Unpopular opinions

Does anyone else not like romhacks that much? They're either "kitchen sink" games with everything from older games or "challenge games" where rocket tag syndrome is at its worst.
The ROM hacks I've played have come in three varieties; comically edgy story hacks that seem to have been written by 14 year olds, "difficulty" hacks that aren't actually difficult if you have a basic understanding of the game (Drayano hacks fall into this category), and "difficulty" hacks that create the facade of difficulty by rigging the game against the player and turning it into even more of a gambling simulator than it already is (Kaizo hacks fall into this category). None of these difficulty hacks actually introduce any genuine difficulty; as someone said on one of these threads this is kind of an unavoidable flaw of turn-based RPGs; they will essentially only ever boil down to game knowledge and RNG.

I have yet to play a main series hack I genuinely consider good. I'll give a concession to Insurgence; I think it definitely has elements of all three of these categories, with an edgy plot and a janky idea of difficulty, but at least it's original compared to the others.
 

Winry

Super Graduate-Level Napper
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I've been advocating for this for a while now.

The problem with most major battles in Pokémon is that they're quite frankly bland and not that different from what you do the entire game. At no point in a regular run you're encouraged to try and strategize even a little.

This is why Emerald Tate and Liza is one of the best battles in the franchise despite their roster being thoroughly trash. Sure, I'd appreciate a less convoluted difficulty setting than what BW2 had to offer, even though that was mostly a grindfest, but latest games just don't have enough memorable battles.

Want an example? Let's do a show of hands here, who remembers Melony's team without checking it? The steel guy in Alola's E4? (Man, I don't even remember his name :row:), Diantha's? Come on, she was the Kalos Champion, someone here gotta know, right?

Probably not.

Does anyone remember Raihan's gym battle though? Was that an unsurmountable challenge? Maybe mildly difficult? Nah, let's be honest, it was piss easy like the rest of SwSh.

I rest my case.
I feel like the gym leaders/elite four members of newer generations have just been weird. Their teams have either been
1) repetitive with popular mons over and over again (there are several trainers associated with Lucario: Maylene, Korrina, Cynthia, not counting random trainers that have it for rematches). This also is hurt by their focus on giving gimmicks to old Pokemon... like even though Galar had a few interesting Ghost-types, Allister's ace became Gengar (yet again)(same for Melony too). I think they would have been a lot more memorable if Melony's ace had been like, Frosmoth or Eiscue instead of Lapras for like the 5th time. We have seen these Pokemon so many times that it just makes the rest of their teams forgettable too.

or 2) just focusing on 1-2 mons as their signature aces with the rest of their teams being forgettable fillers that aren't totally trash. Does Nessa *really* have any Pokemon other than Drednaw? Why were there two Dark-type trainers in Galar yet none of them used Thievul? (because it's not very good probably). When I say mons that aren't trash idk if I'm just misremembering but I feel like in the past Gym Leaders had a lot more sucky Pokemon simply because they matched their type, meanwhile Kabu of course had Arcanine again instead of any Fire-type Pokemon that hasn't been featured a few times already or at all (Heatmor, Talonflame, Oricorio, toaster Rotom, etc). Like he's from Hoenn, isn't he? He should have had a Blaziken! Gordie's team I think is a good job because even though it's forgettable, at least Shuckle and Barbaracle got some spotlight. Just to put this out there, but I feel like I would be really surprised if Grusha (the new Ice-type gym leader) had mons like Delibird, Glaceon, etc... if he has any old Pokemon he's probably going to have stuff like Swinub, Snover, and/or Cryogonal (or god forbid another Lapras lol). Same for the Grass-type dude, probably no Sunflora, Carnivine, or Tropius but this dude is definitely gonna have a Roselia. If we have an Electric-type gym leader they are definitely going to have a Magnemite and/or Voltorb instead of any of the 5 Electric-types that were introduced in Galar alone but were not used by a gym leader yet obviously.

I feel like it might have something to do with the shift recently of portraying game characters as more like actual "characters" (idk how else to call this) that they can market and reuse multiple times. Do you guys remember the episodes in the anime with any of the Hoenn elite four? I sure don't. Characters would maybe show up for an episode or two then never be spoke of again (except for Ash's traveling companions). There were no merch related to them at all. Nowadays characters show up multiple times in the anime and have a lot more marketing... before Alola, only a few gym leaders would be regulars, but then all of a sudden Pokemon became more of an ensemble cast and there was constant merch for all of them. So if they have popular Pokemon or only 1-2 that they have to focus on, it's easier to bring them up repeatedly. Idk.

There are a few exceptions like Raihan having a weather gimmick that I appreciated as well... it's surprising that he is still called a Dragon-type trainer but only had 1 new Dragon-type Pokemon (and none of the fossils! and there were 6 new Dragon-types introduced this gen!) but he was still memorable.
 
Last edited:
The ROM hacks I've played have come in three varieties; comically edgy story hacks that seem to have been written by 14 year olds, "difficulty" hacks that aren't actually difficult if you have a basic understanding of the game (Drayano hacks fall into this category), and "difficulty" hacks that create the facade of difficulty by rigging the game against the player and turning it into even more of a gambling simulator than it already is (Kaizo hacks fall into this category). None of these difficulty hacks actually introduce any genuine difficulty; as someone said on one of these threads this is kind of an unavoidable flaw of turn-based RPGs; they will essentially only ever boil down to game knowledge and RNG.

I have yet to play a main series hack I genuinely consider good. I'll give a concession to Insurgence; I think it definitely has elements of all three of these categories, with an edgy plot and a janky idea of difficulty, but at least it's original compared to the others.
I played some good 386 hacks back in the day. When the only change is "We make everything available early and up most of the main opponents to a team of 6" the default result is just "standard pokemon game+", which is enough to keep things fresh.

Anything more than that, you're counting on one amateur writer/coder/game designer to make something better than what an entire team of people could do. Not saying it's impossible, but it's a tall ask. There's a reason that most mods of popular games are "I fixed this one element". Sometimes it's a big element like redesigning all castles, sometimes it's a single clipping animation, but it's a very clear focus. "I rewrote the entire main story, all dialogue, and rebalanced every fight" is not a reasonable goal for one person, and the fact that the project gets completed is honestly impressive, but the result is the usual quality level of those attempts is low.
I feel like the gym leaders/elite four members of newer generations have just been weird. Their teams have either been
1) repetitive with popular mons over and over again (there are several trainers associated with Lucario: Maylene, Korrina, Cynthia, not counting random trainers that have it for rematches). This also is hurt by their focus on giving gimmicks to old Pokemon... like even though Galar had a few interesting Ghost-types, Allister's ace became Gengar (yet again)(same for Melony too). I think they would have been a lot more memorable if Melony's ace had been like, Frosmoth or Eiscue instead of Lapras for like the 5th time. We have seen these Pokemon so many times that it just makes the rest of their teams forgettable too.

or 2) just focusing on 1-2 mons as their signature aces with the rest of their teams being forgettable fillers that aren't totally trash. Does Nessa *really* have any Pokemon other than Drednaw? Why were there two Dark-type trainers in Galar yet none of them used Thievul? (because it's not very good probably). When I say mons that aren't trash idk if I'm just misremembering but I feel like in the past Gym Leaders had a lot more sucky Pokemon simply because they matched their type, meanwhile Kabu of course had Arcanine again instead of any Fire-type Pokemon that hasn't been featured a few times already or at all (Heatmor, Talonflame, Oricorio, toaster Rotom, etc). Like he's from Hoenn, isn't he? He should have had a Blaziken! Gordie's team I think is a good job because even though it's forgettable, at least Shuckle and Barbaracle got some spotlight. Just to put this out there, but I feel like I would be really surprised if Grusha (the new Ice-type gym leader) had mons like Delibird, Glaceon, etc... if he has any old Pokemon he's probably going to have stuff like Swinub, Snover, and/or Cryogonal (or god forbid another Lapras lol). Same for the Grass-type dude, probably no Sunflora, Carnivine, or Tropius but this dude is definitely gonna have a Roselia. If we have an Electric-type gym leader they are definitely going to have a Magnemite and/or Voltorb instead of any of the 5 Electric-types that were introduced in Galar alone but were not used by a gym leader yet obviously.

I feel like it might have something to do with the shift recently of portraying game characters as more like actual "characters" (idk how else to call this) that they can market and reuse multiple times. Do you guys remember the episodes in the anime with any of the Hoenn elite four? I sure don't. Characters would maybe show up for an episode or two then never be spoke of again (except for Ash's traveling companions). There were no merch related to them at all. Nowadays characters show up multiple times in the anime and have a lot more marketing... before Alola, only a few gym leaders would be regulars, but then all of a sudden Pokemon became more of an ensemble cast and there was constant merch for all of them. So if they have popular Pokemon or only 1-2 that they have to focus on, it's easier to bring them up repeatedly. Idk.

There are a few exceptions like Raihan having a weather gimmick that I appreciated as well... it's surprising that he is still called a Dragon-type trainer but only had 1 new Dragon-type Pokemon (and none of the fossils! and there were 6 new Dragon-types introduced this gen!) but he was still memorable.
Yeah. Again, I don't get why they don't do more gimmick gym battles. People remember Stadium Koga. Not fondly, but he's memorable. Give us weather spam, actual VoltTurn, competent Doubles, something. And if you make their ace a new mon, you cement that association in people's minds, as well as demonstrating the mon's strengths for players to see and learn from.
 
Last edited:
I've been advocating for this for a while now.

The problem with most major battles in Pokémon is that they're quite frankly bland and not that different from what you do the entire game. At no point in a regular run you're encouraged to try and strategize even a little.

This is why Emerald Tate and Liza is one of the best battles in the franchise despite their roster being thoroughly trash. Sure, I'd appreciate a less convoluted difficulty setting than what BW2 had to offer, even though that was mostly a grindfest, but latest games just don't have enough memorable battles.

Want an example? Let's do a show of hands here, who remembers Melony's team without checking it? The steel guy in Alola's E4? (Man, I don't even remember his name :row:), Diantha's? Come on, she was the Kalos Champion, someone here gotta know, right?

Probably not.

Does anyone remember Raihan's gym battle though? Was that an unsurmountable challenge? Maybe mildly difficult? Nah, let's be honest, it was piss easy like the rest of SwSh.

I rest my case.
Yes! Emerald Tate and Liza is the perfect example! Unfortunately my brain is filled with useless knowledge so I actually did remember all those other trainer rosters (yes, even Molayne's), but just because I remembered them doesn't make them memorable haha.

I don't even mind when the strategy of a team is so convoluted, low-impact, or barely-there that it's practically pointless. Gardenia's Turtwig knows Reflect and Sunny Day in Platinum, which together can make Roserade and especially Cherrim pretty tough to take down... but only for a couple of turns at most. I still think it's neat that there was an attempt at synergy there, even if so many of the other design choices for that battle are highly questionable.

(personal wishlist-y sidenote: they should've given Roserade Weather Ball over Poison Sting. It'd be a potential nasty surprise for players who sweep through her team while Sunny Day is still active, while also doubling as the neutral coverage her team so desperately needs outside of Sun)

FRLG Lorelei's another example where I like what they were doing but they could've pushed it further. In her first battle Dewgong and Cloyster know Hail, which does very little for her team besides allowing her Cloyster to stall for chip damage with Dive and Protect (none of her mons even know Blizzard). In the rematch Hail is gone and now Cloyster knows Rain Dance, which helps her Ice mons defensively, buffs her Surfs and gives Lapras a perfectly accurate Thunder (provided it comes out while it's still raining). It definitely doesn't make the battle crazy-difficult or anything, but it really provides a sense of progression between the two rosters.

EDIT:
The ROM hacks I've played have come in three varieties; comically edgy story hacks that seem to have been written by 14 year olds, "difficulty" hacks that aren't actually difficult if you have a basic understanding of the game (Drayano hacks fall into this category), and "difficulty" hacks that create the facade of difficulty by rigging the game against the player and turning it into even more of a gambling simulator than it already is (Kaizo hacks fall into this category). None of these difficulty hacks actually introduce any genuine difficulty; as someone said on one of these threads this is kind of an unavoidable flaw of turn-based RPGs; they will essentially only ever boil down to game knowledge and RNG.

I have yet to play a main series hack I genuinely consider good. I'll give a concession to Insurgence; I think it definitely has elements of all three of these categories, with an edgy plot and a janky idea of difficulty, but at least it's original compared to the others.
And the ways a lot of ROMhacks try to buff mons are so uncreative and boring. Everything vaguely reptilian is now a Dragon-type! Everything with a connection to magic or healing or beauty is now a Fairy-type! Every final evolution is boosted to minimum 500 BST! Everything gets a busted ability!

The devs of these games also seem deathly afraid of having the tension of their big bad boss battles undermined by cheese strats, so they end up either making up absurd additional mechanics to protect their precious creation or they funnel the player down a narrow corridor so they don't have enough options to creatively break the boss fight.

There are basically only two fangames (one ROMhack and one RPGmaker game) that I've properly enjoyed, and even then the ROMhack had some very obvious AI issues that made the game way easier than I think was intended.
 
Last edited:
Huh, I'm seemingly of the opposite opinion of most people in this thread when it comes to romhacks (though I guess this is the unpopular opinions thread...) I much prefer romhacks of the original games, to the point where I genuinely can't go back to the original versions of the game for some of them. The problem is that, like with many things, the vast majority of romhacks are pretty poor. I don't fault the creators of these romhacks for this - many are just people, usually high school or college kids, trying out romhacking with some of their favorite childhood games. Also, as has already been pointed out, something made by one person as a hobby usually is going to pale in comparison (or at least, production value) compared to a professional game studio.

Instead of continuing to vomit words about romhacking as a whole, I'll just talk about some of my favorite romhacks in particular and why I enjoy them so much.

  • Crystal Clear: I think this is one of the most popular romhacks, and deservedly so - experimenting with a fully open-world Kanto-Johto, while still maintaining compatibility with Stadium 2 and Bank, is a pretty remarkable feat. It's far from a perfect game - in particular, the level curve is a bit awkward, which is further exacerbated by how easy it is to travel from gym to gym - but given the hardware and goal of the game, I'd say it's one of the most ambitious romhacks and is definitely worth experiencing, even if you're skeptical about the concept.
  • FireRed Throwback: The intention with this romhack is very simple, but very effective: Catch 'em all. All of the first 250 Pokemon are available in the wild for you to capture, and that's it. This is a nice and simple hack that lets you undertake the original adventure of FRLG with a fresh, yet familiar coat of paint. It also features some neat QoL additions, but overall it's a pretty vanilla hack- and sometimes, good old vanilla is the flavor you're gonna want!
  • Drayano's hacks: I bundle Drayano's hacks all in one because his design philosophy is pretty consistent across all of them, just improved over time. His romhacks are often described as challenge hacks, but I thin that's a pretty poor descriptor. It is true that the game is made more difficult via improved teams, but the AI itself is untouched and it's still pretty simple if you know what you're doing. The intention is more to revitalize the experience of the vanilla games by adding in QoL features, implementing the Fairy type where applicable, and not only making every 'mon in that generation available, but making adjustments where necessary to make them more fun to use. (There's also a patch that turns off any changes to the 'mons themselves, if you don't like that!) Personally, if a Drayano hack (or a hack by Buffel Saft, a similar creator) exists for a game, I'll pretty much always stick to it over the vanilla game just because it's a more polished and well-tuned experience overall.
  • Radical Red: This is one of two highly notable romhacks at the moment, and has earned a reputation for being extremely challenging. This is definitely true on Hardcore mode, but it's also gained a bit of an intimidating reputation when it's not really warranted - there is an easy mode and normal mode offered for more casual players, after all. I think the best way to describe this hack is like a boss rush - training Pokemon is extremely easy thanks to the DexNav and various QoL features, but the only hurdle is building a team to handle the next gym. It's certainly not for everyone, but if you're in the mood for a challenge with 8 generations' worth of Pokemon to work with (and around), this might be up your alley.
  • Unbound: Along with the aforementioned Radical Red, this is developed via the very powerful CFRU engine, which has allowed romhackers to absolutely revolutionize GBA romhacking - yet, unlike Radical Red, this game takes place in an entirely new region called Borrius. There are no fakemon, but there's a vast Pokedex and a brand new region out there that provides a fresh experience. To get this out of the way: yes, the story is hilariously edgy, and I advise either skipping it or reading it for laughs, but outside of that, it's an amazing experience. The Mission system in particular adds a lot to the game, with many more hours of sidequests and content to complete. It's an extremely well-made game, and I'd say it's the most unique romhack out there right now.

    I'd also like to point out that my main interest is Fire Emblem, which has one of the most robust and vibrant romhacking communities I've ever seen for video games, so my perspective on romhacks might be a bit different from the 'average' Pokemon fan. But I do think that romhacks in the Pokemon community get a pretty bad rep, largely as a result of stinkers like Snakewood, Clover, and the Kaizo hacks giving them a reputation for edginess and BS difficulty. I'm not saying this thread falls into those assumptions, but if anyone reading this hasn't checked out romhacks before, maybe try one from the list and see what you think!
 

Adeleine

formerly Finland
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
even among ppl who agree with me that gen5 newmons set is worst or second worst, gen5 newmons set is overrated
Screen Shot 2022-09-20 at 9.11.11 PM.png

even among ppl who agree with me that gen7 newmons set is pretty good, gen7 newmons set is underrated
Screen Shot 2022-09-20 at 9.21.47 PM.png


i'll add some more elucidated thoughts so i'm not just listposting, but for the lists 1) i spent like 5 mins on them but 2) i tried to be objective-ish for vague "best for the franchise" type energy, eg i dislike lurantis and like heatmor but chose keep lurantis and remove heatmor. 3) im not really focusing on competitive scene implications here

explaining every single pick would take 10 hours to satisfy nobody, but more generally in this exercise, i found the gen5 mons to be even more derivative-ish than i thought. everyone knows about gigalith golem, swoobat crobat, etc, but what caught my eye is how replacable mons like jellicent and seismitoad felt. (side note: im not tryin to say "remove" mons are Unworthy of existing or saying you're Bad Taste if you dislike a "remove" mon. they have their advantages. i'm just looking at character bloat and trying to call it as i see it re: weight franchise advantage to keeping it vs franchise advantage to leaving more room for more mons.)

i hesitate to directly call mons like jellicent and seismitoad "derivative" because, even tho jellyfish and toad pokemon exist, they have clearly different vibes, typings, aims, etc. yet, mons like the above just didn't feel like they contribute that much. is pokemon that much worse if jellicent doesn't exist? i'd be hard pressed to say so. but for tentacruel, i'd be more inclined to. why? besides being a gen1 mon and having legacy factor, tent has this subtle energy to it. jellicent has cool edgy dex entries, sure, but plenty of mons do and can. maybe im missing something, but tentacruel feels more intricately put together in a way that lets it shine. this might help explain: tentacruel, in a literal sense, suffers from "this is a real-world animal" syndrome, it is a jellyfish, but i actually think jellicent is more afflicted by the syndrome.
:ss/tentacruel: :ss/jellicent:
tentacruel depends on its jellyfish anatomy features to create its menacing energy. its cap hiding those lurking eyes, its poised tentacles–these are integral. the design utility provided by these jellyfish body parts masks the fact that, you know, it's a real animal in pokemon. however, jellicent feels like... a ghost spirit taking the form of a jellyfish for the sake of taking the form of a jellyfish. how do jellicent's tentacles help its design? i dont know! i forget they exist! they prevent it from being SO top-heavy, i guess, but that top doesn't feel super effective either. any menacing energy from "its just this gaping blob of liquid... staring at me inhumanly" feels blunty by the goofy eyes and (especially) by the goofy mustache. the mustache also robs surface area that could contribute towards creepy empty water / empty space visualization.

talking about jellicent (i actually typed "jellyfish" by accident the first time... lol) also bleeds into my next less-immediately-obvious critique of gen5 dex: concept shallowness.

:ss/galvantula: :ss/mimikyu:
galvantula's species name is the elespider and thats what it is. its an electric spider. neat. is this concept shallowness unique to gen5? fuck no. but it feels more pervasive there. why am i picking on one individual pokemon to talk about a systemic problem? to explain more what i mean by "conceptual shallowness" by contrasting it with mimikyu, which i consider conceptually richer for reasons that may not be obvious. mimikyu basic concept is "ghost disguising as pikachu." maybe you look at that and think "that's barely more complex than galv!"

mimikyu has another concept dimension though: being a lovable loser! this concept dimension is continually strengthened throughout its design and beyond. let us count the ways:

1) its disguise is of flimsy, familiar, everyday cloth, and not some spooky ghost magic or ectoplasm or something
2) the disguise is of endearingly low physical quality, with different coloring from pikachu / crayon-like marks / busted mode
3) the disguise has endearingly low "spatial quality"; it erratically shifts and sways in-model, it doesnt move around like pikachu, and it has "busted" mode. it doesn't "idle behave" much like pikachu, in addition to not looking much like it
4) it tries to imitate pikachu, an immensely popular pokemon, a childlike yet relatable sentiment that inspires a caring instinct in players
5) it has a large head, short height, and large forward facing eyes, echoing a child

do you see all these varyingly subtle touches!? do you get how, for example, mimikyu's design would actually be worse and less effective if it was more pikachu-yellow colored?

what else does galvantula's concept and execution have going for it? ive heard some things, but nothing that's really struck me as compelling or greatly executed. i remember hearing something about its fur, static charge, and electricity generation? that's a neat starting point for further development, but i don't think it's executed super well. it's fairly shallow in galv (why should i care that it generates electricity one way vs another?), and the fur is unintuitively/artificially placed and ugly.

another one i remember is something about joltik needing to feed on electricity, but galvantula being the stronger and doing the opposite, outputting electricity to use in attacks. if i remember right, a neat detail, but nothing as strengthened and compelling as mimikyu's example. nothing i can tell about galvantula's design, or even its abilities and moves, paint it as eg protective towards joltiks or willing to share electricity with them. nothing about joltik's morphology seems to suggest a more thoughtful and rich change in electricity manipulation and feeding than "the electricity absorbing tick magically became the electricity outputting spider." maybe galvantula IS protective, and maybe it DOES have some rich morphological connection with joltik that i missed. but i would not have been able to notice without you telling me, which kind of indicates the problem. a trait to me is so much stronger, more interesting, and more impactful when it bleeds through the pokemon and is something you expect to naturally and organically discover by accident, not "oh someone on the internet told me an easter egg" or "i went hunting for nuggets," even if your easter egg is very cool.

happy to take questions on any of this / on placements / whatever. sorry for rantyness/confusingness
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
You listed 3 Megas who I'm pretty sure all had very different reception. The Zards were considered shilling Charizard Marketing but also necessary/welcome for it from a gameplay standpoint, Lucario mostly has to do with being Korrina's Ace (which probably could have been any Fighting Mega), and I don't know anyone laying much praise on Mega Salamence from either direction.
From what I remember, when the Mega Kanto Starters were revealed, while some people felt it was odd they were pushing the Kanto Starters and not the Kalos Starters (this was the beginning of GF pushing of Gen I nostalgia so didn't has that much of a heavy backlash), all of them were generally liked. This includes MCY, since it looked like what an evolution of a Charizard would look like. But then when they revealed MCX via the Origins special, it received some backlash not only cause Charizard was being treated special (which was sort of a thing before then) but also because it didn't look that much different from a normal Charizard. Of course, when the games were released, MCX became the popular Charizard as it just generally played better while MCY was more a niche (sad for me as I like MCY more than MCX).

M-Lucario's got some criticism as it looked like a Lucario going through an "edgy" phase, but it was one of the early Mega shown so got a pass. Salamence was the 2nd wave of Mega and it didn't really receive much buzz I think because it was "sorta" expected (then again we also expected a Mega Milotic but that never came to fruition).

Let's be honest, a lot of Mega Pokemon was mainly a popularity contest or they had a "good idea/cool design" for a Mega Pokemon (which is probably where the few odder choices came from). Absol, Charizard, Lucario, and Salamence were all popular with Absol and Charizard needing it to become competitive; and Absol alone to be relative.

In terms of buffing Regigigas, I keep imagining merged formes with the three original regis. Since Gigas had its power sealed, it makes sense to me to have the other regis contain compatible power that can be swapped in. The merged formes can then either have Clear Body or an ability that reflects the type of the merged regi (e.g. Regigigas-Rock gets Solid Rock) along with some stat adjustments.
Hm, that could be an interesting idea. And depending on what Regi is fuses with it can alter its stats too:

Regigigas: 110/160/110/80/110/100//670
w/ Rock: 80/160/200/50/110/50//650
w/ Ice: 80/50/110/160/200/50//650
w/ Steel: 80/120/140/120/140/50//650
w/ Eleki: 80/135/50/135/50/200//650
w/ Draco: 200/135/50/135/50/80//650

Not sure what Ability it would have, I would agree the Hidden Abilities of the other titans but Steel would be getting the short end of the stick as they gave it Light Metal (yeah, because I'm sure Registeel was really worried about getting Low Kicked; which, BTW, would only decrease Low Kick from doing 120 Power to 100 Power, SO worth not having something like Filter or Bulletproof). Then again I guess it isn't any worse off than Regidraco who they gave 200 HP to but kept its defenses at 50 each; why?

Another idea with Slow Start. Honestly, 670 is just 10 one under the other uber Legendaries (and the same BST as Kyogre and Groudon). Yet they don't get a debilitating Ability, so if they're going to keep Slow Start on Regigigas I say buff it. Okay, so it starts with half Speed, Attack, and Special Attack. BUT, instead of it wearing off depending on the number of turns, it wears off if Regigigas is attacked. And that's where the fun begins, cause one attacked Regigigas wakes up and it's Speed, Attack, and Special Attack INCREASES by 50%. However it can be returned to its "Slow" state if switched out, put to Sleep, or Frozen.

:emolga: :dedenne: :raichu-alola: :togedemaru: :morpeko:
I can't help but feel this might not be the best example to use.
Actually, to some, the Pikaclones would be a good example that slapping on an extra Type to a design for the sake of it doesn't always work. While each have their fans I'm sure, the extra Type doesn't really help rise them above mediocrity the Pikaclones are known for. Heck, the most notable Pikaclone in recent years was one of the pure Electric-types (and not for being an Electric-type; Pachirisu just so happened to fill the niche of being a bulky Follow Me user)!

And they might have taken that lesson to heart as Pawmi is a pure Electric-type


Where are you getting all of these? The fact that multiple protagonists can catch them? I maintain that in game canon almost all of these are one-of-a-kind, with the legendary birds, Arceus’s avatar, Diancie, Type: Null, Cosmog, Meltan, Kubfu, and Zarude the exceptions.
Let's agree to disagree.

Remember when Pokemon mostly used berries as their fictional foods? How every berry had a description of an either unexpected taste or unusual feature, especially for a fruit/vegetable?
Remember when berries were also stand ins for vegetables?

now we have realistic apples and potatoes

woot -_-



I personally think its alright, if anything it makes the Berries more exotic. So the Pokemon world does have normal food, and it makes sense we really didn't see any of it because up till now the player had no need of them. Real food was only introduced in order to create different Curry flavors, and we still used the Berries as a flavor/effect enhancer (infact each Berry flavor has its own description).

Fun fact: in Generation III, the Ganlon, Petaya, Apicot, and Salac Berries could only be found in Orre and were the most expensive Mt. Battle items.
My favorite, however, has to be the Starf Berry.
FUN FACT I LEARNED TODAY:
So, before Gen V, in addition to a generic bag description, Berries also have a Tag Description which gave a bit more flavor text about them. This is where those Legendary descriptions above came from. However, they stopped doing the Tag Descriptions in Gen V, so when they introduced new Berries in Gen VI (Roseli, Kee, and Maranga) we had no idea how they were like, used, or any other trivia about them.

... BUT I just learned that, to show just how bizarrely indepth they went with the Curry mechanic, GF had given all Berries an additional description during Curry making! Finally we now know a bit more about the Roseli (has a rich sweetness, elegant fragrance, & used to make herbal tea), Kee (it first starts out burning spicy, and then becomes extremely bitter), and Maranga (peel is very bitter but flesh tastes like a sweet drink); Granted it's mostly about their flavors but that's something. Of course all other Berries got a description, let's see what the Legendary Berries say:

Liechi: A slightly rare Berry. When you eat it, its spicy flavors clash in your mouth.
Ganlon: A slightly rare Berry with unique flavors. Its intense dry and bitter flavors are loved by some and hated by others.
Salac: A slightly rare Berry. The flesh underneath its bumpy skin is incredibly sweet and sour.
Petaya: A slightly rare Berry. It's eye-poppingly spicy and bitter, but it's packed with nutrients.
Apicot: A slightly rare Berry. Its blue part has a very dry flavor and its green part has a very sour flavor.
Starf: A Berry that's considered a myth. It's said to have extremely strong power. Its delicious flavor is otherworldly.

Hm, Petaya and Starf are interesting though sadly the others are generic. Oh well, some Berries do refer back to their old Tag Descriptions, it's a shame they didn't try with all of them.

Just gonna skip over the "A slightly rare Berry" part.

Liechi: Its clashing spicy and sweet flavors causes the mouth to salivate profusely.
Ganlon: Its intense dry and bitter flavors can cause dehydration so must be used carefully.
Salac: It's incredibly sweet and sour flesh numbs the tongue making it feel like you're chewing air.
Apicot: The dry blue half and sour green half cancel each other out so no on knows how to cook it.


There, each Berry now references its old Tag Description to make a fun Curry Ingredient description!

Levitate as an ability should be scrapped.

Instead there should be an inbuilt mechanic like airborne/grounded which replaces it and works in conjunction with the ability of the mon.
Realistically speaking there is no practical solution to the "Levitate" problem.
I think the other issue with this hypothetical intrinsic approach is that, visually, it locks the design and animation of the Pokemon to appear a certain way if there is not a consistent mechanical label like an Ability suggests.
I feel like The Levitate Debate is easier to resolve if you just think of Abilities as magic powers rather than natural expressions of a Pokemon's physical traits (which I think I've talked about before?).
Or, instead of thinking how to give a "airborne" status to Pokemon which are capable of flying/floating, maybe we should re-think how Ground-type Moves work.

Like, instead of it just them strictly using the ground & dirt to do damage, what they're actually doing is releasing tectonic particles into the air. Flying-type Pokemon can remain immune to them as they're naturally air/wind elementals so they have an air current circling around them which redirects the tectonic particles causing them to fall back down (meanwhile particles like powder, pollen, and spores, while still resisted, are light enough to remain airborne so eventually make their way through the air current).

That way we explain why Pokemon which fly and float can be hit by Ground-type moves, why Flying-types (and Levitate users, no reason we can't keep the Ability) aren't affected by the projectile Ground-type moves, and GF don't feel like they need to give a non-Flying-type winged Pokemon hovering in the air Levitate (and maybe can give Levitate users a second & Hidden Ability; also spread Levitate to other Pokemon they may have originally been hesitant too because they don't want it to be that Pokemon's sole Ability).

Oh, and they also won't feel like they have to make every Flying-type and Levitate user hovering in the air. "Hey, Charizard is standing there, use Earthquake! Huh? It didn't work? Oh, right, its Flying-type so has the air current around it protecting it from the tectonic particles, silly me!".

(TBC)
 
even among ppl who agree with me that gen5 newmons set is worst or second worst, gen5 newmons set is overrated
View attachment 454314
even among ppl who agree with me that gen7 newmons set is pretty good, gen7 newmons set is underrated
View attachment 454315

i'll add some more elucidated thoughts so i'm not just listposting, but for the lists 1) i spent like 5 mins on them but 2) i tried to be objective-ish for vague "best for the franchise" type energy, eg i dislike lurantis and like heatmor but chose keep lurantis and remove heatmor. 3) im not really focusing on competitive scene implications here

explaining every single pick would take 10 hours to satisfy nobody, but more generally in this exercise, i found the gen5 mons to be even more derivative-ish than i thought. everyone knows about gigalith golem, swoobat crobat, etc, but what caught my eye is how replacable mons like jellicent and seismitoad felt. (side note: im not tryin to say "remove" mons are Unworthy of existing or saying you're Bad Taste if you dislike a "remove" mon. they have their advantages. i'm just looking at character bloat and trying to call it as i see it re: weight franchise advantage to keeping it vs franchise advantage to leaving more room for more mons.)

i hesitate to directly call mons like jellicent and seismitoad "derivative" because, even tho jellyfish and toad pokemon exist, they have clearly different vibes, typings, aims, etc. yet, mons like the above just didn't feel like they contribute that much. is pokemon that much worse if jellicent doesn't exist? i'd be hard pressed to say so. but for tentacruel, i'd be more inclined to. why? besides being a gen1 mon and having legacy factor, tent has this subtle energy to it. jellicent has cool edgy dex entries, sure, but plenty of mons do and can. maybe im missing something, but tentacruel feels more intricately put together in a way that lets it shine. this might help explain: tentacruel, in a literal sense, suffers from "this is a real-world animal" syndrome, it is a jellyfish, but i actually think jellicent is more afflicted by the syndrome.
:ss/tentacruel: :ss/jellicent:
tentacruel depends on its jellyfish anatomy features to create its menacing energy. its cap hiding those lurking eyes, its poised tentacles–these are integral. the design utility provided by these jellyfish body parts masks the fact that, you know, it's a real animal in pokemon. however, jellicent feels like... a ghost spirit taking the form of a jellyfish for the sake of taking the form of a jellyfish. how do jellicent's tentacles help its design? i dont know! i forget they exist! they prevent it from being SO top-heavy, i guess, but that top doesn't feel super effective either. any menacing energy from "its just this gaping blob of liquid... staring at me inhumanly" feels blunty by the goofy eyes and (especially) by the goofy mustache. the mustache also robs surface area that could contribute towards creepy empty water / empty space visualization.

talking about jellicent (i actually typed "jellyfish" by accident the first time... lol) also bleeds into my next less-immediately-obvious critique of gen5 dex: concept shallowness.

:ss/galvantula: :ss/mimikyu:
galvantula's species name is the elespider and thats what it is. its an electric spider. neat. is this concept shallowness unique to gen5? fuck no. but it feels more pervasive there. why am i picking on one individual pokemon to talk about a systemic problem? to explain more what i mean by "conceptual shallowness" by contrasting it with mimikyu, which i consider conceptually richer for reasons that may not be obvious. mimikyu basic concept is "ghost disguising as pikachu." maybe you look at that and think "that's barely more complex than galv!"

mimikyu has another concept dimension though: being a lovable loser! this concept dimension is continually strengthened throughout its design and beyond. let us count the ways:

1) its disguise is of flimsy, familiar, everyday cloth, and not some spooky ghost magic or ectoplasm or something
2) the disguise is of endearingly low physical quality, with different coloring from pikachu / crayon-like marks / busted mode
3) the disguise has endearingly low "spatial quality"; it erratically shifts and sways in-model, it doesnt move around like pikachu, and it has "busted" mode. it doesn't "idle behave" much like pikachu, in addition to not looking much like it
4) it tries to imitate pikachu, an immensely popular pokemon, a childlike yet relatable sentiment that inspires a caring instinct in players
5) it has a large head, short height, and large forward facing eyes, echoing a child

do you see all these varyingly subtle touches!? do you get how, for example, mimikyu's design would actually be worse and less effective if it was more pikachu-yellow colored?

what else does galvantula's concept and execution have going for it? ive heard some things, but nothing that's really struck me as compelling or greatly executed. i remember hearing something about its fur, static charge, and electricity generation? that's a neat starting point for further development, but i don't think it's executed super well. it's fairly shallow in galv (why should i care that it generates electricity one way vs another?), and the fur is unintuitively/artificially placed and ugly.

another one i remember is something about joltik needing to feed on electricity, but galvantula being the stronger and doing the opposite, outputting electricity to use in attacks. if i remember right, a neat detail, but nothing as strengthened and compelling as mimikyu's example. nothing i can tell about galvantula's design, or even its abilities and moves, paint it as eg protective towards joltiks or willing to share electricity with them. nothing about joltik's morphology seems to suggest a more thoughtful and rich change in electricity manipulation and feeding than "the electricity absorbing tick magically became the electricity outputting spider." maybe galvantula IS protective, and maybe it DOES have some rich morphological connection with joltik that i missed. but i would not have been able to notice without you telling me, which kind of indicates the problem. a trait to me is so much stronger, more interesting, and more impactful when it bleeds through the pokemon and is something you expect to naturally and organically discover by accident, not "oh someone on the internet told me an easter egg" or "i went hunting for nuggets," even if your easter egg is very cool.

happy to take questions on any of this / on placements / whatever. sorry for rantyness/confusingness
I'm sympathetic towards this line of thinking (Gen 5 is the only generation with a design I actually hate), but I think it's extremely unfair to pick Mimikyu as a benchmark for comparison haha, since Mimikyu is basically Design As Storytelling: The Pokemon. Virtually no other Pokemon has the level of depth to its design as Mimikyu, and honestly thank god for that. As great as it is on its own, making the entire dex full of mons like Mimikyu would kill any sense of immersion for me. Imo Pokemon works best when the roster of mons strikes the appropriate balance between an ecosystem of creatures and a cast of characters, and tbh I'd rather it favoured the former over the latter overall.

I definitely think Joltik's design is stronger than Galvantula's, but they both work pretty well for me. Ticks and spiders are both arachnids, so I don't think there needs to be much more of an explanation for how one becomes the other, at least by Pokemon standards. It's also a transition from parasite to predator, which to me is enough of a reason why the switch from feeding on electricity to generating it feels like a natural progression. I also don't see why Galvantula needs to have a particular protective relationship with Joltik.

In general I'm leery of the idea that a Pokemon's design needs to have much depth to begin with, and especially of the idea that any such depth needs to be obviously and immediately communicated to me through its design alone.
 
Last edited:
In general I'm leery of the idea that a Pokemon's design needs to have much depth to begin with, and especially of the idea that any such depth needs to be obviously and immediately communicated to me through its design alone.
I know Rattata is sometimes mocked for being "just a rat".
Early rodents and birds generally tend to look generic, at least in their first stage. Pidgey, Taillow, and Bunnelby are good examples.
There are, however, not-so-generic designs among these as well, such as Hoothoot (stands on one foot, clock motif).
 
I'm sympathetic towards this line of thinking (Gen 5 is the only generation with a design I actually hate), but I think it's extremely unfair to pick Mimikyu as a benchmark for comparison haha, since Mimikyu is basically Design As Storytelling: The Pokemon. Virtually no other Pokemon has the level of depth to its design as Mimikyu, and honestly thank god for that. As great as it is on its own, making the entire dex full of mons like Mimikyu would kill any sense of immersion for me. Imo Pokemon works best when the roster of mons strikes the appropriate balance between an ecosystem of creatures and a cast of characters, and tbh I'd rather it favoured the former over the latter overall.

I definitely think Joltik's design is stronger than Galvantula's, but they both work pretty well for me. Ticks and spiders are both arachnids, so I don't think there needs to be much more of an explanation for how one becomes the other, at least by Pokemon standards. It's also a transition from parasite to predator, which to me is enough of a reason why the switch from feeding on electricity to generating it feels like a natural progression. I also don't see why Galvantula needs to have a particular protective relationship with Joltik.

In general I'm leery of the idea that a Pokemon's design needs to have much depth to begin with, and especially of the idea that any such depth needs to be obviously and immediately communicated to me through its design alone.
wait, what Gen 5 design do you hate out of curiosity, and why?

genuinely curious
 
Speaking of Gen 5, I have to say that I find a few of the character designs quite strange, if not creepy.

Musharna looking like a fetus, for one. The Reuniclus and Garbodor lines IMO aren't exactly creepy, but I honestly thought they were jelly bears and dust bunnies, respectively, in Pokemon form - I was surprised to learn I was wrong. Gen V definitely has something...odd going on with many/most of its designs. Some look quite forgettable (Samurott and Unfezant), some look weird (already mentioned), and some look like Digimon or Yu-Gi-Oh! characters (Hydreigon, Reshiram, and Genesect). Admittedly, many do look quite nice and/or memorable (Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, Braviary, and Haxorus). I actually have no real problem with the Vanilluxe and Klinklang lines, my only issue is that the latter could have been a little more memorable.

IMO, being memorable does not necessarily entail being complicated in design; Muk has a pretty simple design but is quite memorable, as is Magneton.
 
Last edited:
Musharna looking like a fetus, for one. The Reuniclus and Garbodor lines IMO aren't exactly creepy, but I honestly thought they were jelly bears and dust bunnies in Pokemon form - I was surprised to learn I was wrong. Gen V definitely has something...odd going on with many/most of its designs.
I remember seeing "dust bunny" as an inspiration for Trubbish's design.
Also, I won't see Musharna the same way anymore.
 
I also am very cynical of mimikyu because I just find it like it was designed to be a marketing ploy first, a pokemon later, and I hate hate hate when that happens (I am looking at you, wooloo and yamper)
I have a deep and seething hatred for Lechonk. They wanted their rando pig mon to be the next Bidoof so they gave it the dumbest possible name to appeal to meme culture.

I mean it worked, people worship the thing, I still hate it

I adore Smoliv because I’m a hypocrite
 
wait, what Gen 5 design do you hate out of curiosity, and why?

genuinely curious
At this point 'hate' is a strong word because every design either grows on me over time or it just becomes so normalised through exposure that I end up indifferent towards it, but the answer is Conkeldurr! It looks like a buff kidney with an old man's head and a clown nose. It has those concrete pillars that it has to set aside to use 90% of its attacks and it looks like the designer spent all their time on the upper body and then only had 30 seconds to hastily draw the vague shape of legs and feet before the submission deadline.

Normally I can embrace the weirdness of a design but I've always struggled with Conk for whatever reason. With more widely despised stuff like Vanilluxe I kinda feed off the absurd hatred the fanbase has for it and end up loving it.
 
Last edited:
At this point 'hate' is a strong word because every design either grows on me over time or it just becomes so normalised through exposure that I end up indifferent towards it, but the answer is Conkeldurr! It looks like a buff kidney with an old man's head and a clown nose. It has those concrete pillars that it has to set aside to use 90% of its attacks and it looks like the designer spent all their time on the upper body and then only had 30 seconds to hastily draw the vague shape of legs and feet before the submission deadline.

Normally I can embrace the weirdness of a design but I've always struggled with Conk for whatever reason. With more widely despised stuff like Vanilluxe I kinda feed off the absurd hatred the fanbase has for it and end up loving it.
for me the clown nose and weird old man face on Conkeldurr is odd, but the idea of something swinging concrete pillars around is so much more awesome than even Machamp, its clear inspiration. I respect your opinion though and totally understand why you'd feel that way

I think Gigalith is the cooler looking trade evo tho, perhaps

Vanilluxe is too goofy for me to actually dislike
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I made a post about Legendary Pokémon. As for who should lose their status, it's a case-by-case thing. For example, I won't be surprised of the legendary birds lose their Legendary status.
But then... How would we call the no-longer-legendary birds?
I don't think any Legendary Pokemon will lose its status as Legendary, but I do think they can be organized into subcategories:

  • Ascended: Legendary Birds, Legendary Beasts, Legendary Titans, Lake Guardians, Phione, Swords of Justice, Forces of Nature, Type: Null family, Island Guardians, Kubfu family, Wild Horses

  • Exalted: Eon Duo, Cresselia, Heatran, Regigigas, Calyrex

  • Revered: Mewtwo, Tower Duo, Weather Trio, Creation Trio, Tao Trio, Aura Trio, Cosmog family, Necrozma, Heroes of Many Battles, Eternatus

  • Aloof: Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Manaphy, Shaymin, Darkrai, Arceus, Victini, Meloetta, Keldeo, Genesect, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion, Magearna, Marshadow, Zeraora, Meltan family, Zarude

Though, if it were up to me, I would move the following Mythicals:
  • Keldeo into "Ascended" (combined with the Swords of Justice)
  • Deoxys, Darkrai, Genesect, Volcanion, & Zeraora into "Exalted" (I'd combine Cresselia and Darkrai into the "Lunar Duo")
  • Arceus into "Revered" (combined with the Creation Trio)

I mean, the only official title they were ever given as a group in-game was from a Birdkeeper in Gen I who called them the "Winged Mirages", so in a hypothetical situation like the one you implied we could just call them that.
Think a few of the groups which are just known as "Legendary (Thing)" could use some fancier nicknames:

Legendary Birds: Winged Mirages
Legendary Beasts: Rainbow Envoys
Legendary Titans: Gigas Titans

Huh, which 12? Is he talking Gen II alone had all 12 or both gens combined?
(...)
Pig: Piloswine
Rat: Cyndaquil?(there's a bunch of generic small animals, but most of them aren't rats. It's this or Pichu) / Raticate
Ox: Miltank / Tauros
Tiger: Raikou / Persian?
Hare: Azumarill /
Dragon: Tyranitar / Charizard
Snake: Steelix? / Arbok
Horse: Girafarig? / Rapidash
Ram: Mareep /
Monkey: Aipom / Mankey
Rooster: Ho-Oh?
Dog: Snubbull / Growlithe

(...) So if he's talking about both gens, there's something for every slot. (...). But even with both gens, there's a few in there people have debated over what species they actually are for a while. Rooster specifically concerns me.
Bold are my guesses, pretty much went with the earliest "clear" example.

I imagine Ho-Oh is the rooster as it's based on the Fenghuang, the "Chinese Phoenix" which is a legendary creature in the Chinese-Japanese parts of Asia (it's often used as the counterpart to the Chinese Dragon). It's a composite creature of several animals, mostly of birds which usually includes parts of a rooster's head (due to the chicken's iconic wattle beaks).

NEW Unpopular Opinion: Not sure if this goes here cause I feel a lot will agree with me, well except for GF, but I'm kind of getting tired of the "giant Pokemon" gimmick.

  • In Alola we had the Totem Pokemon. First time they made Pokemon big, fine.
  • In Galar we had Dynamax & Gigantamax. Main gimmick of the gen, fine.
  • In Hisui we have Alpha Pokemon. They're just bigger because it's easy to make a Pokemon special by enlarging its model. Overall felt pointless.
  • And now in Paldea we have Titan Pokemon, cause the Path of Legends storyline needed bosses and, like with Alpha Pokemon, its easy just to make a Pokemon bigger than giving it a unique model.
GF, surely you can think of some other ways to denote a Pokemon is special other than by making it bigger than normal, right?
 
I don't think any Legendary Pokemon will lose its status as Legendary, but I do think they can be organized into subcategories:

  • Ascended: Legendary Birds, Legendary Beasts, Legendary Titans, Lake Guardians, Phione, Swords of Justice, Forces of Nature, Type: Null family, Island Guardians, Kubfu family, Wild Horses

  • Exalted: Eon Duo, Cresselia, Heatran, Regigigas, Calyrex

  • Revered: Mewtwo, Tower Duo, Weather Trio, Creation Trio, Tao Trio, Aura Trio, Cosmog family, Necrozma, Heroes of Many Battles, Eternatus

  • Aloof: Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Manaphy, Shaymin, Darkrai, Arceus, Victini, Meloetta, Keldeo, Genesect, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion, Magearna, Marshadow, Zeraora, Meltan family, Zarude

Though, if it were up to me, I would move the following Mythicals:
  • Keldeo into "Ascended" (combined with the Swords of Justice)
  • Deoxys, Darkrai, Genesect, Volcanion, & Zeraora into "Exalted" (I'd combine Cresselia and Darkrai into the "Lunar Duo")
  • Arceus into "Revered" (combined with the Creation Trio)
I don't really think replacing an already vague, poorly-defined, and unnecessary label that serves only to reinforce biases in bad players with an even more convoluted system is at all a good idea. If anything, it's a step in the wrong direction.
 
GF, surely you can think of some other ways to denote a Pokemon is special other than by making it bigger than normal, right?
Hmm it's tricky. I don't think I want a catchable one-off design for a species, because I feel like that 'devalues' all the other members of its species with its specialness (especially since you know GF's designers would go extra hard for the one-off design to make it more appealing). On the other hand, I'm also not sure I want to have a special one-off boss design that I can't obtain for myself. Making it B E E G is just the most obvious way to convey significance and power without increasing your workload too much or creating issues like 'how different does a design have to be before it's a different species altogether?'

Shiny Pokemon are already a little philosophically dicey but at least they're 'just' a palette swap. Alpha Pokemon worked fine for me because PLA's gameplay makes it the only game where a Pokemon can truly feel physically imposing in the wild. The increased size actually made me feel different about them as I was playing, while also having practical benefits for gameplay.
 

Winry

Super Graduate-Level Napper
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't think any Legendary Pokemon will lose its status as Legendary, but I do think they can be organized into subcategories:

  • Ascended: Legendary Birds, Legendary Beasts, Legendary Titans, Lake Guardians, Phione, Swords of Justice, Forces of Nature, Type: Null family, Island Guardians, Kubfu family, Wild Horses

  • Exalted: Eon Duo, Cresselia, Heatran, Regigigas, Calyrex

  • Revered: Mewtwo, Tower Duo, Weather Trio, Creation Trio, Tao Trio, Aura Trio, Cosmog family, Necrozma, Heroes of Many Battles, Eternatus

  • Aloof: Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Manaphy, Shaymin, Darkrai, Arceus, Victini, Meloetta, Keldeo, Genesect, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion, Magearna, Marshadow, Zeraora, Meltan family, Zarude

Though, if it were up to me, I would move the following Mythicals:
  • Keldeo into "Ascended" (combined with the Swords of Justice)
  • Deoxys, Darkrai, Genesect, Volcanion, & Zeraora into "Exalted" (I'd combine Cresselia and Darkrai into the "Lunar Duo")
  • Arceus into "Revered" (combined with the Creation Trio)



Think a few of the groups which are just known as "Legendary (Thing)" could use some fancier nicknames:

Legendary Birds: Winged Mirages
Legendary Beasts: Rainbow Envoys
Legendary Titans: Gigas Titans



Bold are my guesses, pretty much went with the earliest "clear" example.

I imagine Ho-Oh is the rooster as it's based on the Fenghuang, the "Chinese Phoenix" which is a legendary creature in the Chinese-Japanese parts of Asia (it's often used as the counterpart to the Chinese Dragon). It's a composite creature of several animals, mostly of birds which usually includes parts of a rooster's head (due to the chicken's iconic wattle beaks).

NEW Unpopular Opinion: Not sure if this goes here cause I feel a lot will agree with me, well except for GF, but I'm kind of getting tired of the "giant Pokemon" gimmick.

  • In Alola we had the Totem Pokemon. First time they made Pokemon big, fine.
  • In Galar we had Dynamax & Gigantamax. Main gimmick of the gen, fine.
  • In Hisui we have Alpha Pokemon. They're just bigger because it's easy to make a Pokemon special by enlarging its model. Overall felt pointless.
  • And now in Paldea we have Titan Pokemon, cause the Path of Legends storyline needed bosses and, like with Alpha Pokemon, its easy just to make a Pokemon bigger than giving it a unique model.
GF, surely you can think of some other ways to denote a Pokemon is special other than by making it bigger than normal, right?
I honestly don't really understand most of your categorization anyway.... But am I the only one who thought "legendary Pokemon" just meant "a Pokemon that has had legends told about it" instead of any nonsense about it being one of a kind/special/xyz level of power/etc. Like in our own world, the equivalent would be the okapi or manatee, or probably even cryptids. Where some legends there's probably only 1 member of the species (like mothman), but for others like bigfoot I mean who knows. So why does it matter if there are more than 1 or not?
 
I honestly don't really understand most of your categorization anyway.... But am I the only one who thought "legendary Pokemon" just meant "a Pokemon that has had legends told about it" instead of any nonsense about it being one of a kind/special/xyz level of power/etc. Like in our own world, the equivalent would be the okapi or manatee, or probably even cryptids. Where some legends there's probably only 1 member of the species (like mothman), but for others like bigfoot I mean who knows. So why does it matter if there are more than 1 or not?
This is how it should have been, and maybe what they originally intended for the label, but there are non-legendary/mythic Pokemon who have legends surrounding them, like Volcarona, Kadabra, and Bronzong, and there are legendary/mythical Pokemon who either don't seem to have any particular legend associated with them (such as Heatran and the Lati twins), or are so obscure and/or recently discovered that no legend seems to have developed around them (such as Deoxys).

There really isn't a consistent definition of legendary beyond just "this Pokemon is arbitrarily designated as important in the lore", and even then there are a lot of Pokemon where it doesn't make much sense why that is the case. Heatran was always the big one for me; I don't see any reason why Heatran should be considered a legendary and not just a powerful, rare Pokemon in the same vein as Volcarona.
 

Winry

Super Graduate-Level Napper
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
This is how it should have been, and maybe what they originally intended for the label, but there are non-legendary/mythic Pokemon who have legends surrounding them, like Volcarona, Kadabra, and Bronzong, and there are legendary/mythical Pokemon who either don't seem to have any particular legend associated with them (such as Heatran and the Lati twins), or are so obscure and/or recently discovered that no legend seems to have developed around them (such as Deoxys).

There really isn't a consistent definition of legendary beyond just "this Pokemon is arbitrarily designated as important in the lore", and even then there are a lot of Pokemon where it doesn't make much sense why that is the case. Heatran was always the big one for me; I don't see any reason why Heatran should be considered a legendary and not just a powerful, rare Pokemon in the same vein as Volcarona.
I guess I forget that there are official guidebooks that have listings of legendary Pokemon, because in my head sure Volcarona can be a legendary by in game standards too. When I mentioned manatee, I was even thinking of Arcanine, how it's called legendary but can be relatively common in some places.
 
I guess I forget that there are official guidebooks that have listings of legendary Pokemon, because in my head sure Volcarona can be a legendary by in game standards too. When I mentioned manatee, I was even thinking of Arcanine, how it's called legendary but can be relatively common in some places.
To be fair, Arcanine(and Dratini, Dragonair, and Dragonite) were listed as Legendary Pokemon in the 1996 Red and Green guidebook officially made by Game Freak, the same one that was translated relatively recently by Didyouknowgaming and showed that the game's canon in Gen I was significantly different then that of Gen II onwards(Kanto being the actual Kanto region of Japan, the world literally just being Earth, real-world animals/locations/history and everything, Pokemon were discovered in France in the 1800's, ect).
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 0)

Top