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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
This part of the forums isn't really for competitive stuff.
I don't think so. The forums for individual Smogon metagames can be found here, the place for higher-level Smogon policy stuff can be found here, and the forums for official Game Freak metagames like VGC can be found here. Posting in the Policy Review subforum requires either a badge or special permission.
Also keep in mind that people there tend to not be very receptive to stuff. Actually I've never been to the VGC forums so they might be pretty chill there, but the other two places can get very elitist.
now that Certainly Very Normal post got me thinking - what if gamefreak decided to erase a type from existence? like fairy from the TCG but in the main series? "we decided steel was a mistake. the type is gone. steel mons will be redirected to other types or simply become monotypes of their other type. gg guys." it certainly sounds like a mess, but i never thought about it before and at this point i am not immediately saying no to any attempt at shaking up the type table. we need something.
Do we really.
We don't need to change the type table. It's fine as it is.
As I usually say, if you want a perfectly balanced type chart, you can play rock / paper / scissor. Part of what makes pokemon's charm unique is the fact the type chart isnt a rock / paper / scissor scenario, but a way more complex thing.
This post could have definitely ended here.
Why? What other similar games is it in?
While statistically and aesthetically they're not particularly monstrous, both their dex entries infer that they're full of immense power (Altaria Emerald dex entry: It launches intensely hot fireballs from its mouth) and have savage dispositions (Kingdra Sapphire dex entry: Kingdra sleeps on the seafloor where it is otherwise devoid of life. When a storm arrives, the Pokémon is said to awaken and wander about in search of prey).
They're also the only non-legendary dragons who actually get Dragon Dance naturally in Gen III: Flygon doesn't at all, and Salamence and Dragonite both need to breed for it. It's another gameplay=/=lore thing, I always got the sense we're meant to think of them as every bit as powerful and imposing as others of their type even if mechanically they're not.
(although Kingdra in GSC is pretty fearsome when you first encounter it tbh)
ORAS did that long before I got here.
You gotta give a little respect.
So I want Gamefreak to stop wasting their time with the Doubles Focused Pokemon designs.
I do not mean I want them to stop trying Doubles-Mons (gimmicky or trying for power), but that if they want the Dex to include so many Pokemon that clearly only play their best in that format, the games need more Doubles Content while those mons are available. For a quick example, Passimian and Oranguru are available on Route 5/Lush Jungle areas of Alola, early-midgame catches, in a game that I don't think features more than 3 Double Battles in the entire run (and this is me assuming there are any just to cover my ass) where you could utilize their signature traits (which I find particularly glaring with Passimian since Receiver is its only non-Hidden Ability). SM/USUM actually feel particularly eye-twitching to me because SOS/Totem battles mean the OPPONENTS can utilize these techniques a lot, but you cannot since the challenge is in the 2v1 set-up.
It makes these Pokemon feel very Vanilla (even if they're good) for maingame purposes, and by the time you reach the Doubles content, they often aren't event particularly stand out compared to "regular" built Pokemon that you give Doubles Tools instead of a Doubles Focus.
This is coming off the Indigo Disk DLC for SV, where I actually experimented with the Doubles Gimmick mons because there were a sizable number of fights to actually experiment with them against both regular and boss trainers, so I could actually fine-tune my gameplan instead of breaking it out the one time it works and then just forgetting about it again. Stuff like having to consider EQ vs High Horsepower on my Excadrill or actually getting use out of Fake Out/Helping Hand on a Hitmontop to buy set-up turns. I don't need it (all) to be this level of difficulty, but some reasonable presence of Double Battles in the main game seems like a no-brainer given they design so many Doubles-focused Pokemon AND obviously it being the VGC format. Maybe something like SV's three paths, one could be focused on Doubles as opposed to Singles.
I do not mean I want them to stop trying Doubles-Mons (gimmicky or trying for power), but that if they want the Dex to include so many Pokemon that clearly only play their best in that format, the games need more Doubles Content while those mons are available. For a quick example, Passimian and Oranguru are available on Route 5/Lush Jungle areas of Alola, early-midgame catches, in a game that I don't think features more than 3 Double Battles in the entire run (and this is me assuming there are any just to cover my ass) where you could utilize their signature traits (which I find particularly glaring with Passimian since Receiver is its only non-Hidden Ability). SM/USUM actually feel particularly eye-twitching to me because SOS/Totem battles mean the OPPONENTS can utilize these techniques a lot, but you cannot since the challenge is in the 2v1 set-up.
It makes these Pokemon feel very Vanilla (even if they're good) for maingame purposes, and by the time you reach the Doubles content, they often aren't event particularly stand out compared to "regular" built Pokemon that you give Doubles Tools instead of a Doubles Focus.
This is coming off the Indigo Disk DLC for SV, where I actually experimented with the Doubles Gimmick mons because there were a sizable number of fights to actually experiment with them against both regular and boss trainers, so I could actually fine-tune my gameplan instead of breaking it out the one time it works and then just forgetting about it again. Stuff like having to consider EQ vs High Horsepower on my Excadrill or actually getting use out of Fake Out/Helping Hand on a Hitmontop to buy set-up turns. I don't need it (all) to be this level of difficulty, but some reasonable presence of Double Battles in the main game seems like a no-brainer given they design so many Doubles-focused Pokemon AND obviously it being the VGC format. Maybe something like SV's three paths, one could be focused on Doubles as opposed to Singles.
And why are the dogs unrelated? If you want to do multiple lines based on the same thing, sure, but DO SOMETHING with that. 3 dog lines, all single-typed, all 2-stage lines. And they have different BSTs, different evo levels, don't have similar abilities or learnsets...They're very clearly not counterparts, so why introduce all 3 of them at the same time?
The question isn't why. It's why not.
As I implied, "everyone loves puppies" (you included, you literally have one as avatar...). There's a gazillion dog species in the real world, and most of them have nothing in common other than being dogs, I don't see anything weird in having a gazillion unrelated dog (or cat) species in Pokemon either.
I want to believe the same reason you get attacked by an aggressive flower after descending into a chasm, the same reason Terrapagos's signature move is Terra Starstorm, and the same reason a person's hopes and dreams is the main motif of the whole game.
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I certainly wouldn’t mind the Mons that are built for doubles if they did way more of what indigo disk did. It’s still a little boggling how despite being the focus of competitive battling, it took them like 20 years to make another game/dlc that actually focuses on doubles; instead of making everything singles focused outside the obligatory handful of fights that are double batttles.
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Yeah if anything, I don't mind the fact that several Pokemon are built around Doubles. They've been doing that for a long time, even as early as Gen 5 with Pokemon such as Klinklang and Whimsicott having skillsets expressly designed for them to shine in a Doubles environment. And Doubles is actually a really fun format that invites different, and oftentimes more fun types of strategy than Singles.
They just really need to have more substantial story content that has Doubles so that such Pokemon can shine and people have room to be able to experiment with and play with these kinds of Pokemon who are designed around such a format. Indigo Disk was a great step in the right direction in that regard, being a campaign focused entirely on Doubles.
Especially since Doubles is being pushed as the official competitive format, with VGC ever since Gen 4 having its most official format being 4v4 Doubles, having more campaigns focused on Doubles not only invites room for Doubles-designed Pokemon to shine in a single-player story campaign, but also allows players to become more familiar with the format so that they more smoothly transition into the official competitive battling scene if they feel like it.
The biggest problem imo before Indigo Disk is that actual single-player content where Double Battles are prominent has been incredibly sparse, so many Pokemon that are designed around Doubles don't really get to put their most unique capabilities and skills to use. More in-game Double Battles is something I'd like to see, because Doubles is a very, very fun format that invites very unique strategies from my experience and for many reasons having more Doubles oriented campaigns would be a very welcome addition in my book. That doesn't mean Singles-oriented campaigns should be eliminated, but more heavily Doubles oriented campaigns like Colosseum/XD and Indigo Disk would be very good in my book.
They just really need to have more substantial story content that has Doubles so that such Pokemon can shine and people have room to be able to experiment with and play with these kinds of Pokemon who are designed around such a format. Indigo Disk was a great step in the right direction in that regard, being a campaign focused entirely on Doubles.
Especially since Doubles is being pushed as the official competitive format, with VGC ever since Gen 4 having its most official format being 4v4 Doubles, having more campaigns focused on Doubles not only invites room for Doubles-designed Pokemon to shine in a single-player story campaign, but also allows players to become more familiar with the format so that they more smoothly transition into the official competitive battling scene if they feel like it.
The biggest problem imo before Indigo Disk is that actual single-player content where Double Battles are prominent has been incredibly sparse, so many Pokemon that are designed around Doubles don't really get to put their most unique capabilities and skills to use. More in-game Double Battles is something I'd like to see, because Doubles is a very, very fun format that invites very unique strategies from my experience and for many reasons having more Doubles oriented campaigns would be a very welcome addition in my book. That doesn't mean Singles-oriented campaigns should be eliminated, but more heavily Doubles oriented campaigns like Colosseum/XD and Indigo Disk would be very good in my book.
Honestly I think that the way SV has a pretty enjoyable singles main story which culminates in a solid doubles final DLC is ok. Ultimately having double battles as main part of the main story is kinda useless, low level pokemon don't really have any real doubles interaction bar some gimmicks like dondogiri or minun and plusle, so a singles main story with the odd doubles gym is fine.
I would however rather have some sort of "Doubles endgame" in the main game already, without needing to wait for the inevitable DLCs. I don't say to bring back facilities (not that I would mind, but I've stated multiple times why they won't be coming back), but having more bits of the postgame dedicated to doubles would be a better introduction for newer players to the concept, as well as giving a easier time to showcase doubles specific interactions that may be new to the generation (like previously mentioned dondozo-tatsugiri or the alolan monkeys)
I would however rather have some sort of "Doubles endgame" in the main game already, without needing to wait for the inevitable DLCs. I don't say to bring back facilities (not that I would mind, but I've stated multiple times why they won't be coming back), but having more bits of the postgame dedicated to doubles would be a better introduction for newer players to the concept, as well as giving a easier time to showcase doubles specific interactions that may be new to the generation (like previously mentioned dondozo-tatsugiri or the alolan monkeys)
Maybe, but a lot of low-level moves have the potential for doubles use that never gets utilized because they're already outclassed by the time doubles becomes relevant. For example, the level 1 status trio of Growl, Leer, and Tail Whip all hit both opponents in a double battle.
(You have VGC experience, are Leer and Tail Whip used in serious doubles? Growl I understand being outclassed by Intimidate, but lesser spread physical Fake Tears sounds genuinely strong, especially if combined with Rock Slide)
Not really, debuffs have to be very powerful or provide extra effects in order to be actually worth using.
Es, Breaking swipe is used on Roaring Moon and some other due to hitting both targets, lowering attack and breaking sashes as well as dealing decent damage coming off protosyntesis boosted attack. Thundurus' Prankster Eerie Impulse has seen usage due to being a big fuck you to Dynamaxed special attackers. But a simple -1 without any extra flair is rarely enough to justify the moveslot on a format where most mons already basically run 3 moves due to near-mandatory Protect.
Though I do remind some 99head guy using Leer Arcanine to trigger a Defiant Kingambit in order to actually OHKO it with Foul Play... ok that was a bit too much brainpower and situational.
That said I do see your point and I agree that the odd double battle during main story is fine. Like the ghost gym showcasing a Boomburst + ghost types interaction, or Raihan in SwSh showcasing weather teams. But in long run a "doubles main story" isnt that much different from a "singles" one. People all praise the N64 games for their doubles-focused gameplay, but forget most of the battles in that game don't really have "doubles strategy", just happens to be 4 pokemon on the field instead of 2 with no inherent sinergy going on.
I know this is from a few pages ago but no one commented on it. I grew up with Gen 5, it was my favorite since before everyone suddenly realized it was good, and if anything I agree with you because I've played through BW so many times before. I'm the type of person who plans their teams out beforehand and doesn't like to repeat types too much, and I always end up choosing from the same pool of mons because of how the game is structured. I'd always plan to use things like Golurk or Bisharp because they're really cool mons but between evolution levels and availability it'd just be better to use Excadrill, Krookodile, Chandelure, etc. People joke about Sinnoh (esp DP) encouraging starter/garchomp/staraptor/lucario/(one of floatzel or roserade)/luxray teams but if anything BW1 were bigger offenders wrt that, even if the pool of viable mons feels slightly bigger than DP.
Also, have people really said that BW don't feel linear? Back when hating BW was cool I remember people pointing out how linear they were compared to Sinnoh, Johto, or Kanto (Hoenn has a bit of exploration with the 7.8/10toomuchwater sections, but otherwise you're just going from point A to point B).
Re: Alola, I agree. It's probably the best you can expect from the 3D era of pokemon as it stands. It's too bad because SV and its DLCs had a lot of cool ideas, and you can tell the game would've been a fan favorite if it had been given proper development time to flesh out Paldea, make its locations memorable, and balance the open world aspect so that you aren't just encouraged to fight gyms in order based on level. (I'm not a fan of open world design in turn based RPGs, and I think other games like SMT V have suffered because of this, but it's possible to make an open-world Pokemon game that is still enjoyable)
I take the opposite view, doubles with a singles-focused team is painful. Nothing has Protect, you have spread moves that hit your allies, you don't have any pure support mons, etc. Throwing Raihan or Ryme into the lategame doesn't let people learn the format, build a team, and gain experience with it, it just gives people a one-off change of pace, exactly as relevant as Sky Battles or the Inverse House from XY(less relevant, tbh).
If they want doubles to be a thing(and apparently they do, given that it's the official format and all), it would behoove them to make it so people can experience doubles properly in-game. Otherwise, cut the doubles battles completely.
not unpopular (for this place) opinion time: i am not even a fan of double battles (not even just in a game; watching them is distinctly worse than singles to me) and would be perfectly fine if they never existed, and they know most people aren't, given the main games, the anime and most spin-offs very much focus on single battles. competitively it just happens to be... i wouldn't say more balanced, but... harder enough to break that they don't need to actually keep a banlist...? than singles, and that made them focus on it.
You know, looking back it's actually really weird there've only been two doubles-centred gyms
I mean yeah obviously they were going to do a doubles gym in Hoenn, it's the generation double battles were introduced and they always display the new feature (though we didn't get a triples or rotation gym... I think we can all agree BW fumbled triples/rotational battles badly). It's one of the things Emerald does best: that virtually every route has one or two or even three or four 2v2 fights set up on it, whether it's a pair of Twins or two unconnected trainers who gang up on you.
And DPP to my recollection do go quite out of their way to throw double battles at you fairly frequently but... like, this is something that really should have been a staple in future games. Even if it is just one gym leader out of eight, it's a concept that has been a mainstay since Gen III but for some reason is largely restricted to the postgame. And yeah not everyone likes double battles okay whatever, but that's hardly a justification to exclude it when there's all sorts of mechanics throughout the game you're often forced to try at least once. In an ingame run you rarely need a strategy more complex than "use strong moves": very few double battles pre-Raihan have a specialisation beyond the occasional Earthquake+Levitate combo.
I mean yeah obviously they were going to do a doubles gym in Hoenn, it's the generation double battles were introduced and they always display the new feature (though we didn't get a triples or rotation gym... I think we can all agree BW fumbled triples/rotational battles badly). It's one of the things Emerald does best: that virtually every route has one or two or even three or four 2v2 fights set up on it, whether it's a pair of Twins or two unconnected trainers who gang up on you.
And DPP to my recollection do go quite out of their way to throw double battles at you fairly frequently but... like, this is something that really should have been a staple in future games. Even if it is just one gym leader out of eight, it's a concept that has been a mainstay since Gen III but for some reason is largely restricted to the postgame. And yeah not everyone likes double battles okay whatever, but that's hardly a justification to exclude it when there's all sorts of mechanics throughout the game you're often forced to try at least once. In an ingame run you rarely need a strategy more complex than "use strong moves": very few double battles pre-Raihan have a specialisation beyond the occasional Earthquake+Levitate combo.
Part of it is also a different philosophy on what's acceptable. Smogon-run doubles OU is also a format that exists and maintains a standard banlist, while GF also does BSS where nothing stops you from running a team that's fully classed as Ubers under Smogon's system.
BW1 is definitely a very railroaded experience yeah. Having an entirely new roster of Pokemon isn't a bad idea in a vacuum but at the same time the way the Pokemon are designed and distributed in BW1 doesn't lend itself to an experience where you have much variety.
The whole segment around Striaton in the first part is the most heavily railroaded (and boring) part of the game that gets incredibly boring over more replays, and there's literally no variety: it's always going to be Starter+Patrat/Lillipup+Elemental Monkey because that's what the game wants you to have for Striaton.
The distribution of the mons across the game and their evolution levels, movepools, etc. also stands out because BW1 is ultimately also designed in a similar way to Gen 1, with evo levels being distributed with respect to where and at what level you first meet a given Pokemon in the wild, and it tried to do the "single player RPG" design of RGBY. Which means a lot of early route Pokemon are good early on, but fall off in power and become less impressive later, while the latter part of the dex has Pokemon who are good in the late and end-game but evolve late and are often encountered late. Which is to say, it does feel they intended for BW1 to be played as a rotating team experience, you start using early route mons first and then boot them off once they're not cutting it anymore and you keep catching mons and having later ones take over once they're strong enough. A lot of early route mons like Swoobat, the elemental monkeys, Watchog, Liepard, and whatnot stand out as notably average or unimpressive and become increasingly underwhelming later, and then the latter half of the dex has really good stuff like Chandelure, Haxorus, Bisharp, etc. who are great, but don't reach their potential until very late. Hydreigon is the most notorious offender in the latter group.
I know Sinnoh gets memed a lot (and I grew up with Sinnoh and that was my most formative region) but I think that's just a matter of DPP frontloading you with really good options right off the bat. Starly is one of the best early game birds in combat, and is designed in a way where it will be a very strong and good Pokemon for the whole playthrough, and Shinx is a solid three-stage Electric-type, and Garchomp is a late game mon but is one of the most usable late bloomers in-game, only other ones I feel have been as good for in-game playthroughs in my experience are Metagross, Goodra, and Baxcalibur. DP doesn't really have that much variety (no fucking Fire-types lol) but it often ends up with same-y teams simply because the options it does give you are good, so you're just that naturally inclined to use them. They're good in combat and have really great designs (Starly and Shinx have a well made cute->badass progression in design). There's still plenty of other good stuff to try out especially in Platinum, Abomasnow for instance has been a surprisingly great mon whenever I've used it and has been a great late-game asset on my teams. Skuntank, Bronzong, Toxicroak in Platinum, Drapion, and whatnot are all pretty great and there are some solid options across the region, it just so happens the early game options are so compelling because they're just good. In Platinum I've found Electivire, Magmortar, and Glaceon to be nice to have on a team.
BW1 on the other hand had the opposite situation where most of the early-route options are really...not good long term and not the kind you want to keep around on your team barring a select few exceptions. No one is gonna want to keep the monkeys, Swoobat, or Watchog on a team long term. I actually do feel it has its own constant team composition from what I've noticed: it's often Samurott/Serperior+Zebstrika+Excadrill/Krookodile+Haxorus+Chandelure+Carracosta/Archeops. The fossils are good, Zebstrika, Excadrill, and Krookodile are all reasonably solid early obtainable options, and Haxorus and Chandelure can feasibly make it in time for the first E4 run and hit hard as shit. I highlight Samurott and Serperior because those two were way more popular among people than Emboar, there seems to be a general level of dislike towards Emboar sadly.
But yeah BW1 is a pretty linear experience and the distribution of its roster doesn't lend to a variety of teams, much less a variety of teambuilding styles.