Unpopular opinions

[Suspicious Derivative]

I wanted to give my opinion regarding the current discussion on remakes, I have partly done it before but I guess it is time to do it once more.

I think that's what people want in a remake: The best parts of the game, with the flaws patched out.

I agree with this. And I think this is something all Pokemon remakes (so far) have failed with in various ways.

FR/LG first. I actually like them a lot. They fixed many issues with the originals. They improved upon the lackluster Kanto post-game by adding the Sevii Islands, and the VS. Seeker made training easier. A stronger Elite Four upon rematches was great too, and FR/LG were the first games in the series to do that. They also modernized everything in terms of game physics, and they didn't have any of the glitches or bad mechanics that plauged R/B/Y. The only real complaints I have about FR/LG is that they didn't have a Regional dex expansion or any real battle facilities. I also wish they had improved the main story and the rival. But, as I have realized after playing Gen 7, story isn't that important to me in Pokemon games so I'm willing to look past that (maybe that's actually an unpopular opinion?). Simply put, I think FR/LG were good Pokemon remakes because they improved upon core issues with the originals, something which is very important and it is what every remake should do.

HG/SS were pretty much the opposite. They had a great opportunity to fix everything that was wrong with G/S/C, and they did next to nothing. I don't feel like writing yet another long post about my issues with HG/SS like I have done before, so I'll just list the biggest problems: level curve, lack of training spots, Pokemon availability/distribution/placement, battle facilities, post-game and content in general. Basically most of the important things in the games (for me at least). There's also the story and characters but again, it doesn't matter that much to me. I didn't care much for the majority of the new things HG/SS introduced either, the only one I really liked was the Dowsing Machine.

OR/AS are different. They were similar to FR/LG as they improved in some areas, but not everywhere. Massive story improvements, better gameplay overall, stronger post-game, epic training spots... but no regional dex expansion and no new battle facilities. But to be fair, those are areas I think all remakes failed at, so I don't blame them more than the others in those aspects. I really liked OR/AS on the whole and I think their gameplay is among the best in the series.

I guess what I really want to say is that there has yet to be a perfect Pokemon remake. In my opinion, at least. The three we have gotten so far have succeeded in some areas but failed in others. If there is a future remake that does everything right - keeping what was good about the originals, improving in all areas where it is needed - it would be fantastic. It could become the best game in the series. I'm not expecting it to happen though, especially not this year.

And I want to end this with an unpopular(?) opinion of my own: Remakes are my least favorite kind of Pokemon game, simply because they fail to fix all issues with the originals. I prefer first pairs, third versions, alternate versions and sequels over remakes. Though I still really liked FR/LG and OR/AS, don't get me wrong. But I generally prefer other types of Pokemon games instead of remakes.

 

[Wizard]

HGSS does have a battle facility (the same as Platinum) though, and they also added Gym leaders rematches that I remember were a good source of experience. Another form of postgame content was the block-based Safari Zone (I doubt anyone would complete that before endgame) , not to mention the pokewalker areas, pokéathlon and shiny leafs hunt. Of course I am biased because SoulSilver is the pokemon game I've spent the most time with, I even started competitive battling there

 

[Kurona]

I think postgame might be how I define HGSS' strongest suit, actually. I agree with Suspicious Derivative on the clear flaws pervading the main game -- the retaining of GSC's terrible level curve with no good areas to train or trainers to rematch, while Pokémon distribution is... let's say odd. GSC were extremely weird entries to the series, and unfortunately the worst parts of that weirdness are still very very present and almost exacerbated by Gen 4's flawed engine.

But in terms of postgame this might just be one of the biggest and best Pokémon games to date. So many things keep opening up with every thing you do and there's so many rematches and so many Pokémon to find and get gifted and so many daily events and it just gets almost ludicrous with how much you can do. I think that might be where my best memories lie with it -- these were games that just felt so alive and buzzing even after you technically completed them.

 

[jordanthejq12]

You know, I would actually want to see a proper Kanto re-remake. The franchise has advanced so far in so many ways even since FRLG, not only mechanically but also in terms of story. I was low-key hoping that such an effort would be the second Gen VII game--as the main series prepares to leave the handheld-exclusive world, what better way to signal the start of a new era than by returning to where it all began?

 

[hypno28]

I guess in becoming more complicated and raising the supposed stakes the story has "advanced."

 

[PokePoindexter]

If we're going to get a Kanto re-remake, I'd like the following changes to happen:

*The making of all later-generation evolutions and pre-evolutions to Gen 1 Pokemon available during the main adventure. Yes, I know I just finished mocking people who hated BW for the lack of previous-gen Pokemon in those games, but the difference here is that that roster didn't have any cross-generation evolution lines like Gen 1 does. Am I the only one who thinks it's stupid for a max-happiness Golbat or Chansey to stop evolving without pressing B just because the thing it would evolve into wouldn't be registered in your Pokedex right away? Especially now that Wonder Trade is a thing? I think adding later-gen evos and pre-evos of Gen 1 Pokemon would help to make the experience a little more interesting than it would be otherwise, since we're seeing more than just the same lock-step collection of Pokemon we've already seen twice already. Erika could use a Tangrowth, Koga and/or Agatha a Crobat, Giovanni a Rhyperior, Lance a Kingdra, etc. And it's not like Game Freak would have to get rid of anything from Gen 1's roster to make room for them.

*Perhaps another unpopular opinion of mine, but I despise the Kanto Safari Zone. Maybe it's just me, but having to navigate a gigantic labyrinth with a step limit to get two HMs is not what I call a good time. And, of course, the fact that you can't actually battle the Pokemon you want to catch doesn't improve my opinion of it any more. My solutions would either be to just go the ORAS route by allowing for normal battles and no admission, or at minimum the HGSS route by axing the step limit, since you have to visit the Kanto Safari Zone at least once to get the HMs for Surf and Strength. Of course, if they reintroduce the PokeRide feature from Gen 7 and we don't have to go to the SZ to get the PokeRide equivalents, then you can forget everything I typed in this paragraph.

I'd mention something about wanting new areas to explore or more postgame content, but the Sevii Islands essentially covered those areas in FRLG, so I want those to come back as well (and maybe be further expanded upon).

 

[Kurona]

If we're going to get a Kanto re-remake, I'd like the following changes to happen:

*The making of all later-generation evolutions and pre-evolutions to Gen 1 Pokemon available during the main adventure. Yes, I know I just finished mocking people who hated BW for the lack of previous-gen Pokemon in those games, but the difference here is that that roster didn't have any cross-generation evolution lines like Gen 1 does. Am I the only one who thinks it's stupid for a max-happiness Golbat or Chansey to stop evolving without pressing B just because the thing it would evolve into wouldn't be registered in your Pokedex right away? Especially now that Wonder Trade is a thing? I think adding later-gen evos and pre-evos of Gen 1 Pokemon would help to make the experience a little more interesting than it would be otherwise, since we're seeing more than just the same lock-step collection of Pokemon we've already seen twice already. Erika could use a Tangrowth, Koga and/or Agatha a Crobat, Giovanni a Rhyperior, Lance a Kingdra, etc. And it's not like Game Freak would have to get rid of anything from Gen 1's roster to make room for them.

*Perhaps another unpopular opinion of mine, but I despise the Kanto Safari Zone. Maybe it's just me, but having to navigate a gigantic labyrinth with a step limit to get two HMs is not what I call a good time. And, of course, the fact that you can't actually battle the Pokemon you want to catch doesn't improve my opinion of it any more. My solutions would either be to just go the ORAS route by allowing for normal battles and no admission, or at minimum the HGSS route by axing the step limit, since you have to visit the Kanto Safari Zone at least once to get the HMs for Surf and Strength. Of course, if they reintroduce the PokeRide feature from Gen 7 and we don't have to go to the SZ to get the PokeRide equivalents, then you can forget everything I typed in this paragraph.

I'd mention something about wanting new areas to explore or more postgame content, but the Sevii Islands essentially covered those areas in FRLG, so I want those to come back as well (and maybe be further expanded upon).

These are not unpopular, believe me. I've been stanning the hell out of FRLG but yes, absolutely, no access to Gen 2 evolutions is really dumb. And I've never liked the Safari Zone.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

These are not unpopular, believe me. I've been stanning the hell out of FRLG but yes, absolutely, no access to Gen 2 evolutions is really dumb. And I've never liked the Safari Zone.

The safari zone in hg/ss was brilliant, although the block mechanic could've been better.

 

[Kurona]

The safari zone in hg/ss was brilliant, although the block mechanic could've been better.

It's an interesting idea, but at the end of the day the RNG kills any interest in the Safari Zone for me.

 

[Altissimo]

can we do speculatives in this thread, if so what would dppt remakes need to be Really Good remakes in yalls opinion

(if we're not allowed to do speculatives then ignore me)

 

[earl]

can we do speculatives in this thread, if so what would dppt remakes need to be Really Good remakes in yalls opinion

(if we're not allowed to do speculatives then ignore me)

Just HD Platinum with a beefier endgame tbh

 

[Detective Barricade]

can we do speculatives in this thread, if so what would dppt remakes need to be Really Good remakes in yalls opinion

(if we're not allowed to do speculatives then ignore me)

They don't need to be "really good" to sell like hotcakes and Game Freak knows it. All they have to do is make them, toss in the gimmick of the generation, and maybe allow access to the Legendary Pokemon unobtainable in the previous games of the generation.

 

[Kurona]

can we do speculatives in this thread, if so what would dppt remakes need to be Really Good remakes in yalls opinion

(if we're not allowed to do speculatives then ignore me)

Pretty sure that's just wishlisting.

 

[cityscapes]

The safari zone in hg/ss was brilliant, although the block mechanic could've been better.

no it sucked

i get that the stuff when you first get it is cool. six areas with different types of mons in them. you can switch them around to get uncommon stuff like sandshrew.

oh but if you want to get rare stuff like bagon or gible? well GET READY TO WAIT MONTHS BEFORE THEY EVEN APPEAR. who thought this was balanced difficulty? i mean sure, you could've made them rare appearances. you could've made them harder to capture. you could've restricted them to postgame. but no, how about we do this instead, which is more infuriating than all of those put together, but for the complete wrong reasons.

it's just really bad design.

 

[Demoness]

I mean, the Safari Zone is shit anyway. Just don't think that an area that just takes away any real method of influencing your chances of catching stuff when thats been a basic fucking mechanic is good design in the slightest. There's enough RNG in Pokemon: we don't need to suddenly just shove even more in

 

[pokemon4eva]

Yeah, I dislked Safari Zones since RBY. Not only because of the EXTREMELY luck dependant (even for this series) capture mechanics, it also doesn't make any sense. So I am not allowed to battle these Pokémon because they want to preserve the species, but I am allowed to throw rocks at it? Huh...

 

[stage7_4]

Unpopular criticism on popular criticisms, but I feel the complaint that the Johto games had bad exp curves is a little over blown.

While it's true that the game seems to hold trainer levels in the 20's and 30's a lot longer than others in the series, and yes some of the Johto routes are pretty short and devoid of battles. But my counterpoint is, what's wrong with keeping your levels low?

Borrowing from the Paper Mario style of RPG systems, having big numbers doesn't really make your game big or even fun, so there's not necessarily any direct benefit from leveling up just to watch some numbers climb up. Dealing 100 damage to a 1000 HP monster is functionally the same as doing 1 damage to a 10 HP monster after all.

Paper Mario style

6 damage?! Slow down there turbo.

So there's only three negatives in a pokemon game that hogs exp.

The first being if content is being locked away from the player at higher levels. This would be evolutions or moves or such, stuff that changes the gameplay more than statistically differences. It's a complaint I've seen pointed at Gen 5 for example, since a significant portion of pokemon there go through their first evolutions not until their 40's or higher. But for the majority of the Kanto/Johto pokedex, most pokemon reach their maturity around their 30's (or through alternative means) well within the exp curve, so it's not like you're fighting to get your starter to evolve at any point. As for movesets, the TM/HM system generally supports your need for firepower at any stage of the game (and this only considering easily reusable TM's like Fire Blast and Surf), so you are never really desperate for a move locked away in your pokemon's 40s and 50s. So is there really anything wrong with not trying to rush through your 20's? I mean, I'm certainly going to miss them next year

The second is if the challenge is demanding a level higher than what can be easily obtained without grinding. And overall, this comes up less than you think in Johto. They might be stingy on exp, but they only have 3 instances where the game demands stats much higher than you can achieve without grinding. So for 90% of the game, you might be stuck in the kiddie pool but so is everybody else.

Now, admittedly those three instances are pretty sour sticking points and I can't deny that. The first is right before you face the Elite Four for the first time. Your last fight with your rival had at best a level 40 pokemon, but now you're expected to face off up to Lance's level 50 Dragonite. And with only some level 33ish mons to help grind you there. It's a full progress stop, it ain't fun, and I won't defend it. It frankly sucks.

...but that's still only one instance near the end of the game. As for the other high level demands, it's either facing Red on Mt. Silver (which I'd consider a post game superboss and not really within the bounds of typical play) or raising pokemon for the Battle Frontier (requiring level 50 mons at least). So again, for 90% of the game it's a smooth ride and you aren't really made to stop and grind to "git gud" ... up until right before the Elite Four.

The last point is another thing I can't really dispute, and that's low exp amounts discourage experimentation, a problem that plagued most of this series up until the Gen 6 Exp Share changes (which might have over-corrected but still). The Johto exp curve is fine if you pick 6 decent pokemon and stick with them until the end (or better yet, 3 powerhouses and 3 untrained HM-slaves). But if you're a new player picking and switching out your team for every shiny new monster that appears, you're going to have a bad time keeping up without grinding. My only condolence is that this issue is bigger than the Johto games, so it's a bit unfair to hold it against just them. That and if you are on this forum reading this, you're already beyond this ever being a problem to you ever.

This isn't to say the Johto games aren't flawed, and it isn't to say that the exp curve for Johto is completely fine either or that criticism isn't warranted. It's more I see arguments throwing it around like this gigantic dealbreaker (which while subjective) isn't all that bad.

 

[ZettaiRyouiki]

The above isn't really wrong, but the problem is Gen 2 wasn't made with that low curve in mind. Look at the levels you get new attacks and evolve. Clearly they aren't done for a smaller level curve than usual.

 

[Siggu]

The problem with Gen II's curve is not exactly the levels, but the level progression.

Say, the way opposing trainers' levels seem to not change for a significant portion of the game, between Ecruteak and Mahogany (outside of gyms, you will be fighting level 15-20 Pokemon for a ridiculous amount of time), and of course the entirety of Kanto. Outside of those two portions (which are unfortunately most of the game) the level pacing is good.

 

[Zowayix]

"Outside of the majority of the game, it's good" isn't exactly a dazzling endorsement though....

 

[stage7_4]

The above isn't really wrong, but the problem is Gen 2 wasn't made with that low curve in mind. Look at the levels you get new attacks and evolve. Clearly they aren't done for a smaller level curve than usual.

You sure about that?

Totodile evolves at the low low level of 30 for Feraligatr, Meganium at 32, leaving Typhlosion at the highest (but still reasonable) 36.

As for other popular Johto mons, Ampharos is at level 30, Quagsire at level 20, Xatu at 25, Gyarados at 20, Lanturn at 27, and a large portion of 'mons evolved independent of levels (the Eevee-lutions, Crobat, Golem, Gengar, Alakazam, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Starmie, Arcanine, to name a few).

So by the way I see it, you can have a fully evolved team by level 30 easy, the only casualty is those holding out on their fire starter (which 36 is high for the curve, but not unreasonable). That's much lower than most games that make you wait until the mid 30s to accomplish the same thing.

So which 'mons are you talking about? Dratini and Lavitar?

As for movesets, HG/SS fixed most of that for anyone not named Meganium

sorry chikorita

Why won't Gamefreak love you?

The following mons get end-game capable moves before 40:

Quagsire gets the coveted earthquake at 36, with mud shot and mud bomb keeping you strong until then (surf for a water move).

Quilava gets lava plume at 35, just in time to evolve.

Croconaw gets Ice Fang, Thrash, and Crunch before even evolving.

Ampharos gets Discharge at 34.

Golem gets Earthquake at 33

Scyther gets a ton of toys to abuse technician with (Wing Attack at 21, Pursuit at 9, Quick Attack from the start).

Gyarados gets Ice Fang at 32, Aqua Tail at 35.

Lapras gets Ice Beam at 32.

Vulpix gets Flamethrower at 24 (sheesh, that's low!)

I guess that's what bothers me about the "Johto games have bad exp curve" complaints, as when you really analyze it your case starts to erode. So exactly what 'mon are you using that either won't evolve yet or desperately needs an attack?

 

[ZettaiRyouiki]

Alright, was probably thinking of something else. Guess newer generations confused me. Sorry.

 

[Altissimo]

The way I usually play the game Quilava doesn't evolve until just before Clair. That seems way too late to me.

 

[stage7_4]

The way I usually play the game Quilava doesn't evolve until just before Clair. That seems way too late to me.

Mine usually evolves right before the Goldenrod Radio Takeover, but that doesn't invalidate your criticism.

My point wasn't so much that the Johto games are flawless, but just to re-anaylze it's most common criticism. It's not perfect (the gap between you and the Elite Four is a chore), but it's not this persistent problem you're always facing.

For one thing I can't defend, Johto does have the most unbalanced starter trio in that Chikorita is basically a mini-challenge run given it provides no advantages in any boss fight until post-game Kanto. It's best move is arguably Toxic, and it doesn't even naturally get Sleep Powder or Leech Seed to properly stall (as it's tanky stats would suggest).

 

[AstralBlade]

Red sucks. Look, I understand that being the “Pokemon Master” and “The Only AI Trainer with the highest level Pokemon not in the Battle Frontier” is cool and all but i can beat him 30 levels under him. He’s not even that hard. Just use your type advantage, and the entire battle is clean and wiped like that. The level curve for him in the originals is just plain stupid, but isn’t gen 2 stupid as well?