Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Mar Changes @696)

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Dussky

formerly UB-013
eh i’ll contribute to the Staraptor thing a bit.
It CAN be good.
but rarely have i ever seen it be pulled off successfully. and with rocks and recoil it gets 1-2 good hits off and it’s dead.
i dont use it so i wouldn’t kno tho thats just my experience against it
 

-Latios-

PLOT ARMOR INTENSIFIES
is a Pre-Contributor
  • yay ambipom is uu :psyglad:
  • no ambipom is uu :psycry:
  • i hate aim :psyangry:
  • stop hating on aim :psynervous:
  • can we pls change the tiering system :psygrump:
  • [insertpokemonnamehere]TTT :psyduck:
  • this thread in a nutshell posts :psysly:
  • flame wars :psywoke:
  • meaningless posts that add nothing to discussion :psysad:
  • image / gif of ambi

The only important point of discussion at this point is how tiering works. Currently, Smogon tiers are based on usage. Usage is often influenced by meta trends and/or a Pokemon's viability. In the case of Ambipom
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, this was a Pokemon whose usage was influenced by pokeaimMD, a YouTuber and popular figure when it comes to Pokemon. He laddered using primarily Ambipom "as a meme" and because he felt it was "underrated." This, thanks to his following, created the movement Ambipom To The Top, or AmbipomTTT. Several users used Ambipom on the ladder, including myself, which resulted in its placement of 8th in usage. The primary question right now is "Should it be this easy to influence usage?" Community members are even taking it as far to hate on pokeaim or suggest changes to the tiering system to prevent this from happening again. I feel like as long as it's not in malicious intent towards the community (so as if aim purposefully used his following to disrupt the meta), "to the top" movements are fine. This will likely never affect suspect tests in the future, and if a content creator made their own series getting another Pokemon that didn't get banned from a suspect test "to the top," tier leaders and the respective staff would eventually find a way to stop it.

Verdict: Imo, let people "influence" the usage stats as long as their clear intent isn't to disrupt the meta or get Pokemon out of tiers they feel are broken in.
 
Last comment on the topic: I don’t give a shit about Ambipom specifically (don’t even play/follow UU) but the point is that a single person shouldn’t be able to affect tiering for the rest of the entire site. That’s not in the spirit of using usage-based tiers, which are intended to reflect trends, not outliers. If you think a mon is underrated, get it to move up by showcasing it in high-level play to encourage others to use it (which has happened plenty of times in OU this gen), don’t shove it through the tiering process yourself

But didn't he, and many other people do this to some extent?
His reasoning for doing the series is that he felt like Ambipom was underated in UU.
Many people were able to make it to the top of the ladder using Ambipom. Unless we're assuming that everyone above the ladder requirements that effect usage are bad, then I don't see how this doesn't justify the mon being in the teir
and if the players are just bad we shouldn't change the way things are tiered just because of a few shit players being unable to handle unviable Pokemon. Instead we should focus on giving those bad players more resources to improve so people can't just do this again.

The issue isn't with the tiering process, if a Pokemon is viable in a tier, i dont see a reason it shouldn't be allowed to be placed in that teir, and why you shouldn't be allowed to show players that it's viable(as joey did). If it's not viable, then it shouldn't have been able to raise, because if top of the ladder players should be able to win 6v5's lol


Not only all of this, but just wait for it to drop, it's not that big of a deal. if you legit think this mon is bad despite losing to it consistently, maybe you should look into why you're losing.
I don't think a tiering system needs to be changed for someone showing a Pokemon's merits. You might not agree, and that's fine. if it's bad it will drop. why don't we just do tier shifts more often? I dont see what harm could come from this, and while it doesn't prevent bad mons from rising(the ladder and the good mons in the tier do) it does prevent a Pokemon from apparently being in a tier it doesn't deserve to be in for a shorter amount of time. I also don't see any negatives about doing it more often, but I might not be thinking it fully through



If I'm wrong on anything or you disagree with me, please correct me or let me know what it is that you disagree with. I'm here to learn, and by doing so, become a better player
 
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aim's goal: ruin UU and turn it into a trash tier
while we're at it let's get Electivire, Archeops, and Shedinja to rise to UU as well!!!

Electivire @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop / Earthquake
- Volt Switch / Fire Punch

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- U-turn
if you don't realize these sets are meant as jokes then ur actually dumb
@3above low ladder is called low ladder for a reason
 
aim's goal: ruin UU and turn it into a trash tier
while we're at it let's get Electivire, Archeops, and Shedinja to rise to UU as well!!!

Electivire @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop / Earthquake
- Volt Switch / Fire Punch

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- U-turn
if you don't realize these sets are meant as jokes then ur actually dumb
@3above low ladder is called low ladder for a reason
Yeah Lets do it!
 
aim's goal: ruin UU and turn it into a trash tier
while we're at it let's get Electivire, Archeops, and Shedinja to rise to UU as well!!!

Electivire @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop / Earthquake
- Volt Switch / Fire Punch

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- U-turn
if you don't realize these sets are meant as jokes then ur actually dumb
@3above low ladder is called low ladder for a reason
it's not a trash tier, just full of trash players if they can't win 6v5's since the mon is "so bad" (protip, this likely isn't the case at all and the mon is just viable)

If you are able to show that any of those mons are viable by getting multiple accounts into the top 10, I'm sure other people would use them, thus raising their usage. i know Joey didn't get multiple accounts into the top 10 using ambipom, just 1, but you don't have the reach he does either, so it's harder for you to show a mons merits to 1000's of people
 
aim's goal: ruin UU and turn it into a trash tier
while we're at it let's get Electivire, Archeops, and Shedinja to rise to UU as well!!!

Electivire @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop / Earthquake
- Volt Switch / Fire Punch

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- U-turn
if you don't realize these sets are meant as jokes then ur actually dumb
@3above low ladder is called low ladder for a reason
those mons ain't beating the 2 most used mons in the tier and even more
 
I expected a shitstorm of some defree for Ambipom TTT... but boy, was I off on how big.

Though it does show that with proper use, even Ambipom can be useful.

Meanwhile the Prince can finally rest easy. You can relax now Dugtrio, you won't have to move anywhere anymore.
 
aim's goal: ruin UU and turn it into a trash tier
while we're at it let's get Electivire, Archeops, and Shedinja to rise to UU as well!!!

Electivire @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop / Earthquake
- Volt Switch / Fire Punch

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- U-turn
if you don't realize these sets are meant as jokes then ur actually dumb
@3above low ladder is called low ladder for a reason
I'd say that Aim's series about being more creative team building and seeing Niches in Pokemon is more reckless fun, than intentional sabotage of tiers. It may be fun for some people like himself, but him encouraging other people to be more creative with team building and increasing usage of Pokemon is going to harm low tiers a lot and make them lose the purpose they had in the first place. Sure Ambipom is just so outclassed in every tier and won't be missed, but what about key Pokemon in NU/PU/RU that get artificially sent to OU. It would screw over tiers if Pokemon were rising because of e-celebs and their drones. It can also harm the Pokemon itself, as now, Ambipom is stuck in a tier it will get destroyed.

Another reckless thing about this series is that other PokeTubers could do the same for memes or for plain old abuse. They could be playing on ladder in NU, get beaten by teams that had the same Wall, Wallbreaker, ect. then make a video saying "Yooooo!!!! What is up guys. Today I have a challenge for you and it is for you to get this Pokemon to OU on Showdown! Comment, Like, and give me Patreonbux!".

Again, I don't think Aim is intentionally going out of his way to ruin any tier, let alone UU (which I don't see how Ambipom being in UU affects it that much outside of low ladder), but his actions will have unintended consequences for NU and PU.

I honestly would propose a few things to prevent PokeTubers from ruining low tier metas, some more extreme than others:
1. Make usage in tournaments the most prominent (if not the only) usage for tiers
2. Make it a rule for PokeTubers with Smogon accounts to say in their videos that they will discourage raids and things similar to raids
3. Temporarily blacklist certain Pokemon so they can't raise that are being targeted for raids (or even just in general. Get some of the D Ranked Pokemon in RU to NU. It's too cruel to have them there)
4. Implement a way for Viability Ranks to mix with the usage aspect in tiers
5. Have free and paid accounts on here and Showdown (where the paid accounts can instantly get past low ladder or being able to post threads earlier and other stuff) and also make it so that accounts that do pay have their usage counted with higher priority
6. A mixture of everything here.

Also, for UU in particular, I would recommend not sending everything (namely wallbreakers) to BL Hell tbh.
 
it's not a trash tier, just full of trash players if they can't win 6v5's since the mon is "so bad" (protip, this likely isn't the case at all and the mon is just viable)

If you are able to show that any of those mons are viable by getting multiple accounts into the top 10, I'm sure other people would use them, thus raising their usage. i know Joey didn't get multiple accounts into the top 10 using ambipom, just 1, but you don't have the reach he does either, so it's harder for you to show a mons merits to 1000's of people
UU has 1/6 of the player base of OU, and a lower usage threshold for tiering(1630 as opposed to 1695); it's entirely possible for a couple of influential good players and an horde of mediocre players to influence usage to this extent if they all decide to do the same thing. Remember trash mons like Arcanine are already UU by usage(interestingly enough, Arcanine's usage plummeted this month, as if the same people who would use it are the same ones that would fall for the Ambipom meme, makes one ponder...)
 
I don't post much (if at all) but for the love of all things sacred, whether or not Ambipom is viable or has a niche is not the problem and is not worth discussing. The "issue" (if there is one) is that one person used their fame to fuck with a lower tier for the fun of it. It was benign this time but setting this precedent is not good for reasons already explained, namely the fact that someone could use it to remove Pokemon from a tier they think it is broken in, but lack the community consensus to suspect it.

Every single post about whether Ambipom is good or not is not helpful at all.

It's interesting that every time a reasonable person states something to the effect of "we should be discussing the implications of this" trolls derail the conversation by spamming the same faulty arguments for why Ambipom is good. Also interesting is the fact that the trolls claim that the reasonable people are bitching about Ambipom being UU, despite the fact that the majority are not saying anything of the sort.

Time to go drink myself to death because I cannot believe I read through all of those pages of trollish filth
 
So either:
>UU players are so trash that even top 100 players regularly lose to Pokeaim when he basically plays 6v5.1
>Pokeaim is so godly at the game that he can play a tier he barely focuses on otherwise and win 6v5.1
>Ambipom while not being great, has a niche and is viable in the tier if you build around its strengths
Pick any of the 3.
Either the first or the second one, the third one would be believable if lots of people(around at least 10) managed to get to top 50 with Ambi which I don't recall being the case.
 
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