sells you a Magikarp promising the same grandeur as he did James... and like James you're suckered into buying a worthless fish. But unlike Farfetch'd, if you stick to training it until it grows to Level 20 you're given the ultimate surprise of a Gyarados! And this is all probably before you get the Old Rod so had you bought the Magikarp you get Gyarados earlier than you would normally and keeping up with your team's progression.
  
  
• Lapras: I can see arguments for not including it, but Lapras I feel deserves a spot as I think the purpose of just handing one to the player is so it could be their Surf Pokemon later. Yes, many Pokemon could learn Surf and you'd run in plenty of them, many Water-types, by the time you encounter Lapras. But Lapras's lore of being used as a ferrying Pokemon I think helps it stand out amongst those other Pokemon as the one who logically should get Surf.
  
  
• Ditto: It's Ditto. Need I say more? Only knows Transform, plenty of fan theory behind it being failed clones of Mew. Gen II would make it the ultimate breeding Pokemon so even if you don't use it you still have one just to help fill the dex.
  
  
• Eevee family. It's Eevee. Need I say more? Of all the gimmick Pokemon, Eevee stands as one of the most gimmicky with its various ways of evolving. And it all started here being the poster Pokemon for Evo Stone evolution. If you had an Eevee and had a gap in your team a Fire, Water, or Electric-type would fit than Eevee got you covered!
  
  
• Porygon: No, not because of the anime incident! Porygon's role in the game I would say is similar to Farfetch'd but with importance to the actual story. Porygon is a trick, its only available from spending hours on the slot machines to get enough coins (or beating the Elite Four over and over to trade money in for coins...), and in the end its kind of useless. But that's the point, Team Rocket stole it from Silph Co. to use it as a draw into their gambling ring and sucker people out of money for a Pokemon they could easily create more copies of. Its gimmick is being a non-battling tool for Team Rocket.
  
  
• Fossil Pokemon: Like with a few Pokemon the list, the gimmick isn't exactly themselves but something related to them, a trait that'll later become less interesting as more Fossil Pokemon are introduced. Yes, I'm talking about that to get them you need to revive them from their fossil item. An idea lifted straight from Jurassic Park, now players could play god by reviving their own ancient Pokemon like... a shelled squid... or a crustacean without claws... they get better when they evolve. OH, but before that you gotta pick which one you want. In a strange moment, you encounter this Super Nerd who thinks you're after the fossils and battles you for them. You win of course and get to pick one and him the other (hey, wait a moment, if he won he would have gotten both so why are we splitting them now?). Now you have a dead Pokemon! But it won't be until Cinnabar Island until you can revive it. Of course this wasn't exactly what players were expecting when they heard about reviving a prehistoric Pokemon. However, those who were savvy enough to backtrack would discover a back entrance to the Powter Museum via Cut and be given an Old Amber. That's when they get the Fossil Pokemon they REALLY want: a carnivorous dinosaur! It's just some of the more wild moments in the game where you're reviving Pokemon which have been dead for million of years.
  
  
• Snorlax: Snorlax role isn't as a Pokemon at first, but as a roadblock. With two of them in the game in very inconvenient spots, you have to find side paths to get around them. But at some point you do need to wake them and once you get the Poke Flute from Mr. Fuji that's when the roadblock suddenly turns back into a Pokemon and attacks! A sudden boss, but also these are your only chance to capture them! It's not that bad of of a Pokemon either, so all the work you did to get around them and waking them up is worth it only to get where you need to go but also a powerful Pokemon if you choose to use it.
  
  
• Dratini Family: Like the Gastly family, they're the only Pokemon of their Type: Dragon. They're also the psuedo Legendary of the game, or rather Dragonite is, so it's super rare and super strong. And it's a Safari Zone Pokemon so super annoying to get (and the highest level you need to raise to evolve). You don't get Dragonite because it'll fill a gap in your team, you get a Dragonite because you want a badass dragon to mow through your enemies. This visual of cool is further pushed by the strongest Elite Four trainer, Lance, not only using Dragonite but also Dragonairs and still giving you a hard time. Another thing possibly adding to their mysticism is that they were purposely made resistant to the Starter Types (and Electric probably because of Pikachu) to make them feel like the ultimate boss Type.

PHEW! That got a lot more busy near the end, though I think that just shows how different the "gimmick" Pokemon were in Gen I. A lot of them would later lose their gimmick status becoming normal Pokemon, only Eevee & Porygon somewhat I'd say would remain gimmicks.

Before I end this, a few Pokemon I don't see as gimmick even in Gen I:

• In-Game Trade Only Pokemon: Yes, I know there's a ton of "in-game trade only" Pokemon like Lickitung, Mr. Mime, and Jynx. But, the thing is they don't really have anything else special about them outside of that. They just are. Farfetch'd has a whole story connected to it that also defined its design which is why I find it a "gimmick", but that doesn't really go for most of the other trade onlys.
  
  
• Safari Zone Only Pokemon: Now you'd think I would have Chansey, Kangaskhan, Scyther, Pinsir, and Tauros on the list too... but just like with the in-game trade only there's really no memorable story connected to them aside they're super rare & hard to catch because you're in the Safari Zone where you have a limited amount of steps, 30 Safari Balls, can only throw a rock or bait, and they can run away. Some certainly have unique designs and traits like Chansey being the ultimate Special Wall or Kangaskhan having a child in its pouch, but I don't really find those as giimmicks, at least not how the others I listed above.
  
  
• Legendary: They're not really gimmicks, they're sort of like super bosses you then get to use.

 

[powergo1]

honestly a lot of gen 3 pokemon are horrible in design and in practice, almost as much as gen 2 is
The lunar rocks, fireflies, pikachu twins, kecleon, nosepass, castform
it feels like half the pokemon were one-off gimmicks like Ditto and Lickitung

Hey at least it's easy to get debut Hoenn Pokémon in their own region (looking at you Larvitar, Houndour, Slugma etc.)

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I'm sincerely confused at how Roselia is in any way a gimmick Pokemon. It's a fairly ordinary single-stage Grass/Poison type that's a decent but not exceptional in-game option for the game it debuts in.

It's superior statwise to base form Pokemon like Torchic and Pikachu but inferior to fully-evolved Pokemon like Swellow or Magneton; likely why it was later given both an evolution and a pre-evolution. It's positioned in the early mid-game at a point where it's just about viable, but falls off after about the 5th badge. That's... just a pretty standard Pokemon as far as I can tell. Not evolving or not having high stats doesn't automatically make one a gimmick Pokemon.

I've always held a "gimmick" Pokemon to mean... well, one with a specific gimmick. A unique ability or move that overwhelmingly defines how it plays. Pokemon like Unown, Smeargle, Wobbuffet (more so post-gen II), Minun & Plusle, Castform, and Kecleon definitely all qualify.

What it is not is "a Pokemon that can do a thing". Togekiss, for instance, is one you could argue to be a gimmick Pokemon because of the specific strategy it can abuse with Serene Grace+Air Slash. It's "the flincher Pokemon", that notorious nightmare to face that makes you unable to attack it. But that's not all it has. It can run other moves and abilities, therefore it is not a gimmick Pokemon. Wobbuffet, however, can only do that one particular thing it does (counterattacking) therefore is a gimmick mon.

Ugh, what counts as a gimmick Pokemon is going to be a huge discussion that I don't have the time for right now.

Me too, brother, but look at me getting suckered in...

 

[Pikachu315111]

Well I started so might as well keep on going.

HOLD IT!

I forgot one other gimmick Pokemon from Gen I, so let me add it here (and edit it to my above post:

Voltorb Family: From pretty much the start of the game your trained to pickup Pokeballs you see on the ground cause they contain cool items or, usually prompted, a new Pokemon! So you're in the power plant, you see a Pokeball, interact with it without thinking, AND battle. Mimics are nothing new to adventure games, monsters that disguise themselves as objects such as chests to sneak attack unsuspecting players. I would argue the Voltorb family are one of the best mimics ever made. Okay, you can maybe see how a chest can be made into a monster, but a Pokeball? that handheld futuristic device used to catch Pokemon? Surely that can't ever have a Pokemon made of it... and then you realize the player character can't tell a difference from a few inches/centimeters to an entire foot/half a meter. And that's only a start of Voltorb's oddity as, unlike other Mimics or a Pokeball, it can't open up (and when it evolves it instead grows a mouth) and looks like a digital device (with mysterious lore to match) than an old object made of wood or metal. And finally, there's the odd fact that, since it is a Pokemon, you can catch it in a Pokeball, a Pokeball inside a Pokeball.

Gen II we see a sudden change with gimmick Pokemon, while there's still plenty who exist for world building we're now getting a few who a gimmicky strictly due to their stats and/or Moves.

• Hoothoot (& Heracross): New mechanics mean new Pokemon to show them off! The most notable one being the addition of time and there being a day & night. While there was a "lighting" effect on the overworld, they also wanted it to have some gameplay significance. Thus, only certain Pokemon can be found during a time of day (or better chances). The most notable of them would be Hoothoot, particularly because its an owl which are (thought to be) nocturnal animals. Hoothoot's design was even influences by the time mechanic as its "eye mask" looks like gears & clock hands. On that same note, another introduced mechanic that gen was headbutting trees. Now it's connected with Hoothoot as, during the day, you can headbutt a tree and a sleeping Hoothoot may fall out, a pretty cool attetion to detail. However, if you're headbutting trees, you're likely looking for the Pokemon which was made exclusive to that: Heracross. Heracross are tree sap eaters so of course they would only be found up in trees. Now Aipon and Pineco too are only encounterable this method, but they're generally easier to get so they don't feel that heavily connected. Meanwhile Heracross you can spend hours headbutting trees (and may still not get one), may not be the best of reasons but, hey, it makes you use the mechanic often so in a way it accomplished what it was made to do.
  
  
• Togepi: Not going to put all the Baby Pokemon on here, but will put the most notable of them. Gen II introduced the breeding mechanic and to show it off the player was given an Egg to hatch at the start of the game. This egg is special as it's the only Togepi in the game, thus both showing a new mechanic but also still keeping some mysteries for the Pokemon world (where did Togepi and its unique egg come from if not from Johto? Hint of more regions, and there eggs being different?). And of course Togepi's inclusion in the anime before Gen II's release was what made getting one feel special as players could now see what Togepi was able to do in battle (since Misty's didn't really battle). For future reference, not gonna include other "new gen" Pokemon that were revealed early as after Gen II it felt more obvious what they were doing, while with Togepi it was a genuine mystery on the show until the Gen II games were announced (at least how I remember it as a kid).
  
  
• Sudowoodo: Our Snorlax replacement, but instead of just being another big Pokemon they mixed it up. Instead of a giant sleeping creature you find this odd moving tree in your way that you can't cut down. Okay? After defeating Whitney you talk with one of the girls in the Flower Shop and will give you a watering can and try it on the strange tree. Okay? You're thinking it's a tree, it likes water, you need a chainsaw or something. And then when you water it, it starts flailing and attacks! Sudowoodo is a very strange Pokemon you encounter in also a strange way. It hates water cause it's a Rock-type that likes to pretend to be a Grass-type, its Rock-type also likely why Cut wouldn't really hurt it much. It's a clever way of doing the roadblock Pokemon again.
  
  
• Unown: Johto was big on mythology, probably to mirror Kanto's focus on technology. Wanting to build a mythology which had a puzzle to solve, they made the Unown as a cipher, one that was both obvious if focused on but otherwise just look like a batch of strange shapes. They had their own temple, own secret radio station, and as Pokemon were strange as they only knew one move which was different Types between individual members. Honestly the Unown are less interesting as Pokemon cause they suck in battle, but that could have been a point: not all Pokemon are meant for battling. Some exist simply because they do, such as with real animals. But Unown are more than just animals, their mythology hinting at there being greater things in the Pokemon world and them possibly being one of them (something which sorta pops up occasionally).
  
  
• Wobbuffet: Our first example of a Pokemon that's a gimmick because of its battling strategy. Wobbuffet the unsuspecting punching bag punches back, I can only wonder how much testing had to be done to figure out the right amount of HP, Defense, and Special Defense to give it so it could use its Counter and Mirror Coat effectively. Wobbuffet would quickly become a legend for essentially being able to knock out legends and other Pokemon that on paper was way stronger than it, but one little carefully crafted gimmick helped it become a top tier Pokemon you need to have a strategy for unless you're ready to have a good chunk of your party wiped out.
  
  
• Dunsparce: Remember how Farfetch'd was the lesson rare doesn't mean good? Alright, that's a bit mean to say about Dunsparce, but what you need to get Dunsparce outweighs its usefulness (at least right now). Dunsparce was meant to show off the Swarm mechanic, it having a special Swarm just for it. This likely has to do with the mythical creature it was based on, the Tsuchinoko (while a mythical creature thus doesn't exist, being just a fat & small small serpent meant many snakes and caterpillars have been mistaken for one, thus they are historically "uncommon" sightings of Tsuchinoko).
  
  
• Shuckle: The extreme of extreme Pokemon. You thought Chansey having super high HP & Special and super low Attack & Defense was extreme? How about Shuckle maxing out Defense and Special Defense at the cost of all its other stats making it the most tanky Pokemon that does little else aside stall. It's an annoyance to face as you're definitely taking it down, it's just gonna be a while as it does some annoying set up along the way. Also it had an odd gimmick were giving it a Berry would turn it into Berry Juice (so it goes from healing 10 HP to... 20 HP, thrilling; not sure if the Little Cup meta was really a thing back then).
  
  
• Delibird: They turned Santa Claus into a penguin and gave it a Signature Move which has a chance on healing the target. And that's it really, but does it even need any more?
  
  
• Porygon2: If Porygon was a gimmick Pokemon than surely its evolution would be too. Porygon being essentially a prototype, the idea was that Porygon2 was what Porygon was intended to be. Also unlike Porygon, Porygon2 did have some battling capability so was indeed an upgrade. Speaking of which, Porygon2 isn't just here to represent itself but also somewhat the revelation that some Pokemon in Gen I could evolve further. But how? Well with some via Held Items, another new mechanic of Gen II (actually all cross gen evos use a new mechanic to justify their sudden existence, high friendship, Sun Stone, etc.). And because of this I feel Porygon2 is the best example of this as you literally need to get an upgrade patch from Silph Co. in order to upgrade the digital Pokemon, lol.
  
  
• Smeargle: Now we're really playing around with the fourth wall. Smeargle only learns one move, Sketch, that it uses to copy the last move the opponent used. Other games with a similar mechanic usually justifies it with magic, but Smeargle it's implied it copies a move by painting it. Yet, despite Smeargle's low stats, because it can copy almost any Move players have found plenty of ways to make Smeargle something to fear.
  
  
• Tyrogue: Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan were vaguely related in Gen I but not in any official way. Then along comes Tyrogue to reveal they're all evolution relatives and there's now also a new one: Hitmontop. Tyrogue is the only Pokemon to have done that, tied together two unrelated Pokemon together. How you also get Tyrogue stands out as you get it the same way as you got Hitmonlee or Hitmonchan in the original game: by defeating the Karate Master (who had gone to Mt. Mortar in Johto to train). It's a neat little connection all around.
  
  
• Miltank: No, not because of Whitney's. Miltank is here because it's another world builder. Pokemon =/= Animals. This is especially notable when it comes to food, especially meat. Do people eat Pokemon or products developed by Pokemon? Well Miltank answers the latter question by being the originator of the Moomoo Milk item. Yes, people consume Pokemon products, as for Pokemon themselves, well Johto also answered that via Slowpoke but it's a Gen I Pokemon so moving on. In a way Miltank was also a Chansey expy as it's Signature Move, Milk Drink, could be used outside of battle like Chansey's Softboiled. And, alright, Whitney's Miltank for many was "that one boss" and one has to wonder if that was on purpose. Whitney is presented as a bubbly girl and her first Pokemon in battle, Clefairy, spams Metronome which is just as useless as it was useful. By her second Pokemon you'd think she was meant to be a joke... than Miltank comes out. Able to heal itself, shows off the new Infatuation mechanic by making all your male Pokemon unable to attack it, STAB Stomp hits hard with a fun high chance of Paralysis, and finally the dealbreaker: Rollout. It may not be STAB, but once Rollout got going if you didn't resist Rock (aka Fighting, Ground, and Steel) your Pokemon was as good as done. You either had to grind your Starter, use hax, or get the convenient Machop in-game trade to defeat her. While not a gimmick Pokemon by conventional means, many people would remember Miltank way before they would remember actual gimmick Pokemon like Shuckle and Smeargle.

And that's pretty much it for Gen II (I think)! But before I go, some quick "honorable mentions" as in they're not gimmick Pokemon:

• Remoraid family: Just because it has an odd evolution transition doesn't make it a gimmick. Had Octillery been something like a bazooka fish instead of turret octopus it wouldn't be any different, at least in Gen II.
  
  
• Kanto exclusive: One odd thing that was done with some Gen II Pokemon was make them only available in Kanto; Houndour & Murkrow notable (Sneasel & Misdreavus arguably). Now I can sort of see why, if they're including Kanto and making new Pokemon why wouldn't it also have new Pokemon? Unfortunately the picks they did I think weren't the best as some people would probably have liked to use one or two of them (maybe they should have have an in-game trade for them in Johto and had Kanto be a way to get more later on; they sort of did that with some Gen I Pokemon by making them naturally appear in Johto like Farfetch'd, Lickitung, Lapras and Jynx). While certainly a questionable choice, it is not a gimmick. All they were doing was just trying to show more ways Kanto has changed by showing it too got some new Pokemon exlcusive to it.
  
  
• Girafarig: Just because a Pokemon is odd isn't a gimmcik all on its own. Certainly a lot of gimmick Pokemon are odd, but that's moreso because the gimmick allowed it to be than it looking odd and a gimmick followed because of it.
  
  
• Larvitar family: Dratini was the only Dragon-type in Gen I and used by Lance (who was presented as the final boss before it was revealed your rival was) which is what made it more of a gimmick. Tyranitar certainly is a memorable Dark-type, but it's not the only Dark-type, and no one uses it so it's more of a bonus to those who decided to train up a Larvitar. In addition Dratini lost its gimmick status as it's also much easier to get in Johto and we got a new Dragon-type in Kingdra (similar to how Gastly family lost its gimmick status because of Misdreavus).

Hopefully these list will start becoming much more easier as Gen III arrives with the Abilities.

 

[Codraroll]

I think your points are valid, and while I do agree that it would be nice to have the option to have harder difficulties or well, bosses that feel like they're at least trying, there's one notable thing I usually contrast to:



that is... how many of the non-veterans actually do this? We know that usually kids and even adults who don't exactly play competitive pokemon barely touch the games after finishing the story.

It became very jarring to me lately as I've been playing on Pixelmon with some friends from different parts of the world. All of them are adults, most of them are speedrunners (some are actually pretty good at the games they run, too), a couple are even programmers like me.
All of them have played most Pokemon games to date, a couple even do shiny hunting on their stream on regular basis.
Most of them have literally no clue how Pokemon works. They don't know how to EV train. They can't produce competent movesets. We've had multiple minitournaments on SwSh before this where I literally curbstomped everyone because I had a remotely competent team while they had just a bunch of pokes they "thought" would work with bad movesets and questionable itemization choice. They wouldn't notice that having 3 phisical attacks on their Nasty Plot Raichu wouldn't exactly work. They've never really done anything in the games, SwSh included, other than finishing the story, finishing the pokedex and shiny hunting, despite having hundreds of hours in multiple games.

At this point I really do wonder... are we really sure that veterans aren't such a huge minority, that at this point nuances like competent trainer movesets wouldn't even be noticed in first place by the playerbase? Are we really sure that, given the lack of time GF has, that design time isn't, actually, really better put in working on features that people use and notice, like the aforementioned Arnie?

Sounds to me like you're describing a symptom of the same problem: The games never tell you how to assemble a proper strategy, and they are so easy you never have to learn it either. Just sweep through the game with your Nasty Plot/Thunder Punch/Spark/Quick Attack Raichu, because it will win 95 % of the battles you fight in a handful of turns, and for the remaining 5 % your other 'mons can easily pick up the slack - especially once you start factoring in the various boosts and bonuses you pick up along the way.

It's borderline frustrating how Pokémon's game mechanics have so much depth to them, but barely any of it is showcased or allowed to shine in a normal playthrough. The overwhelming rarity of Double battles, even though this is the official competitive format, is probably the most egregious, but it's not the only thing. I'm also quite frustrated at how Max Raids in Gen 8 don't let you use any other strategy than "click the glowy button to become big and then go ham with the moves that say 'Super-Effective', nothing else you can do will make any difference anyway", or how most battles are so short that setting up any sort of boosts or field conditions just serve as a waste of time. Even trying to do any sort of combo makes the playthrough less efficient, since "go ham with the super-effective move" will get you through almost every battle in shorter time.

That is another problem with the games becoming too easy - you can play really, really badly and still make it through, giving you no indication that your terrible playstyle is actually terrible - why would it be, when you win the battles after all? Secondly, the lack of strategy used by opponents means that good strategies aren't shown to the player either. Only some opponents use any sort of set-up or Item synergies. The Gen VII games deserve some credit for the Totem battles that showed how two Pokémon can support each other in a double battle, but immediately loses the same amount of credit by not having any double battles where the players can try the same strategies themselves.

As you say, fixing this may not be top priority given the development time available, but it is a factor that holds the games back. I don't think it has much impact on sales, but I think it makes the step up from in-game casual play to competitive needlessly big. The in-game battle facilities have long had this problem with being so grossly more unforgiving than the rest of the game that they turn most players away, and with VGC I can't imagine it's not even worse.

 

[Worldie]

and with VGC I can't imagine it's not even worse.

I mean, going into VGC without outside research is like making a smogon account and trying to play OU with your in-game team.
Pretty much same experience minus being called a loser in chat since the games have no chat.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Pokémon doesn’t need voice acting in their games unless they go absolutely all out with it. I mean yeah it’s weird it’s not there, but people caring about Pokémon stories is the exception rather than the rule for the most part (aside from Platinum, BW1 and SM I’ve never seen anyone call the stories of the games notable and for good reason). If you’re gonna have an excuse plot why bother with voices?

So unless they consistently start putting an emphasis on story (which is divisive) it can be text boxes on a screen for me. And if they did by some chance do voice acting, I want actual voice actors with experience, Tara Strong, Rob Paulsen, Grey Deleslie, Tom Kenny, etc.…and if not the famous names in animation, then at least go for DCAU quality, or have the voice match the character.

It’s a dead horse at this point but they absolutely have the windfall to get a few professional VAs, but I don’t think it’s strictly a requirement. I mean, when playing Dragon Quest 11 I skip past voice acting sometimes, as I want to get back to the game occasionally. But I guess that’s what the skip option is for.

 

[Worldie]

Pokémon doesn’t need voice acting in their games unless they go absolutely all out with it. I mean yeah it’s weird it’s not there, but people caring about Pokémon stories is the exception rather than the rule for the most part (aside from Platinum, BW1 and SM I’ve never seen anyone call the stories of the games notable and for good reason). If you’re gonna have an excuse plot why bother with voices?

So unless they consistently start putting an emphasis on story (which is divisive) it can be text boxes on a screen for me. And if they did by some chance do voice acting, I want actual voice actors with experience, Tara Strong, Rob Paulsen, Grey Deleslie, Tom Kenny, etc.…and if not the famous names in animation, then at least go for DCAU quality, or have the voice match the character.

It’s a dead horse at this point but they absolutely have the windfall to get a few professional VAs, but I don’t think it’s strictly a requirement. I mean, when playing Dragon Quest 11 I skip past voice acting sometimes, as I want to get back to the game occasionally. But I guess that’s what the skip option is for.

I think the issue with lack of voice acting mainly arises when there's either glaring punches in the face (Pier's concert in SwSh, ouch), or big exposure moment that just feel anticlimatic while silent.

Older Pokemon games usually didn't have much "plot exposure", if you were lucky you'd get 4-5 text boxes and that was it.

However, with modern games (started with SM and it really hurts in SwSh and Arceus), they also started to have these moments of big plot exposure, where you'd have NPCs either introduce themselves in sequence or just share their plot points for a few minutes (so called cutscene hells), and all you hear is the sound of you mashing A button... It's very anticlimatic.

It really hurts your enjoyment/immersion when you have to just straight sit reading textboxes and mashing through text, knowing that you may be missing something important so you can't just skip them. That's where the voice acting comes up and makes it more enjoyable.
It also came up a lot with Legend Arceus due to the fact the tutorial section is really a slog of textboxes that hurts to get through, much more than other entries, due to it being more lenghty in order to introduce the player to this atypical experience.

I distincly remind something similar of a issue back when I first started playing FF14: the base game is notoriously considered pretty bad and slow, and not in small part due to the fact most of ARR is made of unvoiced cutscenes, often of 20-30 textboxes. These cutscenes don't exactly disappear in the following expansion, but they're always voiced, and sitting with autoplay watching NPCs talk their stuff out is MUCH more enjoyable and less painful than having to just read what's going on.


While I agree that a game doesnt *need* voice acting to be fine, a game that involves big exposure moments benefits heavily from actually having voice acting in these moments because it makes them much more interesting/enjoyable.
If Pokemon games are to continue getting more involved plotlines and big plot dump moments, the lack of voice acting will be more and more evident and will hurt the experience more and more over time.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I think the issue with lack of voice acting mainly arises when there's either glaring punches in the face (Pier's concert in SwSh, ouch), or big exposure moment that just feel anticlimatic while silent.

Older Pokemon games usually didn't have much "plot exposure", if you were lucky you'd get 4-5 text boxes and that was it.

However, with modern games (started with SM and it really hurts in SwSh and Arceus), they also started to have these moments of big plot exposure, where you'd have NPCs either introduce themselves in sequence or just share their plot points for a few minutes (so called cutscene hells), and all you hear is the sound of you mashing A button... It's very anticlimatic.

It really hurts your enjoyment/immersion when you have to just straight sit reading textboxes and mashing through text, knowing that you may be missing something important so you can't just skip them. That's where the voice acting comes up and makes it more enjoyable.
It also came up a lot with Legend Arceus due to the fact the tutorial section is really a slog of textboxes that hurts to get through, much more than other entries, due to it being more lenghty in order to introduce the player to this atypical experience.

I distincly remind something similar of a issue back when I first started playing FF14: the base game is notoriously considered pretty bad and slow, and not in small part due to the fact most of ARR is made of unvoiced cutscenes, often of 20-30 textboxes. These cutscenes don't exactly disappear in the following expansion, but they're always voiced, and sitting with autoplay watching NPCs talk their stuff out is MUCH more enjoyable and less painful than having to just read what's going on.


While I agree that a game doesnt *need* voice acting to be fine, a game that involves big exposure moments benefits heavily from actually having voice acting in these moments because it makes them much more interesting/enjoyable.
If Pokemon games are to continue getting more involved plotlines and big plot dump moments, the lack of voice acting will be more and more evident and will hurt the experience more and more over time.

Yeah Piers is really hilarious when you consider Roxie did what he did better in BW2…on the friggin DS. I mean sure it’s a short song but it was something.

 

[trxgic!!!]

gonna get hate from showdown players for this, i almost guarantee it, but stall oriented teams are more fun to play then teams that setup for two turns then sweep with one or two attacks. i see a lot of hate coming from players that solely play showdown towards stall teams or defensive mons in general despite using zacian and setting up for one turn and then clicking play rough/behemoth blade the rest of the match. stall deserves more appreciation then it gets. it might be annoying to face one if you're trying to sweep but think of how hard it is to actually play one effectively compared to hyper offense.

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

Pokemon RBY hacks shouldn't try too hard to fix its mechanics. I mean, do you even want to play gen 1 if you're picking out everything you don't like? Go play firered you california roll in the sushi place ass baby

EDIT: I should mention that this also applies to people who want 1/256 and chansey softboil fail patched out

 

[Siggu]

Pokemon RBY hacks shouldn't try too hard to fix its mechanics. I mean, do you even want to play gen 1 if you're picking out everything you don't like? Go play firered you california roll in the sushi place ass baby

EDIT: I should mention that this also applies to people who want 1/256 and chansey softboil fail patched out

Or when I see mechanics or Pokémon from generations after the game they are hacking.

Look, if I want to play Kanto, Johto, Hoenn or Sinnoh with modern mechanics, the remakes are already there...

 

[Sonikku A]

Me: Adds stealth rock to Emerald, but nerfs it

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Me: Adds stealth rock to Emerald, but nerfs it

Ain't nobody's playing anyone's ROM hack competitively, if they even play it multiplayer at all.

I find it very silly when ROM hack creators take their opinions about how competitive multiplayer should be balanced and inject those balance changes into their single player experience. Nobody is setting up Stealth Rock against Ace Trainer Veronica.

 

[CPU]

Ain't nobody's playing anyone's ROM hack competitively, if they even play it multiplayer at all.

I find it very silly when ROM hack creators take their opinions about how competitive multiplayer should be balanced and inject those balance changes into their single player experience. Nobody is setting up Stealth Rock against Ace Trainer Veronica.

What if Ace Trainer Veronica has 6 overleveled Yanmega and setting up Stealth Rock is your only way to do enough damage to them?

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

Ain't nobody's playing anyone's ROM hack competitively, if they even play it multiplayer at all.

I find it very silly when ROM hack creators take their opinions about how competitive multiplayer should be balanced and inject those balance changes into their single player experience. Nobody is setting up Stealth Rock against Ace Trainer Veronica.

god I hated radical red

At least it wasn't the team rocket hack of red. God that was a mess. No place to grind, the first gym leader's ace is level 36 while you're barely 11 or so, god why did people actually play this this is literal horse shit

 

[Gravity Monkey]

gonna get hate from showdown players for this, i almost guarantee it, but stall oriented teams are more fun to play then teams that setup for two turns then sweep with one or two attacks. i see a lot of hate coming from players that solely play showdown towards stall teams or defensive mons in general despite using zacian and setting up for one turn and then clicking play rough/behemoth blade the rest of the match. stall deserves more appreciation then it gets. it might be annoying to face one if you're trying to sweep but think of how hard it is to actually play one effectively compared to hyper offense.

Stall is one of the biggest reasons why 6v6 singles will never be an actual competitive game / esport. There's no way you can keep viewers engaged for more than like 200 turns max. It might be more skillful but its existence 100% drags the game down.

 

[Ironmage]

Honestly, competitive pokemon on cartridge feels really restrained by the animations being long and unskippable. Sure, they might look pretty, but if you've come to watch strategy they make up a good deal of time in which strategy isn't happening. Continually pushing for fewer turns in a match doesn't seem like the right way to approach that issue.

 

[trxgic!!!]

Stall is one of the biggest reasons why 6v6 singles will never be an actual competitive game / esport. There's no way you can keep viewers engaged for more than like 200 turns max. It might be more skillful but it's existence 100% drags the game down.

but doubles is the actual comp format so why should it matter if it makes singles boring? sweeping after a 2-turn setup is just as boring, if not more so, since that's all that ag singles tends to be

 

[Gravity Monkey]

but doubles is the actual comp format so why should it matter if it makes singles boring? sweeping after a 2-turn setup is just as boring, if not more so, since that's all that ag singles tends to be

yeah its boring but its not as excruciating as a 2 hours match where the only thing keeping track of progress are pps getting smaller. i think your points are valid! im personally from the school of thought that 6v6 is kinda boring as a whole. my point is just that stall is a big part of why 6v6 cannot be a serious competitive game (aka something where ppl can live playing) because it basically makes live broadcasting of tournament games impossible, meaning there's never gonna be any sponsor interested in funding big tournaments/player teams/etc. You can still enjoy the game without that obviously, but it means that the game is fundamentally limited to being a hobby, unlike most big-licence games (league, smash, even 2v2 in some capacity) (and unless you're a content creator ig).

 

[trxgic!!!]

yeah its boring but its not as excruciating as a 2 hours match where the only thing keeping track of progress are pps getting smaller. i think your points are valid! im personally from the school of thought that 6v6 is kinda boring as a whole. my point is just that stall is a big part of why 6v6 cannot be a serious competitive game (aka something where ppl can live playing) because it basically makes live broadcasting of tournament games impossible, meaning there's never gonna be any sponsor interested in funding big tournaments/player teams/etc. You can still enjoy the game without that obviously, but it means that the game is fundamentally limited to being a hobby, unlike most big-licence games (league, smash, even 2v2 in some capacity) (and unless you're a content creator ig).

i understand where you're coming from, stall matches are very boring to watch (got a toxistall ditto once, both of us agreed to just close the tab lol). singles is also a boring game mode as well though, since it seriously limits synergies between the pokemon on the field. but outside of doubles tourneys off of showdown where stall is less common (at least from what off i've seen), competitive pokemon is already restrained to just being a hobby, while other aspects of the game like shiny hunting and nuzlocking take the spotlight. i wish that were different, as the competitive aspect of pokemon is entertaining when it's a match of two player's skill and knowledge of synergy, and not just clicking protect/recover or sword dance+play rough the entire time.

 

[Sonikku A]

Ain't nobody's playing anyone's ROM hack competitively, if they even play it multiplayer at all.

I find it very silly when ROM hack creators take their opinions about how competitive multiplayer should be balanced and inject those balance changes into their single player experience. Nobody is setting up Stealth Rock against Ace Trainer Veronica.

Normally yes, but my Hack's just a joke hoke. The maingame campaign is mostly the same events wise outside quirky dialogue

So I was like "well, it can't be just this", so i added other mechanics from later gens to buff certain mons cuz let's face it. No one would've used Mightyena. Even gave Castform and Arbok more formes cuz it's still garbage they refer to Arbok's patterns and don't show it

But it does go with what people said. Make sure your main game campaign isn't horribly balanced. A lot of changes and later Gen mechanics are post game for mine. And surprisingly people don't really populate areas for wild encounters.


Also I changed type matchups partially just to screw Skarm

I'm not opposed to the concept of competitive for hacks. But maingames first

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

Normally yes, but my Hack's just a joke hoke. The maingame campaign is mostly the same events wise outside quirky dialogue

So I was like "well, it can't be just this", so i added other mechanics from later gens to buff certain mons cuz let's face it. No one would've used Mightyena. Even gave Castform and Arbok more formes cuz it's still garbage they refer to Arbok's patterns and don't show it

But it does go with what people said. Make sure your main game campaign isn't horribly balanced. A lot of changes and later Gen mechanics are post game for mine. And surprisingly people don't really populate areas for wild encounters.


Also I changed type matchups partially just to screw Skarm

I'm not opposed to the concept of competitive for hacks. But maingames first

How hard even is it to make a rom hack?

 

[Sonikku A]

How hard even is it to make a rom hack?

Well with Decomp it's a lot easier. Only reason my hack took so long was cuz rewriting 300+ pokedex entries took forever, and some jokes were obnoxious in execution like this

Still wish adding a mon doesn't take editing 30 files manually. That's just tedious

But if you want to start... https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=425246