Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Mar Changes @696)

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For the record, I 100% support Joey's effort to get Mamo up to OU if it means Gliscunt- I mean Gliscrap- Sorry, I meant Gliscor gets one step closer to being banned from UU.
People won't ban Gliscor even if Mamoswine leaves. It will become harder to deal with but it will stay.
Tbh, if Joey wanted to let a Ground-type rise, he should have chosen either Gliscor (not that UU is going to miss it) or Mega Camerupt (shit in RU but surprisingly good and anti-meta in OU). Mamoswine doesn't really have a place in OU, really. Can work with a lot of support, but because of this required support it does not easily fit on all teams and thus will not reach the required usage to rise if not for people like Joey practically forcing it to rise. Nearly unresisted STAB isn't an argument--Rotom-Frost and Rhyperior also have nearly unresisted STAB and are absolute shit in OU play. Greninja literally has unresisted STAB against the entire meta (then again that's not that hard when you get STAB on literally everything)
 

Molk

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I get why people are mad but do people really think this was actual trolling by Pokeaim? It feels like people here are serious when they say he wanted to ruin UU but why would he want to ruin the tier? He plays almost all the tiers so to ruin a tier would be ruining the fun for him as well.

And let's be honest, tiers by usage was always flawed to begin with. Has it been a problem in the past? Yes, Metang rose to RU in 5th gen all because of one guy. Someone being able to raise a Pokemon to a tier it shouldn't be in is nothing new and has shown how flawed usage based tiering can be. But how else are you gonna make tiers for Pokemon? There are simply to many mons to tier them on how good someone thinks they are.

If I were to make a suggestion I would simply say increase the amount of points you need on the ladder in order for the usage to really rise. I'm not an expert on how the ladder works but I just thought I'd try to be productive and give my opinion.



In all seriousness, might give my thoughts a bit later.
 
People won't ban Gliscor even if Mamoswine leaves. It will become harder to deal with but it will stay.
Tbh, if Joey wanted to let a Ground-type rise, he should have chosen either Gliscor (not that UU is going to miss it) or Mega Camerupt (shit in RU but surprisingly good and anti-meta in OU). Mamoswine doesn't really have a place in OU, really. Can work with a lot of support, but because of this required support it does not easily fit on all teams and thus will not reach the required usage to rise if not for people like Joey practically forcing it to rise. Nearly unresisted STAB isn't an argument--Rotom-Frost and Rhyperior also have nearly unresisted STAB and are absolute shit in OU play. Greninja literally has unresisted STAB against the entire meta (then again that's not that hard when you get STAB on literally everything)
If the point was to cause a viable ground-type to rise, then logical reasoning. But it ain’t. It’s to get a Pokemon put into a tier because they want it there.

Besides, with how well it can do against Garchomp, i figured Mamoswine would be part of the calvacade of why Landorus-T isn’t overpowered.

If I were to make a suggestion I would simply say increase the amount of points you need on the ladder in order for the usage to really rise. I'm not an expert on how the ladder works but I just thought I'd try to be productive and give my opinion.
Why not just keep an eye out for popular pokemon youtubers doing stuff like this and just ignore their usage in that tier entirely if they try a stunt like this?
 
If the point was to cause a viable ground-type to rise, then logical reasoning. But it ain’t. It’s to get a Pokemon put into a tier because they want it there.

Besides, with how well it can do against Garchomp, i figured Mamoswine would be part of the calvacade of why Landorus-T isn’t overpowered.



Why not just keep an eye out for popular pokemon youtubers doing stuff like this and just ignore their usage in that tier entirely if they try a stunt like this?
But then those youtubers can do fake campaigns to prevent mons from rising, which would be almost as bad.
 
Or you could just stop being toxic about the tiers. Who the fk cares, whether Mamoswine goes to OU or not? If it really "doesn't have a place" in the tier, like y'all said, it's just gonna drop back to UU the month after that. So what's the issue?

Also, lol. "doesn't have a place" in a meta, where stuff like Toxapex, Lando-T, Garchomp, Heatran, Magearna and Latios exist. Literally nothing switches into Ice/Ground coverage. The only Pokemon in OU that resists both is Rotom-W.
 
Or you could just stop being toxic about the tiers. Who the fk cares, whether Mamoswine goes to OU or not? If it really "doesn't have a place" in the tier, like y'all said, it's just gonna drop back to UU the month after that. So what's the issue?

Also, lol. "doesn't have a place" in a meta, where stuff like Toxapex, Lando-T, Garchomp, Heatran, Magearna and Latios exist. Literally nothing switches into Ice/Ground coverage. The only Pokemon in OU that resists both is Rotom-W.
Maybe you misunderstood "not having a place in the tier". Allow me to explain.

So, tiers (are meant to) represent Pokémon viability (let's ignore noobtraps because they defy the concept of tiering too). If a Pokémon fares well in a tier, it can earn a spot on many teams and earn enough usage to be put in that usage tier.

Now, with Mamoswine, there's the problem. Mamoswine is indeed a Pokémon that can fare well in OU. However, it's not your generic Ground-type like Zygarde, Excadrill or LandOUrus-T that can be put on a lot of teams. Mamo needs quite a lot of support to actually work well. It is something that should be built around from almost the beginning of teambuilding--preferably Mamo should be in the core itself. This means that Mamoswine isn't used on a lot of teams and does not reach enough usage to actually become OU--despite being viable when getting the right support.

Also, with your "nothing wants to switch in on Ground/Ice coverage" argument: Rhyperior has freaking STAB EdgeQuake coverage coming from an almost godly attack stat. When was the last time you saw Rhyperior (or any Rock/Ground) in OU?
 
Maybe you misunderstood "not having a place in the tier". Allow me to explain.

So, tiers (are meant to) represent Pokémon viability (let's ignore noobtraps because they defy the concept of tiering too). If a Pokémon fares well in a tier, it can earn a spot on many teams and earn enough usage to be put in that usage tier.

Now, with Mamoswine, there's the problem. Mamoswine is indeed a Pokémon that can fare well in OU. However, it's not your generic Ground-type like Zygarde, Excadrill or LandOUrus-T that can be put on a lot of teams. Mamo needs quite a lot of support to actually work well. It is something that should be built around from almost the beginning of teambuilding--preferably Mamo should be in the core itself. This means that Mamoswine isn't used on a lot of teams and does not reach enough usage to actually become OU--despite being viable when getting the right support.

Also, with your "nothing wants to switch in on Ground/Ice coverage" argument: Rhyperior has freaking STAB EdgeQuake coverage coming from an almost godly attack stat. When was the last time you saw Rhyperior (or any Rock/Ground) in OU?
You keep mentioning how Mamoswine requires a lot of support but don't specify what that means. What exactly does it need "quite a lot of" to even work? Why do you think you need to structure a team so heavily around it to make it work? Your argument for it being so support heavy doesn't have much merit to it when you say vague shit like "it just needs a lot to work."

Also your unresisted STAB comparison doesn't really work because that's not the sole reason for either of them not being used. Rhyperior is also slow and has a dogshit defensive typing so it can't be a consistent wallbreaker or rocker. Mamo however has enough speed to be a decent offensive rocker and check for slower threats (Heatran, Mage etc.), and has Ice Shard which allows it to check several of the more offensive threats (Lando, Zyggy, Lati, etc.) You have to consider other factors that play into a mon's ability to utilize their fantastic STAB coverage.

Also something of note, Mamo has gotten a bit of discussion lately in the OU VR thread and has been gaining a bit of traction, so you can't really ignore that and act like it's a niche mon.
 
You keep mentioning how Mamoswine requires a lot of support but don't specify what that means. What exactly does it need "quite a lot of" to even work? Why do you think you need to structure a team so heavily around it to make it work? Your argument for it being so support heavy doesn't have much merit to it when you say vague shit like "it just needs a lot to work."

Also your unresisted STAB comparison doesn't really work because that's not the sole reason for either of them not being used. Rhyperior is also slow and has a dogshit defensive typing so it can't be a consistent wallbreaker or rocker. Mamo however has enough speed to be a decent offensive rocker and check for slower threats (Heatran, Mage etc.), and has Ice Shard which allows it to check several of the more offensive threats (Lando, Zyggy, Lati, etc.) You have to consider other factors that play into a mon's ability to utilize their fantastic STAB coverage.

Also something of note, Mamo has gotten a bit of discussion lately in the OU VR thread and has been gaining a bit of traction, so you can't really ignore that and act like it's a niche mon.
I expected someone to ask what kind of support it needs--and I will happily tell you.

Just like Rhyperior (although to a much lesser degree), Mamo has a shit defensive typing. It may block Volt Switch, but it doesn't really help that the most common Volt Switcher (other than Koko, who doesn't always run VSwitch) is a hard counter to Mamoswine. So it doesn't really provide a lot of defensive utility.

Second, a very large amount of threatening OU attackers can easily take advantage of it. Most notably, Mega Scizor can easily switch into even Earthquake and scare Mamo away with Bullet Punch, or set up with SDance. There are a quite a lot of other threatening Pokémon you will need solid checks or counters to: (Ash)-Greninja, Keldeo, Kartana, (Mega) Gyarados with its evil 1 speed point difference, and the aforementioned Rotom-W.

You may say that none of these Pokémon (other than Washtom) can safely switch into Mamo. However, Mamo has a hard time switching into the stuff it is meant to counter too. Tapu Koko hits it hard with Dazzling Gleam or even the rare Grass Knot thanks to Mamo's mediocre special bulk. This is especially dangerous since Koko outspeeds Mamoswine. Heatran, one of the more notable targets, can almost outright KO Mamo on the switch with Flash Cannon or Bloom Doom when it's offensive, and even with Thick Fat, a Magma Storm will hurt too. LandoT and Garchomp can just damage it with their own Earthquakes and switch into a check to remove Mamo's last bit of HP. Tapu Bulu doesn't need any explanation honestly.
So Mamo is better suited as a revenge killer of these Pokémon. However, its mediocre speed tier means it will often rely too much on Ice Shard to snipe faster foes, and with proper prediction, this can give a free switch to dangerous sweepers. Well, you did scare the opponent out...
But, honestly, what reason is there to use Mamoswine as your Ice Shard RKer over Weavile, other than being a check to Heatran?

The Toxapex matchup seems quite poor too. Mamo has such poor special bulk that, assuming 0 HP and 4 SpDef EVs, Toxapex has over 95% to 2HKO Mamo with Scald after SR. Meanwhile, Life Orb Mamo doesn't even guarantee the OHKO after SR damage. That even assumes no Scald Burn.
 
I expected someone to ask what kind of support it needs--and I will happily tell you.

Just like Rhyperior (although to a much lesser degree), Mamo has a shit defensive typing. It may block Volt Switch, but it doesn't really help that the most common Volt Switcher (other than Koko, who doesn't always run VSwitch) is a hard counter to Mamoswine. So it doesn't really provide a lot of defensive utility.

Second, a very large amount of threatening OU attackers can easily take advantage of it. Most notably, Mega Scizor can easily switch into even Earthquake and scare Mamo away with Bullet Punch, or set up with SDance. There are a quite a lot of other threatening Pokémon you will need solid checks or counters to: (Ash)-Greninja, Keldeo, Kartana, (Mega) Gyarados with its evil 1 speed point difference, and the aforementioned Rotom-W.

You may say that none of these Pokémon (other than Washtom) can safely switch into Mamo. However, Mamo has a hard time switching into the stuff it is meant to counter too. Tapu Koko hits it hard with Dazzling Gleam or even the rare Grass Knot thanks to Mamo's mediocre special bulk. This is especially dangerous since Koko outspeeds Mamoswine. Heatran, one of the more notable targets, can almost outright KO Mamo on the switch with Flash Cannon or Bloom Doom when it's offensive, and even with Thick Fat, a Magma Storm will hurt too. LandoT and Garchomp can just damage it with their own Earthquakes and switch into a check to remove Mamo's last bit of HP. Tapu Bulu doesn't need any explanation honestly.
So Mamo is better suited as a revenge killer of these Pokémon. However, its mediocre speed tier means it will often rely too much on Ice Shard to snipe faster foes, and with proper prediction, this can give a free switch to dangerous sweepers. Well, you did scare the opponent out...
But, honestly, what reason is there to use Mamoswine as your Ice Shard RKer over Weavile, other than being a check to Heatran?

The Toxapex matchup seems quite poor too. Mamo has such poor special bulk that, assuming 0 HP and 4 SpDef EVs, Toxapex has over 95% to 2HKO Mamo with Scald after SR. Meanwhile, Life Orb Mamo doesn't even guarantee the OHKO after SR damage. That even assumes no Scald Burn.
And here's where the problems start. You're treating Mamoswine as if it's intended to counter things, not as a check. Checks can't necessarily switch into things 100% of the time or even a fraction of the time. They're used as something to as the name implies to check something and stop it's advance, not always switch in to it no matter what. The point of Mamo inviting in things like Scizor that turn it into set-up fodder is valid, but that's not exactly uncommon with top mons like Scizor. Also your point of Weavile being a better pick than Mamo is even less valid by your logic considering Weavile has even less switch in opportunities than Mamoswine due to it's non existent bulk, takes rocks hard, and struggles even more against things that would turn either of them into fodder like the aforementioned Scizor.

Also I can only assume you used the "standard" OU set on the calc which is outdated as hell, because pex always runs sp.def nowadays and gets blown away.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 296-351 (97.3 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The burn thing is valid I guess, but that's just one of the risks any mon gets when switching into Pex and it's fuckery. Like I said, you're treating Mamo like mon that's meant to always switch in and counter threats, not as a check meant to pivot in.
 
And here's where the problems start. You're treating Mamoswine as if it's intended to counter things, not as a check. Checks can't necessarily switch into things 100% of the time or even a fraction of the time. They're used as something to as the name implies to check something and stop it's advance, not always switch in to it no matter what. The point of Mamo inviting in things like Scizor that turn it into set-up fodder is valid, but that's not exactly uncommon with top mons like Scizor. Also your point of Weavile being a better pick than Mamo is even less valid by your logic considering Weavile has even less switch in opportunities than Mamoswine due to it's non existent bulk, takes rocks hard, and struggles even more against things that would turn either of them into fodder like the aforementioned Scizor.

Also I can only assume you used the "standard" OU set on the calc which is outdated as hell, because pex always runs sp.def nowadays and gets blown away.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 296-351 (97.3 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The burn thing is valid I guess, but that's just one of the risks any mon gets when switching into Pex and it's fuckery. Like I said, you're treating Mamo like mon that's meant to always switch in and counter threats, not as a check meant to pivot in.
WellI showed that because Mamo can't switch in on a lot of things that it IS in fact better of as a check or revenge killer. And then I started to compare him to Weavile--not as a counter, but as a check to these threats, Weavile can do similar things. However, Weavile can also Pursuit trap things like choice-locked Alakazam, Gengar, and Tapu Lele, while also playing mind games with the threats it forces out with Ice Shard, as it can chip them on the switch with Pursuit too. Weavile is also significantly more difficult to force out, thanks to its blazing speed tier; Mamoswine, on the other hand, sits at no-man's land of base 80. The extra 10 attack can help at some times, and its Ground type helps it check Heatran (but that's also done by LandoT which is on practically every high-ladder team), but it remains largely a more niche choice.

But you all are thinking I solely think Mamoswine is bad. Mamoswine, fir the record, isn't bad. It's just pretty hard to use thanks to a combination of bad defensive typing, mediocre speed, mediocre special bulk, and a bad matchup against very common metagame threats. Although I will assume you're right with your Toxapex calc (never use the mon myself and I usually takenit out with Lando's overkill 145 Attack or a Z-Move), it also gets walled by other common defensive mons like Skarmory, Celesteela, and defensive Mega Scizor (although the first one walls practically any physical attacker in the metagame). Moreover, Mamoswine faces stiff competition from the other Ground-types in the tier: Excadrill, Garchomp and Zygarde. (Lando-T is on nearly any teal regardless so that one doesn't offer much competition.) Excadrill and Garchomp have respectively a higher or equal attack stat, sit at better speed tiers, can also set up Stealth Rock (more reliably) and possess better defensive typings. Zygarde has a lower attack stat, but much more bulk, two good setup moves in Dragon Dance and Coil, and an even stronger priority attack. Mamo has to compete with these guys for a teamslot, and despite its notable niches (terrific offensive typing and lack of a 4x weakness to HP Ice) its low speed and vulnerability to a little too many meta threats limit the amount of teams it can actually fit on without being outclassed by other things.
 
So people have switched the topic from ambipom being bad to Mamoswine being mediocre...atleast its getting better if you want to know my input (which i know you don't) i like mamoswine its one of the many well designed and cool 4th gen pokemon and can be used well in its tier but emphasis on its tier it doesn't fit in OU as much as it does in UU although it can be used in OU i don't doubt just....i like weavile more design wise and battle wise but thats just me to be honest I'm really only posting here because I'm bored
 
Is there anything preventing someone from running a bot farm to play games to manipulate the rankings?
Post #666. Heh.

Also, that would be really tough to do due to weighted stats being a thing, meaning these bots would have to win a bunch of games and get pretty high up, and any person with the expertise to program a bot that can actually stand up to mid-to-high level ladder players in any tier is probably gonna use their knowledge to either get a job in tech or do way, way more shady shit than screwing around on a Pokemon simulator.
 
Can't believe everybody forgot when Tele singlehandedly brought Slowbro to OU in XY smh
Slowbro was a really splashable Pokémon that could act as a glue mon on a lot of teams, checking stuff like Keldeo, some Mega Medicham sets, Talonflame, Alakazam, Lando-T, non-SolarBeam Zard Y, Mega Lopunny and non-ThunderPunch Megagross. The main reason for its severe drop in viability in USUM is the rise of mons like Koko and Bulu who just shit on it, as the other main Regenerator, Tangrowth, can handle those two much better, and the other main bulky water, Toxapex. The advent of Z-moves also allows some of the things that Slowbro was supposed to check to easily remove it.

Mamo isn't nearly as splashable as Slowbro was (as it gives like no defensive synergy) and faces tons of competition from other Ground-type wallbreakers like Excadrill, Garchomp and offensive LandoT, and Ice-types like Kyurem-B and Weavile.
 
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