jeez guys,if a mon roses 2 tiers,or a influental player uses it that doesnt mean it is trash,go watch some of his vids where ambipom puts in a lot of work,it cant really touch steel types (except scizor)but it has the team support,do you think the ppl are stupid using a trash ass mon on high ladder just because of a guy?no they used it because it has a niche in the tier and is decent vs the metagame,but that definetely doesnt make the tier more meme or trash,but more fun to use something else than gliscor and scizor,and the theory that top 100 uu players are trash because they lose 6.v5.1 its wrong,cause aim did beat pif,and some top 10 players,and aim playing in top ladder he would see ambipom many matches,and i dont think ppl would use a "bad mon"" on high ladder just because of some guy
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Data Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Feb @ #263) (Mar @ #696)
- Thread starter Antar
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[Here's a rather candid attempt at satire; enjoy!]
A usage-based tier update thread with vitriolic posts that derail into a circlejerk? Why that narrows it down to every single one of these threads!
Well, regarding the elephant in the room, I would like to go through the other changes that occurred in this glorious update including Doom, which is being used more than I thought so - probably NTS.
For the first part of my post that everyone will overlook, I will begin with an observation that I noticed in the Nu -> Pu changes. I might be off my meds but I swear to God, every single update follows a similar pattern of 3-4 mons dropping:
1) A mon that I didn't expect to drop
2) A mon that ends up ban-worthy or
2.5) top tier threat
3) A mon everyone forgets about ever dropping
Now that might seem too vague to base off my analysis for the NU drops, but, frankly, it's still more damning than half of the predictions I see on these threads. Now onto my 2 cents.
Torkoal is probably the mon I wanted to drop the least. I mean it could have worked as a decent rocks setter. However, I (read: people who actually know how to play Pokemon) felt that it was much too passive as an SR setter. I mean, compared to it, defensive Druddigon looks like a bloody sweeper compared to torkoal. So I can see why it fell off. Probably wouldn't even be good
Dugtrio might end up fulfilling 2.5 of my scientifically calculated inferences if it weren't for Alolan-Dugtrio existing. It's a bit faster I guess but the speed tiers tend to get thinner once you reach Base 110 - also viable mons that reach that speed beat both of them. Besides, you'd be hard-pressed to invent a set for Dugtrio that:
1) Won't infringe on its cousin's territory
2) Doesn't require Arena Trap
3) Is actually good
Who knows, maybe Sub+Toxic sets could take off but that's as far as I can fully comprehend the situation at hand. Maybe someone who actually plays PU can lend a hand.
Smeargle is a web and stealth rock setter. Maybe it'll get around defoggers, maybe it won't. To be honest, it's just slightly better than Leavanny. I admit I have a bit of fondness for Beta PU webs so I might be over-estimating Leavanny but it doesn't really matter since every web setter gets man-handle by any respectable defogger. I mean we're talking about a total of 2 (now) viable setters which all just happen to share a bug typing and an unfortunate quadruple weakness to stealth rocks orfire types Pyroar and Magmortar (the latter of which incidentally 6-0s my early webs teams).
Houndoom didn't drop but I'll talk about it anyway. I mean, all things considered, it's doing pretty damn well. It just fell shy of the quick rises and drops which is a rather monumental feat for a Pokemon that was only out for the last 10 days. Yes, it's called New Toy Syndrome but it's still an interesting observation. Who knows, maybe it'll soften the blow when it finally does drop.
As for the "close-drops", for want of a better term, I find that the trends are going nowhere. I know ChrystalFalchion did an analysis of it already but I have learned to grow weary of people who deliberately misspell "falcon" and "crystal". I also tend to be wary of people who make predictions on the quick drop/rise month without sufficient evidence. I, of course, provide you with no evidence.
Starting from NU, we have 10 of the quick drop spots occupied by some niche PU mons, some really good PU mons, everyone's favourite master blaster Clawitzer, everyone's favourite volatile bear Typhlosion and Omastar. Yes, you read that right, Omastar now holds the prestigious title of third-least used mon in NU.
As for RU, Blastoise moves down, Noivern moves up and all the rest won't make a significant impact. Dhelmise, Quagsire and Drapion can potentially drop (read potentially as never). And while we're at it, let's just casually forget that Mega Abomasnow got under 4% usage. And much like napalm, Goodra looks like a good drop for NU.
Plagiarising UU from Falchion, Mantine is toying with that very fine line of rising to OU and dropping to RU. In other news, Arcanine, Entei, Metagross and Lycanroc could potentially drop based on the raw data if they continue to lose traction in usage. Oh yeah and Mienshao is doing what Mienshao does best amongst its Fighting-type brethren: refusing to go back to RU (In all seriousness, it's a good thing it didn't).
Remember how Sableye was banned from Ou for being too "centralising", it could very well do the exact same thing in UU. Other than that, OU can easily steal Gliscor and some BL mons might move up.
I understand that the drops and rises are serious, but derailing the thread to focus on one particular topic is counter-productive and only leads to more contentions
A usage-based tier update thread with vitriolic posts that derail into a circlejerk? Why that narrows it down to every single one of these threads!
Well, regarding the elephant in the room, I would like to go through the other changes that occurred in this glorious update including Doom, which is being used more than I thought so - probably NTS.
For the first part of my post that everyone will overlook, I will begin with an observation that I noticed in the Nu -> Pu changes. I might be off my meds but I swear to God, every single update follows a similar pattern of 3-4 mons dropping:
1) A mon that I didn't expect to drop
2) A mon that ends up ban-worthy or
2.5) top tier threat
3) A mon everyone forgets about ever dropping
Now that might seem too vague to base off my analysis for the NU drops, but, frankly, it's still more damning than half of the predictions I see on these threads. Now onto my 2 cents.
Torkoal is probably the mon I wanted to drop the least. I mean it could have worked as a decent rocks setter. However, I (read: people who actually know how to play Pokemon) felt that it was much too passive as an SR setter. I mean, compared to it, defensive Druddigon looks like a bloody sweeper compared to torkoal. So I can see why it fell off. Probably wouldn't even be good
Dugtrio might end up fulfilling 2.5 of my scientifically calculated inferences if it weren't for Alolan-Dugtrio existing. It's a bit faster I guess but the speed tiers tend to get thinner once you reach Base 110 - also viable mons that reach that speed beat both of them. Besides, you'd be hard-pressed to invent a set for Dugtrio that:
1) Won't infringe on its cousin's territory
2) Doesn't require Arena Trap
3) Is actually good
Who knows, maybe Sub+Toxic sets could take off but that's as far as I can fully comprehend the situation at hand. Maybe someone who actually plays PU can lend a hand.
Smeargle is a web and stealth rock setter. Maybe it'll get around defoggers, maybe it won't. To be honest, it's just slightly better than Leavanny. I admit I have a bit of fondness for Beta PU webs so I might be over-estimating Leavanny but it doesn't really matter since every web setter gets man-handle by any respectable defogger. I mean we're talking about a total of 2 (now) viable setters which all just happen to share a bug typing and an unfortunate quadruple weakness to stealth rocks or
Houndoom didn't drop but I'll talk about it anyway. I mean, all things considered, it's doing pretty damn well. It just fell shy of the quick rises and drops which is a rather monumental feat for a Pokemon that was only out for the last 10 days. Yes, it's called New Toy Syndrome but it's still an interesting observation. Who knows, maybe it'll soften the blow when it finally does drop.
As for the "close-drops", for want of a better term, I find that the trends are going nowhere. I know ChrystalFalchion did an analysis of it already but I have learned to grow weary of people who deliberately misspell "falcon" and "crystal". I also tend to be wary of people who make predictions on the quick drop/rise month without sufficient evidence. I, of course, provide you with no evidence.
Starting from NU, we have 10 of the quick drop spots occupied by some niche PU mons, some really good PU mons, everyone's favourite master blaster Clawitzer, everyone's favourite volatile bear Typhlosion and Omastar. Yes, you read that right, Omastar now holds the prestigious title of third-least used mon in NU.
As for RU, Blastoise moves down, Noivern moves up and all the rest won't make a significant impact. Dhelmise, Quagsire and Drapion can potentially drop (read potentially as never). And while we're at it, let's just casually forget that Mega Abomasnow got under 4% usage. And much like napalm, Goodra looks like a good drop for NU.
Plagiarising UU from Falchion, Mantine is toying with that very fine line of rising to OU and dropping to RU. In other news, Arcanine, Entei, Metagross and Lycanroc could potentially drop based on the raw data if they continue to lose traction in usage. Oh yeah and Mienshao is doing what Mienshao does best amongst its Fighting-type brethren: refusing to go back to RU (In all seriousness, it's a good thing it didn't).
Remember how Sableye was banned from Ou for being too "centralising", it could very well do the exact same thing in UU. Other than that, OU can easily steal Gliscor and some BL mons might move up.
Regarding the whole ambipom thing, I think the situation got a bit out of hand (but as I said before, this is perfectly normal for these threads). However, I still want to refrain from the topic since everything I could say has been said already
I understand that the drops and rises are serious, but derailing the thread to focus on one particular topic is counter-productive and only leads to more contentions
Clearly the posts in this thread do not represent the views of the UU community as a whole (well I sure as hell hope they don't), but the vitriolic response to this usage-based rise has been shockingly distasteful. I've never seen anything like it.
There are a lot of people in this community, like myself, who are always looking to branch out into a new tier/metagame. Just last week I was commenting about how I was getting bored of OU and that UU is looking pretty exciting. Then I see stuff like this and it raises a huge red flag and makes a reasonable man wonder what the hell these people could possibly be thinking...
There are a lot of people in this community, like myself, who are always looking to branch out into a new tier/metagame. Just last week I was commenting about how I was getting bored of OU and that UU is looking pretty exciting. Then I see stuff like this and it raises a huge red flag and makes a reasonable man wonder what the hell these people could possibly be thinking...
Ambipom was trash in NU too, it didn't really affect the meta ò_ò
It’s pretty rude for a moderator to say they lost brain cells reading people’s post and top of the fact that they are saying creativity is bad for a game like Pokémon where creativity is skill. Really shows why smogon is dieing.
Sorry, but where is your source that smogon is dying (if you link a verlis video, lol)? Also creativity =\= skill, it’s a part of it sure but not the main factor.
Plus since when was spamming something a YouTuber used considered creative lol
It’s not spamming something. It’s showing that an outclasses Pokemon is able to be used. Smogon used to have 20k players back in BW with almost 10k active battles. Now it’s at 8k currently.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
ok time for more month of silvally stuff
Silvally @ Psychium Z
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Block
- Hyper Voice
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
fun sweeper
Silvally @ Psychium Z
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Block
- Hyper Voice
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
fun sweeper
*Yung Dramps presenting his Silvally*:"I call this one: a fun sweeper for you!"
Me:"More like: Belongs in PU"
I'm sorry mate, but Silvally is just... Really disappointing. Lacks the speed to sweep and power to clean with Scarf. At least Silvally-Water is nice in ZU.
Silvally @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Surf
-Defog
-Parting Shot
-Rest
4 Speed to speed creep those dumbasses running 4 SpDef. Not that it'll matter, but bringing in a Wigglytuff on their Parting Shot is deadly.
Me:"More like: Belongs in PU"
I'm sorry mate, but Silvally is just... Really disappointing. Lacks the speed to sweep and power to clean with Scarf. At least Silvally-Water is nice in ZU.
Silvally @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Surf
-Defog
-Parting Shot
-Rest
4 Speed to speed creep those dumbasses running 4 SpDef. Not that it'll matter, but bringing in a Wigglytuff on their Parting Shot is deadly.
Ambipom was C- in NU, don't know why people are still mad that it's gone now
Stupid question, but why didn't Lycanrock Dusk fall down with the measly 1,7% usage in UU? Where is the line again?
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
The bigger issue at hand is should one Youtuber hold so much influence in tiering? Ambipom has a niche in UU because of its power and high speed - it's not top 10 like the usage suggests but then again usage never was a great indicator of viability.
Well to this issue I would say:
Well known users have always had influence on usage stats - for example, people donate to sample teams often in the hope their team will be more explored and used to help newer players. The only thing that's changed is that power has shifted from the traditional Smogon elitists (being elite isn't a bad thing to be clear) to a Youtuber. My main point is there is nothing to be done directly to stop outside influencers if you want to keep Smogon's tiering system based on usage.
But maybe if you really want to make a difference, Smogon as a whole (and including myself) should shed our elitists attitude where we look down and deride new users for using certain Pokemon. Then there doesn't have to be such a big gap between what outsiders want and what traditional Smogon elitists want. After all, aim did say one of the reasons he used Ambipom was because he was so tired of the disrespect people showed to it. If both Smogon was less elitists and newer users were more willing to learn competitive Pokemon, then this cultural shift would solve this bigger issue.
Well to this issue I would say:
Well known users have always had influence on usage stats - for example, people donate to sample teams often in the hope their team will be more explored and used to help newer players. The only thing that's changed is that power has shifted from the traditional Smogon elitists (being elite isn't a bad thing to be clear) to a Youtuber. My main point is there is nothing to be done directly to stop outside influencers if you want to keep Smogon's tiering system based on usage.
But maybe if you really want to make a difference, Smogon as a whole (and including myself) should shed our elitists attitude where we look down and deride new users for using certain Pokemon. Then there doesn't have to be such a big gap between what outsiders want and what traditional Smogon elitists want. After all, aim did say one of the reasons he used Ambipom was because he was so tired of the disrespect people showed to it. If both Smogon was less elitists and newer users were more willing to learn competitive Pokemon, then this cultural shift would solve this bigger issue.
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
Line is 1.7, dusk got 1.756.
Damn, that was close, thanks for your answer.
Anyone wanna get shuckle to ou?
Starting a series called shuckles surging shell smash!
I just need a donation of 80k subs
Starting a series called shuckles surging shell smash!
I just need a donation of 80k subs
I'm pretty impressed you're still answering the Staraptor guy without talking rude unlike the previous posts. Great guy
Totally agree with you on that. It's rather annoying to see "STARAPTOR RULEZ!!!" and "Silvally Month" posts inbeetween the posts I actully want to read.
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I get why people are mad but do people really think this was actual trolling by Pokeaim? It feels like people here are serious when they say he wanted to ruin UU but why would he want to ruin the tier? He plays almost all the tiers so to ruin a tier would be ruining the fun for him as well.
And let's be honest, tiers by usage was always flawed to begin with. Has it been a problem in the past? Yes, Metang rose to RU in 5th gen all because of one guy. Someone being able to raise a Pokemon to a tier it shouldn't be in is nothing new and has shown how flawed usage based tiering can be. But how else are you gonna make tiers for Pokemon? There are simply to many mons to tier them on how good someone thinks they are.
If I were to make a suggestion I would simply say increase the amount of points you need on the ladder in order for the usage to really rise. I'm not an expert on how the ladder works but I just thought I'd try to be productive and give my opinion.
And let's be honest, tiers by usage was always flawed to begin with. Has it been a problem in the past? Yes, Metang rose to RU in 5th gen all because of one guy. Someone being able to raise a Pokemon to a tier it shouldn't be in is nothing new and has shown how flawed usage based tiering can be. But how else are you gonna make tiers for Pokemon? There are simply to many mons to tier them on how good someone thinks they are.
If I were to make a suggestion I would simply say increase the amount of points you need on the ladder in order for the usage to really rise. I'm not an expert on how the ladder works but I just thought I'd try to be productive and give my opinion.
I'll say it one last time:
The problem is not that Ambipom got into UU.
The problem is that he's intending to take actual important mons like Mamoswine out of the tier.
The problem is not that Ambipom got into UU.
The problem is that he's intending to take actual important mons like Mamoswine out of the tier.
To be fair, a lot of natural tier changes take important mons out of the tier.
If he did MamoswineTTT right away, nobody would be complaining about it. Mons rise all the time due to RMTs or similar being posted and then spammed and the TTT series wouldn't be any different if he didn't start it with an unviable meme mon like Ambipom.
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