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Unpopular opinions

No one really wants to admit that Gen 2 was when Pokemania was dying. It's very noticeable for the anime crowd that after Ash lost in the Indigo league, interest plummeted as people were mad. It doesn't help that Gen 2's identity is severely Kanto oriented, so even the casual crowd that grew up and left the franchise by Gen 3 care more about Kanto than Johto

The exhaustion is arguably around 2000/2001. Gen 3 just got ostracized cuz of the hardware disconnect trapping old mons + fully abandoning watercolor art + the anime still not fucking dying along with Max being hated
 
On the topic of the Steel type, I believe that it shouldn't have lost its resistances to Dark and Ghost. Alright, I can let Dark slide because Fairy resists it, but ever since the type changes in XY, Ghost has become such an unbearably strong offensive type. Its tied with Dragon for being the least resisted of any types, with only one resistance and immunity for each. Unlike Dragon though, Ghost is better super effectively since it hits two types as opposed to one, which can be proven by how more Pokemon run Ghost as a coverage move compared to Dragon. Every generation has introduced since 6 has created insanely powerful Ghost types like Mega Gengar, Aegislash, Mimikyu, Lunala, Marshadow, Spectrier Calyrex-S, Gengar, Dragapult, Annihlape, Ceruledge, Flutter Mane and Gholdengo all of which have their Success tied to how strong Ghost is offesnively, especially when paired with Ghost/Fighting and Ghost/Fairy, both of which make Annihlape, Marshadow, and Flutter Mane uber worthy, though Mimikyu is also uber when placed in formats with no or little switching like 1v1 and BSS. You know a type is busted when a Pokémon with one STAB gets banned. Steel keeping its resistant to Ghost, it would make the onslaught of Ghost a lot easier to handle defensively, for example, Dialga could carve a niche a TR setter thanks to resistance to Ghost in restricted formats thanks to resisting Astral Barrage from Caly-S, which is the number one threat in all formats. If the issue is that Steel would be too good defensively, then the changes should be making indiviual Steel types weaker, like nerfing Technician for Scizor, no Leech Seed on Ferrothorn, and lower BST for Aegislash. The other solution would be making it worse offensively.
 
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No one really wants to admit that Gen 2 was when Pokemania was dying. It's very noticeable for the anime crowd that after Ash lost in the Indigo league, interest plummeted as people were mad. It doesn't help that Gen 2's identity is severely Kanto oriented, so even the casual crowd that grew up and left the franchise by Gen 3 care more about Kanto than Johto

The exhaustion is arguably around 2000/2001. Gen 3 just got ostracized cuz of the hardware disconnect trapping old mons + fully abandoning watercolor art + the anime still not fucking dying along with Max being hated
I agree with this to the extent that gen 2 definitely had a vibe of waning enthusiasm. (Genwunners are a thing for a reason after all.) It's just that gen 3 was such a clean break from the prior games in multiple ways that it functioned as a clear offramp for that specific crowd.
 
No one really wants to admit that Gen 2 was when Pokemania was dying. It's very noticeable for the anime crowd that after Ash lost in the Indigo league, interest plummeted as people were mad. It doesn't help that Gen 2's identity is severely Kanto oriented, so even the casual crowd that grew up and left the franchise by Gen 3 care more about Kanto than Johto

The exhaustion is arguably around 2000/2001. Gen 3 just got ostracized cuz of the hardware disconnect trapping old mons + fully abandoning watercolor art + the anime still not fucking dying along with Max being hated
I feel like this is giving the anime's decision to make Ash lose slightly too much credit.

I cannot remember why exactly, but I personally didn't catch a good chunk of the Kanto and Johto seasons as a kid. It probably had to do with sports and swim team and whatnot; new episodes aired on Saturday mornings, I was often out of the house (or maybe sleeping), and TiVo wasn't a thing yet. I believe I had to record the Orange Islands finale on VHS since I wasn't able to watch it live. (I definitely know that tape existed at one point, I just don't recall why I felt the need to record.)

I can easily imagine many kids being unable to follow the anime religiously, especially since iirc even the weekday block ran a little too close to when school ended. There might have also been issues with accessibility to the programming block itself depending on how that was handled because cable do be like that. Can't be mad at the loss if you weren't able to catch everything – I sure didn't know at the time. The aforementioned Orange Islands finale could have also negated the negative feelings on how Indigo turned out.

fwiw I was able to follow ADV. Had TiVo by then. But I also distinctly recall dipping out for like 6 months for whatever reason and later coming back to Ash only having one more badge lmao.
 
I feel like the thing about Pokémon’s type chart is that every Type is designed to have some form of use and that even the worst Types in the game can thrive in the right situation. Trying to decide if any Types are over or underpowered isn’t a matter of looking at which Types are strictly the strongest and against what, but rather it’s a complex puzzle that dives into the core mechanics of the game. Which Types are good for a win condition? Which types are good for a defensive pivot? How much opportunity cost am I spending by picking this Type of Pokémon over another? Things like that. Sometimes, you’ll have situations where added mechanics seemingly “break” already existing Types, too- see how Power caused some controversy way back in the day in Gen 2 with the Legendary Electrics in particular because that design archetype wasn’t designed around the idea of universal type coverage.

Every time there’s been Types Game Freak wants to tone down, there’s been some common trends between those Types. In their eyes, a “broken Type” needs a handful of things, and preferably a combination of them. It needs a deep roster of strong Pokémon of that Type, it needs a deep roster of good moves or at the very least one move so good that it helps carry the entire Type (see Psychic in Gen 1 and Close Combat in Gens 4-5), and it needs good unweighted and weighted matchups both offensively and defensively. When new generations are created, however, we see a scenario where already strong Types tend to get even stronger… at the cost of their bad matchups also getting the same treatment. Power creep is a universal phenomenon in this sense, and for that reason I don’t there’s any one Type in the game right now that’s overly dominant or completely ruinous, since even the strongest Pokémon tend to have equally viable answers because of all of the power creep.

Instead of broken individual Types, what we’ve seen more and more of over time is a shift towards overpowered Pokémon who are as strong as they are for reasons other than their typing. Now, it stands to reason that several Ubers are strong because they can use their STABs or whatever, but something like a Mega Kangaskhan pre-nerf or a Prankster Thundurus, to say nothing of all the threats running around in Gen 9, is probably going to be strong no matter what Type(s) it is. Conversely, if a Pokémon’s base stats, movepool, and Abilities aren’t very useful, it’s going to be way harder to make use of whatever typing that Pokémon is given. This is an extreme example, but you could have a Steel/Fairy Pokémon with a deep movepool, incredible base stats, and something like Truant as its only Ability and the Pokémon would still probably be unviable.

Refer back to what I said about the Legendary Electrics in Gen 2, however. No tiering action against them or against Hidden Power currently exists at this time, but when newer mechanics are introduced that massively warp the metagame in favor of certain Types like this, specifically those features the Type chart wasn’t designed for, that’s the kind of thing that breaks a Type in the traditional sense. Rock-Types tend to be slow? Say hello to Speed boosting strategies and both Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Choice Band Aerodactyl in Gen 3 who bypass many of the normal issues Rock-Types are known for. Most Dragons have higher physical Attack in the older generations? Say hello to the physical-special split. Fairies being resisted by the three Types with the most resistances? Slap a Ground Tera on that bad boy and watch as your problems disappear.

Edit to prevent double posting: This whole concept of “later introduced mechanics can break older strategies” is arguably the entire reason Baton Pass has been so controversial for so long, By nature, being able to do things like pass stat boosts or make use of “slow pivoting” (as opposed to the immediacy of just switching out normally) changes how the game is to be approached. That begs the question, though- is every newly developed strategy like this “broken” by definition, if you’re speaking as strictly as possible? And wouldn’t that mean Gen 1 is technically the only generation with nothing (besides Mewtwo and Mew I suppose) “broken” about it at all?
 
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I feel like the thing about Pokémon’s type chart is that every Type is designed to have some form of use and that even the worst Types in the game can thrive in the right situation. Trying to decide if any Types are over or underpowered isn’t a matter of looking at which Types are strictly the strongest and against what, but rather it’s a complex puzzle that dives into the core mechanics of the game. Which Types are good for a win condition? Which types are good for a defensive pivot? How much opportunity cost am I spending by picking this Type of Pokémon over another? Things like that. Sometimes, you’ll have situations where added mechanics seemingly “break” already existing Types, too- see how Power caused some controversy way back in the day in Gen 2 with the Legendary Electrics in particular because that design archetype wasn’t designed around the idea of universal type coverage.

Every time there’s been Types Game Freak wants to tone down, there’s been some common trends between those Types. In their eyes, a “broken Type” needs a handful of things, and preferably a combination of them. It needs a deep roster of strong Pokémon of that Type, it needs a deep roster of good moves or at the very least one move so good that it helps carry the entire Type (see Psychic in Gen 1 and Close Combat in Gens 4-5), and it needs good unweighted and weighted matchups both offensively and defensively. When new generations are created, however, we see a scenario where already strong Types tend to get even stronger… at the cost of their bad matchups also getting the same treatment. Power creep is a universal phenomenon in this sense, and for that reason I don’t there’s any one Type in the game right now that’s overly dominant or completely ruinous, since even the strongest Pokémon tend to have equally viable answers because of all of the power creep.

Instead of broken individual Types, what we’ve seen more and more of over time is a shift towards overpowered Pokémon who are as strong as they are for reasons other than their typing. Now, it stands to reason that several Ubers are strong because they can use their STABs or whatever, but something like a Mega Kangaskhan pre-nerf or a Prankster Thundurus, to say nothing of all the threats running around in Gen 9, is probably going to be strong no matter what Type(s) it is. Conversely, if a Pokémon’s base stats, movepool, and Abilities aren’t very useful, it’s going to be way harder to make use of whatever typing that Pokémon is given. This is an extreme example, but you could have a Steel/Fairy Pokémon with a deep movepool, incredible base stats, and something like Truant as its only Ability and the Pokémon would still probably be unviable.

Refer back to what I said about the Legendary Electrics in Gen 2, however. No tiering action against them or against Hidden Power currently exists at this time, but when newer mechanics are introduced that massively warp the metagame in favor of certain Types like this, specifically those features the Type chart wasn’t designed for, that’s the kind of thing that breaks a Type in the traditional sense. Rock-Types tend to be slow? Say hello to Speed boosting strategies and both Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Choice Band Aerodactyl in Gen 3 who bypass many of the normal issues Rock-Types are known for. Most Dragons have higher physical Attack in the older generations? Say hello to the physical-special split. Fairies being resisted by the three Types with the most resistances? Slap a Ground Tera on that bad boy and watch as your problems disappear.

Edit to prevent double posting: This whole concept of “later introduced mechanics can break older strategies” is arguably the entire reason Baton Pass has been so controversial for so long, By nature, being able to do things like pass stat boosts or make use of “slow pivoting” (as opposed to the immediacy of just switching out normally) changes how the game is to be approached. That begs the question, though- is every newly developed strategy like this “broken” by definition, if you’re speaking as strictly as possible? And wouldn’t that mean Gen 1 is technically the only generation with nothing (besides Mewtwo and Mew I suppose) “broken” about it at all?
Having each type a niche through a mean or another is nice and all, but a bad defensive matchup (be it against too many great offensive types, or too little valuable resistances) or too many duds can end up outweighting the positives, especially if another type can do the same niche with much less issues.

Ice is meant to be a great offense-oriented type, but while a few non-legendary like Weavile, Alolan Ninetales and Baxcalibur saw success, most others ended up being too slow to do this task, and too many are not bulky enough to really do the “mighty glacier” concept well either. Same with Rock, not helped by too many Rock-type moves being less than 100% accurate despite many of the Rock-type Pokémon also slow to begin with.

Bug was a victim of too many duds during the first four generations. Early route bugs being only good for early route? Fine. But when you add other Bug-type Pokémon that are barely better than the early route bugs, we got something wrong. It improves at the fifth generation, and since then it is still weighted down by the remnants of most of the Gen 1-4 Bug-type Pokémon.

I do agree that type alone doesn’t make an overpowered or poor Pokémon, but it does have an influence on how a Pokémon succeed with a designated role. Had the bulky, slow Ice-type got that type replaced by something like Steel, Water, Ghost or Fairy, their viability as a wall or bulky attacker might shoot up at least higher than PU.

This extends to even the first generation itself. Dragon was presented as one of those ultimate types with Dratini line as the sole representative… but they only have set damage in Dragon Rage, while Ghost is stuck with the weak Lick. It took Gold and Silver to put them as more tentalizing types to have with actual damaging moves.

Executions matter as much as the concepts, if not more. If a type concept does not match the type effectiveness well, then of course more than a few Pokémon will suffer just because of the conflict of type, stat distribution and Abilities.
 
There's Grass, but it'd be losing further relevance as an answer to Water if Electric gets better.
Grass resisting Electric makes it a bit more valuable defensively in this scenario, but it hardly matters since it has so many common weaknesses.

I think psychic could justifiably be taken off steel's resists, it doesn't make sense that it would be able to resist essentially mental magic, it's called the steel type, not the tin foil type.
:totodiLUL:

You right tho, the nerfs worked too well now that Ghost and Dark are some of the best types in the game.

also sorry for double post but i need to emphatize: bdsp is one of the best selling remake of all time, only beaten out by lets go who is boosted by being more kanto and introducing go mechanics. Shit on these games all you want but theyre running laps on earlier gens
You know it's a wild take when I gotta bash Sinnoh.

BDSP wasn't as bad as it's painted, but the affection mechanics, forced Exp. Share in a game that was inequivocally NOT balanced with it in mind, and overtuned boss design were crippling.

Idk about you, but I don't play the stock market, I play video games. If we're being honest here, all of that gotta go out of the window and we gotta look at things from a game perspective.

With that said... Everything else you said was right, a lot of "eras" were subjective. Even Pokémania's is questioned when it comes to including Gen 2.

I feel like the thing about Pokémon’s type chart is that every Type is designed to have some form of use and that even the worst Types in the game can thrive in the right situation. Trying to decide if any Types are over or underpowered isn’t a matter of looking at which Types are strictly the strongest and against what, but rather it’s a complex puzzle that dives into the core mechanics of the game. Which Types are good for a win condition? Which types are good for a defensive pivot? How much opportunity cost am I spending by picking this Type of Pokémon over another? Things like that. Sometimes, you’ll have situations where added mechanics seemingly “break” already existing Types, too- see how Power caused some controversy way back in the day in Gen 2 with the Legendary Electrics in particular because that design archetype wasn’t designed around the idea of universal type coverage.

Every time there’s been Types Game Freak wants to tone down, there’s been some common trends between those Types. In their eyes, a “broken Type” needs a handful of things, and preferably a combination of them. It needs a deep roster of strong Pokémon of that Type, it needs a deep roster of good moves or at the very least one move so good that it helps carry the entire Type (see Psychic in Gen 1 and Close Combat in Gens 4-5), and it needs good unweighted and weighted matchups both offensively and defensively. When new generations are created, however, we see a scenario where already strong Types tend to get even stronger… at the cost of their bad matchups also getting the same treatment. Power creep is a universal phenomenon in this sense, and for that reason I don’t there’s any one Type in the game right now that’s overly dominant or completely ruinous, since even the strongest Pokémon tend to have equally viable answers because of all of the power creep.

Instead of broken individual Types, what we’ve seen more and more of over time is a shift towards overpowered Pokémon who are as strong as they are for reasons other than their typing. Now, it stands to reason that several Ubers are strong because they can use their STABs or whatever, but something like a Mega Kangaskhan pre-nerf or a Prankster Thundurus, to say nothing of all the threats running around in Gen 9, is probably going to be strong no matter what Type(s) it is. Conversely, if a Pokémon’s base stats, movepool, and Abilities aren’t very useful, it’s going to be way harder to make use of whatever typing that Pokémon is given. This is an extreme example, but you could have a Steel/Fairy Pokémon with a deep movepool, incredible base stats, and something like Truant as its only Ability and the Pokémon would still probably be unviable.

Refer back to what I said about the Legendary Electrics in Gen 2, however. No tiering action against them or against Hidden Power currently exists at this time, but when newer mechanics are introduced that massively warp the metagame in favor of certain Types like this, specifically those features the Type chart wasn’t designed for, that’s the kind of thing that breaks a Type in the traditional sense. Rock-Types tend to be slow? Say hello to Speed boosting strategies and both Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Choice Band Aerodactyl in Gen 3 who bypass many of the normal issues Rock-Types are known for. Most Dragons have higher physical Attack in the older generations? Say hello to the physical-special split. Fairies being resisted by the three Types with the most resistances? Slap a Ground Tera on that bad boy and watch as your problems disappear.

Edit to prevent double posting: This whole concept of “later introduced mechanics can break older strategies” is arguably the entire reason Baton Pass has been so controversial for so long, By nature, being able to do things like pass stat boosts or make use of “slow pivoting” (as opposed to the immediacy of just switching out normally) changes how the game is to be approached. That begs the question, though- is every newly developed strategy like this “broken” by definition, if you’re speaking as strictly as possible? And wouldn’t that mean Gen 1 is technically the only generation with nothing (besides Mewtwo and Mew I suppose) “broken” about it at all?
I'll go a step further. Trying to balance this game properly is a fool's errand. There are too many variables to begin with, but also the metagame evolves in unpredictable ways. For example, we were talking about Bug's reputation as the worst type of the game, and Scizor just made it back to OU with its Bug typing being a very valuable asset to it (Defensive synergy with Steel + STAB on U-Turn).

With that said, adjustments are perfectly fine.

What really works is having types have identities. Good flavor, good synergy, gameplay that feels unique because of a type besides the type chart.
I'm talking about exclusive moves to a type, like Aurora Veil, properties, like Ghost being immune to trapping, an overall theme, like Electrics being excellent at speed control... That's the stuff that really elevates a type.
 
I'll go a step further. Trying to balance this game properly is a fool's errand. There are too many variables to begin with, but also the metagame evolves in unpredictable ways. For example, we were talking about Bug's reputation as the worst type of the game, and Scizor just made it back to OU with its Bug typing being a very valuable asset to it (Defensive synergy with Steel + STAB on U-Turn).

With that said, adjustments are perfectly fine.

What really works is having types have identities. Good flavor, good synergy, gameplay that feels unique because of a type besides the type chart.
I'm talking about exclusive moves to a type, like Aurora Veil, properties, like Ghost being immune to trapping, an overall theme, like Electrics being excellent at speed control... That's the stuff that really elevates a type.
This. I mean this with all due respect to the competitive scene, but this franchise is a monumental disaster of game design where you can’t try and fix one balance issue without creating three more. But at the same time, you as the developers consciously don’t want Pokémon types or the Pokémon themselves to just be perfectly balanced rock-paper-scissors either. (18-way rock-paper-scissors sounds miserable in that context.)

Going back to the Bug example you mentioned: Scizor just rose back up to OU to my complete shock, and it did so without needing anything truly significant in terms of changes to the Bug or Steel Types (Tera doesn’t count since that doesn’t fundamentally change the details of what each Type does).

I would like to discuss the idea that Bug would benefit significantly from one of these extra effects, but I also don’t know how to do that without getting into wishlisting territory. We’ve seen this work wonders in metagames too- Flying has been called the best Type in Gen 3 by some content creators for example, in very large part due to their airborne nature making them immune to Spikes. Rock has the Sandstorm boost, Ice has the Snow boost, Poison has the Toxic Spikes interaction, Grass and Psychic both have Terrains and Grass is also immune to powder moves, and while Normal doesn’t have any special traits like that, I would argue that Normal representing flexibility is its main trait, as is its identity as “that one Type that has a ton of neutral matchups”. Am I forgetting any of the other Types we’ve all mentioned? I feel like every Type besides Normal and maybe Dragon should have some kind of trait like this.
 
This. I mean this with all due respect to the competitive scene, but this franchise is a monumental disaster of game design where you can’t try and fix one balance issue without creating three more. But at the same time, you as the developers consciously don’t want Pokémon types or the Pokémon themselves to just be perfectly balanced rock-paper-scissors either. (18-way rock-paper-scissors sounds miserable in that context.)

Going back to the Bug example you mentioned: Scizor just rose back up to OU to my complete shock, and it did so without needing anything truly significant in terms of changes to the Bug or Steel Types (Tera doesn’t count since that doesn’t fundamentally change the details of what each Type does).

I would like to discuss the idea that Bug would benefit significantly from one of these extra effects, but I also don’t know how to do that without getting into wishlisting territory. We’ve seen this work wonders in metagames too- Flying has been called the best Type in Gen 3 by some content creators for example, in very large part due to their airborne nature making them immune to Spikes. Rock has the Sandstorm boost, Ice has the Snow boost, Poison has the Toxic Spikes interaction, Grass and Psychic both have Terrains and Grass is also immune to powder moves, and while Normal doesn’t have any special traits like that, I would argue that Normal representing flexibility is its main trait, as is its identity as “that one Type that has a ton of neutral matchups”. Am I forgetting any of the other Types we’ve all mentioned? I feel like every Type besides Normal and maybe Dragon should have some kind of trait like this.
Bug already got a nice identity going on lately with all the debuffing attacks it has, but Fairy getting a resist to it just off U-Turn is a mess.

They should rip that band-aid off and nerf it to 60BP already.

"But what about Scizor!?"
When was the last time y'all seen Scizor in a VGC match? It clearly needs it. :psysly:
Besides, let's be real, one good mon getting buffed over hundreds nerfed is just part of the process, it is what it is. Every game has a winner and a loser. :mehowth:
 
Honestly I'd argue Dark isn't THAT good, it's just hard carried by Prankster (fucking bullshit it gives priority to none volatile moves), and Kingambit's ability, along with the ruinous quartet having hyper minmaxxed stats for 2 of them

When you look at Bombirdier and Mabosstiff, neither make an impact. Lokix is entirely carried by Tinted Lens and priority

It's the same with looking at Gen 5. Only Bisharp was genuinely good, other dark types were eh, Zoroark straight up is ruined by team preview, and only Darkrai is busted cuz >Dark Void legendary BST

Vs fighting where Close Combat spam was extremely common Gen 4/5, which incidentally made being Psychic more valueable as they resisted it. If it wasn't for the Knock Off and Prankster buff Gen 6/7, Dark type as a whole could've become the next old Bug
 
Honestly I'd argue Dark isn't THAT good, it's just hard carried by Prankster (fucking bullshit it gives priority to none volatile moves), and Kingambit's ability, along with the ruinous quartet having hyper minmaxxed stats for 2 of them

When you look at Bombirdier and Mabosstiff, neither make an impact. Lokix is entirely carried by Tinted Lens and priority

It's the same with looking at Gen 5. Only Bisharp was genuinely good, other dark types were eh, Zoroark straight up is ruined by team preview, and only Darkrai is busted cuz >Dark Void legendary BST

Vs fighting where Close Combat spam was extremely common Gen 4/5, which incidentally made being Psychic more valueable as they resisted it. If it wasn't for the Knock Off and Prankster buff Gen 6/7, Dark type as a whole could've become the next old Bug
Before Psychic ironically came into its own as a strong utility Type, I would argue Dark was originally meant to fill that niche. You’ve got Thief and Knock Off as weaker (prior to the Knock Off buff) attacks based around held items, Pursuit to try and hit opponents on the switch, and basically every Dark-Type attack has this trend of “lower base power but a secondary effect to compensate”. Historically Dark has also been more of a defensive Type if anything, only being weak to Fighting and Bug prior to Fairy-Types coming in, and they also resist Ghost which is very valuable and rare in the modern type chart.

Knock Off’s buff and no longer being resisted by Steel is what pushed Dark over the edge for many people, and the Prankster immunity didn’t make matters any better. Then again, Prankster as an Ability is kind of insane, so there isn’t really a best way out of this situation. Gen 9 also introduced multiple strong Dark-Types such as the Treasures of Ruin, Meowscarada, freaking Roaring Moon, and anything that wants to become Prankster-immune with Terastalizing. This new offensive identity for the Type is somewhat balanced out by Fairy being as good as it is defensively, but basically nothing enjoys eating a Knock Off in Singles, and in VGC Dark-Types got an even larger indirect buff with the Tapus being Dexited and freaking Murkrow of all things being a Prankster Dark-Type of its own that can enable the use of the newer Tailwind mechanics and has Haze for the occasional Tatsugiri team.

Fighting is in a unique place in Scarlet & Violet, however. At the top of the tier lists for Singles you’ve got Great Tusk, Zamazenta after it became legal, and Sneasler before its ban, and you also have Koraidon for Ubers and restricted VGC metagames. Behind this admittedly really strong top four, though, there’s not as much depth as some other Types, and even Bug-Types have good debuffing options and U-Turn, to name a few tools. Close Combat is still an incredible move but Fairies exist now and when it became a TM in Sword & Shield a lot more non-Fighting Pokémon got this move making it less unique to the Pokémon that did have it naturally. They retain Bulk Up (or Victory Dance, for Hisuian Lilligant) and also have STAB on the popular move Body Press, and on the special side they retain Aura Sphere and Focus Miss- sorry, Blast- but nothing else the Type offers really sticks out as all that interesting save for individual Fighting-Types that do great in the various Smogon tiers. In OU Fighting is solid off of Great Tusk and Zamazenta alone, alongside that crucial Dark resist, but like I said, it’s the depth and the lack of utility I have a problem with.
 
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Idk about you, but I don't play the stock market, I play video games. If we're being honest here, all of that gotta go out of the window and we gotta look at things from a game perspective.

i dont care for bdsp and never played it and i find it a Worthless Product in the franchise, but my point isnt that the games are good, its that we just cant take filtered bubble views on the generations as ways to define eras: bdsp Was successful whether its dogshit ass or mid or the best game ever, so it being part of any kind of era signified by death of hype seems silly to me.

as an example, i do not think many golden era disney movies are good. i find them mediocre products. doesnt meant they arent some behemoths of animation success
 
Fighting is in a unique place in Scarlet & Violet, however. At the top of the tier lists for Singles you’ve got Great Tusk, Zamazenta after it became legal, and Sneasler before its ban, and you also have Koraidon for Ubers and restricted VGC metagames. Behind this admittedly really strong top four, though, there’s not as much depth as some other Types, and even Bug-Types have good debuffing options and U-Turn, to name a few tools. Close Combat is still an incredible move but Fairies exist now and when it became a TM in Sword & Shield a lot more non-Fighting Pokémon got this move making it less unique to the Pokémon that did have it naturally. They retain Bulk Up (or Victory Dance, for Hisuian Lilligant) and also have STAB on the popular move Body Press, and on the special side they retain Aura Sphere and Focus Miss- sorry, Blast- but nothing else the Type offers really sticks out as all that interesting save for individual Fighting-Types that do great in the various Smogon tiers. In OU Fighting is solid off of Great Tusk and Zamazenta alone, alongside that crucial Dark resist, but like I said, it’s the depth and the lack of utility I have a problem with.
Lmao how in the world did I forget about Iron Valiant :row:
 
i dont care for bdsp and never played it and i find it a Worthless Product in the franchise, but my point isnt that the games are good, its that we just cant take filtered bubble views on the generations as ways to define eras: bdsp Was successful whether its dogshit ass or mid or the best game ever, so it being part of any kind of era signified by death of hype seems silly to me.

as an example, i do not think many golden era disney movies are good. i find them mediocre products. doesnt meant they arent some behemoths of animation success
Yeah, we agree on it.

And like we were saying it's all subjective, for example, that post you were replying to completely different from the usual take on what was the peak of the franchise.
 
i dont care for bdsp and never played it and i find it a Worthless Product in the franchise, but my point isnt that the games are good, its that we just cant take filtered bubble views on the generations as ways to define eras: bdsp Was successful whether its dogshit ass or mid or the best game ever, so it being part of any kind of era signified by death of hype seems silly to me.

as an example, i do not think many golden era disney movies are good. i find them mediocre products. doesnt meant they arent some behemoths of animation success
Yeah, we agree on it.

And like we were saying it's all subjective, for example, that post you were replying to completely different from the usual take on what was the peak of the franchise.
I feel like there isn’t one definitive “peak” or “lowest point” for this franchise since those terms are already very loosely opinionated. A lot of factors go into this- when the person grew up playing tends to be a major factor, and every game is going to offer different things that may or may not appeal to certain people. With a multimedia franchise this large and significant there’s just too many variables to keep in mind and too many different sides of a very large overall playerbase.

In fact, I’d argue there’s no one best or worst game on the Switch, either. If we’re just looking at Pokémon’s mainline offerings since 2018, it almost seems like the lineup is specifically designed for each game(s) to cater towards a different group of people: You want a more traditional style of remake? You’ve got Let’s Go and BDSP to pick from, even if they could have done more with both of those. You want something more unique than what we’ve gotten before? Legends is the game for you. New to the franchise? As much as I hate these games, Sword & Shield are pretty beginner friendly if you’re looking to play something that’s an introduction to what later games would become. Prefer open world games? Scarlet & Violet have more emphasis on story than a handful of other games and they run better on Switch 2 also. Things like this.

It leads to a situation where you’re unlikely to like every Switch game, but the odds are fairly high that you’ll enjoy at least one of them, as opposed to “I either love every game on this handheld or hate every game on this handheld with no in between”. Older fans tend to gravitate heavily towards an entire stsyem’s lineup if their top favorite was from that system, and the Switch games seem to have taken a different approach.
 
Older fans tend to gravitate heavily towards an entire stsyem’s lineup if their top favorite was from that system, and the Switch games seem to have taken a different approach.
Because the Switch games are wildly different from one another.

Gens 1-4 were pretty much constantly developing; they were building a foundation, so games on the same console were pretty similar.

Playing HGSS isn't as different from Platinum as SV was to BDSP. It makes sense that people view systems as the collective, especially since gens didn't really share consoles until the DS.
 
Why hasn't X-Scissor been buffed yet? Give it 90BP for crying out loud.

A couple of generations ago, I would have agreed, but I think it's gotten enough of a buff becoming a slicing move. Bug coverage is pretty niche so it'll never be a very common move, but it's Kleavor's best STAB option when paired with Sharpness, and if anything with Sharpness in the future wants to run a Bug move, it'll probably be X-Scissor.
 
Why hasn't X-Scissor been buffed yet? Give it 90BP for crying out loud.
I propose a different change- make this the Bug-Type version of Slash, Night Slash, and Leaf Blade (the Gen 3 version). I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten this move’s properties wrong, thinking it’s like those moves but it’s actually more like Seed Bomb if anything.
 
Seaking is right, and also Bug-types have a lot of other strong physical options in Lunge, Leech Life, and Megahorn, and U-turn and First Impression to think a bit outside the box
And this is exactly why X-Scissor should get something.

Realistically, it's not competing with anything as it's essentially a coverage move now. Kleavor is one of the few mons that actually want to run it instead of Lunge because its ability enables it to stand out. It is the generic Bug-type coverage option, so it should at least have a trait to warrant using it since Bug is also one of the worst offensive types of the game.

No, U-Turn doesn't count for that purpose lol. And that should be nerfed either way.
 
maybe if u turn was like 20 bp or some shit theyd be more willing to give bug offensive buffs. its not like itd even be a nerf to bugs because the bug type is on average the worst user of the move anyway. the best ones are random shit like incin and urshufi that dont deserve to hit with a 70 bp move while switching out
 
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