Resource USM LC Viability Rankings (VR Update @ #249)

[Simbo]

I want to make a nom on a mon which I've seen popping up recently.

Venonat: Unranked to C

With the departure of torchic, Venonat finds itself with a solid niche of being able to pass speed to previous common torch speed recipients like mudbray. Venonat lacks any form of offensive presence, since the set I use and most commonly have seen consists of agility, sub, sleep and bp, but compound eyes sleep powder provides venonat set-up opportunities to get that sub/agility off and bp to recipients. Taunt shuts veno down, but taunt is pretty rare rn.
The bp core of veno/sd foo/mudbray can be dangerous to unprepared teams and veno is a key aspect of these kinds of bp teams. One huge positive for venonat is that it takes huge advantage of the two current best sleep switchins in ferro and foon. The current synth foon fails to break veno sub, meaning veno can easily pass sub with speed to a recipient. Ferro knock breaks sub but foo sets up sd on ferro and can bp out into recipients like mudbray, which aren't too threatened by ferro. Switching into these two absorbers allows the bp passing to occur, so usually you have to let something go to sleep then switch into something that pressures both veno and the recipients, so veno easily gets that +2 and puts a mon to sleep.
Veno can set-up speed and bp on a reasonable amount of meta mons like foo, pawn, foon, ferro, some timburrs, sprit, mare etc, so, with sleep and typing, it can reasonably pass speed at least once per game, and sometimes twice. +2 bulky foo is difficult to deal with without fairies, since it has the bulk to get an sd off and +2 knock and hjk/drain is very threatening to all non-fairies and both snub and sprit let mudbray in.
Bp teams revolving around veno/foo/bray are heavily matchup dependent. Overcoat vull is uncommon but super annoying, snivy destroys the core, mons which pack a lot of offensive presence like shellder, staryu, abra, bj vull, pony etc can happily come in and set-up/pressure veno and recipients if something else is asleep. Altering the filler mons to make the team stronger vs some of these problematic mons leaves you more vulnerable to other mons.
Overall, even though bp veno teams are heavily matchup dependent, I still think veno has a defined niche which it performs well enough to warrant being ranked. With a good matchup, these teams can easily 6-0.

In terms of noms made by scheff/avs/fille:

Disagree with bunny dropping. Agree with everything fille said, but I want to add that scarf bun is usually paired with trappers (grime-a/dig or even both sometimes), meaning that solid bun switchins like ferro, onix and the ghosts aren't as solid when they can get u-turned on then trapped.

 

[Ampha]

Froakie > C- hardest hitting uturn in the tier. can set hazards. protean. is weak, though, but has a niche.

I have to agree with this one tbh,it sets spikes+toxic,can taunt hazard removers and also take some of them down with ice beam,which can be kinda good for hazard stacking teams
The rest I have to disagree,Woobat looks nice in theory but in practice,pawn,vulla and darks BOOM it
Klink can't get setups at all with Fighting types everywhere,diggy,onix,etc and FERROSEED(you can't touch it), meta isn't a kind to a pure steel type
Karra cant really touch anything hard tbh,Flyings hard wall it,marea gives you a trouble and being locked in a single move doesn't help karra much
for Yamask,read woobat,plus the only regen mon to touch it for real is foo
Grow:

Growlithe is worse Ponyta 95% of the time. Burns are better than Intimidate.

 

[Corporal Levi]

The LC council has finally gotten around to updating the Viability Ranking! Lots of changes here so bear with me.

The most obvious change is that we got rid of S- entirely. The time when Timburr, Abra, and Staryu were noticeably above the A+ Pokemon in viability has long passed; they are currently almost completely in line with other A+ and mid A Pokemon. Foongus is probably the most viable Pokemon in A+ right now, and it may have been a good fit in the old S-, but putting it there now would create the impression of a larger gap between it and the next best A+ Pokemon than what is actually the case.

S- -> A+
Timburr moving down is somewhat overdue; it's been some time since it could truly compete with Mienfoo in terms of splashability. While it is by no means less threatening or reliable of a Pokemon, and is as integral to the Fighting spam archetype as ever, the vast majority of teams will appreciate Mienfoo as their sole Fighting-type over Timburr. Of course, its strengths are more than enough for it to stand out on a large number of teams anyways.

S- -> A+
Life Orb Abra has seen a sharp decline in viability since USM; the introduction of Defog Snivy, coupled with the increase in Defog Wingull and Vullaby, means that webs is much more difficult to take advantage of, and its former top abuser certainly suffers from this. Sash Abra can now comfortably claim to be its most relevant set, but it doesn't enjoy facing specially defensive Berry Juice Vullaby or Beat Up Diglett. Various niche Abra variants such as Scarf and Modest have been seeing usage recently, but at the end of the day, Abra isn't nearly as splashable as it once was.

B+ -> A+
This one is probably going to be controversial, and there was definitely some disagreement on where Mareanie should place in A within the council, though all of us agreed that it needed to move up. For the time being, we have decided that Mareanie's absurd level of splashability and effectiveness is most in line with the weaker Pokemon in A+. While most Mareanie sets do pretty much the same thing, Mareanie is able to do its job quite consistently (even though this unfortunately does not include checking foodig). The diversity of what it can run in its final moveslot between Knock Off, Toxic Spikes, Iron Defense, and even Covet, coupled with a nice set of STAB moves, means that it can be fairly annoying to switch into repeatedly.

A+ -> A
Gastly hasn't really gotten worse; it's as unpredictable and immediately threatening as ever. However, A+ has gotten a bit better with S- moving down, and Gastly isn't quite splashable enough to remain there.

B+ -> A
With Mudbray and Chinchou becoming less and less common, most teams have their Volt Switch switchins limited to Diglett and Onix, which are far less resilient to Flash Cannon. Chinchou being less common also means that Magnemite can readily forgo HP Ground for HP Fire, HP Fighting, or even Sleep Talk. As a result, Scarf Magnemite's threat level has risen enough to almost approach where it was at in ORAS. Its typing is useful as always defensively, which is helpful for both Scarf Magnemite and less common variants.

S- -> A
Staryu simply isn't nearly as splashable as it once was. The ubiquity of Defog means that hazard-based strategies aren't as reliable, so its niche as the top Rapid Spinner is less noteworthy. 4 attack offensive sets with Eviolite or a z move have become much more popular, and are comparably threatening to Wingull while not being any harder to fit onto a team. On the other hand, defensive variants are in a very poor state, often being a liability for letting Pokemon like Foongus into play for free, and so only fit onto very specific builds, which isn't enough to place Staryu as a whole in a subtier above Wingull.

A -> A-
Spritzee, Doduo, and Mudbray haven't really gotten worse because of metagame trends, but while they aren't less splashable than Ponyta or Wingull, they lack the consistent effectiveness to warrant being ranked alongside the current mid A Pokemon. Similarly, Shellder is still a very threatening setup sweeper, but is noticeably harder to include on a team than the Pokemon in mid A due to offering almost nothing defensively.

A -> A-
On the other hand, Croagunk and Ferroseed definitely dislike a lot of current metagame trends. Diglett and Vullaby being everywhere, Wingull being the most popular frail bird, Mienfoo almost always running High Jump Kick to muscle through Croagunk, Timburr frequently running Fire Punch, and Gastly sometimes running Psychic all serve to make Croagunk's life difficult and ensure that it reliably checks almost nothing. Substitute variants let it take advantage of Foongus and Mareanie more easily, but it's still much harder to justify including on a team than before. Ferroseed dislikes Mienfoo running High Jump Kick and Timburr running Fire Punch to immediately OHKO or at least damage it beyond repair, and Magnemite and Gastly will often make room for HP Fire. On top of that, Defog makes it harder for Ferroseed to have a lasting impact on the game. The degree to which it loses momentum if it is to be preserved means that it fits poorly on teams that aren't either straight up balance or hyper offense.

B -> A-
Support Tirtouga has been on the rise over the past few months, and while this was initially for its reliability as a Torchic check, its strengths are just as noteworthy in the current metagame, especially with Nasty Plot Vullaby currently being one of its less viable sets. Being almost impossible to OHKO without a strong Grass-type attack allows Tirtouga to get up rocks even more reliably than Onix, and the threat of its Shell Smash set, coupled with its access to both Aqua Jet and Knock Off, allows it to force more switches than Onix to do so. Bulky Shell Smash sets have also gotten better for their ability to bluff support variants. Tirtouga definitely isn't perfect, as its support set is hard walled by common Fighting-types and its smash sets are as vulnerable to Scarfers as ever, but it can now seriously contend with Onix for the position of a Stealth Rock setting bird check on a team.

B+ -> A-
There are a few metagame trends that are allowing Carvanha back into the metagame as a legitimate threat worth building around. Croagunk and Ferroseed being less prominent is great for it, of course, but Mienfoo and Vullaby variants have also been getting somewhat frailer, with Vullaby almost always running Berry Juice nowadays. Other than that, Snivy is scarfed more often, Weak Armor is currently on the upswing, Staryu is more often forgoing Eviolite, fairies are less common, and some teams that only have one bulky Poison are choosing to run Mareanie instead of Foongus.

A- -> B+
Chinchou and Snubbull have been suggested to move down to B+ for a little while now. Now that all of A rank has been shifted down slightly, they are more clearly outmatched in terms of viability.

B -> B+
Vulpix-alola has a reputation for being a cheesy/gimmicky Pokemon, but at this point, such a reputation isn't really deserved. Well built veil teams are consistently able to take advantage of the move in all but the worst matchups, even if it's just from the threat of potentially setting them up should apix get into play safely; while apix lacking any defensive presence does make these teams a bit more matchup based than standard bulky offense, it isn't to a greater degree than, say, shelldig or carvanha-based teams. Furthermore, STAB Ice attacks are quite threatening in this metagame, which makes apix better in general and allows it to run variants other than Light Clay to some success.

B -> B+
Larvesta appreciates the ubiquity of Defog enormously. Its Scarf set has been seeing usage lately as it harder to force out with Wingull, Berry Juice Doduo, and other fast but frail Pokemon, while still having good revenge-killing potential if rocks can't be kept off the field.

B+ -> B
Wynaut, Kabuto, Corphish, Dwebble, and Rufflet aren't necessarily bad Pokemon, and can still be very effective on the right teams. However, they aren't splashable at all, nor do they have entire archetypes revolve around them the way higher ranked nichemons do. It's around the level of mid B that we see most of the impact of Torchic's ban. Kabuto's niche as a Rapid Spinner and Aqua Jet user is far less valuable, and it rarely finds more than one free turn anyways due to how easily it's worn down, meaning Tirtouga is usually better if you don't desperately need the role compression. Corphish's niche has been reduced to its offensive prowess with Torchic leaving the tier. Dwebble's hazard stacking set isn't nearly as effective because of how common Defog is, though its Shell Smash set may have gotten a bit better from frailer Mienfoo variants. Rufflet is on the verge of dropping further; most of the time, its immediate power simply isn't worth its lack of reliability, and its Bulk Up set is far less effective without Torchic support.

B- -> B
Trapinch's niche as a trapper is noticeably more prominent than most of the Pokemon in B- and even B. While its low Speed means that it'll far more often than Diglett have matchups where it isn't useful at all, and it is rarely able to trap more than one Pokemon, being able to directly switch into several of its targets such as Grimer-alola, trap Scarf users such as Pawniard and Magnemite, and immediate power all ensure that there are a fair number of teams where Trapinch is strictly the best choice.

B -> B-
Taillow is one of those Pokemon that's better on paper than in practice. In theory, special Taillow in particular is a great threat to a lot of teams with its good coverage and powerful STAB moves. However, it tends to lack the power to OHKO most Eviolite holders, often forcing it to rely on predicting perfectly to gain mileage, and many of the Pokemon that it does OHKO can force speed ties against it. Taillow is also quite easy to wear down between a Stealth Rock weakness, Life Orb recoil, and being frail enough for Mienfoo's Fake Out to 3HKO it after rocks. In conjunction with how difficult it is to get into play, Taillow can be quite challenging to take advantage of.

B -> B-
Munchlax is pretty bad in a Fighting dominated metagame, and it isn't immediately rewarding the way Steel-types are to make up for it. You really have to make the most out of its strengths for it to be worth a team slot.

C+ -> C

C+ -> C-

C+ -> unranked

C -> C-

C -> unranked

C- -> unranked
The other big change to the Viability Ranking is that we've finally fixed up the C ranks! For the longest time, C+ was pretty much the cutoff for Pokemon that were genuinely worth using on a competitive team, so it was really hard to judge whether something should be C, C-, or unranked. For some things, we might say "it's not worth using, but if you do use it, it can at least do this"; for others, we would say "oh it's not completely outclassed since it has a couple of things over Foongus, even though it's never enough to warrant a team slot"; and for others still, it would be that "it's really cute and I beat levi with it once. keep it". Low C being so messy deterred a lot of users from even touching it. Because of this, we've decided to lower the cutoff for actually being viable to the bottom of C-. If you think a Pokemon deserves to be ranked, you have to explain not just its strengths, but why these are enough to warrant a team slot over more viable Pokemon even when considering the Pokemon's disadvantages. So while Bronzor, Venonat, and Drowzee may have made the cut in the old viability ranking, Bronzor is a flat out liability in multiple games for every game where it pops off, chainpass not being competitively viable leaves Venonat unviable as well, and in a horrific lapse of judgement, Hawkie shared the existence of Counter Drowzee with the world, causing the set to lose much of its effectiveness. Sorry!

C- -> C
C- was way too low by the old C standards (if you pretend they existed) for these two, and still too low now; they're at least usable.

B- -> C-
It's been literally years since Cranidos and Houndour were genuinely noteworthy offensive threats; in the current metagame, it's extremely diffficult to justify their inclusion on a team. I won't even bother listing all of the metagame trends that shut the two down, but Torchic's ban was the nail in the coffin for Houndour in particular. They can work, and their strengths are enough for there to exist teams that need them, but at that point, it starts to become a question of whether the team is really worth it when you have to resort to such poor Pokemon. This sums up most of the Pokemon in C- nicely.

C+ -> B-
Riolu was nominated a while back, and its effectiveness at gaining and maintaining momentum has proven to be a good fit for Voltturn-based Fighting spam teams to a degree that's more in line with Pokemon in B-.

C+ -> B-

B- -> C+
Amaura and Snover have switched places; Amaura is generally a lot more threatening if you're looking to include a strictly offensive Ice-type on your team, seeing how its Ice-type attacks are actually strong enough to 2HKO important threats. It also carries a handy Flying resist to get into play more easily. Snover still has its Grass typing, which may be helpful if you're particularly weak to Staryu, and Ice Shard gives LO variants a small niche on certain webs builds, but it's noticeably more difficult to take advantage of the effectiveness of Ice-type attacks with Scarf or Eviolite Snover when Blizzard doesn't even OHKO Foongus after rocks.

C+ -> B-
Finally, Meowth has been raised to B-.

 

[MK007]

C+ -> B-
Finally, Meowth has been raised to B-.

 

[SCHEFF]

huge fan s/o levi for keeping the viability rankings fresh. ignore a lot of my convo starters, and i appreciate you reading all of the community feedback.

i do think bronzor should still be c-, as it has a usable competitive niche. my one ofhter one is cubone staying c-
i maybe one of the few people to ever use goldeen, lightning rod is nice, but i can't legitimately argue for its inclusion in the c tier.

i'm outright amazed at how much i agree with the new viability rankings. you've found a good way to just draw the line and make the boundaries more clear, as well as getting rid of those mons we wont use.

humongous props to the lc council and corporal levi. i literally only have 2 minor qualms about the viability rankings. i think that should say how good these are.

(also can't complain w/ my budew rise, the obvious maraenie large rise, mag rise, bray drop, and meowth rise)

 

[Ampha]

C+ -> B-
Finally, Meowth has been raised to B-.

 

[wiczyk]

Artwork by Schaff.

Welcome to the LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted, but please make sure you have a proper understanding of the current metagame before doing so. Bad/basic posts will be deleted, and repeated offenses may be punished by infraction. However, asking questions about why certain Pokemon are ranked where they are is acceptable.

Also don't nominate a Pokemon to move up more than 2 sub rankings. There are instances where this is needed, such as when a new mechanic is discovered, but usually it is not and in fact nominations of such a large jump tend to be disagreed on by the community at large.


Viability Ranking Council
For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.

Shrug

Quote

Nineage

OP

Coconut

Merritt

Zebraiken

Star

Corporal Levi

dcae



Tier List

Without further ado, here is the tier list. The ranks in descending order, with the Pokemon in each rank ordered alphabetically.

S RANK​

S

Diglett

Mienfoo

Vullaby

A RANK​

A+

Abra

Foongus

Mareanie

Onix

Pawniard

Snivy

Timburr

A

Gastly

Magnemite

Ponyta

Staryu

Wingull

A-

Carvanha

Croagunk

Doduo

Ferroseed

Grimer-Alola

Mudbray

Shellder

Spritzee

Tirtouga

B RANK​

B+

Chinchou

Elekid

Larvesta

Scraggy

Slowpoke

Snubbull

Vulpix-Alola

B

Bunnelby

Corphish

Dwebble

Frillish

Kabuto

Omanyte

Pumpkaboo-Super

Rufflet

Surskit

Trapinch

Wynaut

Zigzagoon

B-

Archen

Amaura

Cottonee

Dewpider

Drilbur

Meowth

Munchlax

Pancham

Snover

Salandit

Taillow

C RANK​

C+

Clamperl

Koffing

Pikipek

Pumpkaboo-Small

Snover

C

Anorith

Axew

Budew

Chespin

Lileep

Natu

Sandshrew-Alola

Skrelp

Spinarak

Trubbish

Tyrunt

C-

Cranidos

Darumaka

Deerling

Hippopotas

Houndour

Lickitung

Magby

Mankey

Sandile

Sandshrew

Stufful

Tentacool

Venipede


BLACKLISTED, DO NOT DISCUSS:

Nothing atm, but don't press your luck.

Cranidos: C- --> B
It's sad that I never see people use this when I play lc. 16 speed isn't terrible, and with its wide variety of moves covered by sheer force and using A life orb, this pokemon can ohko almost every pokemon in the tier. It becomes a complete monster with speed buff, and it's second ability mold breaker isn't terrible either.

Foongus: A+ --> A
Although Foongus can be very strong, it is auto-countered by ferroseed and gets destroyed by any fire type move. It's too easy to counter for it to deserve this rank.

Clamperl: C+ --> B+
The raw power of this pokemon is enough to get it to a higher rank even though it's predictable. Shell smash+ deep sea tooth can 1 hit ko bascially everything in the tier as long as the damage is neutral, and shell smash is not hard to set up, especially if another pokemon or your team runs screens

 

[Camden]

Cranidos: C- --> B
It's sad that I never see people use this when I play lc. 16 speed isn't terrible, and with its wide variety of moves covered by sheer force and using A life orb, this pokemon can ohko almost every pokemon in the tier. It becomes a complete monster with speed buff, and it's second ability mold breaker isn't terrible either.

Foongus: A+ --> A
Although Foongus can be very strong, it is auto-countered by ferroseed and gets destroyed by any fire type move. It's too easy to counter for it to deserve this rank.

Clamperl: C+ --> B+
The raw power of this pokemon is enough to get it to a higher rank even though it's predictable. Shell smash+ deep sea tooth can 1 hit ko bascially everything in the tier as long as the damage is neutral, and shell smash is not hard to set up, especially if another pokemon or your team runs screens

I strongly disagree with all of these nominations. Cranidos has seen very little use, and for good reason. It has a bad typing that leaves it exposed to both Fighting and Grass, two of the most prominent types in the metagame. That 16 Speed you mentioned means that it gets outsped by Mienfoo, Snivy, Staryu, Diglett, ties with Pawniard, etc. It has poor bulk on top of an awkward speed tier and typing meaning it needs an Eviolite to tank anything. While they can seem enticing, Rock Polish sets are flawed because you have to give up an attack slot and find a turn to set up, hurting your ability to sweep. Cranidos's best roles are being a wallbreaker and scarfer, but it's too easy to revenge because of the aforementioned bulk leaving it open as prio bait. I could go on listing more weaknesses but I think the severe lack of tournament play is testament enough to its lacklustre status.

Foongus is the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame except for possibly Mareanie. Spore is the best legal status move in the game and it can use it to almost no drawback because of Regenerator and Synthesis along with its fantastic typing. "Auto-countered by ferroseed" is not a good argument to drop it. We don't drop a defensive Pokemon down in viability because it can't hurt another defensive Pokemon. You're ignoring all of the positives that Foongus has going for it, like walling most of the metagame and healing most of the damage it will ever take. Your fire-type argument is also invalid because by that logic every Pokemon in existence would be bad because they have a weakness. It's not dropping.

Clamperl has a lot of power but it takes a lot of support to set up, and in many battles can't find that opportunity. DeepSeaTooth means that it's open to being picked off by almost every form of priority, and if you're not using tooth then it's not worth using. Other Shell Smashers like Shellder and Tirtouga are ranked higher because of how easy it is for them to set up in comparison. You mentioned screens and that is a viable method of protecting Clamperl, however those teams are very specific in how they're built and the support Pokemon Clamperl uses also have their own consistency problems. Overall I don't think Clamperl is bad, but the rate at which a high level player is going to win with it isn't very high, and the lack of Clamperl in high-level play signifies that. If you were at least arguing for it to rise to B- I would give this a bit more thought, but the Pokemon currently at B+ are more self-sufficient and don't need the same support Clamperl does to succeed.



I do like that new players are trying to post here because gaining new perspectives on the same Pokemon we've been using is wonderful to our growth as players and as a community, however I strongly encourage that you try to understand the metagame more before making VR nominations, specially big ones like you made. The general rule of thumb for a Viability Ranking thread is that you don't nominate a Pokemon to move more than two subranks at a time unless something major happened in the metagame or the Pokemon gained something new, like a move/ability/item. Nothing has happened in the metagame to warrant these three Pokemon making a huge jump or fall, and in the case of Foongus, it's still seen as the top defensive choice for most teams. If you want to ask questions about a Pokemon's viability, you're more than welcome to do that. Once you learn more about competitive Pokemon and the LC metagame then I'm sure you'll be able to make stronger arguments that aren't surface-level analysis.

 

[wiczyk]

I strongly disagree with all of these nominations. Cranidos has seen very little use, and for good reason. It has a bad typing that leaves it exposed to both Fighting and Grass, two of the most prominent types in the metagame. That 16 Speed you mentioned means that it gets outsped by Mienfoo, Snivy, Staryu, Diglett, ties with Pawniard, etc. It has poor bulk on top of an awkward speed tier and typing meaning it needs an Eviolite to tank anything. While they can seem enticing, Rock Polish sets are flawed because you have to give up an attack slot and find a turn to set up, hurting your ability to sweep. Cranidos's best roles are being a wallbreaker and scarfer, but it's too easy to revenge because of the aforementioned bulk leaving it open as prio bait. I could go on listing more weaknesses but I think the severe lack of tournament play is testament enough to its lacklustre status.

Foongus is the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame except for possibly Mareanie. Spore is the best legal status move in the game and it can use it to almost no drawback because of Regenerator and Synthesis along with its fantastic typing. "Auto-countered by ferroseed" is not a good argument to drop it. We don't drop a defensive Pokemon down in viability because it can't hurt another defensive Pokemon. You're ignoring all of the positives that Foongus has going for it, like walling most of the metagame and healing most of the damage it will ever take. Your fire-type argument is also invalid because by that logic every Pokemon in existence would be bad because they have a weakness. It's not dropping.

Clamperl has a lot of power but it takes a lot of support to set up, and in many battles can't find that opportunity. DeepSeaTooth means that it's open to being picked off by almost every form of priority, and if you're not using tooth then it's not worth using. Other Shell Smashers like Shellder and Tirtouga are ranked higher because of how easy it is for them to set up in comparison. You mentioned screens and that is a viable method of protecting Clamperl, however those teams are very specific in how they're built and the support Pokemon Clamperl uses also have their own consistency problems. Overall I don't think Clamperl is bad, but the rate at which a high level player is going to win with it isn't very high, and the lack of Clamperl in high-level play signifies that. If you were at least arguing for it to rise to B- I would give this a bit more thought, but the Pokemon currently at B+ are more self-sufficient and don't need the same support Clamperl does to succeed.



I do like that new players are trying to post here because gaining new perspectives on the same Pokemon we've been using is wonderful to our growth as players and as a community, however I strongly encourage that you try to understand the metagame more before making VR nominations, specially big ones like you made. The general rule of thumb for a Viability Ranking thread is that you don't nominate a Pokemon to move more than two subranks at a time unless something major happened in the metagame or the Pokemon gained something new, like a move/ability/item. Nothing has happened in the metagame to warrant these three Pokemon making a huge jump or fall, and in the case of Foongus, it's still seen as the top defensive choice for most teams. If you want to ask questions about a Pokemon's viability, you're more than welcome to do that. Once you learn more about competitive Pokemon and the LC metagame then I'm sure you'll be able to make stronger arguments that aren't surface-level analysis.

Looking back at that post, I realize I didn't explain a lot about each pokemon, and I fully agree with you saying foongus should not drop. I didn't have enough experience with the metagame, and my non-meta teams I built were really good against foongus, but I understand that doesn't mean anything. I would like to reclarify my ratings and make a few new nominations myself.

Cranidos: C- --> high C/low C+: A pokemon's usage can be different than it's viability. Although I was definitely wrong putting this in b, Most pokemon in c- either have a small niche or are almost completely outclassed by a better pokemon. Cranidos is a fairly versatile pokemon, with it being at least viable on trick room teams and getting a speed buff from a teammate's baton pass. It also has 2 abilities that can pose a major threat. Mold breaker can be used alongside a focus sash to destroy gastly with ease and ignore goldeen's lighting rod, and more, or sheer force and its multiple coverage moves that go with sheer force paired up with either a life orb or choice scarf, depending on what you team needs, can be super powerful. This pokemon has way too many viable sets for it to be c-.

Yungoos: Unranked to C/C+ Okay. This one may confuse you at first, as yungoos is less used than absolutely horrible pokemon like pumbakoo-large, slakoth, and makuhita. What people don't realize is that Yungoos can actually be very scary. At first, yungoos may seem horrible with a 70 base attack and 45 base speed, but what makes this pokemon good is it's ability, adaptability. This ability can boost the power of return to a powerful 204 base power, and boosts trash to a scary 240 base power. With a choice scarf, this out-speeds every non-scarfed/boosted pokemon, which is really useful. I was using this on my lc team with bunnelby as well, and this was doing a lot more than bunnelby was. Also, getting locked into a normal move is okay because the only prominent ghost type is ghastly, and if you kill that you're good to go.

Inkay: Unranked to C+ /B- This pokemon is very scary. With a scarf this pokemon moves very fast, and unlike with yungoos, the faster pokemon like mienfoo and other scarf users don't hurt it as bad, as they are mostly physical attackers, and Inkay's superpower will boost its defense. It also can wreck stall pokemon with switcheroo, and make them useless as they will have either have to keep healing, rock/screen setting, etc. Also, psycho cut and knock off are very powerful when they are boosted by stab, and this pokemon's only weaknesses are bugs and fairys, neither of which are too common in the meta.

Mantyke: Unranked to C-: This pokemon has great special defense and has access to good stall moves like scald and rest talk sets. Although this pokemon is almost outclassed by staryu, it still has a small niche as it is more bulky, and has access to air slash.

Small note: Woobat, bidoof, and numel should all be moved to c- because they are the only pokemon with simple, and they all are used in different ways, giving them a small niche in the meta

Phantump: (sorry I couldn't find sprite): Unranked to C: This pokemon is played very similar to pumkaboo-super, which uses leech seed and stuff to stall. Pumkaboo is more bulky, but it's abilty is much worse than phantump's harvest. This is because harvest can recover an oran berry, which will heal phantump around 50% of its hp. This defined niche phantump doesn't have makes it viable in lc\

Clamperl: c+ to b: although clamperl doesn't have the best defenses, it can still survive easily against rock setters or stallers, and then with a massive 68 spa from shell smash and dea sea tooth, it can ohko every non- unaware pokemon in the tier with a neutrally effective move that's not hidden power. Clamperl also can be as a special wall with deep sea tooth, which will make it very strong

 

[Merritt]

Yungoos: Unranked to C/C+ Okay. This one may confuse you at first, as yungoos is less used than absolutely horrible pokemon like pumbakoo-large, slakoth, and makuhita. What people don't realize is that Yungoos can actually be very scary. At first, yungoos may seem horrible with a 70 base attack and 45 base speed, but what makes this pokemon good is it's ability, adaptability. This ability can boost the power of return to a powerful 204 base power, and boosts trash to a scary 240 base power. With a choice scarf, this out-speeds every non-scarfed/boosted pokemon, which is really useful. I was using this on my lc team with bunnelby as well, and this was doing a lot more than bunnelby was. Also, getting locked into a normal move is okay because the only prominent ghost type is ghastly, and if you kill that you're good to go.

196+ Atk Adaptability Yungoos Return vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Adaptability Yungoos Thrash vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Maybe when Bunnelby doesn't do more damage, I'd consider using a virtually identical in bulk, slower and weaker version.

I definitely can't agree with this one at the very least.

Edit @ below:

Some high quality yungoos gameplay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-746075151

Bunnelby would have done this better, since it wouldn't have hit itself in confusion on the last turn and its return does equal or more damage than Yungoos' Thrash. This is also definitely not high quality, seeing as your opponent was using a Sinnoh only themed team utilizing Starly and Piplup.

 

[wiczyk]

Some high quality yungoos gameplay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-746075151

 

[jake]

Looking back at that post, I realize I didn't explain a lot about each pokemon, and I fully agree with you saying foongus should not drop. I didn't have enough experience with the metagame, and my non-meta teams I built were really good against foongus, but I understand that doesn't mean anything. I would like to reclarify my ratings and make a few new nominations myself.

hey dude, merritt responded to a little bit already but i also want to say something. one thing i noticed in your nominations was that most of your recommendations talk about the different options and unique qualities each pokemon has. you're right in a good chunk of these statements, but the thing about these rankings is that they take context (with your other pokemon options & the current LC metagame) into account.

sure, yungoos has adaptability and can hit really hard with a scarf, but in context with other available options, bunnelby has a better moveset, better speed tier, better bulk, and hits hard when not using a STAB move. all of these traits together make using yungoos a pretty unviable pokemon, because you will literally always be better off using the bunny.

more examples: cranidos has plenty of cool and strong options, but in a metagame where fighting-types are all over the place & cranidos is a slow rock-type with very little defensive utility, it struggles to find a place on teams and has reduced viability. pokemon with simple shouldn't be added to the viability list just because they have simple. they need to have a specific and noteworthy use in the context of a competitive game, and that niche needs to be something other than "has simple."

for example, chespin is a pokemon that, by all means, is pretty bad stats-wise. however, it's on the viability rankings because it has a great niche: being able to switch into very common pokemon like foongus and gastly without any fear (of sleep, especially). in comparison, your suggestion for mantyke's niche (bulkier than staryu and has access to air slash) pales because neither of those things are particularly important or relevant to the metagame.

glad to see new people playing LC!

 

[wiczyk]

196+ Atk Adaptability Yungoos Return vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Adaptability Yungoos Thrash vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Maybe when Bunnelby doesn't do more damage, I'd consider using a virtually identical in bulk, slower and weaker version.

I definitely can't agree with this one at the very least.

Okay. I guess bunnelby is the same power with return, but yungoos has 2 more great abilities. I think stakeout is better, as it will give a 3x boost instead of 2. Also, crunch with strong jaw can throw off ghost types

 

[Hawkie]

Inkay: Unranked to C+ /B- This pokemon is very scary. With a scarf this pokemon moves very fast, and unlike with yungoos, the faster pokemon like mienfoo and other scarf users don't hurt it as bad, as they are mostly physical attackers, and Inkay's superpower will boost its defense. It also can wreck stall pokemon with switcheroo, and make them useless as they will have either have to keep healing, rock/screen setting, etc. Also, psycho cut and knock off are very powerful when they are boosted by stab, and this pokemon's only weaknesses are bugs and fairys, neither of which are too common in the meta.

Inkay has way too much counterplay to be considered scary. It's low stats including speed force it to run a choice scarf set meaning it's incredibly easy to predict what it will do from team preview. Almost every team runs U-Turn as a pivoting move which does heavy damage even to boosted Inkay, allowing the user to switch out to a teammate that resists Inkay's attack. It only hits 15 speed so finds itself revenge killed by faster scarfers or pokemon that can resist it's boosting move. It's not worth a team slot.

Mantyke: Unranked to C-: This pokemon has great special defense and has access to good stall moves like scald and rest talk sets. Although this pokemon is almost outclassed by staryu, it still has a small niche as it is more bulky, and has access to air slash.

Mantyke has no form of recovery outside of Rest, that plus it's 4x weakness to electric moves means it does not work as a stall pokemon. It's only niche is a setter/sweeper on manual rain teams, which aren't that viable. It's not that bad a pokemon, but there's not much worth in using it over Wingull or Staryu.

Small note: Woobat, bidoof, and numel should all be moved to c- because they are the only pokemon with simple, and they all are used in different ways, giving them a small niche in the meta

None of these pokemon perform the role of a setup sweeper well, Bidoof and Woobat are weak defensively and offensively even after boosting, and are easily taken advantage of by Mienfoo / Vullaby etc. None of them have enough impact on the meta to be ranked.

Phantump just gets hit with knock off and rendered useless, pumpkaboo is better.

It's nice to see the VR thread being revived and you're heading in the right direction, just play a bit more and try using some more standard pokemon to really get to grips with the meta

 

[wiczyk]

hey dude, merritt responded to a little bit already but i also want to say something. one thing i noticed in your nominations was that most of your recommendations talk about the different options and unique qualities each pokemon has. you're right in a good chunk of these statements, but the thing about these rankings is that they take context (with your other pokemon options & the current LC metagame) into account.

sure, yungoos has adaptability and can hit really hard with a scarf, but in context with other available options, bunnelby has a better moveset, better speed tier, better bulk, and hits hard when not using a STAB move. all of these traits together make using yungoos a pretty unviable pokemon, because you will literally always be better off using the bunny.

more examples: cranidos has plenty of cool and strong options, but in a metagame where fighting-types are all over the place & cranidos is a slow rock-type with very little defensive utility, it struggles to find a place on teams and has reduced viability. pokemon with simple shouldn't be added to the viability list just because they have simple. they need to have a specific and noteworthy use in the context of a competitive game, and that niche needs to be something other than "has simple."

for example, chespin is a pokemon that, by all means, is pretty bad stats-wise. however, it's on the viability rankings because it has a great niche: being able to switch into very common pokemon like foongus and gastly without any fear (of sleep, especially). in comparison, your suggestion for mantyke's niche (bulkier than staryu and has access to air slash) pales because neither of those things are particularly important or relevant to the metagame.

glad to see new people playing LC!

I guess ur right but im sticking with phantump, inkay, and maybe yungoos to c/c-

 

[Camden]

We just received new artwork for the thread OP from the same person that made the previous one:

Thank you very much to Moon for making this for us! I love it!

 

[wiczyk]

Inkay has way too much counterplay to be considered scary. It's low stats including speed force it to run a choice scarf set meaning it's incredibly easy to predict what it will do from team preview. Almost every team runs U-Turn as a pivoting move which does heavy damage even to boosted Inkay, allowing the user to switch out to a teammate that resists Inkay's attack. It only hits 15 speed so finds itself revenge killed by faster scarfers or pokemon that can resist it's boosting move. It's not worth a team slot.



Mantyke has no form of recovery outside of Rest, that plus it's 4x weakness to electric moves means it does not work as a stall pokemon. It's only niche is a setter/sweeper on manual rain teams, which aren't that viable. It's not that bad a pokemon, but there's not much worth in using it over Wingull or Staryu.



None of these pokemon perform the role of a setup sweeper well, Bidoof and Woobat are weak defensively and offensively even after boosting, and are easily taken advantage of by Mienfoo / Vullaby etc. None of them have enough impact on the meta to be ranked.

Phantump just gets hit with knock off and rendered useless, pumpkaboo is better.

It's nice to see the VR thread being revived and you're heading in the right direction, just play a bit more and try using some more standard pokemon to really get to grips with the meta

I've already won a fair share of battles with regular pokemon like abra and vullaby, but im trying to come up with new sets for lc that no one has really used. You are right that phantump just loses to knock off, but usually there is 1-2 pokemon that run it on a team, and it's much easier to win if the enemy saves those pokemon to deal with it. Phantump has done a lot for me overall in my games. Also, electric types are not prominent in the meta, so manytke doesn't have to worry about those and if it does, it will switch out. Blissey gets ohkoed by a lot of STAB close combats, but that doesn't make it not a wall. Bidoof is pretty easy to use with just swords dance and quick attack getting rid of a solid 1.5 pokemon a game (average) and if the opponent switches, that's an opportunity to swords dance or use not quick attack. Woobat is kinda the same for special with it's killing move being stored power, and numel has acsess to flame charge for speed and stockpile

 

[Gummy]

if you're coming up with new sets, put them in the "creative/underrated sets" thread. the VR is for stuff that is not only usable, but usable over other pokemon. for example, bidoof does indeed get access to simple swords dance, but why on earth would you even bother with that when belly drum zigzagoon exists? "blissey gets ohkoed by close combat but that doesn't make it not a wall" is kind of a weird argument because 1. this is LC and 2. nobody ever called blissey a physical wall.

but yea hail is pretty wack, nom to move amaura up to B. ice resists are pretty uncommon now and a 100% accurate STAB blizzard tears up a big portion of the meta. it puts pressure on a ton of teams right from team preview and way better than basically any other hail user except a-veil pix i guess

 

[Corporal Levi]

Just a couple quick noms for now:

Foongus: A+ -> S

The difference between A+ and S isn't very clear cut, seeing how both subtiers contain the most defining Pokemon in LC. I personally feel that S belongs to Pokemon whose strengths put them above minor metagame shifts when it comes to viability. Compared to the frequent movements between A+ and A, the Pokemon in S tend to stay there for years at a time; a few Fighting checks becoming slightly better or Croagunk being on the decline surely wouldn't be enough to drop Mienfoo or Diglett down to A+. Foongus has been a mainstay at the very top of A+ since Gothita was banned, and it shows no signs of dropping. Many of the trends that came with or after USM don't necessarily favour it, such as Ponyta making a comeback, Croagunk sometimes carrying Substitute, and more recently, Ferroseed becoming more favourable again, in large part because of Foongus. However, the enormous range of Pokemon that it can check, combined with how consistently it is able to do so, means that in any metagame similar to ours, there will always be something important for Foongus to do; as a result, its niche has never gotten smaller. For example, Ponyta is checked by Onix, Mudbray, and Water-types, which in turn are checked by Foongus; more importantly, these help to cement Snivy as a top tier Pokemon, and Foongus happens to be the most consistent Snivy check around.

When trying to consider how viable a Pokemon may be, I like to split my thoughts into three categories that ideally cover all facets of how "good" a Pokemon is: splashability, how often it is rightfully included on a team; consistency, how regularly it fulfills its role for the team; and threat level, how capable it is of going above and beyond to shut down the opposing team. This makes it easy to see why despite only having one set (with a couple of acceptable options for its last slot beyond Synthesis), a lack of versatility doesn't work against Foongus's viability - versatility would, in this context, mainly aid a Pokemon in splashability or threat level, areas where Foongus's sole set is already more than able to compete in. It also helps to show where the other A+ Pokemon may be lacking, relative to the S ranks, that make them much more in line with the rest of the metagame.

I won't go into detail on what Foongus does; I'm sure all of us already know.

Splashability. This is where Abra and Timburr fall a bit flat. They're still much easier to include on a team than anything in A, possibly excluding Ferroseed/Spritzee/Gastly, but when you compare them to other Pokemon in A+ or S, it's noticeably harder to find a team that appreciates Abra or Timburr more than anything else for a given slot. Abra's frailty and lack of resistances causes it to offer no defensive synergy whatsoever, limiting it to strictly offensive archetypes as a safety net or, if the rest of the team is solid enough, a general offensive threat. Timburr isn't as extreme, and it won't really make a team that much worse by being included over Mienfoo, but at the end of the day, for the large majority of teams that only want one Fighting-type, Mienfoo will be the slightly better choice.

On the other hand, Foongus was used 64 times in the 58 SM games of the first three weeks of LCPL.

Consistency. Pawniard is certainly a threat to all but the most prepared teams, and its fantastic role compression puts its splashability nearly on the level of the S ranks. However, its crippling double weakness to Fighting, vulnerability to trappers, and reliance on Sucker Punch/Pursuit mindgames means that games where Pawniard will do nothing will happen far more frequently than any other Pokemon mid A and up. I could honestly have listed Snivy under splashability as well, as its frailty means that its defensive utility isn't quite up there. Its level of consistency is also suspect compared to other top level threats, as its Eviolite and other non-Scarf sets tend to struggle heavily against hyper offensive teams, while Scarf Snivy is just about completely shut down by Foongus. Of course, Snivy still very much belongs in A+ due to being arguably the single most immediately threatening Pokemon in LC.

Consistency has always been one of Foongus's stronger points. Claims that Foongus isn't reliable because it doesn't shut down everything it checks are really unfair because hard stops are so rare in LC; in fact, they hardly exist at all outside of Foongus and Mareanie, so the fact that Foongus can mitigate sets like defensive Spritzee and Scarf Snivy to such an extent is a huge point in its favour. Most of what Foongus wants to deal with can muscle past it after it has been Knocked Off and Sleep Clause has been activated, but the free turns for its team that Foongus forces while this scenario is being set up, coupled with the fact that Foongus can still usually win on the revenge kill, means that Foongus still does its job quite well. While Foongus isn't so bulky that it's completely immune to lures, if an attempt to lure it isn't successful at KOing Foongus, it has a very good chance to recover its health and continue to be a threat later in the match; this is in sharp contrast with other defensive Pokemon like Spritzee or Ferroseed, which end up being reduced to sacks. For a niche as large as Foongus's, you can't get any better when it comes to consistency; Mienfoo and Vullaby are a bit easier to lure and a lot easier to wear down, while Diglett is by nature a lot more high risk than Foongus.

Threat level. The idea here is that where the previous section covers low risk in the average in-game scenario, this section covers high reward. For example, Onix is pretty much everywhere and is very good at doing what it needs to do - deterring Volt Switch, deterring Vullaby and Ponyta from using their STAB moves, and getting rocks up - to a degree that is easily on par with the S ranks. It just doesn't do much else. Weak Armor Onix might pop off once in a while, but playing into such a position against just the right matchup is far too rare for it to count as one of Onix's major strengths.

This is where a lot of support oriented Pokemon tend to struggle, and not being immediately threatening is what kept Foongus from being considered S for the longest time; even now, it's much easier to wall than anything currently in S. I think that with the ridiculous prominence of Foongus wars in the current metagame, it's time for us to reconsider this. Foongus probably won't be getting KOs left and right early on or otherwise pressuring the opposition offensively the way a hyper offensive team might want, but the degree to which it can drain the opponent's momentum through Spore and its longevity causes it to be just as effective at dismantling the opposing team in the long run. Walling Foongus while asleep isn't great because you're letting something in for free, and most sleep absorbers either outright lose to Foongus (Snivy, Elekid), have a high opportunity cost in some way (Overcoat Vullaby, Ferroseed), or are Foongus themself. Because of this, Foongus-weak teams not only exist, but are actually quite easy to arrive at if you don't consciously and heavily prepare for Foongus, as opposed to, say, most teams having a Pawniard check without even thinking. A Spore absorber, a Grass check that can also handle Poison-type attacks, and multiple Pokemon that can hit Foongus super effectively are all important things to have on any traditionally solid modern team, and warp what the average team looks like to a greater degree than most high tier offensive threats; missing any of them will put your team at just as much of a disadvantage as, say, not carrying solid Vullaby checks.

Mareanie: A+ -> A

We kind of overshot it a little when we moved Mareanie straight from B+ to A+. It's a good Pokemon, but not nearly as trivial to include on a team as anything currently in A+. Most notably, there's an opportunity cost associated with using it: while Foongus and Mareanie can work on the same team, it's usually easier to go with just one, and having your bulky Poison type be that much less threatening without Spore is a big drawback.

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

Well, time to nominate:

UR -> C-

Alolan Geodude finds a little niche in being a trapper which can easily remove Ferroseed and Pawniard (and even Scarf Magnemite stuck on Thunderbolt) thanks to its bulk and Magnet Pull, which offers a great support to wallbreakers and setup sweepers such as Abra, Gastly, and Shellder, as well as setup Stealth Rock, which makes a big difference between it and Magnemite, which clearly outclasses him with better Speed and overall offensive presence. Disadvantage is that, due to the fact of its slow Speed, it must be brought in by a slow momentum regainer such as Mienfoo or Vullaby, as taking Knock Off limits its capabilities to trap Pawniard, though making double switches when required helps it to enter the field with no harm. Making a side note, Alolan Geodude's niche amplifies against Diglett-less teams, due to obvious reasons, and despite Magnemite already does this even better, certain team compositions appreciate the traits GeoA can apport to its team. To make it clear, here's one set for it and two replays with GeoA being used in high level games that are LCPL:

set by fiend

Geodude-Alola @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

Week 1, Shrug vs fattyyy
Week 3, taranteeeno vs majaspic22

B+ -> A-

Chinchou, despite how metagame flows, manages to get a team spot in some compositions thanks to the niche of being the best Magnemite answer. Its bulky variants make it work both as blanket check to many metagame threats such as Flying-types and Water-types (Shellder, most importantly) and as a bulky pivot, and it can use a variety of fillers to surprise many threats that normally can take care of it (hidden power fire, endure, etc), and offensive sets do work really well (doing a spotlight on icium z, used by tcr on week 2). Though Diglett still exists, I'd like to rise it back.

Opinions:

A+ -> S

Pains me to say this, but I agree wholeheartly on levi's nom. Foongus is totally everywhere, and LCPL usages prove that it's true. Spore and Regenerator sucks away momentum from your opponent and forces everyone to have at least one answer to it, but many of their answers get shut down by Spore, and leads to Foongus wars (PP stalling out your rival), though answers such as Ferroseed, thanks to Synthesis being run more than Hidden Power Fire, can thrive against it. But what it matters is that Pokemon such as Snivy and Diglett could run over teams, being a good answer to both and thus, splashable to the point of being absurd.

e:

A+ -> A

Agreed. This Pokemon got a bit overhyped, sometimes it gets hard to make it fit on a team, but outside of that, it's a good Pokémon that can still offer many things. But, Foongus can suck momentum from rivals, while Mareanie can't.

 

[Merritt]

UR -> C-

Alolan Geodude finds a little niche in being a trapper which can easily remove Ferroseed and Pawniard (and even Scarf Magnemite stuck on Thunderbolt) thanks to its bulk and Magnet Pull, which offers a great support to wallbreakers and setup sweepers such as Abra, Gastly, and Shellder, as well as setup Stealth Rock, which makes a big difference between it and Magnemite, which clearly outclasses him with better Speed and overall offensive presence. Disadvantage is that, due to the fact of its slow Speed, it must be brought in by a slow momentum regainer such as Mienfoo or Vullaby, as taking Knock Off limits its capabilities to trap Pawniard, though making double switches when required helps it to enter the field with no harm. Making a side note, Alolan Geodude's niche amplifies against Diglett-less teams, due to obvious reasons, and despite Magnemite already does this even better, certain team compositions appreciate the traits GeoA can apport to its team. To make it clear, here's one set for it and two replays with GeoA being used in high level games that are LCPL:

set by fiend

Geodude-Alola @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

Week 1, Shrug vs fattyyy
Week 3, taranteeeno vs majaspic22

Aside from any particular opinion on the nom itself (although I disagree if you want to read biases into things), these replays don't really do a good job convincing me to use geo-a over Magnemite. The first replay features aggressive plays from Shrug early on that put him in a strong position before geo-a comes in. While at least it gets a chance to set up rocks here, the rocks also don't matter particularly much ultimately - at best they made fatty play differently with Spritzee. I'd argue Magnemite would have been more useful in this situation, as Volt Switch after Mudbray died would have helped Shrug's team pivot and likely win without the need for the misclick.

Game two Geo-a does absolutely nothing Magnemite could not have done.

Personally I believe Geodude-a is thoroughly outclassed by Magnemite, since the minor improvements it offers in the trapping field (including Stealth Rock access) are more than outweighed by Magnemite's access to Volt Switch and a strong neutral stab that actually lets it hurt ground types in matchups where steel-types aren't present.

 

[wiczyk]

Aside from any particular opinion on the nom itself (although I disagree if you want to read biases into things), these replays don't really do a good job convincing me to use geo-a over Magnemite. The first replay features aggressive plays from Shrug early on that put him in a strong position before geo-a comes in. While at least it gets a chance to set up rocks here, the rocks also don't matter particularly much ultimately - at best they made fatty play differently with Spritzee. I'd argue Magnemite would have been more useful in this situation, as Volt Switch after Mudbray died would have helped Shrug's team pivot and likely win without the need for the misclick.

Game two Geo-a does absolutely nothing Magnemite could not have done.

Personally I believe Geodude-a is thoroughly outclassed by Magnemite, since the minor improvements it offers in the trapping field (including Stealth Rock access) are more than outweighed by Magnemite's access to Volt Switch and a strong neutral stab that actually lets it hurt ground types in matchups where steel-types aren't present.

Hey yo you realize that those "Minor benefits" that geodude gives over magnemite as a trapper is literally why he nominated for it to be c-? On most teams magnemite is better, but if you need geodude's typing and a trapper to balance your team or it needs stealth rock and a physical trapper, then geodude is a better option. That is why it is c- and not higher.

 

[Merritt]

Hey yo you realize that those "Minor benefits" that geodude gives over magnemite as a trapper is literally why he nominated for it to be c-? On most teams magnemite is better, but if you need geodude's typing and a trapper to balance your team or it needs stealth rock and a physical trapper, then geodude is a better option. That is why it is c- and not higher.

Alrighty, I guess I'll actually expand beyond a single paragraph.

Pokemon can be ranked even if their main use is also done by other Pokemon in the VR. The best and clearest example of this is Diglett and Trapinch. That is not why Geodude-Alola should not be ranked.

The thing is, that in order for a Pokemon to be ranked (yes even at C-) in my eyes, there has to be a compelling reason to use it over alternatives who share a similar niche. A good player can make any Pokemon, even unranked or outclassed ones, function so you certainly shouldn't just use "this person used it successfully" as an argument. An example of such would be Morelull vs Foongus. Morelull certainly has some useful traits over Foongus, like Strength Sap, a typing that makes a Diglett trap much more difficult, and the ever useful Fairy-typing, but Foongus' advantages over its cousin are so immense that it leaves Morelull unranked.

Geodude-Alola is a functional Magnet Pull Pokemon. Geodude-A's main draws over Magnemite as a magnet pull Pokemon can be summed up as follows:

• Geodude-A is better at switching into and trapping Pawniard. It also is able to OHKO Pawniard without sacrificing the ability to trap and kill Ferroseed as well.
• Geodude-A has a typing and stat spread that makes it marginally better at checking specific Vullaby sets.
• Geodude-A has access to Stealth Rock.

Note that Geodude-A's fire resistance and higher physical bulk aren't actually particularly relevant, as the most viable by far Fire-type in Ponyta carries the incredibly deadly High Horsepower and the most relevant physical attackers in the tier (Fighting- and Ground-types) are obviously poor matchups for Geodude-A.

Magnemite's advantages over Geodude-A can be listed as follows. For obvious reasons, this will usually cover an Eviolite Magnet Pull set (I'll expressly mention if I'm talking about a different item) since that's the relevant one for comparison to Geodude-A (and would also make this list much longer). I'm not going to claim that Eviolite Magnet Pull is a particularly good set, or even the best MagPull set (scarf is probably the best there too), but it's the most directly comparable.

• Magnemite has the far more useful Steel-typing, letting it check threatening Pokemon like Snivy, Foongus, and Shellder, while still working as an answer to Flying-types.
• Magnemite can take advantage of the popularity of its other sets to bluff an Analytic or SturdyJuice set, drastically altering how the opponent counterplays Magnemite, including but not limited to some people actively switching their Ferroseed into a Magnemite.
• Magnemite is still capable of trapping Pawniard nearly as effectively as Geodude-A, either by altering its spread on an eviolite set or by running an Electrium-Z set.
• Magnemite can guaranteed switch into Ferroseed to trap and kill it. Geodude-A is KOed by Knock Off followed by Bullet Seed as long as Bullet Seed hits 3 or more times (66.6% chance), and Geodude-A does not OHKO Eviolite sets with Fire Punch. This also obviously means that Geodude-A cannot set up Stealth Rock against Ferroseed unless it wants to potentially lose the 1v1.
• Magnemite is a generally better Vullaby answer, as Heat Wave is far, far less common than HP Grass. Magnemite also resists U-turn, unlike Geodude-A, taking very slightly less damage. It also resists Stealth Rock, meaning that it ultimately takes less chip damage from Vullaby and allowing Magnemite to check Vullaby more often.
• Magnemite has access to and makes fantastic use of one of the best moves in the tier in Volt Switch. While Geodude-A technically learns the move, it doesn't really have the space to spare for the move and does extremely little damage. Magnemite's Volt Switch is a legitimate damaging move.
• Magnemite has access to STAB Flash Cannon, giving it a way to OHKO Onix and deal a large amount of damage to Ground-types like Mudbray, meaning that in matches where Steel-types to trap aren't present Magnemite is still able to be an influence in the battle. This also goes for after the relevant Steel-types have been trapped and killed.

And that last point is the most relevant one, as Magnemite is still a useful Pokemon in general matchups. When Steel-types aren't present Magnemite still retains the ability to pivot around for momentum, utilize its strong STAB moves to lay waste to the opponent's team, and still work as a useful defensive answer to the opponent's threatening Pokemon. Geodude-A, meanwhile, is a slow Stealth Rock user who is hopeless against Ground-types. It doesn't even guaranteed OHKO Diglett with Superpower for god's sake (68.8% chance), and Superpower also barely does 2/3rds to BJ Onix. Mudbray, of course, is absolutely hopeless.

In short, by choosing to use Geodude-A over Magnemite you gain Stealth Rock access (which Geodude-A honestly has a difficult time setting up consistently as well as doing its trapping job) and a very slightly better Pawniard answer. In return you lose out on one of the top 20 best Pokemon in the tier (even doing a job that it's not outstanding at) with access to a pivoting move to help the rest of your team gain and keep momentum and ways to contribute in matches where the trapping job isn't particularly important.

The nomination post made a claim that some teams appreciate Geodude-A's qualities over Magnemite. I find myself not only hard pressed to figure out what teams appreciate using Geodude-A over Magnemite aside from ones that are designed in order to make chat proclaim the user a god, but also doubtful that there actually are teams that wouldn't be strictly improved by replacing the mon with an appropriate Magnemite set. If your team so badly needs a slightly better Pawniard trapper and needs to combine the role with a Stealth Rock user then honestly the team probably has issues beyond anything Geodude-A can fix.

A thank you to Corporal Levi for your help.

 

[Shrug]

all your points are mostly right and good, merritt. but there are very slight edges to geo-a that made me pick it and that make it a mon just valuable enough to include at the c- level. mag is obviously a better pokemon than geodude in nearly all respects, but it does have to choose between hidden powers. it cant run both fire and fighting and thus must pick whether it's disadvantaged against ferro or pawn. geodude can and should use both. I know fire punch doesnt knock out evio ferro, but id say that's a less common set, ferro is rarely unchipped, and even if you do 80-90%, the mon you need to set up can probably muscle through.

and i dont think it's correct that no teams appreciate geo-a, or that any team that requires trapping and rocks to be compressed into one set is fatally flawed. see my team against fatty. there's no mon that can be easily swapped out for a rocker. everything thats not geo-a has fast offensive presence (besides shellder, which sets up). your point that you're often choosing between traps or rocks - not getting both - is well-taken. it's probably right, though in that game i think i played cleverly enough to get the double. but the point of well-made geo-a teams is: the opp picks her poison. she either includes defensive steel-type checks to offensive mons (which are mag pulled off) or she includes softer checks in a variety of places (which are dealt with by getting rocks with geodude and leveraging the overload allowed by having 5 truly offensive mons instead of 4).

that is something geo-a allows that mag does not. and it's very specific! most teams dont need it. I wouldnt swap out the mag on that dcae team for a geo-a. I wouldnt tell a tutee to build a geo-a trap-and-go team like i might with mag and a scarfer. but when considered thoughtfully, geodude gives you the opportunity to built teams fully committed to overloading on certain threats (vulla and foongus anyone?) in a way that's valuable for high-level lc. which is why it should creep into the bottom ranks, i think.

 

[Merritt]

all your points are mostly right and good, merritt. but there are very slight edges to geo-a that made me pick it and that make it a mon just valuable enough to include at the c- level. mag is obviously a better pokemon than geodude in nearly all respects, but it does have to choose between hidden powers. it cant run both fire and fighting and thus must pick whether it's disadvantaged against ferro or pawn. geodude can and should use both. I know fire punch doesnt knock out evio ferro, but id say that's a less common set, ferro is rarely unchipped, and even if you do 80-90%, the mon you need to set up can probably muscle through.

and i dont think it's correct that no teams appreciate geo-a, or that any team that requires trapping and rocks to be compressed into one set is fatally flawed. see my team against fatty. there's no mon that can be easily swapped out for a rocker. everything thats not geo-a has fast offensive presence (besides shellder, which sets up). your point that you're often choosing between traps or rocks - not getting both - is well-taken. it's probably right, though in that game i think i played cleverly enough to get the double. but the point of well-made geo-a teams is: the opp picks her poison. she either includes defensive steel-type checks to offensive mons (which are mag pulled off) or she includes softer checks in a variety of places (which are dealt with by getting rocks with geodude and leveraging the overload allowed by having 5 truly offensive mons instead of 4).

I don't necessarily disagree with your points, but I'd prefer to expand on your game vs fatty since that seems to be a lot of the impetus for for your support. First though, I'd also like to add on a point that I forgot to mention in my previous post, namely what happens after the successful trap for both Magnemite and Geodude-A.

For some context, I firmly believe that taking advantage of the Pokemon who just successfully trapped and killed something is an essential skill in LC, way up there alongside playing with chip damage and foongus wars. Whether this is turning Diglett into setup fodder or a way to regain momentum by sending in Snivy or figuring out what exactly takes the most advantage from the Grimer-A killing your Abra, deciding how you'll retake an advantage is important. Similarly, ways for the opponent to prevent you from gaining said momentum back is important. Scarf Diglett is an excellent example in this scenario - while it offers very notable advantages over its Groundium counterpart it's also much easier to take heavy advantage of with your team due to its move lock.

So in a game where Geodude-A manages to get a kill, what it proceeds to do afterwards is still important. And honestly, Geodude-A doesn't do much in the way of retaking momentum - it invites in very threatening Pokemon like Snivy and Wingull and so often the best play (as you yourself made in your game) is to just let Geodude die. While this is probably still a net gain (particularly in the unlikely scenario that you manage to get rocks up as well as trap), it's still far worse than what Magnemite is still able to do. Magnemite invites in less generally threatening mons and even then lets you take back momentum far more easily because of what an amazing move Volt Switch is. I do touch on this in the last post where I discuss the steelless matchups, but Geodude-A really does put you in a mediocre position after the trap, where at most you can try taking back momentum with Geodude-A's death. Magnemite certainly doesn't stop you from letting it die for momentum, but the addition of a Volt Switch option can only be beneficial.

As for your team vs fatty, I'll mostly ignore the misplays and misclicks and just talk about your team composition.

I do not think your team needs Stealth Rock more than it would appreciate momentum from Volt Switch. Your team has a lot of relatively frail mons (or at least ones that don't want to take a hit) particularly since you have what I'm pretty sure is a scarf Snivy. Stealth Rock is nice and all, but a pivoting move seems like it'd benefit your team far more, allowing you to get in Pokemon like Abra and Wingull far more safely and continue keeping momentum. That to me seems far more valuable than Stealth Rock for that team. Magnemite also affords that team a better Foongus answer than predictions like a madman.

As for the game itself, Geodude-A only managed to get up rocks and still beat Pawniard because fatty decided that pursuit trapping Abra was more important than keeping Pawniard potentially alive. I don't really want to speculate on what ifs because there's so many ways for it to go, especially that early in the game, but I firmly believe that all else being equal you would have won that game more easily with a trapper Magnemite.