That's not what I've been hearing about the Legends battle system. I've heard lots about how priority/agile spam can make slower mons unable to do anything and how the damage is so high you need to trade KOs and revenge kill everything you don't already have a speed advantage on, but I haven't heard anything about defensive play actually being useful (besides that you might as well take higher defensive stats because the calculation basically doesn't care about the attack stats)
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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TLDR defensive play becomes relevant if you're trying to catch Alphas and do the postgame X vs 1 battles, because due to the way damage is calculated, a Weedle has same damage potential of an Alakazam at high enough level, meanwhile bulk reduces the damage a ton more than it would normally, and with AI actually not being dumb in this game, you want your pokemon to actually be able to not die in 1 hit.
This is why the Ingo fight with Alphas is hell, his Pokemon are both stupid bulky and stupid fast. I had to be around 8 levels higher, drowzy his Basculegion and use a Strong Style Bitter Malice (basically better Hex) to barely one shot it.
Also, since now we are talking about Legends Arceus, I wanna talk about how important that it was a main entry sold as one single game, and not two or three separate versions. I've been thinking about it since I completed L:A by myself and when I rewatched the Victini movie, which bafflingly was released in 2 versions like the main games...
As a single version, the Pokemon experience hasn't changed so much, and that selling separate versions is an outdated practice that just serves as a monetary hassle. It was cool when it incentivized socializing to catch them all, but in this more technological/digital era which keeping in touch is easier than ever, it's really not that relevant anymore and it should have stopped a long time ago. So you can imagine my disappointment when Gen 9 was announced with 2 separate versions...
This trend towards one-shotting might have something to do with how slow battles in Pokemon are in general. Every single little effect happens back to back, even though a lot of it could happen simultaneously, or not at all. Do you really need to see a textbox saying your attack was super effective with every single super effective move you ever do, even though it tells you that it will be super effective when selecting the move? Do you really need to see a textbox saying that your Pokemon got buffeted by hail every turn? Even the newer games use this archaic programming, and because every gen introduces new moves and abilities, this problem gets worse with every gen. The generational gimmicks really don't help either. I try to avoid z-moves as much as possible, for example, just because I don't want to watch that long-ass animation every single time. By encouraging this one-shot fest, GF can make sure that battles don't take forever, so they can mask their badly programmed battle system.
Monster Sanctuary has exclusively 3v3 battles, but they go much faster because things like damage multipliers and any statuses inflicted are conveyed through icons instead of text. Or for a game more similar to Pokémon, Temtem also conveys damage multipliers using icons that appear when the target is hit.
it also doesn’t help that the newer games like SwSh and BDSP are so unbalanced due to the nature of the mandatory EXP share and EXP gain in general, creating for a very one-sided and frankly boring battling experience. i actually enjoyed BDSP but my god getting through the game was so boring and i essentially button-mashed the whole main plot because there was no real challenge to it other than MAYBE the champion battle. the framework for battling is so notable for pokemon but jesus christ they need to do some serious overhauling of some of the qualities you were referring to plus a serious re-evaluation of the entire battling engine
Very late reply, but I saw this and I wanted to say a few things here.
First of all, I am happy to hear that you have played US/UM, and that you like them! However, I am very disappointed by the way you were always talking about about these games in the past. Whenever you ranted about US/UM, I always assumed you were basing it on your own experiences after having played them. I don't know if you ever said that you hadn't played the games, and if you did, I missed it completely. Now that I have learned that you said all of those things in the past without having played the games, I find it very disappointing. In comparison, whenever I rant about Pokémon games (notably HG/SS), it is always based on my own experiences from having played the games in question. And if I talk about games I haven't played (such as LGP/E), I always make sure to include that somewhere just to let everyone know that what I am talking about regarding the games is not based on my own experiences from having played them.
But I am still happy in the end. You learned a lesson, admitted that you were wrong, and you like US/UM! Yay!
i too am proud of your character development, young dramps
Ema Skye
Work!
A rave on Pokemon selection in Johto, and the level curve.
Let's look at where we get them in Gold/Silver:
I want to talk about the midgame because that's where the level curve arguments come from. GSC, in my opinion, really lets you take the training wheels off midgame, in contrast to newer games that have a defined path they want you to go in. Its well known that you can do Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce's gyms in whatever order you want (which is why they all are around the same level, because if they weren't, there would still be a defined pathway they want you to take. And once you defeat the seventh gym, you do get the request to go to the Radio Tower, but you can totally skip it and go explore Ice Path and Route 45 first (unlike in HGSS, the Slowpoke Tail guy only blocks you until you have the seventh badge). All of this has to be in consideration when designing the wild Pokemon because GameFreak left you the option to get them early. If you want to get a Girafarig before Morty (great choice btw!), go for it. If you need that Swinub to do the Rocket Tower to get some extra levels before Clair, go for it. That's why grinding for Clair is a pain, because they gave you the option to get here at the early 30s.
"But why not just do a more linear game and boost the level curve?"
Why is that worth limiting player choice and exploration. This is a game that wanted to take some risks and it paid off, big time. There really isn't a mainline game that gives you this much freedom. You do have the Celedon/Fuschia/Saffron/Cinnabar gyms being relatively up to player choice (though Fuschia must be cleared before Cinnabar due to Surf. There is also a well defined level curve that encourages doing Celedon first and Cinnabar last). Otherwise there really isn't much room in other games that GameFreak lets you explore. In Gen 2, this flatter level curve is a conscious design choice to really encourage player exploration.
"But why are six of the families Kanto-only?"
Again, this encourages exploration. It makes these Pokemon feel special. As there isn't a Johto dex (its a renumbered National Dex), these are going to be some holes that need to be filled up in your PokeDex. Given the completely non-linear nature of Kanto, you do have some fun hunting for the last few new mons as you complete the dex.
Because that's how you find the new mons, silly.
Gen 2 does an amazing job at showcasing its new castmates through its new gameplay mechanics. We've got:
In closing of this probably quite unpopular opinion, I think GSC's level curve and Pokemon availability really show off the game's intended emphasis on exploration, and its a level of exploration that I still don't think has been passed by another Pokemon game.
Let's look at where we get them in Gold/Silver:
- Before Falkner: Starters, Sentret, Hoothoot, Ledyba, Spinarak, Dunsparce (1% encounter)
- Before Bugsy: Togepi, Mareep, Hoppip, Wooper, Unown, Qwilfish (needs a swarm to get pre-Kanto)
- Before Whitney: Pineco, Heracross, Aipom (headbutt trees), Yanma (1% encounter or swarm), Sunkern, Stantler
- Before Morty: Sudowoodo, Shuckle, Marill (1% encounter), Girafarig, Miltank, Chinchou, Corsola (both Good Rod), Snubbull (1% encounter)
- Before Radio Tower: Natu, Smeargle, Mantine, Remoraid (need swarm to get pre-Kanto), Swinub, Delibird, Gligar, Teddiursa, Phanpy, Skarmory, Wobbuffet [Remoraid and onward require 7 badges first, but you can get them before you do the Radio Tower]
- Kanto-only: Houndour, Slugma, Murkrow
- Silver Cave only: Sneasel, Misdreavus, Larvitar
- Before Falkner: Starters, Sentret, Hoothoot, Ledyba, Spinarak, Hoppip, Phanpy, Teddiursa
- Before Bugsy: Togepi, Wooper, Unown, Qwilfish (still need a swarm pre-Kanto) [Mareep isn't in Crystal]
- Before Whitney: Pineco, Heracross, Aipom, Yanma, Sunkern, Stantler, Snubbull (no longer Swarm)
- Before Morty: Sudowoodo, Shuckle, Marill (no longer Swarm), Miltank, Chinchou, Corsola [Girafarig isn't in Crystal]
- Before Radio Tower: Natu, Smeargle, Mantine, Swinub, Delibird, Gligar, Skarmory, Wobbuffet, Sneasel [Remoraid isn't in Crystal]
- Kanto-only: Houndour, Slugma, Murkrow
- Silver Cave: Misdreavus, Larvitar
I want to talk about the midgame because that's where the level curve arguments come from. GSC, in my opinion, really lets you take the training wheels off midgame, in contrast to newer games that have a defined path they want you to go in. Its well known that you can do Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce's gyms in whatever order you want (which is why they all are around the same level, because if they weren't, there would still be a defined pathway they want you to take. And once you defeat the seventh gym, you do get the request to go to the Radio Tower, but you can totally skip it and go explore Ice Path and Route 45 first (unlike in HGSS, the Slowpoke Tail guy only blocks you until you have the seventh badge). All of this has to be in consideration when designing the wild Pokemon because GameFreak left you the option to get them early. If you want to get a Girafarig before Morty (great choice btw!), go for it. If you need that Swinub to do the Rocket Tower to get some extra levels before Clair, go for it. That's why grinding for Clair is a pain, because they gave you the option to get here at the early 30s.
"But why not just do a more linear game and boost the level curve?"
Why is that worth limiting player choice and exploration. This is a game that wanted to take some risks and it paid off, big time. There really isn't a mainline game that gives you this much freedom. You do have the Celedon/Fuschia/Saffron/Cinnabar gyms being relatively up to player choice (though Fuschia must be cleared before Cinnabar due to Surf. There is also a well defined level curve that encourages doing Celedon first and Cinnabar last). Otherwise there really isn't much room in other games that GameFreak lets you explore. In Gen 2, this flatter level curve is a conscious design choice to really encourage player exploration.
"But why are six of the families Kanto-only?"
Again, this encourages exploration. It makes these Pokemon feel special. As there isn't a Johto dex (its a renumbered National Dex), these are going to be some holes that need to be filled up in your PokeDex. Given the completely non-linear nature of Kanto, you do have some fun hunting for the last few new mons as you complete the dex.
- The Rocket Executive's Houndour/Houndoom has made people want it, and now you finally can (at Night, because it's Gen 2).
- Murkrow helps you out in the Mahogany hideout and now you can get one.
- Sneasel has story significance with the Rival stealing one from Cianwood. Being able to get one is cool.
- Larvitar is the pseudo so its location hidden in the final dungeon is almost like a prize for getting this far.
- Of note, these four are also all Dark types and, I think, their rarity made Dark type feel special. You know they exist from the Kimono Girls and Karen, and being able to finally put your hands on one feels so good.
- Misdreavus is the only new Ghost, and given that its identity has always been 'bad Gengar', putting it in the final dungeon makes it also seem special. Otherwise, it would probably just get forgotten about.
- Slugma isn't super special on its own, especially when you get Growlithe/Vulpix/Magmar relatively close together, and Ponyta before the Elite 4, but I think Slugma's rarity probably made people more willing to try it out.
Because that's how you find the new mons, silly.
Gen 2 does an amazing job at showcasing its new castmates through its new gameplay mechanics. We've got:
- Swarm mons: Marill, Dunsparce, Qwilfish, Remoraid, Snubbull and Yanma. Using the PokeGear, they have given you a way to make rarer mons easier to find, and, in the case of Qwilfish and Remoraid, allowed them to be caught earlier than intended.
- Headbutt Trees: Heracross, Aipom and Pineco are only found in these trees.
- Rock Smash: Just Shuckle for this one.
- Time of Day: this one is HUGE!
- Morning only: Ledyba
- Day only: Sunkern
- Night only: Hoothoot, Spinarak, Misdreavus, Wobbuffet, Murkrow, Houndour
- Not Day: Wooper
- Not Night: Corsola, Sentret, Hoppip
- Pichu, Cleffa, Smoochum, Igglybuff, Elekid, Magby and Tyrogue are all locked to the breeding mechanic. Togepi shows off this mechanic early by showing you 'hey, this is something you can do!'
- Politoed, Slowking, Steelix, Porygon2, Kingdra and Scizor are all trade with items. Held items were new this gen, and it encouraged people to play around with them.
- In the case of Poliwhirl, Slowpoke and Seadra, they can be found holding these items and so you know they have a connection.
- Onix and Scyther both evolve with the Metal Coat and, given that you fight both of them before getting the item, you have an idea of what its for.
- Crobat, Blissey, Umbreon and Espeon show off the expanded happiness mechanic from Yellow.
- Bellossom shows off a new item, yay!
We know from the beta that this connection was going to be further emphasized. The new Pokemon were intentionally very complimentary towards the Kanto dex.
We know from the beta that babies were going to be further expanded on, really selling this as a mechanic. There were plans for babies for: Tangela, Vulpix, Goldeen, Paras, Doduo, Meowth, Ponyta, Growlithe, Grimer and Mr. Mime (while still keeping all of the current baby mons). This was supposed to be a huge mechanic.
All of the new evolutions were here as well, with new ones for: Tangela, Ditto, Lickitung, Farfetch'd and Pinsir, a split evolution Weepinbell, and proto-Leafeon. This adds up to 34 Pokemon (the real and the cut ones), or about a third of what was planned. This shows that Gen 2's identity in Pokemon design was always about complementing the existing Pokemon, rather than replacing them. Hell, we didn't even get Sentret as our regional rodent in the beta, nor Tyranitar as a psuedo (Dragonite keeps the spotlight). In contrary, Pidgey/Hoothoot were always complementary (time of day), which carried to the final build.
We know from the beta that babies were going to be further expanded on, really selling this as a mechanic. There were plans for babies for: Tangela, Vulpix, Goldeen, Paras, Doduo, Meowth, Ponyta, Growlithe, Grimer and Mr. Mime (while still keeping all of the current baby mons). This was supposed to be a huge mechanic.
All of the new evolutions were here as well, with new ones for: Tangela, Ditto, Lickitung, Farfetch'd and Pinsir, a split evolution Weepinbell, and proto-Leafeon. This adds up to 34 Pokemon (the real and the cut ones), or about a third of what was planned. This shows that Gen 2's identity in Pokemon design was always about complementing the existing Pokemon, rather than replacing them. Hell, we didn't even get Sentret as our regional rodent in the beta, nor Tyranitar as a psuedo (Dragonite keeps the spotlight). In contrary, Pidgey/Hoothoot were always complementary (time of day), which carried to the final build.
In closing of this probably quite unpopular opinion, I think GSC's level curve and Pokemon availability really show off the game's intended emphasis on exploration, and its a level of exploration that I still don't think has been passed by another Pokemon game.
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I hate Sinnoh in every way possible barring Riolu and Lucario
That's it, that's all you get
That's it, that's all you get
While there are some other things I disagree with (especially with how much the GSC/HGSS experience suffers from non-linearity), this one in particular is one that I don't understand.
By making them rare or locked into late-game, rather than make them feel special, they'll feel like a waste because it will be very difficult to find a reason to even use them. Whatever value they could have is lost because you have very little reason to use them unless you want to do PvP (Sneasel in GS/HGSS and Larvitar are extremely bad offenders because there's only one trainer left to beat by the time you can get them, and then there are a bunch of Pokémon exclusive to routes like Route 45 where you have virtually no reason to ever set foot in).
Super-rare Pokémon (including Mythicals in the list) should not be a thing. Gameplay-wise they hold no different value to any other Pokémon, and should be treated as such.
Time-of-day-based evolutions have a problem in that they don't consider that people can only play at certain times for various reasons, such as work or school.
Yes, I am entirely posting this because I am salty I can't evolve my Budew until Sunday because that's my next day off. (Except for clock manipulation, I know, I know.)
Yes, I am entirely posting this because I am salty I can't evolve my Budew until Sunday because that's my next day off. (Except for clock manipulation, I know, I know.)
I wholeheartedly agree. I am always so annoyed when I have to change my clock to get an Umbreon or something
And clock manipulation is officially cheating, as they'd otherwise not bar you from any daily event for 48 hours.
time of day (etc) evos are a cool world-building (is that the term i'm looking for? maybe. hmm ykwim) mechanic but also they massively suck for the reasons outlined above.
i have very un-fond memories of stalling out my fight against diantha in order to level up my amaura after 7pm (or whenever) so it could evolve before entering the hall of fame
i have very un-fond memories of stalling out my fight against diantha in order to level up my amaura after 7pm (or whenever) so it could evolve before entering the hall of fame
That would be so nice if they did that. But there are some (presumably) rarely seen backgrounds that I've seen in USUM that represent the transition from day to evening to full night, with a very nice sunset background. I noticed this while spending two hours trying to get a Shiny Riolu, if you're wondering how I saw the whole thing. So it may be a flawed idea, but it has some cool parts at least
I think it makes sense if you view it from two lenses: it's a monster collecting (with monster using being secondary) game in a time before widespread internet, and it's a direct sequel to Gen 1 as opposed to its own thing.
A new Pokemon that's common is cool but nothing special. An old Pokemon that's rare is old news. A new Pokemon that's rare drums up hype on the playground and sells guide books.
Notably, this.
It's something a lot of younger people don't understand about older RPGs. (sorry I have to pull out my inner boomer)
Back 15-20 years ago (and honestly even to 10 years ago), it was super popular to sell game guides made by the same company or affiliated ones. Many old RPGs (including fan beloved ones like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, SMT, etc) had a lot of completely weird and hidden secret areas, bosses, items, even endings that would have been close to impossible to figure out on your own.
Internet wasnt really a thing, like sure there was online play and we used to hate each other on MSN messenger and IRC, but that was really the extend of it.
So guides sold a lot, as they were the best way to learn of whatever secret there was in games. And you know what, back then we actually had fun reading a guide, seeing "oh wow there's a super rare item you can get if you dance under the moon, sacrifice a gnome to the gods and count from 251 in reverse", and doing it, even if it served literally no purpose other than show off to a friend that we did it.
Ofc nowadays no designer would do this. With datamine and wikias being a thing, (almost) every game secret is discovered within a week from release, sometimes even before the game releases.
But back then... it was common, and widely accepted as fine merchandise.
Nowadays I think if they did that people would call the company "scummy" and "hiding content behind a paid guide" because that's how much people have changed over time.
Dark really got the short end of the stick in Gen 2. The only one you could get before the postgame was Umbreon, and Sneasel couldn't use either of its STABs well.
Reading through my guide for Emerald was a fun aspect of my childhood playthrough, and I also enjoyed reading through the guidebooks for Diamond/Pearl and Red/Blue Rescue Team even though I didn't own those games (I think I stole the books from my cousins' house). I feel like something that something that might be lost on people that didn't read them is that they were filled with a lot of official art and often some genuinely entertaining writing. The three books I had were written in the tone of voice of someone summarizing plot points and sharing tips with a friend. They weren't just dry lists of every secret and how to find them.
I'm surprised I haven't heard of any companies printing classic-style strategy guides for like preorder bonuses or something. It seems like it'd be a fun way to cash in on nostalgia.
I believe nowadays when they do extra goodies as preorder bonuses, usually the preferred type by buyers is steelbooks or, in case of paperwork, behind the scene content as well as concept arts.
Which is understandable to be honest as nowadays people are more interested in stuff that actually has something new/unique in it (like concept art or soundtracks), rather than informations that they can google.
I got a guide with White and spoiled the whole game for myself.
(Also, I'm reminded of that scene in Toy Story 2 where Rex says that it's extortion to have to buy a guide in order to beat a game.)
(Also, I'm reminded of that scene in Toy Story 2 where Rex says that it's extortion to have to buy a guide in order to beat a game.)
When it comes to the discussion of time-of-day based evolutions (going off the discussion on the previous page), part of it isn't necessarily the concept itself but the fact that the games have historically utilized a real-time clock system. In this regard, this is the main hindrance in that the concept of day/night cycle and events happening based on time of day isn't a bad one per se, but the fact that they have stuck to using real-time clock for the longest time has gotten in the way as time went on. This is mainly a relic of the Gen 2 days, when this was an all new feature and was really cool back then, particularly for a game in the late 90s, but in the present day using the RTC for day/night cycle is a fairly archaic and outdated idea in today's world. I would also like to note that manipulating the clock in the Game Boy/GBA days (ie Gen 2-3) was not possible, so you genuinely had to wait until day or night for certain events and whatnot, it is only on the DS and 3DS where they use the system clock to determine time in the game that it was possible.
Pokémon continuing to use real-time clock for day/night cycle and time based events for many years is frankly not only a relic of the GSC days, but it is also reflective of the tendency of the developers to prioritize design choices primarily with Japan in mind. My understanding is that real-time clock in these games is less of an issue amongst Japanese players because kids and adults alike in Japan commute to work/school via trains or straight up walk, so they have time to play their handheld systems (whether it be Game Boy, DS, 3DS, etc.) to and fro work/school and thus they can experience day time and night time events at the ideal time periods. It is very common not only for people in Japan to use trains to go to work/school, but to often play their handheld systems (ie as I said, Game Boy/DS/3DS) during the commute, so the RTC of Pokémon is less of an issue for them than it is for us folks in the west.
Fortunately, however, Legends: Arceus seems to have all but done away with the Real-Time Clock system, so it seems they are finally addressing the issue being brought up with it by using a day/night cycle that cycles by a few minutes every time a la Breath of the Wild which makes Time-of-Day based evolutions easier because you can easily manipulate the time of day not by manipulating the system clock, but by simply hanging out at camp and resting until your desired time of day, all the while the day/night cycle goes through said cycle naturally over several minute intervals as opposed to real time. It remains to be seen if Scarlet and Violet will continue to abide by this new time system, but given the direction it's taking it would be ideal for the Legends: Arceus day/night system to be the permanent system for time for Pokémon games going forward, so now we should hope that it stays in Scarlet and Violet.
Pokémon continuing to use real-time clock for day/night cycle and time based events for many years is frankly not only a relic of the GSC days, but it is also reflective of the tendency of the developers to prioritize design choices primarily with Japan in mind. My understanding is that real-time clock in these games is less of an issue amongst Japanese players because kids and adults alike in Japan commute to work/school via trains or straight up walk, so they have time to play their handheld systems (whether it be Game Boy, DS, 3DS, etc.) to and fro work/school and thus they can experience day time and night time events at the ideal time periods. It is very common not only for people in Japan to use trains to go to work/school, but to often play their handheld systems (ie as I said, Game Boy/DS/3DS) during the commute, so the RTC of Pokémon is less of an issue for them than it is for us folks in the west.
Fortunately, however, Legends: Arceus seems to have all but done away with the Real-Time Clock system, so it seems they are finally addressing the issue being brought up with it by using a day/night cycle that cycles by a few minutes every time a la Breath of the Wild which makes Time-of-Day based evolutions easier because you can easily manipulate the time of day not by manipulating the system clock, but by simply hanging out at camp and resting until your desired time of day, all the while the day/night cycle goes through said cycle naturally over several minute intervals as opposed to real time. It remains to be seen if Scarlet and Violet will continue to abide by this new time system, but given the direction it's taking it would be ideal for the Legends: Arceus day/night system to be the permanent system for time for Pokémon games going forward, so now we should hope that it stays in Scarlet and Violet.
Imagine if you actually had to look at your calendar to see when the full moon is this month and have to wait until then. That would make my brain explode