Unpopular opinions

[pika pal]

I realized that Baby Pokémon, while for marketing first and foremost, didn’t do a lasting impression that cross-gen evolutions do, with only the occasional Riolu and Toxel for non-cross-gen Babies and Gen 3 also only gave two cross-gen Babies. This makes Gen 4 the only generation since Gen 2 where there are more than two cross-gen Baby Pokémon alongside a non-cross-gen Baby on Riolu. Only Pichu, Togepi, Riolu and Toxel are breakouts while most other ends up being overshadowed except those of already strong Pokémon.

After that, there were no more cross-gen babies (at least, for now), and that is despite the fact cross-gen evolutions as a concept makes a full return after disappearing in Gen 5, nearly replaced by Mega Evolution in Gen 6 and eventually complemented by Regional Forms in Gen 7 and 8 to allow a full return starting with Legends: Arceus. How could Baby Pokémon didn’t make a full return despite the potentials for cross-gen babies? A comment for this YouTube video helped me realize something;

“Personally my main complaint about baby Pokemon is that aside from the Hitmons and Elemental Punch Trio, they were a pretty bad choice of lineup to babify. Vulpix had explicit Pokedex entries about how the newborn has a single tail that gradually splits, Kangaskhan has a baby in its pouch from birth, Pikachu, Clefairy, and Jigglypuff were already sufficiently cutesy and I see the likes of Pichu, Igglybuff, and Azurill more as grotesque than adorable. Just give Mikon/Trifox the base stats Vulpix normally has and buff Vulpix and Ninetales appropriately and they'd actually be relevant without needing to steal Groudon's Ability.”

In other words, while Baby Pokémon is a neat concept, the likes of Pikachu, Clefairy, Jigglypuff and Marill already makes a great job for being small, somewhat weak critter that we would love to take care off, so an even weaker form is not only redundant, but also caused raising our companion more of a pain than it should. There’s also missed opportunities as far as the second Generation such as a Kangaskhan baby as it’s own, indepedant Pokémon that GF have yet to fix this issue.

Overall, I feel like it’s an unfocused concept that only solidifies at the fourth Generation before being dropped nearly altogether, only reappearing as Toxel in the eight Generation. While Baby Pokémon as a whole can still sell well for merchandising, I wonder how much more well received they would be if they focused on making already Pokémon available earlier by making Baby form for them in the first place.

To add onto this, I also think Baby Pokemon are just poorly used as a Gameplay mechanic. Theoretically the benefit of a Baby Pokemon being introduced later is that it gives a way to make a Line available earlier in the game: a good example of this is Budew in Gen 4 allowing the Roselia and Roserade endgoal without giving the strong-for-first-3-gyms Roselia too early, or it's a sort of Magikarp situation where they're weaker but reward you something strong if you raise them up (Riolu to Lucario in mid game). The problem there is most of the Baby Pokemon are for species that either don't take that long to be available anyway, or simply aren't that strong to be worth the babying (the latter especially with a lot of Gen 2's). Some get it like Smoochum, Elekid, and Magby, but others like Tyrogue are late comers anyway.

Also this is me being a stickler, but Toxel being a Baby Pokemon is dumb. It only fits the definition because it can't breed but nothing about its availability or strictly-Level-1 movepool feels like it fits the design purpose of a Baby Pokemon. It just seems like a basic stage weak Pokemon that they took the Egg Group off of because they took the "Baby" idea to a literal extreme.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Friendship evolution for baby Pokemon works thematically, but it punishes younger/less knowledgeable/more casual players who don't know the details of every evolution method. The reward for raising a baby Pokemon is maximised if you make sure to never let it faint and take advantage of friendship-boosting mechanics, but if you don't know about any of that then your baby Pokemon can easily fall behind the power curve and become even harder to level up without it fainting. In my first playthrough of Diamond at age 10, my Budew didn't evolve until Level 28 lmao.

It also creates a slightly awkward tension when the baby Pokemon has exclusive level-up moves. Friendship evolutions are generally framed as something you should try to achieve as quickly as possible (especially when the alternative is continuing to send out a baby to fight for you against increasingly powerful opponents) and the other mechanics of baby Pokemon feel like they're designed to make them seem 'incomplete' in a way that other pre-evolutions aren't, so delaying the evolution for a Pokemon like Riolu to get an exclusive high-level move feels a little weird. On the other hand, when 10yo me was still lugging a Budew around 12 levels after it learned its last move, it's hard not to feel like the game was telling me I was failing as a trainer.

 

[AztecCroc]

To add onto this, I also think Baby Pokemon are just poorly used as a Gameplay mechanic. Theoretically the benefit of a Baby Pokemon being introduced later is that it gives a way to make a Line available earlier in the game: a good example of this is Budew in Gen 4 allowing the Roselia and Roserade endgoal without giving the strong-for-first-3-gyms Roselia too early, or it's a sort of Magikarp situation where they're weaker but reward you something strong if you raise them up (Riolu to Lucario in mid game). The problem there is most of the Baby Pokemon are for species that either don't take that long to be available anyway, or simply aren't that strong to be worth the babying (the latter especially with a lot of Gen 2's). Some get it like Smoochum, Elekid, and Magby, but others like Tyrogue are late comers anyway.

Also this is me being a stickler, but Toxel being a Baby Pokemon is dumb. It only fits the definition because it can't breed but nothing about its availability or strictly-Level-1 movepool feels like it fits the design purpose of a Baby Pokemon. It just seems like a basic stage weak Pokemon that they took the Egg Group off of because they took the "Baby" idea to a literal extreme.

That would be because in the only official context where the term "Baby Pokémon" is used (the TCG) it isn't. Togepi and Riolu aren't either.

The fan usage of the term doesn't actually match up with the official usage. The fan usage is used to denote first stage Pokémon that can't breed, the official usage only applies it to first stage Pokémon that can't breed and were introduced after the Pokémon they evolve into.

 

[Nokocchi]

That would be because in the only official context where the term "Baby Pokémon" is used (the TCG) it isn't. Togepi and Riolu aren't either.

The fan usage of the term doesn't actually match up with the official usage. The fan usage is used to denote first stage Pokémon that can't breed, the official usage only applies it to first stage Pokémon that can't breed and were introduced after the Pokémon they evolve into.

There have been multiple times where Togepi, Riolu, and Toxel were catagorized officially with the cross-gen pre-evolutions, most recently in the 1008 Encounters video where all three were shown alongside all of the cross-gen ones during the montage

 

[Esserise]

The fan usage of the term doesn't actually match up with the official usage. The fan usage is used to denote first stage Pokémon that can't breed, the official usage only applies it to first stage Pokémon that can't breed and were introduced after the Pokémon they evolve into.

The “fan usage” of the term is just putting a name to an observable set of objective characteristics (a Pokémon that can 1) be produced through breeding, that 2) cannot itself breed, but 3) can evolve) that are set by the developers. In light of that, transplanting the term that the TCG used to refer to the exact same set of Pokémon when they were introduced in that medium is just the most sensible option.

If you introduce the further criterion of “4) must have been introduced in a generation after its root species,” you’re left to wonder why Togepi, Riolu, and Toxel are conspicuously the only remaining first-stage Pokémon that can’t breed.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

To add onto this, I also think Baby Pokemon are just poorly used as a Gameplay mechanic. Theoretically the benefit of a Baby Pokemon being introduced later is that it gives a way to make a Line available earlier in the game: a good example of this is Budew in Gen 4 allowing the Roselia and Roserade endgoal without giving the strong-for-first-3-gyms Roselia too early, or it's a sort of Magikarp situation where they're weaker but reward you something strong if you raise them up (Riolu to Lucario in mid game). The problem there is most of the Baby Pokemon are for species that either don't take that long to be available anyway, or simply aren't that strong to be worth the babying (the latter especially with a lot of Gen 2's). Some get it like Smoochum, Elekid, and Magby, but others like Tyrogue are late comers anyway.

Also this is me being a stickler, but Toxel being a Baby Pokemon is dumb. It only fits the definition because it can't breed but nothing about its availability or strictly-Level-1 movepool feels like it fits the design purpose of a Baby Pokemon. It just seems like a basic stage weak Pokemon that they took the Egg Group off of because they took the "Baby" idea to a literal extreme.

I've said this before but the way X and Y handled baby Pokemon was a really good tweak to the format that shouldn't have been reverted. Because all Pokemon in the Undiscovered egg group have 3 perfect IVs when encountered*, it adds an element of strategy onto the decision to catch one vs catching an evolved form. In Reflection Cave you can catch both Mr Mime and Mime Jr: catching the former gives you a strong Pokemon right away while catching the latter means that there's more of a grind involved to raise it but it's highly likely to have much better stats in the end, making it a better long-term investment. It added an extra incentive to use babies when - outside of the instances where they have a special/desirable move you wouldn't get otherwise - it's typically not worth the effort raising one entails in a regular playthrough.


*yes I know this probably wasn't intentional, hence it being changed back in ORAS

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

Idk if this is an unpopular or common opinion but I don't like Close Combat being distributed as a coverage move or widely distributed at all. CC just has the most minimal downside we've ever seen in-game, it's completely reliable with 100 accuracy, it doesn't lower your attack so its super spammable, and it has no recoil so there's no risk of KOing yourself mid-sweep. This is an incredible move but it isn't treated like one, nowadays it's treated as the primary Fighting STAB in the game with almost every Fighting type getting it and a bunch of other mons like Scizor and Cerluledge getting it as a coverage move. I think it should be treated more like Moonblast, which is a paticularly powerful move in its own right, but not every Fairy gets Moonblast and even fewer non-Fairies get it either, instead Dazzling Gleam is the most common coverage move. There are so many weaker moves that can fulfill the role of primary Fighting STAB like Brick Break, Cross Chop, or even Superpower, which is able to be just as strong as CC but with an actual downside to balance out the power. With how important a move's BP is in the damage calculation, a 120 BP should either have a real downside or limited distribution, yet CC has neither. Every other type's primary STAB moves are between 70-100 BP but the already good Fighting type gets 120, just weird to me.

 

[TheRealEGR]

Idk if this is an unpopular or common opinion but I don't like Close Combat being distributed as a coverage move or widely distributed at all. CC just has the most minimal downside we've ever seen in-game, it's completely reliable with 100 accuracy, it doesn't lower your attack so its super spammable, and it has no recoil so there's no risk of KOing yourself mid-sweep. This is an incredible move but it isn't treated like one, nowadays it's treated as the primary Fighting STAB in the game with almost every Fighting type getting it and a bunch of other mons like Scizor and Cerluledge getting it as a coverage move. I think it should be treated more like Moonblast, which is a paticularly powerful move in its own right, but not every Fairy gets Moonblast and even fewer non-Fairies get it either, instead Dazzling Gleam is the most common coverage move. There are so many weaker moves that can fulfill the role of primary Fighting STAB like Brick Break, Cross Chop, or even Superpower, which is able to be just as strong as CC but with an actual downside to balance out the power. With how important a move's BP is in the damage calculation, a 120 BP should either have a real downside or limited distribution, yet CC has neither. Every other type's primary STAB moves are between 70-100 BP but the already good Fighting type gets 120, just weird to me.

This posts makes me wander why the Fighting-type Stone Edge (Cross Chop) has so few distribution around actual Fighting mons, like only the Machop, Mankey, Makuhita, Croagunk and Riolu lines get the move and are Fighting, the rest are stuff like Obstagoon and Incineroar, like, they could have gave the move more variety

 

[KalosianPorygon]

Close Combat talk

I looked up the list of Fighting-type moves, and man, I wish more mid-power moves other than Drain Punch and Brick Break got any spotlight. Hammer Arm, Low Sweep, Circle Throw, Final Gambit, Revenge, Storm Throw, Sky Uppercut, Rolling Kick, Wake-Up Slap... That's a lot of forgotten techniques for some reason. Even Cross Chop and Focus Punch are given less and less attention as time goes by.

I have to get this out of my chest: Sky Uppercut and Rolling Kick are pretty cool moves that I want to see more of. Flawed moves, sure, but Sky Uppercut has an uncommon side effect of hitting flying Pokémon and given to some Fighting-type Pokémon and the Gligar line (!) while Rolling Kick is a very rare move with a 30% chance of flinching, for some reason I thought it fits Marshadow well.

 

[AztecCroc]

I looked up the list of Fighting-type moves, and man, I wish more mid-power moves other than Drain Punch and Brick Break got any spotlight. Hammer Arm, Low Sweep, Circle Throw, Final Gambit, Revenge, Storm Throw, Sky Uppercut, Rolling Kick, Wake-Up Slap... That's a lot of forgotten techniques for some reason. Even Cross Chop and Focus Punch are given less and less attention as time goes by.

I have to get this out of my chest: Sky Uppercut and Rolling Kick are pretty cool moves that I want to see more of. Flawed moves, sure, but Sky Uppercut has an uncommon side effect of hitting flying Pokémon and given to some Fighting-type Pokémon and the Gligar line (!) while Rolling Kick is a very rare move with a 30% chance of flinching, for some reason I thought it fits Marshadow well.

Sky Uppercut and Rolling Kick don't exist anymore and Rolling Kick was trash anyway.

Close Combat gets such wide distribution because of its lack of downside, the next strongest (physical) Fighting moves down without a drawback are Brick Break and Drain Punch at power 75. It's so widely distributed because Fighting doesn't have anything else above 80 bp without horrible drawbacks other than (High) Jump Kick. Asking why it's so widely distributed is like asking why Earthquake is so widely distributed.

 

[Imperial Magala]

Close Combat is also vague enough in its description that it can be applied to many different Pokemon. The common denominator, besides being a Fighting type, seems to be just fighting aggressively and fast.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Close Combat gets such wide distribution because of its lack of downside, the next strongest (physical) Fighting moves down without a drawback are Brick Break and Drain Punch at power 75. It's so widely distributed because Fighting doesn't have anything else above 80 bp without horrible drawbacks other than (High) Jump Kick. Asking why it's so widely distributed is like asking why Earthquake is so widely distributed.

I don't like this as an explanation for why everything gets CC now, because it implies that each type is somehow owed a generically strong, widely available move with minimal downside. Its distribution was decent without being excessive for the first few gens it existed, so it's not like its current ubiquity was baked into its original design.

Bringing up HJK is interesting, because everything that gets both prefers to use CC anyway; it's completely eclipsed every other physical Fighting move outside of incredibly niche combos like Contrary+Superpower. Earthquake is also too accessible imo, but I think the difference between 100 BP and 120 BP is pretty massive in practice, so it doesn't feel as overbearing.

Close Combat is also vague enough in its description that it can be applied to many different Pokemon. The common denominator, besides being a Fighting type, seems to be just fighting aggressively and fast.

I think the phrase "without guarding itself" is important in Close Combat's description (and should exclude some of the Pokemon that learn it now imo), but regardless, this is exactly why the distribution of moves needs to be about more than physical capability, even if some of the Pokemon who aren't given a move like Close Combat end up feeling like arbitrary exclusions. Since moves in Pokemon have the same stats no matter which species uses them, limiting their accessibility is one of the only tools available to make movesets feel unique.

 

[Axiemeister]

close combat being the default fighting-type physical move ever since it was introduced never sat well with me - maybe because its drawback of lowering defenses was supposed to matter, maybe because it's too strong for it to be so reliable, maybe because on top of this gen 8 also distributed it too widely... i don't feel like any type should have a One Move That Matters, even competitively (and, yes, this includes earthquake)

for other high BP fighting type moves to matter, close combat would need to be nerfed in some capacity (power, accuracy, both, or an actual drawback - could become fighting-type double edge and stay in-flavor for example) and also the widely distributed Strong Fighting Move would have to be a move with a riskier or more important drawback, such as superpower again, and/or cross chop.

 

[Sonikku A]

Watch GF nerf it so it can't be spammed 2 turns in a row

 

[Worldie]

Why would they nerf it. Despite what some people think, Close Combat is not a spammable move in VGC.
With the VGC meta generally being faster and much more position based than the singles one, with how much more punishing a wrong switch can become, clicking Close Combat will often turn 2-3hkos into 1-2hkos (expecially as EVing to live specific hits is a relatively common strategy and dropping your defenses carelessly can be very detrimental).

Differently from singles, the risk/reward of the defense dropping vs high BP is a important part of CC in the context where it matters. To the point certain mons like Iron Hands much rather just run Drain Punch than risk hitting a CC into a Landorus or Tornadus switch in and get 1hkod the turn after.

 

[Axiemeister]

i might need to create a don't make me tap the sign meme and the sign says "we know vgc is the official competitive format and we know how double battles work, and that still doesn't defeat the point of balancing moves around single battles, which also have their competitive format and also are the format of the actual game"

 

[AztecCroc]

i might need to create a don't make me tap the sign meme and the sign says "we know vgc is the official competitive format and we know how double battles work, and that still doesn't defeat the point of balancing moves around single battles, which also have their competitive format and also are the format of the actual game"

Yes, but GameFreak only ever nerf things for balance reasons for doubles. They'll buff things to make them better in singles but they won't nerf them.

Which I personally think is a good thing, I've never agreed with nerfing specific Pokémon or moves.

 

[Axiemeister]

Yes, but GameFreak only ever nerf things for balance reasons for doubles. They'll buff things to make them better in singles but they won't nerf them.

Which I personally think is a good thing, I've never agreed with nerfing specific Pokémon or moves.

oh, i don't disagree that their focus is doubles, i just think they should balance other aspects of their product if it makes it better. if nerfing a mon, move or ability makes the game more engaging, competitive etc then i am all for it

 

[Hugin]

I've said this before but the way X and Y handled baby Pokemon was a really good tweak to the format that shouldn't have been reverted. Because all Pokemon in the Undiscovered egg group have 3 perfect IVs when encountered*, it adds an element of strategy onto the decision to catch one vs catching an evolved form. In Reflection Cave you can catch both Mr Mime and Mime Jr: catching the former gives you a strong Pokemon right away while catching the latter means that there's more of a grind involved to raise it but it's highly likely to have much better stats in the end, making it a better long-term investment. It added an extra incentive to use babies when - outside of the instances where they have a special/desirable move you wouldn't get otherwise - it's typically not worth the effort raising one entails in a regular playthrough.


*yes I know this probably wasn't intentional, hence it being changed back in ORAS

That does solve what I've said before, which is that baby mons need an actual reason to be used for people to use them. Most Baby Mons are just bad with no redeeming qualities. Budew/Magby/Elekid make their lines available early, which is nice, but none of their evos are all that sought-after, so it doesn't make the baby concept that interesting. And the exclusive moves are fine, but due to the nature of baby mons(weak), most of the moves suck. The 3 Perfect IVs are at least something good, even if most players won't know about that.

Also if GameFreak cares so much about VGC, why are there no doubles battles in the actual games that people play?

 

[Worldie]

Also if GameFreak cares so much about VGC, why are there no doubles battles in the actual games that people play?

My honest reply is that they probably don't know how to design them without keeping the game simple.
Ultimately the target audience for the "story" are still sub 10 year old kids, and they want to keep the plotline simple to clear without overloading with informations.

They've actually been trying last two gens to give a bit of double battles, there's been segments of the plot that were exclusively double battles or "pseudo double" (you and AI vs either two enemies or a giant enemy) as well as both games having post game doubles activity (gen 9 doesn't have it yet but iirc DLC2 was stated to be mainly doubles focused) but it does look like they struggle to come up with doubles that aren't "thematic".

 

[KalosianPorygon]

Bringing up HJK is interesting, because everything that gets both prefers to use CC anyway; it's completely eclipsed every other physical Fighting move outside of incredibly niche combos like Contrary+Superpower.

Actually, High Jump Kick's Base Power went from 100 to 130 since Generation V, and I remember Mienshao and Medicham using HJK over Close Combat in the past.
Why is 10 more BP now less important than 100% accuracy, I am not sure. Evasion is banned on Smogon, and power creep means you sometimes want the more powerful option available (this is why plenty of Fire-type Pokémon use Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower now for example).

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Actually, High Jump Kick's Base Power went from 100 to 130 since Generation V, and I remember Mienshao and Medicham using HJK over Close Combat in the past.
Why is 10 more BP now less important than 100% accuracy, I am not sure. Evasion is banned on Smogon, and power creep means you sometimes want the more powerful option available (this is why plenty of Fire-type Pokémon use Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower now for example).

Mienshao and Medicham didn't get Close Combat until gens 8 and 9, respectively. The Jump Kicks also had their crash damage increased in every generation until it reached its current state in gen 5, starting at "basically inconsequential" and arriving at "if this misses or you kick a Ghost or Protect you're super fucked"

 

[KalosianPorygon]

The Jump Kicks also had their crash damage increased in every generation until it reached its current state in gen 5, starting at "basically inconsequential" and arriving at "if this misses or you kick a Ghost or Protect you're super fucked"

Frick I forgot Ghosts somehow.

 

[pika pal]

Actually, High Jump Kick's Base Power went from 100 to 130 since Generation V, and I remember Mienshao and Medicham using HJK over Close Combat in the past.
Why is 10 more BP now less important than 100% accuracy, I am not sure. Evasion is banned on Smogon, and power creep means you sometimes want the more powerful option available (this is why plenty of Fire-type Pokémon use Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower now for example).

Besides the Crash damage, a big reason Mienshao liked High Jump Kick was because Reckless would boost the damage on it without (guaranteed) recoil, which made a notable Power difference for it as a Fast Frail Wallbreaker who probably wouldn't survive too much punishment

252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 256-303 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 198-234 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While I assume it prefers Close Combat nowadays, there is a legitimate reason to consider the move on it even with both available, though may fall under the "niche combos" flag like Contrary Superpower.

I think this is the big issue I have too. Close Combat as a 100 or even 110 BP move might be a lot more manageable given its downside, or if it simply removed it/reduced it further (like just a DEF drop) to be a 95 BP move or something as coverage, making it like a Pokemon picking between Surf/Hydro Pump or Dragon Claw/Outrage as a "reliable vs powerful" choice.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Actually, High Jump Kick's Base Power went from 100 to 130 since Generation V, and I remember Mienshao and Medicham using HJK over Close Combat in the past.
Why is 10 more BP now less important than 100% accuracy, I am not sure. Evasion is banned on Smogon, and power creep means you sometimes want the more powerful option available (this is why plenty of Fire-type Pokémon use Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower now for example).

I wish people would be a little more charitable. I'm well aware of HJK's power boost (it's a little patronising to assume I somehow missed it for five successive generations!), but my statement still holds true. As soon as Medicham and Mienshao got Close Combat, it definitively became the STAB move of choice.

Besides the Crash damage, a big reason Mienshao liked High Jump Kick was because Reckless would boost the damage on it without (guaranteed) recoil, which made a notable Power difference for it as a Fast Frail Wallbreaker who probably wouldn't survive too much punishment

To my knowledge, Regenerator Mienshao with Close Combat has been by far the preferred set in the generations where it's had access to both STAB options. Regenerator is just that busted an Ability, even on a mon as frail as Mienshao, that it eclipses even the Reckless power boost. Reckless HJK is fun to play with in-game, but Mienshao doesn't have the tools (e.g. other recoil moves, or, crucially, a secondary STAB) to make good use of it in competitive play imo.