Where did close combat hate come from?
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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Mostly how ubiquitous it's become distribution-wise (to the point getting it is not as unique anymore) and how it practically supplanted every other physical fighting type move in existence bar drain punch (well idk if that applies for everyone or if it's just me). That's just my perspective tho.
Nah you're so based for this, LOL
Exactly. At first, the balance of CC was like:
Scenario 1: Infernape punched through something with Close Combat. Now they got something with priority on the field. Do you keep Ape in at -1 and likely get clapped, or do you switch in something else and let your opponent get momentum?
Scenario 2: Hariyama yeeted something with Close Combat. Now they got an attacker on the field, and Yama's otherwise solid bulk is compromised because it's at -1, can it take a hit? Should it take a hit?
Close Combat is a fine move imo. I think it's interestingly balanced- for a faster pokemon like infernape, you often have to be sure that you KO because at -1 you die to most attacks, sort of like gen 1 hyper beam, while slower pokemon have the downside of needing to take a hit before using it. It's not THAT strong- you won't be KOing neutral non-bulky targets (I'm thinking like support cinderace) with a non-stab close combat, and again, close combat is so much more reliant on getting that KO than a generic stab move like EQ. There's also the fact that fighting, while it does have a few key SE hits like dark and steel, is also far from a spammable type with resistances from ghost, fairy, flying, poison, and sometimes even bug. But you could say the same thing about Wellspring's Ivy Cudgel thudding into our many (6 OU proper and 8 at B or above on the viability rankings) dragons, and the difference in spammability is unreal- the point to make here is that when you use Close Combat, you basically are forced to switch out unless you are faster and can KO the next turn. So yeah, a balanced move, way more than that piece of shit Knock Off.
Also y'all are seriously exaggerating how many things get close combat, look at it versus earthquake knock off u-turn on showdown and you'll see the difference.
Also y'all are seriously exaggerating how many things get close combat, look at it versus earthquake knock off u-turn on showdown and you'll see the difference.
Again, CC is a great move, ain't nothing wrong with it.
You could even make the case that Knock Off shouldn't be a TM either, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Certain moves just shouldn't be TMs.
While I agree in a vacuum, and I don't have a problem with Close Combat being a TM on paper, I have always kind of disliked the decision to let almost every Fighting-type have access to Close Combat after it became a TM.
And I'm not saying this because I think Close Combat is too good of a move per se, but rather from a flavor standpoint Close Combat becoming a more homogenous STAB for all Fighting-types really takes away from the variety and flavor that has always made Fighting-type Pokemon so interesting to me. What makes Fighting-type so interesting from a flavor standpoint is that there are so many powerful moves: Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, High Jump Kick/Jump Kick, and some weaker but more utilitarian moves like Brick Break, Drain Punch, and Power-Up Punch and whatnot, and there's a lot of interesting variety in Fighting-type attacks that are spread differently across different Pokemon. Because Fighting is an incredibly flexible type as to what kinds of designs it can invite into its roster, because there are so many different flavors and styles of Fighting-types, and back then not everything got Close Combat, but likely got another powerful Fighting STAB as an alternative, and this made things interesting from a gameplay standpoint as well as a flavor standpoint. You have agile fighters, Pokemon that focus on sheer physical strength and muscle power, some that specialize in some form of martial arts, and so on and so forth, and that's what has made Fighting such a fun and colorful type to me from a standpoint.
Like for instance, we have three Fire/Fighting starters: Blaziken, Infernape, and Emboar. Before Gen 8/9, they all had different Fighting-type techniques they could learn naturally. Infernape was the only one of the three who learned Close Combat, and this fits because Infernape is a slim, agile monkey and Close Combat flavor wise is the user getting in close and firing a relentless flurry of attacks at a rapid pace. When you look at Infernape, it is very believable for Infernape to pull off Close Combat from a flavor standpoint. Like the other move it learns naturally is Mach Punch, which is firing a punch at a mach speed. This gives Infernape a distinct flavor overall, not just from the other two Fire/Fighting starters but as a whole. Meanwhile Emboar is more of a slow, heavyweight fighter with a large build, and the strongest Fighting moves it learned are Hammer Arm and Superpower. Superpower is as strong as Close Combat but instead lowers Attack and Defense instead of both defenses, giving it a bit of a downside there, but flavor wise it fits Emboar well distinctly because a heavyweight like Emboar is the kind that would concentrate a lot of physical power and then deliver a single, powerful blow to the opponent. Blaziken learns kicking moves like High Jump Kick, and naturally it learns Double Kick and Blaze Kick, because it's a fighter that specializes in kicking. This allows the three of them to feel distinct from one another flavor wise.
I used those three as the prime examples but among the entire roster of Fighting-types the variety in flavor has always been interesting to me and Fighting-type's wide set of moves, each with rather limited distribution among Fighting-types, helped enforce that variety and flexibility. I don't mind other types being homogenous: elemental types like Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, and Ice are predicated on their element and don't invite too much variety in moves to begin with, Ground is a case where most attacks are iterations of "stomp the ground and cause a tremor", like Bulldoze, Magnitude, and naturally Earthquake, and so on and so forth. But I feel Fighting is one of those cases where at least before Gen 8, the variety in its flavor in both moves and Pokemon was/is a big part of its identity.
And I'm not saying this because I think Close Combat is too good of a move per se, but rather from a flavor standpoint Close Combat becoming a more homogenous STAB for all Fighting-types really takes away from the variety and flavor that has always made Fighting-type Pokemon so interesting to me. What makes Fighting-type so interesting from a flavor standpoint is that there are so many powerful moves: Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, High Jump Kick/Jump Kick, and some weaker but more utilitarian moves like Brick Break, Drain Punch, and Power-Up Punch and whatnot, and there's a lot of interesting variety in Fighting-type attacks that are spread differently across different Pokemon. Because Fighting is an incredibly flexible type as to what kinds of designs it can invite into its roster, because there are so many different flavors and styles of Fighting-types, and back then not everything got Close Combat, but likely got another powerful Fighting STAB as an alternative, and this made things interesting from a gameplay standpoint as well as a flavor standpoint. You have agile fighters, Pokemon that focus on sheer physical strength and muscle power, some that specialize in some form of martial arts, and so on and so forth, and that's what has made Fighting such a fun and colorful type to me from a standpoint.
Like for instance, we have three Fire/Fighting starters: Blaziken, Infernape, and Emboar. Before Gen 8/9, they all had different Fighting-type techniques they could learn naturally. Infernape was the only one of the three who learned Close Combat, and this fits because Infernape is a slim, agile monkey and Close Combat flavor wise is the user getting in close and firing a relentless flurry of attacks at a rapid pace. When you look at Infernape, it is very believable for Infernape to pull off Close Combat from a flavor standpoint. Like the other move it learns naturally is Mach Punch, which is firing a punch at a mach speed. This gives Infernape a distinct flavor overall, not just from the other two Fire/Fighting starters but as a whole. Meanwhile Emboar is more of a slow, heavyweight fighter with a large build, and the strongest Fighting moves it learned are Hammer Arm and Superpower. Superpower is as strong as Close Combat but instead lowers Attack and Defense instead of both defenses, giving it a bit of a downside there, but flavor wise it fits Emboar well distinctly because a heavyweight like Emboar is the kind that would concentrate a lot of physical power and then deliver a single, powerful blow to the opponent. Blaziken learns kicking moves like High Jump Kick, and naturally it learns Double Kick and Blaze Kick, because it's a fighter that specializes in kicking. This allows the three of them to feel distinct from one another flavor wise.
I used those three as the prime examples but among the entire roster of Fighting-types the variety in flavor has always been interesting to me and Fighting-type's wide set of moves, each with rather limited distribution among Fighting-types, helped enforce that variety and flexibility. I don't mind other types being homogenous: elemental types like Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, and Ice are predicated on their element and don't invite too much variety in moves to begin with, Ground is a case where most attacks are iterations of "stomp the ground and cause a tremor", like Bulldoze, Magnitude, and naturally Earthquake, and so on and so forth. But I feel Fighting is one of those cases where at least before Gen 8, the variety in its flavor in both moves and Pokemon was/is a big part of its identity.
It arguably has been an issue since Gen 3
When he draws and designs male chars, he almost always has the exact same pants design with little to no perspective, and really stiff poses. It was partially the reason Ohmura took over for designing humans starting in HGSS, then BW/BW2, the dude can draw perspective better for stock art
This wasn't always the case for Sugimori, as his early 90s doujin art had much better volume and clothing variety, but when he got influenced mid 90s of Toriyama's style BUT suddenly had to crunch for Pokemon, his drawing focus/skills for humans faded. He even admitted later interviews that...he wouldn't be hired for merit/skill these days
Ohmura meanwhile, he wasn't ushered into the crunching standard for art. He was an established freelancer, along with other Gen 6 on artists for humans. Sugi improved for model sheet creation, but stock poses are still iffy
Like this
Ironically my unpopular opinion despite saying all of this, I typically prefer char design in OG games over remakes. Being an average looking person with varied mon types is fine, I feel it gets aggressively defined/rigid for role otherwise (oh I use a ghost mon, all my outfits match)
Yes this includes Archie, even if I find the OG art's pose shit
Idk if you made the comparison/demonstrative image but picking Wake as an example for his clothing not having thickness is either blatant cherry-picking or an absurd level of ignorance as he's a wrestler and presumably wearing form-fitting clothes. That said, there should probably be an indent where his pants start on his abdomen and possibly where his gloves start on his arms. His boots don't make a lot of sense, either.
it's tier list Tuesday somewhere!! I can repost somewhere else if too off topic + can resize because they look massive on my pc.
Edit: mainly a vibe based thing with a combination of how much I like the design and how much I enjoy using it in a game. If a design likes Sneasel gets a more usable in-game form later on, I'll still rate it highly because the original design is what I liked.
if golduck was real i would feed it bread laced with roots and bitter herbs
I mean it's not like was playing favorites, Kingler is also in F.
I wish people would treat Sword and Shield as actual games and not scapegoats for tired “modern Pokémon bad” soapboxes in general
While I think the games are mediocre, they have a couple of redeeming qualities. I like some of the new variants on old mons like Cursola and Galar Darmanitan. I think the Champion battle is among the series’s best. I don’t care much for the Wild Area due to low encounter percentages and the game not telling you if something is a traditional encounter in the grass instead of on the field, but hey, being fearful of strong wild mons without badges is a cool concept. I honestly didn’t think the games looked that bad either, mushroom town was pretty cool. Even a Pokémon game on autopilot is still a Pokémon game and thus enjoyable.
Only things I remember distinctly hating are that motion sensor pit gym puzzle and the phoned-in-even-for-Pokémon-standards evil characters. How do you go from Team Skull (one of the most interesting villain teams in the franchise) to Team Yell and “guess I’m gonna cause the apocalypse guys” Rose? Felt like they were there out of obligation - I seriously think the game would have been better without them being forced in there. The Piers fight is kinda a cool setpiece even if a Nintendo DS game had more singing, but other than that yeah the evil plot is an utter mess.
While I think the games are mediocre, they have a couple of redeeming qualities. I like some of the new variants on old mons like Cursola and Galar Darmanitan. I think the Champion battle is among the series’s best. I don’t care much for the Wild Area due to low encounter percentages and the game not telling you if something is a traditional encounter in the grass instead of on the field, but hey, being fearful of strong wild mons without badges is a cool concept. I honestly didn’t think the games looked that bad either, mushroom town was pretty cool. Even a Pokémon game on autopilot is still a Pokémon game and thus enjoyable.
Only things I remember distinctly hating are that motion sensor pit gym puzzle and the phoned-in-even-for-Pokémon-standards evil characters. How do you go from Team Skull (one of the most interesting villain teams in the franchise) to Team Yell and “guess I’m gonna cause the apocalypse guys” Rose? Felt like they were there out of obligation - I seriously think the game would have been better without them being forced in there. The Piers fight is kinda a cool setpiece even if a Nintendo DS game had more singing, but other than that yeah the evil plot is an utter mess.
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This is true, Leon's team absolutely slaps. Rhyperior, Aegislash, Dragapult, and Haxorus are all objectively very awesome but it takes a real man of style to use a Mr Rime and still look cool
Also I find it funny how much people disparge the new games for bad animation when Powerpoint Diantha artwork transition exists in the same game as 3D model battle intros. The corner-cutting has been there all along, guys.
Ya'll remember that from over a decade ago?
You know it's bad when the grunts are given more visual...flair
Ya'll remember that from over a decade ago?
You know it's bad when the grunts are given more visual...flair
Honestly, XY was the awkward gen in terms of the visual perspective. Being stuck between the beautiful limited 3d animations of Gen 5 and far more polished 3D animations of Gen 7 makes it stick out like a sore thumb. All other gens(yes even Gen 8) feel pretty distinct and solid in terms of their graphical and visual parameters; only XY feels exceedingly rough and unfinished. I guess that's to be expected of the 'first fully 3D games', but it is still interesting to note.
They really shot themselves in the foot making Kalos the region where "beauty" is the theme, Alola turned out thousand times more visually stunning
Hell, it's not even Alola. ORAS's Hoenn looks so much better than Kalos does, it's popping with colour and activity. Kalos has a lot of really ambitious locations in terms of rendition (like Route 8's multi-levelled cliffs and beach, Couriway Town's multiple waterfalls, Azure Bay's horizon, et al) and so much of it just looks lifeless and unengaging.
I mean I can think both look bad (along with SV, a modern entry I DO enjoy playing) at the same time, so I'm not sure what this is indicating by pointing to an older-also-criticized entry to say "see they've always been bad."
My thing with SwSh is they have now done 3 games (plus some added content for USUM) by the time we got to SwSh, and the presentation didn't evolve in the near decade since that first outing. XY is a pretty bad looking game objectively, but some excuse could be made for growing pains on designing and working with a 3D style instead of a 2D one. SwSh were their first/one of their first Major entries on Switch technology, but the manner of presentation is still stuck at a level that was mid for the N64/PS1 era with the lacking sound and rather boring camera work. SV didn't really even "improve" on this front so much as scale back the cutscenes to make it stick out less (stuff like the final Raidon battle starting is a genuinely good moment without dialogue): they don't really fix the weaknesses in the direction so much as get better at writing with it in mind.
My issue with SwSh is that it genuinely feels like nothing happens until the last hour with the forced Rose-Eternatus conflict. The framing for the Gym Challenge is nice given it feels kind of compulsory in some games like 5 and 7, but the extent of character arcs is you beating a bunch of other kids until the story decides they're done (Hop becoming Sonia's assistant because he's not cut out for being a trainer, Bede shifting his type focus, and Marnie settles for Gym Leader since you beat her to Champion). Gen 5 has Cheren and Bianca progress through their stories independent of you in parallel, while SV has you playing an active role in the three paths, and in both games' cases, the stories feel like they have some kind of growth/improvement as a result of what you see/do. SwSh feels like your rivals had ambitions but paying off their talk would conflict with main character privilege, so they'll just have to fall back to another option.
There's no running villain conflict like repeated Team Rocket encounters or consistent confrontations with an antagonist like N or Team Skull, and unlike Gen 7 where Aether was bankrolling Team Skull, Macro Cosmos has jack to do with Team Yell so the swerve doesn't pay off or recontextualize anything. As much as we all meme on Lysandre, Gen 6 at least gave Team Flare a presence and his ham-fisted speeches are set-up to pay off with the endgame conflict, almost the opposite of the "where did this come from?" issue with Rose where Lysandre is "really, nobody else predicted this?" when the ball drops.
SwSh just flat out should have been an entirely Gym/League focused story. Drop the Macro Cosmos subplot from the main narrative and just make it traveling the region to culminate in a Champion battle and leave the Legendary Pokemon/Lore to sidequests or post game. With all the other egregious Kanto Fellating they did that Generation, copying its simplified and streamlined structure would have certainly been better for the game than what it went with.
And one tangential hot take sprung off a comment on the initial post: Pokemon at its core is not a particularly engaging Gameplay loop for main game. I enjoy several entries, but charm from the characters or new monsters is doing a LOT of heavy lifting for the revisits. I would say the point at which the game becomes "autopilot" is the proof you have failed in creating the game, my points of citation being Gens 2, 6, and 8, where I don't simply change my line-up but have to actively impose handicaps to play with my brain turned on.
SM/USUM is obviously visually stunning for its hardware but I'd say even XY is above-average. There's some really fantastical and interesting location design like the Tower of Mastery, the Pokemon League and Coumarine Gym. Only real shortcoming that sticks out is the aforementioned NPC trainer jpgs
I'm a gameplay over graphics person - that Diantha stuff just sticks out as particularly egregious to me. I find it overblown everyone jumps on graphics when I've never heard anyone complain before then (I'm not gonna open that can of worms that was that dubious "improving animations" statement here)
HeartGold and Soulsilver is what happens when pretty graphics takes precedent over good design (I talked about this sort of thing to death in my playthrough)
I think in the Reddit Narrative people would likely say post-Gen 5 is when the Champion teams started to be shit, but I'd argue Iris has one of the weakest Champion teams. Period. When I replayed B2W2 I fucking smoked her, it wasn't even close, I didn't need to heal, anything. I was like Level 54 average without really trying and I think her team is really scary on paper but in practice easy.
View attachment 714930
For one, yes she is running a triple Dragon team which is scary before Fairies. Except two of these are some of the most mid Dragon-Types ever and one of them is running fucking Charge Beam and not running its second STAB.
Then you have dual Rock-Type which if you didn't realize, that isn't very good lol, especially the Endeavor Defeatist Archeops when the AI will always heal if I'm correct anyways, then you have Lapras which is just fine. This was a very strong Pokemon in early gens, or in the context of regions like in HGSS, but by Gen 5? Smoked.
Now, the real crippling weakness here, in my opinion, is this team is almost 6-0'd by Lucario, a Pokemon that is going to be used by a lot of people since this is basically the only region where you can easily pick it up and train it. While all three Dragons and Aggron can hit it super-effectively, Lucario is fairly fast and might outspeed Hydreigon, definitely outspeed Druddigon, possibly outspeeds Hydreigon OHKOs Aggron, and OHKOs Lapras realistically.
Archeops should outspeed it, but they gave it fucking Dragon Claw and Endeavor instead of another coverage move. While Lucario can get hit SE by a few Pokemon here, with minimal support and decent switching it can get at least like three kills It should solo all of Archeops, Aggron and Lapras very easily, because of natural EV diff it could outspeed Hydreigon for four, and it can weaken Haxorus for the sash on another Pokemon or get big damage off on Druddigon.
View attachment 714930
For one, yes she is running a triple Dragon team which is scary before Fairies. Except two of these are some of the most mid Dragon-Types ever and one of them is running fucking Charge Beam and not running its second STAB.
Then you have dual Rock-Type which if you didn't realize, that isn't very good lol, especially the Endeavor Defeatist Archeops when the AI will always heal if I'm correct anyways, then you have Lapras which is just fine. This was a very strong Pokemon in early gens, or in the context of regions like in HGSS, but by Gen 5? Smoked.
Now, the real crippling weakness here, in my opinion, is this team is almost 6-0'd by Lucario, a Pokemon that is going to be used by a lot of people since this is basically the only region where you can easily pick it up and train it. While all three Dragons and Aggron can hit it super-effectively, Lucario is fairly fast and might outspeed Hydreigon, definitely outspeed Druddigon, possibly outspeeds Hydreigon OHKOs Aggron, and OHKOs Lapras realistically.
Archeops should outspeed it, but they gave it fucking Dragon Claw and Endeavor instead of another coverage move. While Lucario can get hit SE by a few Pokemon here, with minimal support and decent switching it can get at least like three kills It should solo all of Archeops, Aggron and Lapras very easily, because of natural EV diff it could outspeed Hydreigon for four, and it can weaken Haxorus for the sash on another Pokemon or get big damage off on Druddigon.
Gen 6 hadn't moved on from Chibi yet so they used the anime keyart to try to bring the battle intros to life.
I don't think this is "cutting corners" I just think they were going for battles being a different visual style that wasn't accompanied by the way trainer battles were set to be made, likely in the game's planning stage- ie. IIRC there are no in-battle trainer 3D models besides the player.
Where I think this battle definitely doesn't cut corners is IMO it's one of the most memorable and coolest arenas in the entire series. Left an impression on me as a kid, which I think is kinda what counts.
From here on out, except for SWSH where arenas are part of the aesthetic, almost every Champion Battle is kinda just on a building or something.
I always thought Alola's Champion Arena was a gigantic missed opportunity:
I should clarify that when I say presentation, I'm referring less to the graphical fidelity than I am to the way the cutscenes are staged and "shot" with regards to sound design, still having things like unvoiced "talking" animations, frequent "shot-reverse-shot" type cuts between people interacting, and a lot of digitized sound effects despite more realistically proportioned models vs the abstracted sprites the 2D games would focus on. Even in its more involved cutscenes, it feels a bit like the "budget" sections of old console RPG's like Kingdom Hearts 2 or Xenoblade Chronicles (which had stock animations for "minor" cutscenes) but without the more involved major-moment presentation.
For comparison, I would present the DS remake of Final Fantasy 4, which for its pivotal story scene, has full voice acting for the cast involved, and unique animations are often a norm rather than a "treat" for them with things like characters tossed around or attacking each other.
I pointed to the Raidon battle as a good example of what I meant because it works without dialogue by design, just expressions and body language convey the emotions and understanding that drive the moment. I criticize SwSh not strictly for lacking things like voice acting or more detailed character animation, but because it was one of the latest instance of the series (continuing to present) trend of composing scenes their limitations/style don't do justice to. It's as if the animators were given storyboards for the sequences and animated them shot-for-shot instead of as a blueprint, and even in cases where they got more complex, animated as if they would have other teams make additions for sound/effects that simply didn't happen.