Data Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Feb @ #263) (Mar @ #696)

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Last comment on the topic: I don’t give a shit about Ambipom specifically (don’t even play/follow UU) but the point is that a single person shouldn’t be able to affect tiering for the rest of the entire site. That’s not in the spirit of using usage-based tiers, which are intended to reflect trends, not outliers. If you think a mon is underrated, get it to move up by showcasing it in high-level play to encourage others to use it (which has happened plenty of times in OU this gen), don’t shove it through the tiering process yourself.

Imagine if a mon had failed to be banned via suspect test from a non-OU tier so someone who disagreed did this to force the mon out of the tier, against the wishes of the community as reflected by the suspect vote. That is an insane idea and would pretty much render the purpose of a suspect null and void for any tier but OU. Having one person influence tiering like that goes against the whole point of having a community and councils.
 
If you think a mon is underrated, get it to move up by showcasing it in high-level play to encourage others to use it (which has happened plenty of times in OU this gen), don’t shove it through the tiering process yourself.
Which is exactly what Aim did, and the fact he had success on the high ladder motivated his fans + UU players to use it more. Had it been trash as literally half of the people on this thread claims, every player would've dropped to the low ladder instantly.

Quoting the man himself:

The series is called to the top where I encourage the use of a pokemon in an attempt to hit high ladder with it. And yes it raises usage. I told my viewers many times don’t bother with the uu room and if you support ambipom to the top, feel free to ladder with it. I started with Ambipom as a meme because its one of the mons I love most from dpp and uu apparently had a problem with it but as I kept playing I saw it did have use in UU and managed to hit #5 on the ladder with it. Even uu players like pif acknowledged the use of the pokemon. The series is designed to highlight a mon that I believe can work in the tier, which is why i’m doing MamoswineTTT, a mon whose dual coverage is only resisted by one Pokemon in Ou, Rotom-W. So yes, it is highlighting an underrated mon. I don’t honestly care if quick drops and rises stay or not. But to say the series isn’t designed to highlight mons that I believe can work in the tier, that’s wrong.

Edit: don’t think i was clear but i did want ambipom to rise to UU because I was tired of it being disrespected (underrated) but I also wanted to see if I could make it to the top with what people consider a crap mon
 
Full transparency: I'm subbed to aim, and I thought Ambipom TTT was pretty funny, even if it did disrupt the "normal" tiering process somewhat.

That being said, the concerns raised about people with influence affecting the way a democracy works is both a real problem and is not exclusive to Pokemon/Smogon. As many have said, Ambipom itself isn't the issue, it's the precedent that influential members of the community (or, god forbid, outsiders) can change the way our game plays through stealing stabilizing mons from lower tiers or affecting suspects. We're feeling the effects of it acutely because UU is a relatively small community, but the possibility of OU being affected is not impossible. Any policy regarding how new/low-level players are valued should be very calculated, though, since Smogon already has a reputation for being a bit elitist. I agree that the game should be as competitive as possible, so I'm all for figuring out a way to improve the integrity of the tiering system without gatekeeping the process. If people have ideas on how to prevent this, I'd love to see more discussion on the topic, preferably in another thread so this one can focus on the drops/rises themselves.
 
cant decide which is funnier, ambipom being #8 in usage in UU or a horde of fools getting a brain aneurism over the tiering of an unrecognised, unofficial pokemon battling format

either way...
Responses like this are completely unproductive. This is a game that we enjoy, and the community has attempted to tailor an environment to allow people to pursue that game further. You can disagree with people or the way that they are responding to a situation, but if your contribution is demeaning both the people here and the format you can fuck off.
 
Responses like this are completely unproductive. This is a game that we enjoy, and the community has attempted to tailor an environment to allow people to pursue that game further. You can disagree with people or the way that they are responding to a situation, but if your contribution is demeaning both the people here and the format you can fuck off.
XD
 
Responses like this are completely unproductive. This is a game that we enjoy, and the community has attempted to tailor an environment to allow people to pursue that game further. You can disagree with people or the way that they are responding to a situation, but if your contribution is demeaning both the people here and the format you can fuck off.
lmao triggered
 
This thread quality is so bad holy shit i cant believe i wasted mobile data to read over 15 pages of an insult contest between ambipom worshippers and very salty ambipom haters

So what if ambi is uu? I dont see nu complaining abt it or pu wanting it. And if its such a deadweight mon for u elitists shouldnt u be happy to fight a 6v5 team and have an easier time laddering?

For future mons i get the point people are making abt having the power to influence usage, but its not like hes forcibly encouraging people to use xatu to use in ou just for the sake of evil and removing it from and ruining nu/ru, hes highlighting the niche of underrated mons
 
you know i just realized this thread is 21 pages and most of it is about ambipom getting in UU and not about the other changes....clearly people hate "Bad Pokemon" getting into tiers they shouldn't be in a little to much for this to happen
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
So, this whole Ambipom fiasco has raised some concerns about community members with influence taking advantage of their influence to forcibly yank Pokemon into higher tiers they may not fit in. And you know what? This could be a valid concern. As others have mentioned, the fact a major figure like Pokeaim was able to move an NU mon (which wasn't even that good in NU to begin with) all the way up to UU does raise some questions about how these people with influence could manipulate the system.

Well, fear not everyone, for I have a solution to this issue.

Back in late 2017, I made a proposal to address another issue with the usage system: Noobtraps. (Donphan in RU, Forretress in UU, etc.) I put it on the back burners because some major tours like SPL were coming up, and it would be brash to propose a huge change to the system right before such huge events. I figure now is the time to share this proposal with everyone, for this system could also be used to address situations like Ambipom's. I want y'all to read it and tell me what you think.

Smogon’s usage-based tier system has been, for the most part, effective. It’s one of the best indicators of metagame trends, useful Pokemon, and worthwhile sets. However, in this fairly fine-tuned system, there are some glaring exceptions. They go by many names, but they are most often known as...

The Noobtraps


What are they?
You’re probably already aware of what a noobtrap is if you’re an average frequenter of policy review. But for the uneducated, a noobtrap is a Pokemon that is actually very underwhelming in the tier it lies in, but since it looks so good on paper (albeit being awful in practice), low/mid ladder players use it anyway because it seems great. They eventually may realize it’s underwhelming, but by that point, the damage has been done. Their usage of the Pokemon has already contributed to the Smogon usage stats. And when said stats come out, people see these horribly inflated statistics that do not properly reflect these crappy creatures’ viability. This, in turn, leads to a vicious circle where new players to the tier see these high usage stats and think “Wow, this Pokemon must be really good if it’s being used so much!”.

There have been some very infamous cases of noobtraps ending up in places they shouldn’t be. The most well-known is probably DPP OU Electivire, which remained OU the entire generation, despite being garbage. This was because new players saw Electivire’s good Attack stat and nice coverage and assumed it must be good. This generation, the biggest instance of a noobtrap is probably RU Donphan, which, despite currently residing in a blacklist tier of terrible RU Pokemon, consistently lands itself in the top 10 for usage, even reaching #1 at some points.

So it’s just low ladder idiots using bad Pokemon. So what?

Think about this for a second. Why did we create Smogon tiers in the first place? The whole point of tiers was to (theoretically) make a system where every Pokemon could have a place where it could be at least somewhat viable. Ubers and OU are for the best of the best, while NU, PU and LC allow the weaker Pokemon to have some time in the spotlight. Noobtraps basically throw this idea out of the window: They force crappy Pokemon to stick around in tiers they can’t do shit in just because some children don’t know how to play the game. They also have contributed to the poor reputation of the usage stats in general: No remotely experienced player considers them the reliable picture of the metagame that they should be. In short, noobtraps in their current state are dragging down the reputation of Smogon’s own tiering systems. They also drag down Pokemon that could be great in lower tiers. Dhelmise could be awesome in NU as a nice blanket check for bulky Pokemon like Mega Audino, Steelix and certain Xatu variants, but alas, we may never know, because the RU ladder is stupid.

How do we put an end to this?
And here’s where my main proposal kicks in. My proposal is to allow certain Pokemon that are “bad” in the tiers they are in but remain in those tiers by usage to be able to be suspected and allowed in lower tiers, a la BL Pokemon.

To show you how this system will work, I will be using an example of a hypothetical NU Donphan suspect.

Step 1: The NU Tier Leadership takes a look at the RU VR one day and realizes “Well geez, Donphan is ass in that tier, why not let it down here?” So what they do is they first must host a vote amongst the council on whether to let it in or not. The ultimate tally must result in at least 70% of the council agreeing to suspect Donphan.

Step 2: Once Step 1 is done, the NU Council must then show the RU Council their vote and their reasons for letting Donphan into the tier. If the RU Council decides that Donphan is bad enough in RU to warrant a test in NU, they just give the NU Council the green light to go ahead with their plans.

Step 3: From this point on forth, the NU Council treats the Donphan suspect like re-testing a BL3 Pokemon. A post is made on the NU forum announcing the suspect, a ladder is made where Donphan is allowed, it goes on for a few weeks, and at the end of it, those who qualify for voting get to vote on whether to allow Donphan in NU or not.

And that’s it. Pretty simple, eh?

The whole goal of this system is to try to alleviate people’s concerns about high ranking members using a system like this for personal gain. Not only would they need permission from the guys managing the upper tier, but they would also ultimately have the community decide whether to open the gates to this Pokemon.

Benefits:
  • D/C-/C rank Pokemon only in that tier because of usage can finally drop to a tier where they can really shine
  • Dropping Pokemon like this could lead to new possibilities and meta changes in the tiers they drop to
  • Using this system could also indirectly get the usage of the noobtraps down: If children see their broken god mon is in the tier below what they’re playing, they might think it isn’t as good as people let on and skip out when making their team
  • It doesn’t cause upper tier leaders to waste time: It’s ultimately the choice of the lower tier councils whether to suspect a “bad” Pokemon in the upper tier.
Q&A
Q: Isn’t this a little complex when it comes to usage-based updates?
A: Is it, really? Surely it can’t be that tough to just keep a list of dropped noobtraps somewhere and cross their names out every month when tier shifts come around.

Q: Wouldn’t it be easier to make PSAs or something telling people not to use these Pokemon?
A: Thing is, these PSAs have been made in the past. And they have never worked. The types of people who would use crap like Forretress in UU and Donphan in RU often don’t read nor participate in Smogon forum discussions. Therefore, the info doesn’t reach them. Meanwhile, the people who do read these posts probably are knowledgeable enough in that tier to realize these Pokemon suck anyway. These PSAs are like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound: They may have a tiny effect in the short term, but long term, the wound will continue to fester, and the band-aid will just peel off and be forgotten. You can’t even say that they’re faster/easier to do: Making a long article about a mon sucking only for it to have zero tangible effect on usage seems a lot more like a waste of time than just unbanning/suspecting it in the tier below and being done with it.

Q: Something being “bad” in a tier is purely subjective, you can’t force things like this.
A: Let me tell you about this thing. It’s called “community consensus”. That’s the main concept that most, no, all formats’ Viability Rankings are built upon on. Pokemon higher on a viability ranking means that players of the format that Pokemon is ranked high in generally think that it has a series of very good qualities that make it worthy of being placed in that rank. Sure, there’s always going to be someone who thinks that Rotom-H is a slept-on monster in UU, or that Latias is overrated trash in that tier. But when a mon is placed somewhere in a VR, it typically means that’s the overall perspective of that Pokemon’s usefulness from a good majority of the tier’s playerbase. This same idea applies to low-ranked Pokemon, too. Blastoise, Dhelmise, Donphan etc. are low ranked in RU despite their high usage because most of the experienced portion of the playerbase agrees they are horrible and outclassed. Same goes for Hitmontop in NU, and Forretress/Arcanine in UU. These are Pokemon that almost everyone who actually knows what they’re doing agrees that they should drop to lower tiers, but may never will because of the stupidity of newbies. It’s not like dropping them equates to banning them in the tier above. Children/noobs can still spam the “op and good” Donphan in RU, or the “broken defensive wall” Arcanine in UU. It just means that they can actually see usage in high level play in lower tiers.

Q: Up to how many tiers can you suspect a mon from?
A: TLs may only suspect Pokemon in the tier directly above them.
 
I tend to lurk here, but this occurrence is so bizzare to me that I signed up give my opinion about this.

Even though I love many non-competitive mons, and like seeing people do creative things with them, the Ambipom incident is very problematic to lower tiers. It unfairly "joke bans" those said Pokemon from being used in tiers that they may actually do well in, or could potentially make other tiers unstable by removing checks and such that keep other mons/playstyle from being broken.

Seriously: This calls for action to stop this. Like how smogon has BL tiers, there should be a "Meme" Tier, of which while a Pokemon is in a higher tier by usage, it was forced there in a non-competitive fashion, so it can be unbanned from the lower tiers to where it really belongs.

Smogon bans mons that are broken, and unbans them when they are not. So how would it be unreasonable to make a process to unban mons that were unfairly forced into tiers that they could never compete in any way?

Edit: Somewhat Ninja'd by Yung Dramps.
 
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Disclaimer: I've seen about half the episodes of Ambipom TTT, and I've watched Joey's new video about it rising to OU. I say this to show I'm not oblivious to what's been going on, while also not coming off as one of Joey's Pro-Ambipom fanboys.

About Ambipom
A niche does not give something a place in a tier. Just because Shiinotic can switch it on an outrage and use spore doesnt make it viable in uu. Adding on to that what even is Ambipom's niche. I remember Joey usually going out of his way to make bad plays so Ambipom found some way to do something in the battle, and saying that Ambipom was crucial to winning this game despite it using Fake Out once and dying later. People say it can use fire punch to ohko scizor but it sure as hell isnt switching in on it, and there are already way better checks to it. The only argument I see for Ambipom being in uu is that "Smogon is all about creativity and using whatever you want!" Well A. It's not, but someone else already pointed that out, and B. That's not a good argument.

EDIT: Isnt PIF supposed to leave a reply telling us why Ambipom deserves usage in UU? Tick tock buddy because we're all waiting.

About Ambipom TTT
Do i care that an unviable mon has been brought to a tier where it'seven more unviable? No. I couldn't care less if one day someone brought Dewgong or Butterfree to RU, as ultimately it wouldn't be a huge change to the metagame, besides running into a few bad teams. The only thing I would be concerned about is if it never feel back to PU, because it was stuck as "Noob Bait." However I do mind when someone takes a mon like Mamoswine to OU, where it likely wouldn't be found viable enough to stay in the OU tier, yet would shake up the UU tier until it's inevetible drop back to UU. Seeing it's the only ice type in the tier, I feel Gliscor would become more spammable in the tier, and may result in it's ban despite Mamoswine usually keeping it in check.

But that's just my two cents.
 
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You see about people being mad about ambipom being in UU...its a game its supposed to be fun a game is literally MADE to be fun and therefore sell to the directed audience it doesn't matter if ambipom is in UU or PU saying it won't be used in UU most likely and it was never used in PU if you care that much about an unviable pokemon being in a tier it shouldn't be in then you shouldn't be playing this game anyway because you're much more focused on what people like using then actually having fun playing the game while I'm not on the side of ambipom TTT fanboys you shouldn't be mad about something that won't matter
 
However I do mind when someone takes a mon like Mamoswine to OU, where it likely wouldn't be found viable enough to stay in the OU tier, yet would shake up the UU tier until it's inevetible drop back to nu. Seeing it's the only ice type in the tier, I feel Gliscor would become more spammable in the tier, and may result in it's ban despite Mamoswine usually keeping it in check.
Since when did Mamo ever drop to NU?
 
Since when did Mamo ever drop to NU?
This is why I usually don't write posts. Fixed it now tysm.


You see about people being mad about ambipom being in UU...its a game its supposed to be fun a game is literally MADE to be fun and therefore sell to the directed audience it doesn't matter if ambipom is in UU or PU saying it won't be used in UU most likely and it was never used in PU if you care that much about an unviable pokemon being in a tier it shouldn't be in then you shouldn't be playing this game anyway because you're much more focused on what people like using then actually having fun playing the game while I'm not on the side of ambipom TTT fanboys you shouldn't be mad about something that won't matter
Read your post a few times and still have no idea what you said. However for someone who says they're not on the side of the "ambipom TTT fanboys" You sure do like to make a lot of posts on why we're wrong for saying ambipom shouldn't be UU.

EDIT: RIP me for accidentally double posting, meant for this to be added to my original post.
 
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Im just saying it doesn't actually matter if ambipom is in UU or PU its all the same it probably won't be used again so don't get that mad about it if you want to use it use it if you don't want to don't in the end it is just a game its meant to be fun its not meant to be a bunch of arguments about what should be what(also thats kinda what i said in a shorter version if you really couldn't understand that)
Read your post a few times and still have no idea what you said. However for someone who says they're not on the side of the "ambipom TTT fanboys" You sure do like to make a lot of posts on why we're wrong for saying ambipom shouldn't be UU.
 
So, this whole Ambipom fiasco has raised some concerns about community members with influence taking advantage of their influence to forcibly yank Pokemon into higher tiers they may not fit in. And you know what? This could be a valid concern. As others have mentioned, the fact a major figure like Pokeaim was able to move an NU mon (which wasn't even that good in NU to begin with) all the way up to UU does raise some questions about how these people with influence could manipulate the system.

Well, fear not everyone, for I have a solution to this issue.

Back in late 2017, I made a proposal to address another issue with the usage system: Noobtraps. (Donphan in RU, Forretress in UU, etc.) I put it on the back burners because some major tours like SPL were coming up, and it would be brash to propose a huge change to the system right before such huge events. I figure now is the time to share this proposal with everyone, for this system could also be used to address situations like Ambipom's. I want y'all to read it and tell me what you think.

Smogon’s usage-based tier system has been, for the most part, effective. It’s one of the best indicators of metagame trends, useful Pokemon, and worthwhile sets. However, in this fairly fine-tuned system, there are some glaring exceptions. They go by many names, but they are most often known as...

The Noobtraps


What are they?
You’re probably already aware of what a noobtrap is if you’re an average frequenter of policy review. But for the uneducated, a noobtrap is a Pokemon that is actually very underwhelming in the tier it lies in, but since it looks so good on paper (albeit being awful in practice), low/mid ladder players use it anyway because it seems great. They eventually may realize it’s underwhelming, but by that point, the damage has been done. Their usage of the Pokemon has already contributed to the Smogon usage stats. And when said stats come out, people see these horribly inflated statistics that do not properly reflect these crappy creatures’ viability. This, in turn, leads to a vicious circle where new players to the tier see these high usage stats and think “Wow, this Pokemon must be really good if it’s being used so much!”.

There have been some very infamous cases of noobtraps ending up in places they shouldn’t be. The most well-known is probably DPP OU Electivire, which remained OU the entire generation, despite being garbage. This was because new players saw Electivire’s good Attack stat and nice coverage and assumed it must be good. This generation, the biggest instance of a noobtrap is probably RU Donphan, which, despite currently residing in a blacklist tier of terrible RU Pokemon, consistently lands itself in the top 10 for usage, even reaching #1 at some points.

So it’s just low ladder idiots using bad Pokemon. So what?
Think about this for a second. Why did we create Smogon tiers in the first place? The whole point of tiers was to (theoretically) make a system where every Pokemon could have a place where it could be at least somewhat viable. Ubers and OU are for the best of the best, while NU, PU and LC allow the weaker Pokemon to have some time in the spotlight. Noobtraps basically throw this idea out of the window: They force crappy Pokemon to stick around in tiers they can’t do shit in just because some children don’t know how to play the game. They also have contributed to the poor reputation of the usage stats in general: No remotely experienced player considers them the reliable picture of the metagame that they should be. In short, noobtraps in their current state are dragging down the reputation of Smogon’s own tiering systems. They also drag down Pokemon that could be great in lower tiers. Dhelmise could be awesome in NU as a nice blanket check for bulky Pokemon like Mega Audino, Steelix and certain Xatu variants, but alas, we may never know, because the RU ladder is stupid.

How do we put an end to this?
And here’s where my main proposal kicks in. My proposal is to allow certain Pokemon that are “bad” in the tiers they are in but remain in those tiers by usage to be able to be suspected and allowed in lower tiers, a la BL Pokemon.

To show you how this system will work, I will be using an example of a hypothetical NU Donphan suspect.

Step 1: The NU Tier Leadership takes a look at the RU VR one day and realizes “Well geez, Donphan is ass in that tier, why not let it down here?” So what they do is they first must host a vote amongst the council on whether to let it in or not. The ultimate tally must result in at least 70% of the council agreeing to suspect Donphan.

Step 2: Once Step 1 is done, the NU Council must then show the RU Council their vote and their reasons for letting Donphan into the tier. If the RU Council decides that Donphan is bad enough in RU to warrant a test in NU, they just give the NU Council the green light to go ahead with their plans.

Step 3: From this point on forth, the NU Council treats the Donphan suspect like re-testing a BL3 Pokemon. A post is made on the NU forum announcing the suspect, a ladder is made where Donphan is allowed, it goes on for a few weeks, and at the end of it, those who qualify for voting get to vote on whether to allow Donphan in NU or not.

And that’s it. Pretty simple, eh?

The whole goal of this system is to try to alleviate people’s concerns about high ranking members using a system like this for personal gain. Not only would they need permission from the guys managing the upper tier, but they would also ultimately have the community decide whether to open the gates to this Pokemon.

Benefits:
  • D/C-/C rank Pokemon only in that tier because of usage can finally drop to a tier where they can really shine
  • Dropping Pokemon like this could lead to new possibilities and meta changes in the tiers they drop to
  • Using this system could also indirectly get the usage of the noobtraps down: If children see their broken god mon is in the tier below what they’re playing, they might think it isn’t as good as people let on and skip out when making their team
  • It doesn’t cause upper tier leaders to waste time: It’s ultimately the choice of the lower tier councils whether to suspect a “bad” Pokemon in the upper tier.
Q&A
Q: Isn’t this a little complex when it comes to usage-based updates?
A: Is it, really? Surely it can’t be that tough to just keep a list of dropped noobtraps somewhere and cross their names out every month when tier shifts come around.

Q: Wouldn’t it be easier to make PSAs or something telling people not to use these Pokemon?
A: Thing is, these PSAs have been made in the past. And they have never worked. The types of people who would use crap like Forretress in UU and Donphan in RU often don’t read nor participate in Smogon forum discussions. Therefore, the info doesn’t reach them. Meanwhile, the people who do read these posts probably are knowledgeable enough in that tier to realize these Pokemon suck anyway. These PSAs are like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound: They may have a tiny effect in the short term, but long term, the wound will continue to fester, and the band-aid will just peel off and be forgotten. You can’t even say that they’re faster/easier to do: Making a long article about a mon sucking only for it to have zero tangible effect on usage seems a lot more like a waste of time than just unbanning/suspecting it in the tier below and being done with it.

Q: Something being “bad” in a tier is purely subjective, you can’t force things like this.
A: Let me tell you about this thing. It’s called “community consensus”. That’s the main concept that most, no, all formats’ Viability Rankings are built upon on. Pokemon higher on a viability ranking means that players of the format that Pokemon is ranked high in generally think that it has a series of very good qualities that make it worthy of being placed in that rank. Sure, there’s always going to be someone who thinks that Rotom-H is a slept-on monster in UU, or that Latias is overrated trash in that tier. But when a mon is placed somewhere in a VR, it typically means that’s the overall perspective of that Pokemon’s usefulness from a good majority of the tier’s playerbase. This same idea applies to low-ranked Pokemon, too. Blastoise, Dhelmise, Donphan etc. are low ranked in RU despite their high usage because most of the experienced portion of the playerbase agrees they are horrible and outclassed. Same goes for Hitmontop in NU, and Forretress/Arcanine in UU. These are Pokemon that almost everyone who actually knows what they’re doing agrees that they should drop to lower tiers, but may never will because of the stupidity of newbies. It’s not like dropping them equates to banning them in the tier above. Children/noobs can still spam the “op and good” Donphan in RU, or the “broken defensive wall” Arcanine in UU. It just means that they can actually see usage in high level play in lower tiers.

Q: Up to how many tiers can you suspect a mon from?
A: TLs may only suspect Pokemon in the tier directly above them.
I get where this is coming from, but doesn't this seem a bit generalizing? What if people just want to use these specific Pokemon in the tiers that they're allowed in, but can't effectively use it anywhere else? "Noobtraps basically throw this idea out of the window: They force crappy Pokemon to stick around in tiers they can’t do shit in just because some children don’t know how to play the game."

Seems a bit harsh to say something like that towards inexperienced players, no? It's also not like children are the only inexperienced players that try to play in Smogon formats. Tbh, this is probably one of the reasons why Pokeaim did what he did.
 
Im just saying it doesn't actually matter if ambipom is in UU or PU its all the same it probably won't be used again so don't get that mad about it if you want to use it use it if you don't want to don't in the end it is just a game its meant to be fun its not meant to be a bunch of arguments about what should be what(also thats kinda what i said in a shorter version if you really couldn't understand that)
Do i care that an unviable mon has been brought to a tier where it's even more unviable? No. I couldn't care less
 
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