Resource USM LC Viability Rankings (VR Update @ #249)

Altariel von Sweep

They Who Laugh Last
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Well, I'm going to make a nomination that might be rejected or controversial:

C+ -> B-
s/os to Fille for the idea. Koffing is a decent answer to many dominant threats in the current metagame such as Fighting-types, Spritzee, Snubbull, Snivy and Mudbray, thanks to its bulk, Will-o-Wisp. Set and reasoning can be found below:

Koffing @ Berry Juice
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 36 SpA / 236 SpD / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Thief
- Fire Blast
- Will-O-Wisp


BJ Thief is best set right now. Fire Blast is an option it can carry to deal with Steel-types such as Ferroseed and Pawniard (which in my opinion it's usually best if you have other threats already covered), but it can carry more coverage options such as Thunderbolt for Water- and Flying-types, or Psybeam for Fighting-types. Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attacking Pokémon to check/counter them well. Thief steals the item of the foe, getting an Eviolite to further increase its bulk.

Mienfoo -> all sets get walled
Timburr -> Iron Fist gets walled, must watch out for Guts
Croagunk -> all sets get walled
Snivy -> Leaf Storm 3HKOes at full if min on the first two hits
Spritzee -> must be wary of Psychic, overall walls it
Snubbull -> gets walled and burned
Mudbray -> Heavy Slam is 3HKO and gets burned


Also, I agree on Budew rising, but I think B- is too much. Sure, its typing helps it to set Spikes up in a metagame where Snivy prevails as a hazard remover staple by scaring it out, as well as Fairy-types, and Sleep Powder a Pokémon to take advantage of the switch and set a layer of Spikes, but its a Foongus that can set Spikes, but has no Regenerator, forcing itself to bring Synthesis to keep itself replenished, and having only one attack to use, depending on which it is, it can get walled by Ferroseed (Sludge Bomb), or get easily crippled if it decides to run no Synthesis (I use HP Fire to deal with Ferroseed), as Giga Drain is not a reliable source of recovery. Imo it's a solid C+ rank, but that's all from it.
 
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Yeahhh Koffing really shouldn't move up in my opinion. I've used it a bunch of times with both BJ Theif and evio pain split and it suffers from similar problems that Trubbish has: yes it may resist fighting but it doesn't have the attack stats or movepool to really do anything against the fighting types (Psywave is really the same as a neutral sludge bomb). Also it has really low HP so the bulk is deceiving. It also lets Gastly and Abra in for free most of the time which is really bad.

Like you said Koffing walls all sets of Croagunk, but this is not true at all. If Koffing switches in on NP Croagunk it is toast. +2 Vaccum and Focus Blast will KO Koffing without berry juice coming into play and Fire Blast does less than half. Even if you don't know it is berry juice, Fire Blast can't 2HKO (does 40 max) which means Koffing loses. Guts Timburr also eats Koffing for breakfast (and ofc the times I use Koffing they always have guts lol)

BUT, a really fun set (albeit gimmicky) is Life Orb Koffing with 4 attacks (Sludge, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt / Explosion, HP Grass) which is a decent lure.
 
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Fille

Afk
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LCPL Champion
Yeahhh Koffing really shouldn't move up in my opinion. I've used it a bunch of times with both BJ Theif and evio pain split and it suffers from similar problems that Trubbish has: yes it may resist fighting but it doesn't have the attack stats or movepool to really do anything against the fighting types (Psywave is really the same as a neutral sludge bomb). Also it has really low HP so the bulk is deceiving. It also lets Gastly and Abra in for free most of the time which is really bad.

Like you said Koffing walls all sets of Croagunk, but this is not true at all. If Koffing switches in on NP Croagunk it is toast. +2 Vaccum and Focus Blast will KO Koffing without berry juice coming into play and Fire Blast does less than half. Even if you don't know it is berry juice, Fire Blast can't 2HKO (does 40 max) which means Koffing loses.

BUT, a really fun set (albeit gimmicky) is Life Orb Koffing with 4 attacks (Sludge, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt / Explosion, HP Grass) which is a decent lure.
Ok so first of all, the Evio Pain split set is still as bad as ever so not going to comment on that one. The BJ Thief one does, however, not suffer from similar problems as Trubbish. The standard Trubbish sets lacks the bulk to do anything but Bjuice Cycling, while Bjuice Koffing thrives from just that. It has the actual bulk to viably actually use random eviolites stolen from fighting types. After said eviolite is stolen, Koffing has the bulk to tank anything a Timburr/Mienfoo throws at it, and Iron Fist Timburrs will drop to 2 sludge bombs, as will standard Mienfoo spreads. Guts BU will still only be 3hkod, but again what can it do against a Koffing? When it comes to Croagunks, it really all comes down to your coverage move of choice. Your statement that NP Craogunk toasts it though depends on your choice of coverage move, and if they are indeed able to deduct the set. Realistically though, Croagunks are mainly used as fighting switch-ins, so really the cahnces of it being already knocked is pretty huge. Your way of dealing with Koffing using Croagunk is why I prefer Psybeam though for sure. As for Gastly, the only move it wants to come in on is Sludge Bomb, as everything else is a 2hko and if the potential of Thief stealing a Bjuice, while normal Gastly sets can't really ohko Koffing. Abra comes in to have it's sash broken so I don't get this one either tbh, Abra checks it fine ye but that goes for like 80% of the meta?

LO sounds bad but fun will give that a shot. Overall support Koffing rising, can be beaten by Croagunk on paper but in practice it rarely ever loses that matchup from my experience.
 
I really don't think Psybeam is worth it at all on Koffing since it hits...literally only Croagunk and maybe the odd water / poison type. It leaves it open for a lot of other threats, including some decent damage on Foongus, Ferroseed, and Magnemite.

Also I think you are forgetting that many of the things Koffing checks (like fighting types) carry Knock Off, which hits really hard with berry juice and completely removes the healing you get. Then you need to take a turn to steal the eviolite back (which does 0 damage to said fighting type) and you still haven't recovered.

For example, If Koffing switched in on Knock Off:
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That is a lot of health Koffing isn't getting back. Now, you can burn Timburr and hope it isn't Guts, or steal with thief, or just use sludge bomb. The problem is 12 Speed Timburr out speeds it and smacks it with:
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Ice Punch vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now Koffing is at 22% MAX (that is two lowest rolls) with stealth rock (no item) with a burned Timburr. Next turn:

196+ Atk Iron Fist burned Timburr Ice Punch vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO

That is a dead Koffing. Sure, Timburr is burned and easier to deal with, but that is no way a counter.
 
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Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion
I really don't think Psybeam is worth it at all on Koffing since it hits...literally only Croagunk and maybe the odd water / poison type. It leaves it open for a lot of other threats, including some decent damage on Foongus, Ferroseed, and Magnemite.

Also I think you are forgetting that many of the things Koffing checks (like fighting types) carry Knock Off, which hits really hard with berry juice and completely removes the healing you get. Then you need to take a turn to steal the eviolite back (which does 0 damage to said fighting type) and you still haven't recovered.

For example, If Koffing switched in on Knock Off:
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That is a lot of health Koffing isn't getting back. Now, you can burn Timburr and hope it isn't Guts, or steal with thief, or just use sludge bomb. The problem is 12 Speed Timburr out speeds it and smacks it with:
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Ice Punch vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now Koffing is at 22% MAX (that is two lowest rolls) with stealth rock (no item) with a burned Timburr. Next turn:

196+ Atk Iron Fist burned Timburr Ice Punch vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO

That is a dead Koffing. Sure, Timburr is burned and easier to deal with, but that is no way a counter.
Psybeam is better if you don't have a STAB at all, like running Psybeam+Fblast or Tbolt. It's a niche move, no doubt, but by far not a bad one. Koffing is, by the way, not meant to stay in on any mons forever. I mean if you do you'll end up losing to shit like Mudbray as well. It's a defensive pivot. The whole idea is taht you cripple a mon enough for a different mon (Like Mienfoo for example, or Snivy) to easily be able to come in and take advantage of or kill whatever mon is in. Yes, coming in on a knock off from Timburr is risky, but getting off a WoW on an Iron Fist Timburr is more than enough for Mienfoo to easily 1v1 it. Same goes for mons like Mudbray. Koffing isn't meant to deal with all these threats alone.
 
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Let's examine some of those claims:

"Walls mienfoo" :

On the switch in let's say it's now at 12hp
252+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If they don't decide to u-turn the fuck out (aka what will happen 90% of the time) then let's take off 6 more hp to leave us at 6hp on koffing while you burn the mienfoo(if not miss)
252+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 5-7 (23.8 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk burned Mienfoo Knock Off vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 2-3 (9.5 - 14.2%) -- possible 7HKO
Possible damage amounts: (2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)

Now this is a 2hko while you do 35 with sludge?


"Walls timburr" :

196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)

196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Ice Punch vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)

196+ Atk Iron Fist burned Timburr Ice Punch vs. 36 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 3-4 (14.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
Possible damage amounts: (3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4)

Same story, you switch in and cripple these pokemon at best.

"Walls croagunk"

+4 188+ SpA Croagunk Focus Blast vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Koffing: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25)

Snivy - You mentioned it yourself but I just want to highlight this to everyone else. To live, koffing needs the 7, the 13 and no rocks/prior chip.

240 SpA Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)

+2 240 SpA Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 36 HP / 236 SpD Koffing: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
 
I'm so, so, sorry...

...but I think Alolan Sandshrew is due for a rise. Okay so, as I am me, I do realize that bringing up a nomination for my favorite Pokemon may be taken with a grain of salt. However, I would like to request you refrain from assuming I'm biased, as although the reason I began to use Alolan Sandshrew is because I love it, upon actually using it on ladder and in scrims against consistent tour players (thanks Shrug and inf and everyone else who tested with me), I believe I have found that it deserves B- AND NO MORE. To start, let's define Alolan Sandshrew's role (as a note I will mainly focus on the Choice Scarf set as that is the set I believe has actually gotten better in the most recent meta, but keep in mind that it has an alternate hail sweeper set that's still usable). AShrew is a revenge killer, cleaner, and general hard hitting scarfer. In the current meta, I feel full set up sweepers are on a slight decline, while fast hard hitting sweepers with no passive set up are on the rise, just look at the huge popularity Abra, Gastly, Wingull, Snivy, Torchic, Doduo, Elekid, Taillow and even Ponyta. And in a meta like this, an Ice-type revenge killer, especially one with multihit attacks (for Abra) can really thrive. All of the Pokemon listed, bar Torchic and Ponyta (although it speed-ties and KOs the former with Earthquake if it is +1 and non-Eviolite variants of the latter have a chance to be KOed if they don't already have +1 Speed) are KOed by 4 hits of Icicle Spear, and many are KOed with minimal chip and 3 or even in cases 2 hits. This means that if played with the correct teammates, Alolan Sandshrew can easily force out hard hitters and give its team a lot of room to make aggressive doubles, which can be instrumental in beating offensive and more balanced teams.

As a cleaner, AShrew really can tear through weakened teams. Once Timburr, Groagunk, and Water-types with super effective covergae have been fully removed and the rest of its checks have been somewhat weakened, AShrew is free to clean through your opponent's team. Evioliteless Mienfoo has a huge chance to be 2HKOed by Icicle Spear or Iron head. Evioliteless Ponyta is always 2HKOed by Earthquake and is OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Most common Pokemon are hit hard by one of AShrew's attacks and now that it has Knock Of, those who aren't fear switching in as if they do they can be crippled in the late game. It is also a very good Rapid Spin user as it can force certain Pokemon out and safely Rapid Spin as neither Gastly nor Pumpkaboo can safely switch in to spinblock as they fear Icicle Spear.

Obviously though, Sandshrew has some major faults, namely that every team has some sort of switch in o it just by the process of building. Water- and Fighting-types, easily two of the most common types on LC teams directly counter AShrew. Staryu, Timburr, Mienfoo (mostly), Shellder, and Slowpoke are all common Pokemon that easily switch into Sandshrew. It also suffers from an unfortunate weakness to one of the most common priority types. The aforementioned Timburr and Croagunk can easily switch in and completely force AShrew out with Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave respectively, leaving AShrew's team at a momentum disadvantage most of the time. However, despite its downsides I still thinks it deserves B-

So to evaluate why I believe AShrew fits in, let's take a few examples from C+ and a few from B-. To start let's look at Pikipek. Pikipek should be in a similar boat to AShrew: it has some p good coverage to beat common fast attackers, a very good ability for wallbreaking, and a surprisingly nice movepool. However it is outlcassed as a fast wallbreaker by Doduo and Scarf Rufflet, the former because it is faster and slightly more powerful, and the latter because Rufflet TEARS THROUGH SQUADS. But anyways Alolan Sandshrew performs its role as a multihit, hazard clearing, without much contention bar Scarf Shellder, but Shellder has slightly less Attack, a much worse type, and lacks Knock Off as an alternate to Rapid Spin. So basically AShrew is better in this meta so it deserves a better tier than Pikipek. Another C+ Pokemon I can compare is Amaura. Just to start since its nom was recently rejected from leaving C+ I feel it's a good example of a C+ mon. Amaura is a hard hitter that uses 1 of 2 abilities and a Choice Scarf to wallbreak. However, its Special Attack stat isn't great and it is incredibly weak to Fighting-, Steel-, and Water-types despite its coverage on the latter two. It also lacks a good alternate STAB move, as Ancient Power isn't great. Anyways I feel AShrew functions better as a wallbreaker than Amaura, plus it has an extra role as a hazard or item remover. Conclusion: AShrew is better than C+

Snover is a Pokemon in B- that's pretty easy to compare to. It likes to fire off Blizzard and Giga Drain to tear holes in teams, also using Snow Warning to wear down its checks and break the Sturdy of Onix, Dwebble, etc. It also has a second pretty good set that pairs well with AShrew which I find kind of fun. However it is also held back heavily by its weaknesses, namely Steel- and Fighting-types. I feel AShrew is just as good as Snover, if not slightly better. I couldn't really find another B- mon to compare AShrew too, but it is probably at least as good as Archen, so i guess there's my 2nd point.

All in all, AShrew fits in well with B- because of its wallbreaking prowess, its specific role being good in this meta, and its ability to make good use of Rapid Spin and Knock Off for team utility, as well as it being (in my opinion) better than everything in C+; ALOLAN SANDSHREW FOR B-
 
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Merritt

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Let's talk C ranks and spring winter cleaning.

Bulbasaur C+ -> C-
Bulbasaur is a Pokemon whose niche is pretty clear after Sun left us, namely a Z-Celebrate sweeper. I went and actually tried it out on two different kinds of teams, one which was built around supporting a Bulbasaur sweep through trapping and Memento support and a second where Bulbasaur was just another sweeper in order to break for a teammate or clean lategame depending on needs. On both teams, Bulbasaur suffered two issues, one being actually getting to the point where it could do its job (including the times Sleep Powder missed when running that over HP Fire), as Saur's bulk is underwhelming both before and after it sets up, and the second being the constant question of "why aren't I using a stronger or better setup sweeper?" Bulbasaur ends up in this limbo space where it seems good enough on paper, but in practice ends up being underwhelming at best. There was maybe one game out of a couple dozen where I honestly felt that Bulbasaur was the perfect sweeper to have for my opponent, and that's incredibly underwhelming for a C+ mon.

That being said, Bulbasaur isn't deserving of being unranked, it's still a fairly competent sweeper (particularly if your Sleep Powder doesn't miss). It simply requires more team support than its payoff offers to be in C+ or even C.

Buneary C+ -> C
Buneary is a Pokemon who seems to have several things going for it on paper, such as Healing Wish support and a +3 Attack move alongside Baton Pass all wrapped up in a 19 speed bundle of joy. These roles, however, aren't particularly valuable currently and honestly haven't been for a good while. As a sweeper and passer Buneary suffers from the popularity of 19 speed pokemon, constantly risking speed ties it can't really afford with its low bulk when holding Normalium Z. Timburr and scarf Pokemon's popularity also continues to be a thorn in Buneary's side, which is why I'd honestly say that the Normalium Z set is the worse of Buneary's options. The set that utilizes Healing Wish alongside Buneary's good speed tier is significantly more effective, but remains difficult to justify on teams - if the support is helpful or needed that's great and Buneary is a viable choice, but the role itself isn't equal to the other C+ mons.

Darumaka C -> C-
Darumaka remains a strong wallbreaker but its reliance on a Choice Scarf haunts it alongside Hustle accuracy (there's few things worse than missing U-turn), but this isn't anything new. What really justifies Darumaka moving down is the revitalization of Ponyta and the rise of Torchic, who not only compete with Darumaka for a slot on teams, but in the case of Ponyta also offers another Pokemon who Darumaka has to pivot around carefully. Onix remains as relevant as ever as well, and Mudbray too limit Darumaka's options midgame, while its weakness to Stealth Rock and the Flare Blitz recoil wear it down faster than is reasonably sustainable. Darumaka is a niche choice for teams that require an obscenely strong Fire type wallbreaker and so should have a ranking that reflects that at C-.

Goldeen C -> C-
Goldeen has been hanging around C quite literally all generation and was ranked at C because Chinchou and Magnemite were fairly good then and Goldeen is a fantastic counter who provides decent team support. Magnemite and Chinchou are now less present and useful and so Goldeen should be moved down to reflect their lesser presence in the meta. It's still an option if you ever think to yourself that you need Knock Off support from an Electric counter, but it's definitely not good.

Spinarak C-> C-
I know this just moved down and I'm not exactly passionate about it moving down further, but Spinarak remains a Not Good Pokemon who competes heavily with Dewpider in the role of bulky webs setter. Toxic Spikes are neat and all, but are still a gimmick that doesn't really justify being in C and should probably move down to C-.

Cubchoo C- -> UR
Cubchoo is a perfectly acceptable choice on Hail teams if you want a Hail sweeper. The thing is, being a Hail sweeper isn't a valuable or splashable role in the current meta. It's an incredibly niche choice which if we still had a D rank would probably deserve to go there, but we don't so it should be unranked.

Fletchling C- -> UR
When we were younger, seeing Fletchling always brightened up my day. We would walk around and Fletchling would use Acrobatics with +1 priority on the buzzing Yanma and Tangela. Even once everybody started carrying around Rock and Electric types, Fletchling was still there for me and we were happy.

It was all so sudden. After the incident Fletchling couldn't manage to use Acrobatics with +1 priority all the time, only sometimes. We started losing games. I looked back with nostalgia on those halcyon days when Fletchling could pull off a sweep with nearly no HP left.

So I strayed. The lure of victory called me away, and I reasoned that Fletchling would never know. Vullaby, Doduo, Wingull. All fresh and exciting. They offered me glimpses of victory I hadn't seen in years, not since before Fletchling's incident. I felt guilty at first, but it was so good to use these good Pokemon. It reminded me of the good days with Fletchling. I couldn't stop.

I think, deep down, Fletchling knew. Maybe not at first, but Fletchling could probably sense that using Fletchling felt like more of a chore than a joy. I know Fletchling remained - remains faithful, but I am not. When I want victory, I go to other Pokemon, not Fletchling. And so it all ends with this. Where once people called for Fletchling to be ascended to the heavens as too good for this world, now I say to you to condemn it to the shadow realm as a largely unviable gimmick.

I'm sorry Fletchling. I loved you, once.

Next time on cleaning: probably b/b- idk
 
Hello. I know this seems really stupid, but I'm nomming Wimpod to move up from Unranked to C Rank
He's a great spikes setter, and his Leech Life and Waterfall attacks do crazy damage. He also lets you practically get up spikes and then get a free baton pass up with his Wimp Out.
Wimp.png
Here's the set I've been running-

Wimpod @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wimp Out
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Leech Life
- Waterfall
- Spikes

Gets up spikes vs almost the whole tier (minus fake out Meowth and Natu) and can taunt all opposing rockers or spikers. Leech Life can be used for some pretty good damage, and waterfall flinches are a blessing when they happen. Obviously, he doesn't learn first impression, but he's actually a great spiker and can be used to counter Onixes with SR.

Hope you consider this, and I already know I'm about to get a couple of responses completely disagreeing with me, which is completely cool. Wimpod is, in my opinion, better than most of the other C ranks at the moment, so I think he should move up there.
 

Merritt

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Hello. I know this seems really stupid, but I'm nomming Wimpod to move up from Unranked to C Rank
He's a great spikes setter, and his Leech Life and Waterfall attacks do crazy damage. He also lets you practically get up spikes and then get a free baton pass up with his Wimp Out.
View attachment 100085
Here's the set I've been running-

Wimpod @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wimp Out
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Leech Life
- Waterfall
- Spikes

Gets up spikes vs almost the whole tier (minus fake out Meowth and Natu) and can taunt all opposing rockers or spikers. Leech Life can be used for some pretty good damage, and waterfall flinches are a blessing when they happen. Obviously, he doesn't learn first impression, but he's actually a great spiker and can be used to counter Onixes with SR.

Hope you consider this, and I already know I'm about to get a couple of responses completely disagreeing with me, which is completely cool. Wimpod is, in my opinion, better than most of the other C ranks at the moment, so I think he should move up there.
Sorry, I'm going to completely disagree with this.

You state that Wimpod is doing "crazy damage" but that's kind of bizarre. Maybe against Pokemon weak to Bug and Water, but Wimpod is weak as all hell - 35 Base Attack using 80 BP moves is not particularly strong. It can do some damage, certainly, but calling it "crazy" damage is definitely inaccurate. A set using Scald is honestly better imo because Wimpod's doing minimal damage either way and a 30% chance to burn is a hell of a lot more useful than a 20% chance to flinch most of the time.

Wimpod is really good at setting up a single layer of spikes and then doing very little for most of the rest of the match. Wimp Out basically means that Wimpod is a suicide lead that almost-but-doesn't-quite die after setting up the hazards. What this generally means is that Wimpod is good at getting up a (usually single) layer of Spikes, maybe coming in later and setting up one more or doing a small hit, and then dying. The thing is, hazard removal is certainly not uncommon in LC which means that Wimpod can sometimes be almost useless, and even when the opponent isn't using anything that can remove hazards I still wouldn't say that trading a slot for a layer or two of spikes is a good deal.

You also mention that Wimpod can be used to anti-lead SR Onix. The thing is, you're forced into a 50/50 on turn 1, where if you taunt and they SR now you can get a layer of spikes up and they don't have rocks up but if you taunt and they rock blast Wimpod's just dead and now you're down 5-6 in exchange for taunting Onix. Woo-hoo.

Wimpod is not a good Pokemon particularly when you consider that there are Spikers available who don't just kinda die after getting a layer or two up and can contribute in other ways. Ferroseed, Budew, even Trubbish all fulfill valuable roles beyond "suicide spiker" that Wimpod just doesn't.

In short, Wimpod is a mediocre Pokemon at fulfilling a role that isn't particularly good in the current meta and honestly kinda hasn't been since last gen and in my opinion definitely should not rise.
 

churine

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gonna echo merritt here since i was already writing this up,
wimpod may be a fast spiker and taunter, but thats all it has. all of its other stats are extremely bad which makes it really easy to activate wimp out. sure, wimp out can let another pokemon switch in for free, but it also impedes with wimpod's ability to set up spikes, and with wimpod's bad bulk, it essentially makes it so that wimpod can only get one layer of spikes off before wimp out activates, forcing it out of the field until it can safely switch in. switching wimpod in is hard because of its crappy bulk and stealth rock weakness, which essentially means it can only switch in after a teammate is ko'd, and sometimes only when rocks are cleared, which is also enough time for the opponent to clear the spikes.
wimpod is extremely one-dimensional and can be easily countered on team preview, such as the opponent leading with a faster pokemon like staryu or choice scarf pokemon to not even let wimpod get a layer of spikes up. not to mention, hazard removers have become more common with the rise of snivy, which just undermine wimpod's work of setting spikes up.
using wimpod just isn't worth it when you have an ability that prevents you from doing what is supposed to be your job and overall terrible stats, especially when there's other spikers that can do so much more like dwebble, who essentially has 3 lives thanks to sturdyjuice, or ferroseed, who provides much more utility than wimpod with a useful set of resistances and moves like knock and twave.
 

Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
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Have to agree with merritt,Wimpod WAS ranked before on SM(http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-lc-viability-rankings-v2.3609771/page-4 last post shows it being UR),Wimpod sucks for having a bad defensive typing,horrible movepool and being outclassed in general,it just suffers to do any damage on Vullaby(one of the most common deffogers),cant really touch Staryu while Staryu spins of until Wimp dies(or choose another attack and gets dead by any staryu attacks),it also suffers from speed tie'ing with Onix which destroys it with rock blast(while you have to count on flinching until death[4 times on BJ,WA destroys you easily] if you are gonna waterfall it)(as said before)
There are plenty of good Spikers but Wimpod isn't really one of them,plus most of them have a good way to get spikes up(Dwebble wins vs Vulla{and has 3 lives},ferro is Fat af+Typing annoys spinners,Chesp takes off spinners easily,etc)
 

Scottie

formerly Osh
is a Tiering Contributoris a Two-Time Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Okay I'm gonna go back in to TRY and redeem myself a little here. Apologies for any grammar errors I may have made, I can't say I'm going to be reading over this.

So on the topic of Gastly I just want to start off by saying I do not think this Mon is bad at all but I just don't think it deserves to be this high.

So before I deleted my post I mentioned and emphasised heavily that Gastly is very susceptible to getting trapped and is obviously Gastlys biggest weakness. It hinders its performance to wall break properly as you have these huge obstacles in the way. A good player might hp fight or sub on the pawn but then a smart player never goes hard pawn unless he is in an absolute cert position to win the game anyway. All the pawn user has to do is make a decent midground let's just say for example Gastly is on spritz, the pawn user goes onix as midground. If the Gastly subs then it's forced to switch, and if it sludges and let's just say it does land a poison, s ball kills and then it's pursuit trapped the following turn, yes the onix kill can be big but just like I mentioned in my other post, against a pawn player, Gastly is only getting 1kill MAX.

And all this said that's only on pawn. GrimerA is able to COMPLETELY shut down Gastly making it absolutely worthless in that matchup. Yes GrimerA is worse now, but it still exists.

So I think I've mentioned plenty about trapping, let's move on.

What actually encourages one to choose Gastly when teambuding? Unless you're building around it. I don't see what purpose it serves. Someone mentioned its good to have vs the spritzee snivy matchup that has been running around lately which is a fair point but other than this why would I actually choose Gastly in my team? There is one certain type of archetype that does carry Gastly on it regularly being webs. Even on webs I'm always choosing pumpkin or frillish as my spinblocker because they are way way more reliable at doing their JOB. Not even on webs where Gastly can actually flourish am I choosing it. If you're trying to prevent spin and star hydros well then star can spin freely at a later time in the game and that's absolutely terrible for any webs user for this situation to occur . Now to be honest webs isn't as great as it was in sumo now with snivy getting defog but still it's something that's always really bothered me seeing Gastly as peoples spinblocker.

Like I mentioned at the start I don't think it's at all BAD but let's compare to other A+ mons. Starting with Foongus. Excellent Mon. I know EXACTLY what I'm getting out of it. Very reliable Mon at checking the ever so common fights, opposing star, chinch, phish, snivy, soft check to onix, gunk etc. The Mon walls literally half the tier and gets a fantastic ability and pairing with mienfoo makes this Mon that much better. Fantastic Mon deserves A+. Onix. Straight and simple. Best bird check in the tier and the best rocker, A+ deserved. Snivy. With the introduction of defog snivy is the best form of hazard control In the tier, A+ deserved. Torchic. Absolute nuisance to play against I think anyone can relate here. A+ deserved. Pawniard. One of my favourite mons in the tier right now. Arguably best scarfer and ironically shits on the Mon I am currently discussing. All and all, these mons have all got something going for them. You know exactly what you are getting out of them and they actually do their job extremely well. Unlike our ghost friend. The other A+ mons don't have too many hinders and are consistent at doing what they are set out to do. With all these obstacles in Gastlys way I honestly can't stress enough how pawn and GrimerA have an effect on this Mon.

I think some people were confused as to what I mentioned on snivy so I'll clarify. With the introduction of defog in snivys arsenal, it makes it the best fogger in the tier further enhancing the usage of Pawniard as Pawniard can take advantage of defog with defiant. With Pawniard being more common with scarf pawn being a typical set, it worsens Gastlys capabilities.

Another problem I've honestly had with Gastly is just how hard is to fit on certain teams. Like, I've honestly tried using this Mon many times because I believe it can do well assuming matchup is okay but I've just found it hard to fit in. I'd consider it a let's say "waste of space". Once I was finished making the team that I had built around Gastly. I would almost always see myself replacing it every time because I wanted something else that could actually pursue a roll. I could just never understand what this Mon actually ever accomplished for me and maybe its just a personal problem but that's fine, I'm just here to express my opinion.
I won't ramble on much longer because at this point I would only be dragging it out but I hope this time I cleared some stuff up but if not then fuck it.:fukyu:
 

jake

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i'm a gastly fanboy so naturally i disagree with you but here are my thoughts

1 - yeah gastly gets trapped by grime. however, grimer is knocked / trapped / chipped easily enough that it's not 100% over for gastly just because it's on the other team. plus, it's the -only- hard counter to gastly in the tier, which is an abusable fact.

2 - what purpose does it serve? you're looking too hard into this. it's a nuke, something that's fast and strong and can break teams. it's got three immunities and a handful of great resistances (notably a 4x uturn and fairy resistance), which help it a ton with breaking balance teams. it's versatile enough in its moveset that you can customize it to fit your team's needs. i can run hex bj wisp. i can run scarf. i can run z-thunder. i can run z-dazzling gleam. i can run standard lo. i can run sub hp fight. i can run dbond. i can run sucker. i can run any coverage combo of stabs / thunderbolt / dazzling gleam / hidden power / psychic. i could run hypnosis if i wanted. man, i could run subdisable and fuck with mienfoos that run only knock to hit gas.

yea, it doesn't beat spinners as well as the fat ghosts. but the fat ghosts contribute 0 to a team's offensive capabilities, too. trying to shoehorn it into the role of "webs spinblock" is doing it a disservice and is also just willfully ignoring gastly's positive bits for its negative ones.

3 - i feel like the issue regarding "it doesn't do its job as well as the other A+s" is that you've incorrectly determined its role on any given team. yea it'll die if you try to spinblock with it all the time. i don't use onix as my water resist despite the fact that it can live two water-type attacks.

4 - hp fight exists. gastly can adapt to pawniard and other sets become stronger as a result -- this is how metas develop cooler and more interesting teams. i actually love it when the meta develops staple answers to flexible pokemon, because now i can run wisp gastly and use pawniard as shellder setup bait. or i can run dbond gastly and get grimer to kill itself for a snivy or abra in the back. or how i ran sucker punch gastly a couple of months ago on some high-octane offense so i could always lure and break the everpresent abra's sash for a scarfer.

5 - sounds like gastly just isn't a pokemon for you, honest. you probably like dudes that can take a hit and promote reactive play with low risk, not extremely offensive pokemon that promote proactive play with high risk (not saying that either is better than the other; there are just some pokes that fit each category).

i'd personally prefer it to stay a+ but i'd be down to discuss a drop to a. absolutely no lower though
 

SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
Torchic > S (or lc uber)
I know it sounds extreme, but I vehemently agree with Torchic moving up. The thing about torchic is that TorchPass is deceptively difficult to use well. However, the ones who do master it set the metagame. LC has and always will be a metagame about speed. Because of this Torchic is a metagame defining mon.

Snivy > S
Defog just makes Snivy ridiculously splashable. It can run different sets, even with a limited movepool.

Croagunk > A-/B+
Gunk is more of a change of pace mon. It's different, but it isn't necessarily better. 4x weak to psychic and a low speed tier, coupled with middling bulk, makes gunk not all that threatening. It loses 1v1 to some of the threats its supposed to check. In addition, with Sprit running psychic, it can't even truly check sprit.

also unban cutiefly. and i know this isn't the place for it. but a lot of these boosts to other mons, and omnipresent need to a fighting check, as well as the metagame being one of voltturn, means that cutiefly isn't as great as everyone thinks. it'd definitely be a s-rank, but I think it's time to at least test it.
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
i should probably comment on other noms before making one of my own but w/e, i nom chinchou down to B+. it just doesn't belong in the same rank as snubbull, one of the best mons to slap on an offensive team as it does a great job of checking stuff like foo and vull, and grimer-a, one of the very few answers to abra. the only thing chinchou really is an answer against is wingull, and while wingull is a good mon and all i really don't think its omnipotent enough to warrant chou being super usable.

chou was definitely good in ORAS as a fletch check. similar to archen, however, chou is now a bird check that doesn't actually check birds. the only time chou 100% checks doduo is if the chou is scarf and the doduo isn't, which is a pretty big 50/50 to take, especially because if you guess the set wrong your chou is getting knocked of or chunked 60% from return, nevermind the fact that chinchou can only switch in if the move doduo is clicking is brave bird. vullaby (which not even bj variants are ohkoed by a chou's tbolt lol) also just knocks off chinchou, which wouldn't be such a big deal if chou didn't rely on its item so much. once it gets hit by knock off, whether its scarf or bj, its job is to get off like one attack before dying. it's also just really weak, so there's a whole ton of mons that completely wall it.

you can say that chou is just not an offensive mon, but the meta nowadays is so ridiculously fast and punishes slower, bulkier mons more and more; just look what's happening to grimer-a. chinchou has to pick whether to run an offensive scarf set or a defensive bj set, but the former is too weak to OHKO anything notable before getting OHKOed back, and the latter just immediately becomes more or less dead weight if there is a diglett on the opposing team.

it's not bad, obviously, the way rufflet or carvanha or elekid or anything else in B+ isn't bad, but the thing with all those mons is that you generally don't build with them, you build around them. if you're using chinchou, i feel like you need to use it in a voltturn or hazard stack archetype or else you'll just be underwhelmed. the mons in A- are both (why is this rank so small tf) SUPER splashable and can fit onto basically any team, but chinchou either lags behind offensive teams or is just getting crushed in a defensive team because defensive teams are becoming harder and harder to use lately, what with stuff like torchic running around. what makes A-rank mons A rank is their ability to either check or counter top-tier threats, gain momentum, or help their team overall. some people argue that chinchou can take back momentum, but it's just so weak that i'm not seeing it. evio mudbray literally isn't even 2HKOed by scald, and while i know nobody called chinchou a mudbray check, it's still pretty pathetic for a mon dealing stab se damage. it could theoretically help its team out by providing a slow volt switch, but for reasons said before (gets completely screwed by dig, gets knocked off very easily, can't beat doduo) the bj set is oftentimes worse than the scarf set except in some very specific matchups.

it's not unusable, i just think the meta is very unkind to it rn. i'm terrible at writing conclusions. thanks for coming to my ted talk
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
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Can riolu be bumped up? it really doesn't deserve its spot in C+ and could easily be B or even B+. As most people know, LC is a tier that is entirely dictated by Speed, be it super fast cleaners like Elekid, Diglett, or Wingull, Scarfers like Mienfoo / Chinchou / Magnemite, or Weak Armor mons like Kabuto / Onix / Vullaby, everything typically gets to be super fast with what I'd say the average speed tier of around 19, comparatively. Riolu just completely ignores all that Speed bullshit with its Prankster Copycat. This in turn with a voltturn esque meta (with mainstays like Mienfoo / Vullaby / Diglett) mean that Riolu fits perfectly in being able to maintain and transition momentum. Slow U-turns from things like Bulky Mienfoo into a fast U-turn into Riolu, especially when paired with trapping is insane. As a standalone mon Riolu on paper is garbage, it offers nothing of note compared to Mienfoo / TImburr / Croagunk / Scraggy, but in actual play Riolu is amazing as you usually pair it with another Fighting type to help break down things like Mareanie, Foongus, Sppritzee, Snubbull, etc. You guys seriously underestimate Riolu, as in a last slot scenario it can provide limitless options with Copycat, from copycatting Stealth Rock, to setting up against weak armor Onix after its acquired all the boosts (something that can potentially run house on a lot of weakened teams) to outright cleaning up against everything after a Knock Off or two.

One replay to showcase Riolu's cleaning potential that is compared with no other Fighting type
One of the only other replays I have on this alt, riolu puts in a little work allowing it to clean. Pawniard is troublesome bc you can't copycat without it not affecting it and getting recoil damage, but it doesn't matter bc Riolu isn't a pivot and shouldn't be treated as such

i can respond more if people have like specific questions or something but honestly riolu is so good, still works even against top of the ladder and big players, and is hardly deserving of being in the same tier as Pikipek, Venipede, and Hippopotas. Its easily home in B tier with things like Frillish and Bunnelby but I would even put it in B+ with Slowpoke and Scraggy and Rufflet.
 

Fiend

someguy
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Really quick corollary of sorts: this vr has an emphasis on consistency and effectiveness in tandem with splash-ability (haven't looked at other vrs, so might just be how it is now!). With this in mind, Riolu doesn't have much room to climb. Riolu really sucks at being splashable, which leaves it at B. And I think it is far to say that consistency for Riolu isn't exactly proven. As for effectiveness, it really wants to be part of fight spam which gives it direct competition against some of the best mons in the tier. That being said, I do think it is underrated and should be ranked higher.

I think Riolu is a little fucked in regards to competition, and being limited to essentially fight spam or high-octane offense with the likes of knock Snivy and Digett or something, and the prankster nerf makes Riolu pretty shitty against Vullaby. I've been playing with it and while the teams I've been using have been highly suspect, it just doesn't work without specific support. Foongus and Mini-Pex just live too long with their stupid regen, and punish you since they aren't hit hard enough that they are pressured; Riolu can barely get past Spritzee, and you need to outplay Snubbull if you lack the Z. For the record, I think Eviolite Riolu is a bit worse than Z move as well, and the replays don't mean much to me considering the opposition.

I have gripes with a lot of the B ranks and I'm just too fucking busy to sort the mess. Riolu is a bit better than anything in B- (I like Cottonee a lot though!), but almost everything in mid B is better than it (or ranked too high, looking at you Frillish, Surskit, and--arguably--Oma). It would be either the best B- mon, or the worst B mon, but Riolu should move up.

The direct comparison to consider is Panda vs Riolu, and how we want them to compare. I think Riolu is better, but I also like Pancham a lot, so I lean towards mid B for Riolu's new rank.
 
Really quick corollary of sorts: this vr has an emphasis on consistency and effectiveness in tandem with splash-ability (haven't looked at other vrs, so might just be how it is now!). With this in mind, Riolu doesn't have much room to climb. Riolu really sucks at being splashable, which leaves it at B. And I think it is far to say that consistency for Riolu isn't exactly proven. As for effectiveness, it really wants to be part of fight spam which gives it direct competition against some of the best mons in the tier. That being said, I do think it is underrated and should be ranked higher.

I think Riolu is a little fucked in regards to competition, and being limited to essentially fight spam or high-octane offense with the likes of knock Snivy and Digett or something, and the prankster nerf makes Riolu pretty shitty against Vullaby. I've been playing with it and while the teams I've been using have been highly suspect, it just doesn't work without specific support. Foongus and Mini-Pex just live too long with their stupid regen, and punish you since they aren't hit hard enough that they are pressured; Riolu can barely get past Spritzee, and you need to outplay Snubbull if you lack the Z. For the record, I think Eviolite Riolu is a bit worse than Z move as well, and the replays don't mean much to me considering the opposition.

I have gripes with a lot of the B ranks and I'm just too fucking busy to sort the mess. Riolu is a bit better than anything in B- (I like Cottonee a lot though!), but almost everything in mid B is better than it (or ranked too high, looking at you Frillish, Surskit, and--arguably--Oma). It would be either the best B- mon, or the worst B mon, but Riolu should move up.

The direct comparison to consider is Panda vs Riolu, and how we want them to compare. I think Riolu is better, but I also like Pancham a lot, so I lean towards mid B for Riolu's new rank.
i've been running riolu quite a bit recently and I have to agree about the issue vs vully. Considering its near ubiquitous usage right now there have been many situations where I desperately wished I could copycat HJK and take it down. That being said, I agree with TCR on Riolu possibly moving up to B. I find sword dance sets with steel coverage to actually have a surprising amount of power. The immediate priority of copycat is also often underlooked. Riolu can take advantage of a move last used by an opposing mon or teammate in many situations.
 
Treecko should be moved up from C-.

Treecko @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
If you come up against a pokemon that doesn't go well against a Treecko then you set up using swords dance, consume your berry juice then sweep with the attacking moves. Yes it has counters and is very tricky to use but if set up right it can sweep almost every team
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
It has a pretty hard time sweeping any team, honestly. 14 Attack is really unimpressive for a physical sweeper, and after a boost it still has trouble getting past stuff like Vullaby/Foongus//Grimer-A, which are pretty much on every single team nowadays. It's decently threatening if you manage to activate Unburden, but it requires not running Eviolite, which makes it ridiculously frail and kind of hard to not just get one shotted before you can activate it, let alone set up a Swords Dance. Treecko needs its Berry Juice popped AND a free turn to set up Swords Dance, and if your opponent knows what Treecko does then they're probably not going to hand those over, especially when it just drops to any super effective move. Its weaknesses aren't rare either--birds are omnipotent, Poison-types are everywhere, don't get me started on Torchic, etc. It's a fun mon but I think its fine where it is.
 

Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I actually disagree with this treecko nom,it gets checked by so many meta's threats such as vulla,foongus,grimer,etc,this set you recommended is also badly bc treecko will rarely active it's Berry juice,it's defs are pretty bad,It has lacking speed without losing juice,plus if you want to activate It to activate easilier you have to sacrifice the chance to kill something(Walled by seed If not running drain punch,walled fungi and gunk if not running acrobatics) plus faster mons can kill It easily such as chic
 

Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
hound.png

B- --> C+
Well,to start hound hasn't got a good moment in USM,it is fearing a lot of competition for Fire type in a team with Pony/Chic(and vulla/Pawn as dark) being incredible,which leaves it being less used,Hound is also fearing a lot fight types a lot and Diggy's usage also doesn't help it to shine much,Wingull and staryus has been also a problem to him because it suffers to beat it,rocks weakness also doesn't help it much as which leaves it with less chances to get a entry,so honestly it should drop
037-a.png

B --> B-
Veil teams aren't in a really good moment right now tbh,they suffer a lot with Pony being used a lot and alola Pix tie'ing with Onix/Foo which can destroy it as a lead,nothing much to say here tbh
 

SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
Meowth > B-/B
The cat is more than a niche. And with it being ranked with the likes of Axew. Just No. Strongest FO in the tier, 2hko's so much. When I saw it in C, kinda thought it was a joke, tbh. Fake Out + Feint + Stab + Technician is more than a small niche. It's a mon that can find it's way onto any team. Even can give volt turn support. Has decent enough spa to Fake Out + WP KO SturdyOnix.
 

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